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*SPOILERS* Inception Thread of Dreaming a Little Bigger

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I've read most of the thread and haven't seen this brought up yet:

When they climb out of the van on level 1, what do the do with Fischer? Just leave him tied up for a week? :lol
 
CrayzeeCarl said:
I've read most of the thread and haven't seen this brought up yet:

When they climb out of the van on level 1, what do they do with Fischer? Just leave him tied up for a week? :lol
He swims out before all of them with his 'uncle'.
 
Finally saw this today and absolutely loved it. Trying to catch up with this thread but there's way too many posts at this point!

I'm of the opinion that the ending was reality and agree that the shot of the spinning top at the end was thrown in to mess around with our heads.

Some of the sequences in this film were stunning. I was a little annoyed because I saw JGL on Letterman before seeing this movie, so I heard him explain how they did the hallway shot. However I'm glad that the explanation didn't ruin that scene for me, it was still awesome! There were so many other impressive scenes in the film. One of the best for me was seeing Arthur wake everyone up in level 2 by stringing them all together in the elevator.


One side question: Did they ever explain why Cobb couldn't dream normally? I know they talked about how he used the devices to dream, but I'm not sure if they ever explained the reasoning behind why he couldn't dream without using the devices.

Hopefully I'll be able to watch the movie again on Friday. This is one of the first movies in a long time where I immediately want to see it again right away!
 
joesmokey said:
One side question: Did they ever explain why Cobb couldn't dream normally? I know they talked about how he used the devices to dream, but I'm not sure if they ever explained the reasoning behind why he couldn't dream without using the devices.

There's no scientific explanation or anything, but we're given the cause and effect when they go visit Yusuf and see the room with all the sleeping people having a shared dream.

They say "after a while, this is the only way you CAN dream anymore." I guess one of the primary problems people who utilize shared dreaming have is that if they do it too much, their body seemingly loses the ability to have dreams at night unaided (or at least, the body cannot remember having the dreams. But I believe the movie meant absolutely - as in they literally cannot dream.)
 
You know, I don't think I ever got an answer... If you can control dreams you know are dreams, why didn't Cobb screw around with limbo to demonstrate to Mal that it's not real? And why not demand she try and do the same thing to reality?
 
SickBoy said:
Agreed. I'm really surprised by how many people are obsessed with the kick and the levels (and concepts like the architect, for that matter), when I doubt any answers about the film are hidden within how those things work.
Its a logical exercise. Its like a problem to be solved. I didn't like the movie very much to begin with and my opinion hasn't changed even with all the arguing.
 
Amir0x said:
There's no scientific explanation or anything, but we're given the cause and effect when they go visit Yusuf and see the room with all the sleeping people having a shared dream.

They say "after a while, this is the only way you CAN dream anymore." I guess one of the primary problems people who utilize shared dreaming have is that if they do it too much, their body seemingly loses the ability to have dreams at night unaided (or at least, the body cannot remember having the dreams. But I believe the movie meant absolutely - as in they literally cannot dream.)

I took it as more of an addiction. Reality was no longer satisfying for those people, so their shared dream became their reality.
 
ZAK said:
You know, I don't think I ever got an answer... If you can control dreams you know are dreams, why didn't Cobb screw around with limbo to demonstrate to Mal that it's not real? And why not demand she try and do the same thing to reality?
To her, the manipulated world of Limbo was reality. Building and destroying the world was what they did for 50 years.
 
There's one thing that I don't really understand. How come when Fischer "dies" and goes into Limbo, Cobb & Ariadne go into Cobb's dreams to get him? Cobb's dreams = Limbo?
 
joesmokey said:
I'm of the opinion that the ending was reality and agree that the shot of the spinning top at the end was thrown in to mess around with our heads.
The one reason why I think he may still be dreaming is this : Saito is in limbo, picks up the gun and.... suddenly, Cobb wakes up on the plane. Twice before this movie had stated "do you remember how you got here?" to indicate still being in a dream. Saito wasn't even close to pointing the gun at himself. Cobb gets to the "real world" without the viewer clearly being shown the "how".

But then again the top kinda wobbled at the end, so who knows.
 
parasight said:
There's one thing that I don't really understand. How come when Fischer "dies" and goes into Limbo, Cobb & Aridne go into Cobb's dreams to get him? Cobb's dreams = Limbo?
Limbo is shared, Cobb had already built shit in Limbo, and Fischer was in Limbo.
 
ZephyrFate said:
Limbo is shared, Cobb had already built shit in Limbo, and Fischer was in Limbo.

But technically they aren't in Limbo, as they haven't died in the dream and simply went down another level (Cobb's dream)? Or am I wrong?
 
ZAK said:
You know, I don't think I ever got an answer... If you can control dreams you know are dreams, why didn't Cobb screw around with limbo to demonstrate to Mal that it's not real? And why not demand she try and do the same thing to reality?
they were doing just that though, problem is that she was in limbo they had accepted it as their reality for 50 years.
 
parasight said:
But technically they aren't in Limbo, as they haven't died in the dream and simply went down another level (Cobb's dream)? Or am I wrong?
They went down with Fischer as he died in the snow fortress level. HE is the subject.
 
Amir0x said:
They say "after a while, this is the only way you CAN dream anymore." I guess one of the primary problems people who utilize shared dreaming have is that if they do it too much, their body seemingly loses the ability to have dreams at night unaided (or at least, the body cannot remember having the dreams. But I believe the movie meant absolutely - as in they literally cannot dream.)
I guess this is the most they expanded on it in the movie; probably all we can take away from it.

LakeEarth said:
The one reason why I think he may still be dreaming is this : Saito is in limbo, picks up the gun and.... suddenly, Cobb wakes up on the plane. Twice before this movie had stated "do you remember how you got here?" to indicate still being in a dream. Saito wasn't even close to pointing the gun at himself. Cobb gets to the "real world" without the viewer clearly being shown the "how".

But then again the top kinda wobbled at the end, so who knows.
I like John Harker's explanation here: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=22444932&postcount=1829
 
Reposting edited version. Reasons why I think the ending is real. (aka why I don't have an Imagination). In a Premise > Rebuttal format.


1) The whole movie is a dream

Problems:
-God excuse: it can be used to explain anything. Something doesn't fit, it's just the dream
-The painstaking logic of them waking up on the top layer (Tokyo/Mombasa/Paris/747) seems to serve no purpose if it was all a dream.
-The weirdness doesn't extend to the top layer of this dream. But why?
- Why does Cobb have any motivations at all if his wife never committed suicide ?
-Who is the dreamer?
-If this mega-dream is being dreamed, there are too many moving parts. When Chris Nolan painstaking shows, not only a lack of weirdness on his top level reality, but the limits of the dreams the protagonists go into. (missing details, closed loops, etc.)
-The arc of the story is about Cobb, his guilt for planting the 'inception' of the idea that they can kill themselves in their paradise of Limbo (which he tired of) to go back to their real lives. In the process, he plants a virus in her brain that consumed her and made her kill herself in pursuit of a higher 'reality'. The movie is really about Cobb understanding where his reality is, his wife not understanding it, and finally his redemption as he vanquishes his guilt. If it was all a dream, there is no meaning to this motivation. Why should we care.


2) The 2nd half is a dream but not the first (aka Cobb never woke up in Mombasa)

Problems:
- The trip to Mombasa was not the first half, but the first third of the film. Nothing much is known about dreams and almost no narrative has been revealed. All the dream logic, have yet to be explained.
- Cobb dreaming the last two thirds of the film places all the important narrative and exposition in his dream.
-It fails to explain how the first third, with Saito in his castle, is neatly circled and tied up in the last act of the movie as Cobb revisits Saito in Limbo
-If it was Cobb dreaming, everyone else must be his projections (we only see Cobb go under)
- If all or many of his characters were his projections, he would have exceeded the levels of dreaming later established. Generally, either the entire dream logic is false or nothing happened.
- From a narrative point of view, this would be like ending a movie in the first act before anything is explained or achieved, as everything else is simply dreamed and not real. There is no functional point for the arbitrary ending other than the fact that it was a convenient point for proponents of 'it ended with a dream theory' to place their marker. Any later and their theory runs into other problems. (see #3)


3) Cobb remained in the real world until the final mission in the 747 where he failed and remained in Limbo, dreaming the ending (aka The Top didn't stop spinning argument)
Problems:
-Top very clearly wobbled. A spinning object that wobbles is slowing down, not maintaining its speed
-We saw the top wobble in a similar fashion from a long take, the very first time we see Cobb spin the top.
-Wobbling =! falling (it's claimed the top fell which created the wobbling sound. The top fell perhaps due to the van hitting the ocean floor - more on this later)
-The dream logic clearly establishes the layers of dream. Reality > Yusuf > Arthur > Fisher > Eames > Limbo.
- Cobb/Ariadne/Fischer all reached Limbo and Limbo was where he met Saito to become young men again, presumably either waking up or killing themselves in that dream to wake up.
-There is no further floor below limbo. The motivation of dying in Limbo as established earlier in the film's narrative with Cobb and Mal committing suicide on the train tracks is to return all the way up to reality.


3a)The kids didn't age and wore the same clothes therefore it must be a dream.

-There's little poof Cobb was away for a very long time
-Cobb is unable to see the faces of his kids in all of his dreams, including his constructed 'secret' dream filled with 'memories'. He sees their faces in the ending, and immediately walks away, confident he was back in reality. The top has lost its value as a totem.
*IMDB cast list has 2 versions of the children. With James aged 20 months and Phillipa aged 3 years. The faces of Phillipa we see at the ending is the Phillipa aged 5
-It's likely he was away for 2 years.


3b) The Van hitting the river floor caused the top to wobble

-If Cobb remained in Limbo (lvl 5) his body, what happened to the van in the 1st dream (lvl2) should have no effect on his reality. As the dream logic explains that only the physics of what is happening to the body on the level prior affects the experiences of the dream one level down
-Note: It was correctly pointed out that events significant enough can travel down multiple layers. This is shown in the 'kick' of the Van hitting the guardrail triggering the avalanche 2 layers down, but this seems to be the exception rather than the rule. Zero-G/tilting produced in Arthur's dream did not travel down to the ice fortress.
-If Cobb woke up all the day to reality (lvl1) but it is posited this is in fact still a dream, then whatever event that caused the top to wobble must have occurred one level up (level0) , a level we never saw and was never discussed in the film.

Random Bits:
Themes in Inception that steer me away from 'ending as a dream' or 'movie as a dream'

1) Dreaming as an addiction:
-The sleeping den in Yusuf's Mombasa hospice is for those who seek to 'wake up'. Reality has become to them an intolerable dream they need to escape from.
- Mal was similarly addicted and succeeded in remaining in Limbo until Cobb convinced her to wake up. Once in reality, she felt the same desire to escape, but with the illusion shattered, she is unable to consider going back to dreaming as a substitute. Mal decides to kill herself to truly 'wake up'
- Cobb is unable to dream due to the ghosts that haunt him or possible excessive use of dreaming to fight his inner demons.
-There ultimately is a reality that is inadequate for all these people.

2) Knowing reality as opposed to forgetting reality
- The characters sometimes 'forget' they are in a dream and require another character to 'right' them. Cobb momentarily forgets in the Ice fortress when he hesitates before shooting Mal. This require totems
- In Limbo, Saito/Cobb become each other's totems, completing a similar exchange they had previously. Saito has forgotten who he was waiting for (Cobb); and Cobb has forgotten the words they spoke.
-This leads to the final shot. . He initially spun the top to 'check' but Seeing his kids confirmed his reality. There was no need to use the top. He knew.They are his real totems.
 
Just got back from this and was thoroughly impressed. The movie was confusing yet made perfect sense. By fat one of the be myst movies I have ever seen. :D

Edit:
Here is my question, how did Cobb wash up on the beach again at the end before finding the old guy? Last we saw he was in their house. Did he die again in limbo?
 
I don't know if that has been mentioned before, but if the whole heist (if you will) was a dream, then what was with the suit cases in almost every level? Was that even necessary.. or possible?
 
As long as we're going over all the ridiculous specific ways in which it could be a dream, consider that dying in limbo doesn't wake you. I mean, think about it... the only evidence of this are the Cobbs. What if they just ended up in some sort of sub-limbo? The only information we really have about limbo at all is from their experiences, which are completely unreliable if we accept that they never really escaped it. So in this way, the whole movie is Cobb's crazy hallucination, yet we know why it started and have at least some background for some of the "real" characters and the world they lived in.

I'm not saying I think this is the correct interpretation (or even a good one, really), but if for some reason one insists on "it's all a dream," this seems like the most reasonable route.
 
Well, if we assume Fischer and Ariadne actually did hit the ground and die in limbo (which the movie did not seem cut to show, though perhaps this was to prevent added gore? Nolan REALLY could have let them get closer to the ground before cutting away), then there's really no problem. I enjoy the concept of the explosive charges being used to signal the limbo folk when to jump. It seems to work.

Here's another question: back when everyone was in Level 1, they were like, dude, there is no way we're going to survive here for a full week. We have to continue on.

Well, 10 Level 1 minutes later, everyone is swimming out of the van. Presumably, there is no way to signal to the Stewardess to kick them out, and so they'd have to wait until the timer expires in a Level 1 week.

How the fuck would they survive that long?
 
I watched the film tonight and I hate that Nolan put in that top at the end. It's a contrived and cheap gimmick for the sake of the audience. I feel like it's a disservice to the narrative and cheapens the main thrust of the movie which is Cobbs returning to his family.

I'll happily ignore the ending cut and pretend it never happened. It feels like Nolan didn't fully trust his film to stand on it's own. I don't think it was necessary and the impact of the ambiguity wasn't significant to the narrative. Just left a bitter taste in my mouth to know the director used a gimmick like that.
 
Feep said:
Well, if we assume Fischer and Ariadne actually did hit the ground and die in limbo (which the movie did not seem cut to show, though perhaps this was to prevent added gore? Nolan REALLY could have let them get closer to the ground before cutting away), then there's really no problem. I enjoy the concept of the explosive charges being used to signal the limbo folk when to jump. It seems to work.

Here's another question: back when everyone was in Level 1, they were like, dude, there is no way we're going to survive here for a full week. We have to continue on.

Well, 10 Level 1 minutes later, everyone is swimming out of the van. Presumably, there is no way to signal to the Stewardess to kick them out, and so they'd have to wait until the timer expires in a Level 1 week.

How the fuck would they survive that long?
Good point.
 
The length of this thread is pretty much proof that Nolan succeeded. I gave up trying to figure out the puzzle a few days ago, and my mind is finally at peace.
 
Feep said:
Well, 10 Level 1 minutes later, everyone is swimming out of the van. Presumably, there is no way to signal to the Stewardess to kick them out, and so they'd have to wait until the timer expires in a Level 1 week.

How the fuck would they survive that long?

Fischer's projections only became hostile once they kidnapped him. As long as they leave him and lay low, they probably wouldn't have to deal with anyone else.
 
parasight said:
But technically they aren't in Limbo, as they haven't died in the dream and simply went down another level (Cobb's dream)? Or am I wrong?

My theory is that, after a certain amount of levels, you are so far into the subconscious that it IS limbo. Remember, the only two facts stated on this in the movie:

-Cobb says he and Mal experimented with dreams within dreams
-Cobb is the ONLY one in the group to have experienced limbo

So, unless Cobb went under a heavy sedative and was killed (and this is not the case, as Yusuf's heavy sedative was new to him), after a certain level of dreams within dreams, you DO reach limbo.
 
So this morning, I had three dreams about this girl I really like from school. What's odd is that all three dreams took place at school.

I hate those dreams. You wake and feel pissed that it wasn't real. Now if you'll excuse, I'm going back to being depressed.
 
Jason's Ultimatum said:
So this morning, I had three dreams about this girl I really like from school. What's odd is that all three dreams took place at school.

I hate those dreams. You wake and feel pissed that it wasn't real. Now if you'll excuse, I'm going back to being depressed.
No depression. Eat two pints of ice cream, and wash it down with a couple white russians. Do that for breakfast. Ask her out that morning. :lol

Unless she is already with someone. Then the same thing applies except you have to beat him up first.
 
Jason's Ultimatum said:
So this morning, I had three dreams about this girl I really like from school. What's odd is that all three dreams took place at school.

I hate those dreams. You wake and feel pissed that it wasn't real. Now if you'll excuse, I'm going back to being depressed.
Never recreate from your memory!
 
Feep said:
Well, if we assume Fischer and Ariadne actually did hit the ground and die in limbo (which the movie did not seem cut to show, though perhaps this was to prevent added gore? Nolan REALLY could have let them get closer to the ground before cutting away), then there's really no problem. I enjoy the concept of the explosive charges being used to signal the limbo folk when to jump. It seems to work.

Here's another question: back when everyone was in Level 1, they were like, dude, there is no way we're going to survive here for a full week. We have to continue on.

Well, 10 Level 1 minutes later, everyone is swimming out of the van. Presumably, there is no way to signal to the Stewardess to kick them out, and so they'd have to wait until the timer expires in a Level 1 week.

How the fuck would they survive that long?

Originally, they had captured Fischer and his subconscious was trained to protect him. They kidnapped him, that's when his subconscious military protection team stepped in. Afterward, he was free when they left the van.
 
Feep said:
Well, if we assume Fischer and Ariadne actually did hit the ground and die in limbo (which the movie did not seem cut to show, though perhaps this was to prevent added gore? Nolan REALLY could have let them get closer to the ground before cutting away), then there's really no problem. I enjoy the concept of the explosive charges being used to signal the limbo folk when to jump. It seems to work.

Here's another question: back when everyone was in Level 1, they were like, dude, there is no way we're going to survive here for a full week. We have to continue on.

Well, 10 Level 1 minutes later, everyone is swimming out of the van. Presumably, there is no way to signal to the Stewardess to kick them out, and so they'd have to wait until the timer expires in a Level 1 week.

How the fuck would they survive that long?
They no longer mind dying as they know Cobb can just fish them out of limbo.
 
gamemadmax said:
I still don't understand why COBB refuse to see his children faces ?

Because they weren't his kids. Seeing recreations of them would probably be too upsetting for him, and he didn't want to go down the road his wife did.
 
One of the things that keep tripping people up.

Saito waiting in Mombasa was not accidental. Movie establishes it as Cobalt Engineering's backyard.

The movie doesn't go into the details on the politics involved, but it does appear while Saito owns the firm, he doesn't fully control it. So when asked what he would do with the first architect he responded 'nothing' but I can't speak for Cobalt engineering.

The same in Mombasa where he has to stop his own security forces from killing Cobb. And the 'protecting of his investment' he mentions is Cobb.


TOTAL UNRELATED BRAINWAVE
- I've been a strong proponent of the 'movie ends in reality' camp, but I think it's completely plausible the the entire movie save for the late bit was Saito's dream and they went in to save him from limbo. The goons in the top level reality were thus Saito's projections and Saito conciously have to protect them from dying so they could enter the deeper levels into Limbo.
 
Deku said:
One of the things that keep tripping people up.

Saito waiting in Mombasa was not accidental. Movie establishes it as Cobalt Engineering's backyard.

The movie doesn't go into the details on the politics involved, but it does appear while Saito owns the firm, he doesn't fully control it. So when asked what he would do with the first architect he responded 'nothing' but I can't speak for Cobalt engineering.

The same in Mombasa where he has to stop his own security forces from killing Cobb. And the 'protecting of his investment' he mentions is Cobb.


TOTAL UNRELATED BRAINWAVE
- I've been a strong proponent of the 'movie ends in reality' camp, but I think it's completely plausible the the entire movie save for the late bit was Saito's dream and they went in to save him from limbo. The goons in the top level reality were thus Saito's projections.
I don't think Saito works for Cobol. Cobol hired Cobb to steal something from the company Saito works for.

Still, theres nothing out of the ordinary with Saito appearing in Mombasa. He was obviously tracking where he was going, like you said "protecting his investment"
 
Dead said:
I don't think Saito works for Cobol. Cobol hired Cobb to steal something from the company Saito works for.
Correct. Saito's company is called Proclus. Cobol hired Cobb and co. to steal the idea for a new expansion from his mind.
 
Dead said:
I don't think Saito works for Cobol. Cobol hired Cobb to steal something from the company Saito works for.

Still, theres nothing out of the ordinary with Saito appearing in Mombasa. He was obviously tracking where he was going, like you said "protecting his investment"

Good one, this makes more sense. I just got confused and conflated cobol engineering with the unnamed firm Saito owns. He never did mention his company.

But wait... i thought Cobb mentions he went into saito's mind to steal cobol's expansion plans??
 
Dead said:
I don't think Saito works for Cobol. Cobol hired Cobb to steal something from the company Saito works for.

Still, theres nothing out of the ordinary with Saito appearing in Mombasa. He was obviously tracking where he was going, like you said "protecting his investment"

While I also firmly believe everything was real, Nolan definitely took great pains to show exactly how alike Cobb's situation was to a dream state, specifically through the Mombasa sequence. The overhead shot of the maze of the city, the walls literally closing in, etc.

Very well done.
 
Deku said:
Good one, this makes more sense. I just got confused and conflated cobol engineering with the unnamed firm Saito owns. He never did mention his company.

But wait... i thought Cobb mentions he went into saito's mind to steal cobol's expansion plans??
Maybe you misheard?

The music drowns out so much of the dialogue in the movie, its hard to understand a lot of spoken lines.
 
After a couple of days, something's bothering me: They kept talking about how unstable dreams become the deeper you go. In fact, some said a third level of dreaming was impossible because of the stability issue. In the movie, there was a train out of nowhere on the 1st level, there was wonky gravity on the second, and the third seemed perfectly normal. There was zero instability. The only out-of-the-ordinary thing that happened was Mal appearing, and that's not strange at all given how people bring their projections in with them.

It would have been much cooler, I think, if the people in the 3rd level were fighting the environment as much as the soldiers. Without any sort of weirdness, it just seemed like they shot an action sequence in the mountains.

I know the special heavy sedation was supposed to keep stability in all the levels, but that didn't exactly work with a freight train rolling down a street smashing cars in level 1, did it?
 
AVclub said:
After a couple of days, something's bothering me: They kept talking about how unstable dreams become the deeper you go. In fact, some said a third level of dreaming was impossible because of the stability issue. In the movie, there was a train out of nowhere on the 1st level, there was wonky gravity on the second, and the third seemed perfectly normal. There was zero instability. The only out-of-the-ordinary thing that happened was Mal appearing, and that's not strange at all given how people bring their projections in with them.

It would have been much cooler, I think, if the people in the 3rd level were fighting the environment as much as the soldiers. Without any sort of weirdness, it just seemed like they shot an action sequence in the mountains.

I know the special heavy sedation was supposed to keep stability in all the levels, but that didn't exactly work with a freight train rolling down a street smashing cars in level 1, did it?

Well, the freight train was one of Cobb's projections, so it's no different from Mal appearing in level 3. The zero-g in level 2 was the result of the van falling in level 1. I don't think those are the same thing as the dream becoming unstable. That would be like we saw in the opening where Saito's dream building was actually collapsing and falling apart around Cobb.
 
Saw the movie last night and absolutely adored it. Just spent the past few hours ignoring emails at work and catching up on this thread. Put me firmly in the "top fell, Cobb was in reality camp".
 
Mr. Snrub said:
I'd consider an avalanche to be a sign of instability.

That was due to outside influences such as the loss of gravity in the second level.

Instability is more like the dream breaking apart when Ariadne was freaking out at the cafe.
 
Zoe said:
That was due to outside influences such as the loss of gravity in the second level.

Instability is more like the dream breaking apart when Ariadne was freaking out at the cafe.

Okay, well if we're basing on the head of the dreamer: Eames was completely stable in and control for most of the snow assault. Or if you're basing it off of Fischer's subconscious, at that point, he truly believed in what he was doing.

But I interpreted it as the dreamworld itself being fragile/more susceptible to outside influences.
 
Zoe said:
That was due to outside influences such as the loss of gravity in the second level.

Instability is more like the dream breaking apart when Ariadne was freaking out at the cafe.
Yea, in that case, I think they quelled some instability issues by convincing Fischer he needed to go deeper. The bar scene was the last of his instability issues with the dreams, the Mr. Charles gambit paid off.
 
Deku said:
Good one, this makes more sense. I just got confused and conflated cobol engineering with the unnamed firm Saito owns. He never did mention his company.

But wait... i thought Cobb mentions he went into saito's mind to steal cobol's expansion plans??

According to Inception: The Cobol Job, Cobol is an energy company bidding on a contract from Fischer Morrow to build a pipeline across eastern Africa. They hire Cobb, Arthur and Nash to steal information regarding an expansion plan for a rival to Fischer Morrow, Proclus Global, from Saito, the president of that company, in order to ensure that they get preferential treatment from Fischer Morrow when they choose which company will build the pipeline.
 
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