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Square-Enix Executive Embarrassed by Company's E3 Showing

Ahoi-Brause said:
Did you even play the game?
Red Dead redemption is one of the most interactive games this generation, it's filled with awesome little details, secrets and generally surprising things.
The ammount of work that went into that game (and recently LA Noire) would probably be enough for 100 FFVII remakes.
How about you give me examples. It's filled with sidequests with the npcs? Ok other games have done that as well. It has those ghost towns you can find? Ok FFVII also has random off the beat things you can find like the town with Yuffie. So how is Red Dead some interactive game that goes beyond other games. Because it has tons of content that is basically the same thing? Besides were not exactly talking about content here. I'm sure tons of games have tons more content then FF. We're talking about how hard it would be for anyone to make a game world like old PS1 game in HD and the answer is there are many ways to do it. Some hard and some easy but may leave out other things.

Kalnos said:
You're grossly overstating how much you could actually explore in FF7's towns in comparison to Vesperia. Most of them were small areas with 4-5 houses and a few NPC's you could talk to. Maybe a chest or two. Costa del Sol, Kalm, Rocket Town, Nibleheim, etc. were all like this.
Except I'm not. Most area's in FFVII had at least 2 or three areas to them with as you say 4-5 houses you could go into. That alone is more hen ToV. Take for example the Guild City. About two areas with about 2 places you can go in freely.
 
Yottamol said:
You always have Dragon Quest for classic JRPGs.
It's too classic, though. It's not exactly what I hope for. I came of age during the FFVI, Chrono, VII era, and I always feel that my particular RPG tastes are never catered to anymore.

DQ is too devoted to 80s style gameplay and lighthearted fantasy fare storylines....

...while modern FF is too dedicated to abandoning classic RPG gameplay and always going full on "the fuck??" anime storyline.

I want 90s RPGs again! These 80s RPGs and 2000s RPGs are too far to the left and right of exactly what I want :P

I know... it's nice to want things :(
 
Rahxephon91 said:
How about you give me examples. It's filled with sidequests with the npcs? Ok other games have done that as well. It has those ghost towns you can find? Ok FFVII also has random off the beat things you can find like the town with Yuffie. So how is Red Dead some interactive game that goes beyond other games. Because it has tons of content that is basically the same thing?
I'll ask again: Did you play the game or just watch the gametrailers review?
Because I'm not going to explain stuff for you you'd noticed if you had actually played the game.
I'm not even going to talk about sidequests, poker and all the other minigames here.
Even the small details how little puddles form after rain, how marston actually gets drunk after a few drinks, how you can ring church bells by shooting at them, how characters that lay their legs on the table actually fall over when you shoot at them, how marston will silt characters throats if you hogtie them and kneel over them with a special animation, how vultures will eat dead animal (that can't be skinned after having been picked appart by vultures anymore) and npc, how you can actually track animals in the snow as they all have their distinctive footprings, how whistling will also attract animals other than your horse and will cause agressive npc in a gunfight to shoot in the general direction from where you whistled if they don't see you, then how your reputation influences the stuff marston says to other npc, how tumbleweed will react realistically if you shoot at it.
I could go on all day, but I don't feel like making the effort because you're either going to ignore this or weasle your way out of the argument in some kind of form anyways.

There's SO much detail in this game for the smallest of actions that a normal player wouldn't even notice. There's no snowboarding minigame and you can't find materia though MUST BE NON INTERACTIVE, huh?

What are you trying to prove by the way? I don't see anything about FFVII that would be impossible to achive by a skilled team with good management in about 2 years.
Especially with the budget and manpower that squaresoft has.


Are you somehow in denial that squaresoft is too dumb and missmanaged to pull it off and now no other developer is allowed to be more effiecient or else your image of the game industry breaks appart?
 
I'll ask again: Did you play the game or just watch the gametrailers review?
It shouldn't matter if I played it, you just keep jopding my points anyway. And if you want to see if I played it, just look up my gamer tag, it's Rahxephon91.

Because I'm not going to explain stuff for you you'd noticed if you had actually played the game.
Did you play the game? I sure noticed that the world was empty and a lot of it's content just was the same and reused things. I also did'nt care because thats what games do. Things have to be sacrificed to achieve the scale of something like Red Dead. World's no matter how detailed, can't have just one unique building that is never seen again. Side things are not going to be so special that it wont amount to doing something you've never done.

I'm not even going to talk about sidequests, poker and all the other minigames here.
Sidequests that are repetitive and the same thing? Yes I also believe FF has had tons of minigames as well.

Even the small details how little puddles form after rain, how marston actually gets drunk after a few drinks, how you can ring church bells by shooting at them, how characters that lay their legs on the table actually fall over when you shoot at them, how marston will silt characters throats if you hogtie them and kneel over them with a special animation, how vultures will eat dead animal (that can't be skinned after having been picked appart by vultures anymore) and npc, how you can actually track animals in the snow as they all have their distinctive footprings, how whistling will also attract animals other than your horse and will cause agressive npc in a gunfight to shoot in the general direction from where you whistled if they don't see you, then how your reputation influences the stuff marston says to other npc, how tumbleweed will react realistically if you shoot at it.
You realize that these things exist because this is new technology. Ok. So what your saying is that if something as big as FFVII is now remade in HD and follows current gaming standards it would have to have things like these right? Because that's what the quote regarding a FFVII remake is about. It's saying that if we made a remake up to current standards it wouldn't be easy. Why? Maybe because things like each town (and there are multiple towns in FFVII) would be hard to do. Why? Because each town is unique and has it's own style to it. So that make's re-using things more difficult, Red Dead dosen't have this problem because towns in real live can look the same. FFVII does because in fantasy land towns are supposed to have their own character. So doing that now is a bit more challenging. So you want all those details right? Well since it's an rpg there's going to be tons of party members and probably tons of unique and different enemies as well, and you want them all to have their own unique details and whatever all in hd. Ok yeah that dosen't sound super easy as well. Also since this remake has to be in current HD standards the towns and the like will probably have to be bigger and more detailed then they were because now things can be more detailed and if they aren't that's going to have points taken away on metacrtic. So now in this FFVII remake you have to have multiple towns that look very different then each other because they were in the original, they also need to be bigger and more detailed, because that's the standard, oh in keeping with the original you need to be able to go inside them, but probably to be imersreve the insides need to be a bit more interactive and detailed then they were before, but you can probably re-use items here so not a big deal. Also btw remember you need to have these areas be there on the players whim and not like idk LA Noire where you can only go into areas when the game allows you. Again this all sounds so easy. And that's the point here, making something like that is'nt easy. You use Red Dead as example and that game also took a very long time to make and was very costly. Add in the the problems with HD development in Japan and the quote makes sense and no it's not just because Sqaure sucks or is mismanaged, though that dosen't help. No it's because doing something like that is hard, like the fucking quote says.
I could go on all day, but I don't feel like making the effort because you're either going to ignore this or weasle your way out of the argument in some kind of form anyways.
You're describing yourself here. You throw Red Dead as example, a game that took very long to make, was costly, and had the scandal about Rockstar being slave drivers in order to finish it.
What are you trying to prove by the way? I don't see anything about FFVII that would be impossible to achive by a skilled team with good management in about 2 years.
Especially with the budget and manpower that squaresoft has.
Well two years would be fucking impossible. Red Dead did not take two years. FFXIII-2 is taking 2 years and it's re-using pretty much everything. The point is that the FFVII remake quote is true and that's true for anyone, not just Square, but everyone like you just want's to bash Square without actually thinking about what the quote really means.

Are you somehow in denial that squaresoft is too dumb and missmanaged to pull it off and now no other developer is allowed to be more effiecient or else your image of the game industry breaks appart?
No my view of the gaming industry is realistic. Hell you also used LA Noire as an example. A game that also took very long to come out, it's content also repetitive, and it's world incredibly detailed but seen as pretty pointless.
 
There is no chance in hell anyone could turn around a full, ground up FFVII remake with the production quality of FFXIII in two years flat from scratch.
 
DaBuddaDa said:
There is no chance in hell anyone could turn around a full, ground up FFVII remake with the production quality of FFXIII in two years flat from scratch.

The amount of time they suggested though I think is a bit ridiculous. I also find it interesting that we're talking about the prerendered backgrounds here, that you'd Imagine were all rendered in 3D beforehand. I guess only certain angles are needed though, so who really knows how much work went into it.

The point I am making though is we're actually comparing prerendered 3D models with real time 3D models.
 
They've been embarrassing all gen.
woah woah woah.

The World Ends With You was a shining light that illustrated that the appeal of Square, whether it be through sympathetic and engaging characters that one could develop a personal attachment to or innovative gameplay design, still exists somewhere.

In the heart of Jupiter?

Also, Birth by Sleep and the Dragon Quest remakes were generally quite well done. I think the competency of Square has really only been shown through the humble handheld and I'm just praying that this trend continues on the 3DS/ Vita despite the very egregious managerial issues. I think that Square has been at its best during this generation when it has been doing something truly different or changed its formula to avoid stick to clear archetypes (while Enix has continued to be conservative and reap the benefits?).

Otherwise? The criticism is very valid.

...

Sharing the TWEWY love since 2008.
 
Sir/ Miss kuro, forgive me.

But I do believe you have, perhaps, mispelt "Chrono Break" with Sakaguchi-brand Japanese super happy magic.
 
ULTROS! said:
I seriously don't want to play a Final Fantasy game that's marred with bugs and the main character having a personality similar to a rock! :P

If you want a near-Western Final Fantasy game, maybe FFXII is for you. I don't like it because it departed from the traditional(?) FF style but I know some people love it.
I've met rocks more charismatic than Lighting.
 
Anyone have the actual tweet from the guy? I'd heard the translation could be a misrepresentation, and I'd like to see it for myself.

Nevermind, found it (thanks Kotaku, of all places, for being the only ones to quote it).

E3最終日終了、最後のディナーに向かう。E3参加して以来、最もアウェイ感満載の年。アイドスと合併していた為、トゥームレイダー、Deus、Hitmanといったタイトルがあった為社としての外面は保てたが、和製タイトルの凋落は屈辱的なまで。どう立て直していくのか、毎日悩んだ一週間だった

It reads pretty much just like Anoop's translation, to my (dubious) interpretation, anyway.
 
Rahxephon91 said:
You realize that these things exist because this is new technology.
In FFXIII you could do none of those things and that game is also "new technology"
You're weasling arround.
Square is missmanaged and incompetent, end of story.
Maybe you enjoyed FFXIII, but that's your guilty pleasure.

I enjoyed Kane & Lynch 2, and that game is objectively shit.
 
UnblessedSoul said:
SE hasn't produced a single good FF game so far, ramming out more rubbish and delaying Versus only makes things worse
I can't believe we have more info on FFXIII-2 then VS.
Seriously that game has been in development for how long now?
 
Ahoi-Brause said:
In FFXIII you could do none of those things and that game is also "new technology"
You're weasling arround.
Square is missmanaged and incompetent, end of story.
Maybe you enjoyed FFXIII, but that's your guilty pleasure.

I enjoyed Kane & Lynch 2, and that game is objectively shit.
How am I weaseling around? I'm weaseling around because you have no argument? No I have replied to your points, you on the other hand have just made stupid comments like "anyone else could make FFVII in HD in two years" and when called out on that you just ignored it.

End of story my ass, you brought up the point that anyone could do such n such and that Kitase's quote meant the company sucked. I argued that it wasn't. You did'nt do squat.

No it's not a guilty pleasure. Don't ever fucking tell me what I like is as if you know me. It's a fine game, but that dosen't matter because none of this was about the quality of that game, but since you can't actually make an argument, sure attack XIII.

Whatever I'm done with you, it's obvious you don't have anything to add. Continue your Square bashing as this is really all you want to do.
 
I find it so strange that people are defending square here. Believe me I loved their output up to about PS2 as much as the next, but they really arent the same company anymore.

Level 5 <3
 
WHO actually owns who with this merger?
does square own enix or enix own square


it seems to me it all went to shit with the merger
FFX is the last pure "squaresoft" FF and weirdly its the last good one

X-2 = shit
XII = Offline MMO
XIII = no comment

its the merger i tells ya
 
Rahxephon91 said:
How am I weaseling around? I'm weaseling around because you have no argument? No I have replied to your points, you on the other hand have just made stupid comments like "anyone else could make FFVII in HD in two years" and when called out on that you just ignored it.
.
Yeah, my point is that a FFVII remake is quite possible only a company like squaresoft is incapable of doing it, because of the way how they missmanage their ressources.
Games like RDR and LAN are wider in scope than FFVII was.
I don't see any indication why FFVII would be so impossible like you keep on stating.
 
MrHicks said:
WHO actually owns who with this merger?
does square own enix or enix own square


it seems to me it all went to shit with the merger
FFX is the last pure "squaresoft" FF and weirdly its the last good one

X-2 = shit
XII = Offline MMO
XIII = no comment

its the merger i tells ya
Enix bought Square.

Also, FF13 is not far from being FF10 in new clothes, at least in terms of ideas.

As usual, it's silly to blame Enix for "ruining" Square. Whatever they did, they did to themselves.
 
MrHicks said:
X-2 = shit
XII = Offline MMO
XIII = no comment

I'm of the opinion that X-2 was pretty damn awesome. The scenario was pretty shitty and I really couldn't care less about most of the world and the things it was trying to bridge but the battle and dress system were almost perfect. Why SE didn't just roll with that is beyond me. Well maybe they did but whatever's in XIII's system that may resemble X-2 has been streamlined to death.
 
MrHicks said:
WHO actually owns who with this merger?
does square own enix or enix own square


it seems to me it all went to shit with the merger
FFX is the last pure "squaresoft" FF and weirdly its the last good one

X-2 = shit
XII = Offline MMO
XIII = no comment

its the merger i tells ya
X-2 and XI came out before the merger.
 
Rahxephon91 said:
X-2 and XI came out before the merger.
Don't fuck around here. XI is the most underappreciated MMO of all time and I am willing to sacrifice my body and soul to defend it. I hear people talk about features in WoW, Rift, other MMOs as if they're mindblowing, new things that FFXI was doing five years ago. Bring it, bitch!
 
Kong Fisso said:
haha omg, what is this? FF7 vs Red Dead Redemption? How does that even make sense?
Rahxephon91 was trying to make the point that no developer other than Squaresoft could deliver the interactive experience that FFVII was and cited Rockstar as not fit for the task because according to him RDR was empty and boring and not nearly as much work as a FFVII remake.
Of course it's a dumb point because Rockstar wouldn't even want to remake a jrpg in the first place, as they're busy with better selling games.
 
X-2 was the last good Final Fantasy, and the last one before the merger, but I find it hard to believe the merger is the source of their issues. FFXII was already in development hell at the time, which lead to FFXIII needing to switch platforms, which lead to an inflated production cost, which lead to a broader design intent, which lead to many of the issues with the game.

Although Versus XIII and Type-0 are taking forever to make, if they're both good, and I at least think Versus will be, I'll be happy.
 
MrHicks said:
WHO actually owns who with this merger?
does square own enix or enix own square


it seems to me it all went to shit with the merger
FFX is the last pure "squaresoft" FF and weirdly its the last good one

X-2 = shit
XII = Offline MMO
XIII = no comment

its the merger i tells ya

X-2 has the best battle system in the series. XII has the best world and art design.

So no.
 
Biggest problem for Square is that they have no new ideas. We are talking about FF 13 for goodness sake. They just don't have it anymore and should just accept that and axe the staff and put their money in their talented studios from Eidos. Tomb Raider, Deus Ex, etc. all looked very good at E3.
 
HocusPocus said:
Biggest problem for Square is that they have no new ideas. We are talking about FF 13 for goodness sake. They just don't have it anymore and should just accept that and axe the staff and put their money in their talented studios from Eidos. Tomb Raider, Deus Ex, etc. all looked very good at E3.
Not necessarily no new ideas, just no new ideas than can appeal widely (The Last Remnant), or ideas that are fumbled in execution (FF13).

I actually think they should be making more sequels (FF13-2, Dissidia 012—are there others?). Since these projects are cheap, but will bring in money, they can at least have revenue and then fund more daring games on the side.

Of course, it might mean we have to buy shitty games to fund good ones XD
DaBuddada said:
FFXIII was basically a game that took 5 years to make and only felt like it took 2 1/2 when playing it.
Gameplay took less than that, if the April 2009 demo and the final product are anything to go by. Most of the time was spent on engine and asset development.
 
HK-47 said:
X-2 has the best battle system in the series. XII has the best world and art design.

So no.

so only one aspect has to be good for the game to be good cool

well i guess then FFXIII isn't bad either cause it has awesome graphics

all those cool aspects to not matter when the rest of the combined package is shit
 
Aeana said:
Also, FF13 is not far from being FF10 in new clothes, at least in terms of ideas.
Completely disagree with that. The gap in interactivity between FF10 and FF13 is much much wider than between FF10 and any of the overworld FFs.
 
MrHicks said:
so only one aspect has to be good for the game to be good cool

well i guess then FFXIII isn't bad either cause it has awesome graphics

all those cool aspects to not matter when the rest of the combined package is shit

I think great visuals is the least compelling aspect of a video game beyond the initial experience. After that its all about the game world, characters or gameplay. Three of which I found very much lacking in XIII. Worst yet the over emphasis on the visuals of XIII seems to have hurt the game overall. So in that regard I would say that X-2 and XII are head and shoulders over XIII for not being completely shallow experiences.
 
by the time FFXIII's awesome graphics came out, there has already been several games that has blown them out of the water in terms of graphic, ie: Killzone 2, Uncharted 1 & 2...etc. So their game didn't do anything graphical wise, at least for me.
 
Zoe said:
They probably spent as much time, if not more, on creating Crystal Tools rather than the game itself.
In terms of man hours? Maybe, but that's irrelevant, it's not the same staff, it's not like people go from building a multithreaded engine to balancing battles etc.
 
StuBurns said:
In terms of man hours? Maybe, but that's irrelevant, it's not the same staff, it's not like people go from building a multithreaded engine to balancing battles etc.

It's difficult to do anything past forming the scenario though if you don't have working code.
 
Sage00 said:
Completely disagree with that. The gap in interactivity between FF10 and FF13 is much much wider than between FF10 and any of the overworld FFs.
The gap really isn't that large, and I certainly disagree that it's wider. There's Blitzball, and there are a few sparse town-like areas, but outside of that, the games are structured pretty similarly. If anything, FF10 is the stepping stone between the PSX FF games and FF13. I would invite you to replay FF10 if you haven't played it in a while.
 
Zoe said:
It's difficult to do anything past forming the scenario though if you don't have working code.
It was running on PS2, they had it working in some form for at least five years.

I think the game was quite poorly designed in a number of areas, but I don't think it's a result of the production running behind a schedule. They made a complex battle system and were too scared people wouldn't acclimatize to it quickly enough, so they make the first 24 hours very tutorial heavy.

As middling as FFXIII is, I don't actually think it's that far away from being great. There were just a few seriously bad decisions made over the course of development.
 
Sage00 said:
Completely disagree with that. The gap in interactivity between FF10 and FF13 is much much wider than between FF10 and any of the overworld FFs.

FFX was as linear as XIII, with the difference of being able to backtrack to most locations with the ship and the end of the game.

Other things may include more minigames and side dungeons and such, which X surpasses XIII,but in terms of interactivity both were pretty similar.
 
MrHicks said:
WHO actually owns who with this merger?
does square own enix or enix own square


it seems to me it all went to shit with the merger
FFX is the last pure "squaresoft" FF and weirdly its the last good one

X-2 = shit
XII = Offline MMO
XIII = no comment

its the merger i tells ya
If you want to place blame, former CEO Hisashi Suzuki is usually the scapegoat for both deciding that Square should ignore its 2nd tier franchises and milk FF for all its worth because "middle-rank games are no longer selling" (and at one point in 2002 there were 23 FF games in production at the same time), and causing the company to go under financially that caused the merger. Square never really recovered from that.
 
StuBurns said:
What does that mean?
While they might have established the idea of queuing commands and the Break meter before the demo, from the lists of commands in the demo it looks like they didn't establish the Paradigm Shift system until after (i.e. one character can use both black and white magic without shifting roles). The meat and the fun of 13's system lies in Paradigm Shift. More than that, Toriyama himself admitted in the post mortem published in Game Developer Magazine that his team had no idea what they were doing until after the demo was made:
What enabled us to conquer this line of seemingly endless conflicts was the development process for the Final Fantasy XIII demo, which was included in the Japan-only Blu-ray version of the animated film Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children Complete. The demo was not in our original plan, so we had to make adjustments to the overall schedule to accommodate it. Whatever effects creating the demo had on the schedule, once it was complete we realized it was just the panacea we needed.

With a tangible version of the game that could actually be played, internal debates transitioned from theoretical discussions based solely on abstract concepts to concrete dialogue.
FF13's gameplay consists largely of the battle system, and maybe walking around. That's why I said most of the 5 years were spent on engine and asset development; I think 1 and a half is about what they spent on actual gameplay.

Considering that they managed to do a lot more gameplay in 1 and a half years for X-2, it's kind of pathetic how disoriented and disorganized they were for XIII.
 
dramatis said:
Gameplay took less than that, if the April 2009 demo and the final product are anything to go by. Most of the time was spent on engine and asset development.

StuBurns said:
What does that mean?

Well for one the paradigm system was only added after they did the demo and realised it was too barebones a system and they needed something that involves more strategy...
It's kind of baffling to have the battle system finalised only after such a long development...

EDIT: Didn't realised I was like 1 hr late with this post...
 
entrydenied said:
Well for one the paradigm system was only added after they did the demo and realised it was too barebones a system and they needed something that involves more strategy...
It's kind of baffling to have the battle system finalised only after such a long development...

EDIT: Didn't realised I was like 1 hr late with this post...
How do you know when the system was introduced?
 
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