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[jaundicejuice]

Isn't Wada driving Square-Enix to make yet another MMO? Even with Final Fantasy XIV being an absolute trainwreck?

 

[Nirolak]

maybe now they'll stop taking fucking forever to put out games

aka

finish vs13 and whatever the fuck else youre working on get the fuck to work on Kingdom Hearts 3

and make some new shit too.

FFXIII-2 seems on track to finish within its 18 month dev cycle, so they seem to be getting there on that front.

Quality across most of the board is the other glaring issue though.

Also, the tendency to dump any well received but financially unsuccessful new IPs in favor of more FF spin-offs isn't helping.

They have to understand that new IPs don't always take off on the first go, but only grow when you keep investing in them.

 

[lantus]

What Japanese game was worth showing in E3 this year?

Catherine?

DARK MOTHERFUCKING SOULS

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Let's hope they fix the problem.

 

[Yoshiya]

Can you fix my quote ala my edit so I don't come across so tired? lol

Done, haha.

 

[VisanidethDM]

You must be joking or are high.

I disagree.

What SE needs to do, imho, is ride the decline of the JRPG genre.

That doesn't mean abandoning the FF multimillion sales colossi, but acquiring external talent to develop and publish a range of "low" budget, 2D based JRPGs that can be profitable without needing 3 million sales and 5 years in development.

We were buying 4, 5, 8 JRPGs a year in the SNES/PS1 era. One every X years was FF. The rest where the Grandias, the Thousand Arms, the FFT, the Lufias, the Chronos, the army of different franchises constantly released.

Now they're obsessed with the FF mentality, which dictates them to release a title that is technically at the top of the current production values pyramid. Fuck that. That's FF. Create a 2.5D isometric engine, acquire all the small studios, new and old, that have good ideas or traditions in the JRPG genre, and put them to work. If the budget is low enough or you're afraid the title won't sell well.. put it on the XBLA/PSN/

Spoiler

Steam/AppStore

.

You need to rebuild the Japanese videogame industry? Start from the basics. The genres that worked 15 years ago can still work today. Realize we only buy FPSes because we're only sold FPSes. We're starving for more RPGs. Keep the budgets in check, and you'll start making money again.

 

[lantus]

IIRC didn't Wada come out right after Final Fantasy XIII shipped and say ridiculous development times is their number one problem? How long has it been since he said that? Yeah, they seem to acknowledge their problems all the time, but never seem to do anything about it.

 

[Yoshiya]

Also, the tendency to dump any well received but financially unsuccessful new IPs in favor of more FF spin-offs isn't helping.

TWEWY and Nier

Well, Nier was hated by most of the western press but it has a pretty damn devoted fanbase both inside Japan and out.

 

[Tron 2.0]

FFXIII-2 seems on track to finish its 18 month dev cycle, so they seem to be getting there on that front.

Not really a great example. Though I guess it'd be even worse if a game made largely from recycled assets took six years to make.

But considering that every other major title coming from SE that I can think of has been in development 3+ years (some like Versus and Type-0 more like six years), one game does not a trend make.

 

[Combichristoffersen]

I feel his pain.

I don't give a hoot about what Eidos are offering (maybe except for the new Tomb Raider), and SE had.. what, FF XIII-2 as their only Japanese showcase?

 

[Salsa]

DARK MOTHERFUCKING SOULS

ah, gotcha

true, that sucks :/

 

[Yoshiya]

That doesn't mean abandoning the FF multimillion sales colossi, but acquiring external talent to develop and publish a range of "low" budget, 2D based JRPGs that can be profitable without needing 3 million sales and 5 years in development.

FFXIII sold over 6 million, and the budget wasn't that ridiculous. What they are doing now might not be optimal, but it's still profitable.

 

[ULTROS!]

What Japanese game was worth showing in E3 this year?

Catherine?

and Dragon's Crown.

 

[Seda]

Done, haha.

Thanks!

 

[DatBreh]

You must be joking. Hardly everyone would be happy with that.

Umm no. HD Sprites and making games in the old ways where it was an actual RPG instead of a long tunnel would be highly preferred to what FF XIII was.

 

[Rahxephon91]

I disagree.

What SE needs to do, imho, is ride the decline of the JRPG genre.

That doesn't mean abandoning the FF multimillion sales colossi, but acquiring external talent to develop and publish a range of "low" budget, 2D based JRPGs that can be profitable without needing 3 million sales and 5 years in development.

We were buying 4, 5, 8 JRPGs a year in the SNES/PS1 era. One every X years was FF. The rest where the Grandias, the Thousand Arms, the FFT, the Lufias, the Chronos, the army of different franchises constantly released.

Now they're obsessed with the FF mentality, which dictates them to release a title that is technically at the top of the current production values pyramid. Fuck that. That's FF. Create a 2.5D isometric engine, acquire all the small studios, new and old, that have good ideas or traditions in the JRPG genre, and put them to work. If the budget is low enough or you're afraid the title won't sell well.. put it on the XBLA/PSN/

Spoiler

Steam/AppStore

.

You need to rebuild the Japanese videogame industry? Start from the basics. The genres that worked 15 years ago can still work today. Realize we only buy FPSes because we're only sold FPSes. We're starving for more RPGs. Keep the budgets in check, and you'll start making money again.

But the post was particularly saying that FF games should be low budget 2d affairs. I'm sorry, I don't want FF to be that. FF is the big spectacle JRPG series and it should stay that way. Should they work on other non-ff tiles that experiment with different things and work on different budgets. Maybe even FF off shots should do that as well and they already do like 4 Heroes of light. But not main numbered FFs.

Umm no. HD Sprites and making games in the old ways where it was an actual RPG instead of a long tunnel would be highly preferred to what FF XIII was.

Yes because 2d sprites are going to allow the game to be successful. Even Capcom knows that's not true. And hardly everyone want's 2d sprites, just a small minority.

 

[Grinchy]

As much as I want to post some biting remark about how awful the company has handled its Japanese IPs, the fact that someone high up in the company is acknowledging that he's not happy about it either makes me root for them instead. As one of the mods here can tell you, it's not easy for a Japanese man to show humility like this.

 

[bone_and_sinew]

Well, at least we now know they're capable of feeling shame. It's a start.

 

[Tron 2.0]

Isn't Wada driving Square-Enix to make yet another MMO? Even with Final Fantasy XIV being an absolute trainwreck?

MMOs are now make up the largest fraction of the gaming sector in Japan. Nirolak posted a link in another thread.

 

[Terrell]

Square Enix needs to go back and see what they have done that has made people excited to buy their products.
My love of Final Fantasy has finally declined to the brink of death, and that's all they really want to focus all their attention on.

What made Square and Enix so exciting in the PS1 era? Taking risks on interesting and fresh IPs and fundamentally changing the way we look at the genres they specialized in. THIS is the era in their history where they were at the top of their game, and it's been a downhill slide since.
The only times they've roused public interest again are in areas where they made other fundamental changes to the type of content they release.... a good example is the stuff they released in the downloadable games sector, like Chaos Rings and such. A break from the big, showy and hollow bullshit they're known for now is exactly what people have wanted from them, and people gave a shit about it.

My 2 cents though.

 

[VisanidethDM]

FFXIII sold over 6 million, and the budget wasn't that ridiculous. What they are doing now might not be optimal, but it's still profitable.

I don't think they're embarassed by FF, I think they're embarassed by everything else.

 

[Nirolak]

Not really a great example. Though I guess it'd be even worse if a game made largely from recycled assets took six years to make.

But considering that every other major title coming from SE that I can think of has been in development 3+ years (some like Versus and Type-0 more like six years), one game does not a trend make.

I think why it's notable though is that it's their blueprint for future development.

They're switching all teams to two year development cycles after the first entry in their new IP/new spin-off.

They've shown they can successfully sequel on PSP with Dissidia 012, and now they're showing it with FFXIII-2.

Of course, the quality for FFXIII-2 has to be there for it to be truly successful, but even just getting the game out on time is a big improvement if this is their vision for the future.

 

[Celine]

What Japanese game was worth showing in E3 this year?

Catherine?

Excluding Nintendo?

 

[nemesun]

First step to solving a problem, is admitting you have one.

Second step is to make another MMO.

 

[DatBreh]

But the post was particularly saying that FF games should be low budget 2d affairs. I'm sorry, I don't want FF to be that. FF is the big spectacle JRPG series and it should stay that way. Should they work on other non-ff tiles that experiment with different things and work on different budgets. Maybe even FF off shots should do that as well and they already do like 4 Heroes of light. But not main numbered FFs.


Yes because 2d sprites are going to allow the game to be successful. Even Capcom knows that's not true. And hardly everyone want's 2d sprites, just a small minority.

People thought 2d fighters were dead, and now Capcom cant seem to put them out fast enough.

It would not hurt them at all to put out a game in the same vein as the ones that made them popular in the first place. It wouldnt take that long, that many people, or that much money. Just do it once to see if the market is still there, they may find out it is, just as Capcom did with 2d fighters.

 

[Salsa]

Excluding Nintendo?

heh, yes

 

[Tron 2.0]

I think why it's notable though is that it's their blueprint for future development.

They're switching all teams to two year development cycles after the first entry in their new IP/new spin-off.

They've shown they can successfully sequel on PSP with Dissidia 012, and now they're showing it with FFXIII-2.

Of course, the quality for FFXIII-2 has to be there for it to be truly successful, but even just getting the game out on time is a big improvement if this is their vision for the future.

Getting games out on a reasonable development schedule would be a huge step forward for SE.

But won't that just exacerbate their reliance on iterating the same IP over and over?

 

[Rahxephon91]

People thought 2d fighters were dead, and now Capcom cant seem to put them out fast enough.

It would not hurt them at all to put out a game in the same vein as the ones that made them popular in the first place. It wouldnt take that long, that many people, or that much money. Just do it once to see if the market is still there, they may find out it is, just as Capcom did with 2d fighters.

I did'nt know Capcom games had sprites these days.

I'm not talking about gameplay. If thats what you want they have Type 0.

 

[IchigoSharingan]

Is it really about showing games? Or is it more that the games they launch even after such long dev cycles are utter crap too often?

 

[Momo]

First step to solving a problem, is admitting you have one.

Glad they have

 

[Ozzykamikaze]

Maybe you should have started on Just Cause 3, then you would have been the winner of the show.

You're working on FFXIII-2 ffs, you deserve to be embarrassed.

 

[Mark-Bozon]

Maybe Inafune and Itagaki were right.

The Japanese game industry is behind.

There's no question. Things have changed in a big, BIG way in the last 5-10 years or so.

 

[bobbytkc]

Square is absolutely pathetic this gen. They have released a grand total of 1 HD Jrpg on the PS3 in the last 5 years. 1! They are a huge company. I don't know where their development resources are funneled into, but they better wake up soon.

They just need to put out the games. A whole generation has gone and they barely capitalised on their huge store of IPs.

 

[Nirolak]

Getting games out on a reasonable development schedule would be a huge step forward for SE.

But won't that just exacerbate their reliance on iterating the same IP over and over?

Generally the way companies try to handle this is by introducing around one to two new major IP a year while iterating on everything else.

Since Square Enix is also a major handheld studio, they could probably introduce three new ones, one on consoles, and then two on handhelds.

This way they have an easier ability to drop an IP or two if things go awry without literally being back where they started.

Also, I would count successfully resurrecting dead brands as being pretty similar to adding new IPs.

 

[DatBreh]

I did'nt know Capcom games had sprites these days.

I didnt think it would be that hard to get the gist of what i was saying. So let me try it a little simpler for you.

- People thought 2d fighting games were dead.
- Capcom made a 2d fighter
- Raging success
- Now there are 2d fighters being released left and right

 

[Seda]

Square is absolutely pathetic this gen. They have released a grand total of 1 HD Jrpg on the PS3 in the last 5 years. 1! They are a huge company. I don't know where their development resources have funneled into, but they better wake up soon.

One of their teams also made Last Remnant, I realize the way you worded your post accounts for this, but a grand total of 2 console RPGs is sad .

 

[Rahxephon91]

I didnt think it would be that hard to get the gist of what i was saying. So let me try it a little simpler for you.

- People thought 2d fighting games were dead.
- Capcom made a 2d fighter
- Raging success
- Now there are 2d fighters being released left and right

You do realize that I'm talking about the 2d visuals part of your post, not the gameplay right?

 

[Momo]

We should all just blame coble stone girl

 

[Tron 2.0]

Generally the way companies try to handle this is by introducing around one to two new major IP a year while iterating on everything else...

Thanks. That makes sense.

 

[DatBreh]

You do realize that I'm talking about the 2d visuals part of your post, not the gameplay right?

But the overall point i was making is go with the older style final fantasy and not the super HD follow the tunnel type of game they made with 13. They can use sprites, polygons, or whatever but go back to the old style where i could actually explore towns and cities, have a huge map where i am free to go wherever, etc.... Sprites was just a suggestion that you got hung up on.

 

[Rahxephon91]

But the overall point i was making is go with the older style final fantasy and not the super HD follow the tunnel type of game they made with 13. They can use sprites, polygons, or whatever but go back to the old style where i could actually explore towns and cities, have a huge map where i am free to go wherever, etc....

Yes and they have that, it's called Type 0....

And by free to go wherever you want, I assume you mean free to go after like 20 hours+.

 

[runlikehell]

I'll still buy into their shit like a battered wife.

 

[UberTag]

Solution: Square Enix Japan should stop developing pseudo-Western games.

If anything, the changes they're making to Final Fantasy XIII-2 will make it into even more of a pseudo-Western game than before. We're applauding them for it so one can understand how they'd have trouble reading between all of the mixed messages.

I'd kindly direct them to a polished current-gen JRPG effort to get pointers from but alas Nintendo can't be bothered to bring those over so clearly that well has run dry.

I wouldn't lavish too much praise on the Eidos efforts, either. Deus Ex is getting largely panned by the media (comparisons to Obsidian-developed titles are never a good thing), Tomb Raider is still 18 months away and Hitman has a very pretty trailer.

They have to understand that new IPs don't always take off on the first go, but only grow when you keep investing in them.

Clearly you want a sequel to that multi-million selling title NIER.

 

[[Nintex]]

Koji Taguchi, a senior executive officer at Square Enix Holdings, posted the following at Twitter on the final day of the show: "Because we merged with Eidos and had games like Tomb Raider, Deus and Hitman, as a company we were able to keep face. But the decline in Japanese titles was almost humiliating. This has been a week where I worried daily about how we can fix this."

So this the start of the mutiny against Yoichi Wada?

 

[DatBreh]

Yes and they have that, it's called Type 0....

And its not a console game.

 

[VisanidethDM]

Is it really about showing games? Or is it more that the games they launch even after such long dev cycles are utter crap too often?

Are we now gonna argue that massive sales are based on quality?

I think WRPGs are (for the most part) in an equal if not greater state of decline in terms of quality, yet they sell like hotcakes. Because they're self-aware. They know what they're doing, and thus they find an audience.

I think the core problem here is in the nature of the games S-E is releasing, even before the quality. They see Bethesda selling millions of units of FPS-pretending-to-be-RPGs, they see Bioware doing the same, and think they need to reinvent the wheel at every release.
They also seem to be hell bent on making every new FF release cross the boundary between steampunk and sci-fi even more, and they're sort of missing the train that From Software and Capcom among others have catched.

The problem at S-E is probably in the management. Once again, they're desperately trying to shock their audience at every release, greenlighting the most absurd projects and probably canning everything traditional. The entire japanese market is like that. So we ultimately get roleplaying games about shop-keepers, Risk-inspired RPGs about guys with guns and mechs in a floating city that have no story but an elaborate dress-porn system, roleplaying games about 19th century musicians and all that stuff, but we didn't see a traditional, "sane" JRPG on an home console since forever. The closest thing was Lost Odyssey, a terrible, terrible JRPG we all loved because it was the only fucking thing we got in years.
Even lauded Wii entries like the Last Story and Xenoblade are MMO-mock up games.

Is it possible that one of the most popular genres in the 90s is relegated to be less than niche just 10 years later? Or are japanese developers fueling a self fulfilling prophecy by not believing in a genre that could have a legitimate audience?
Because if we're not getting a new Grandia or a new Breath of Fire because Eternal Sonata or Atelier Whatevertheshit didn't sell enough, well, guys, the problem wasn't the genre there.

 

[aparisi2274]

I'll agree with their statements.

I just came back from the expo and their booth was so barren. It had the following games:

FF13-2
Deus Ex
Tomb Raider
Wakfu

I dont think I even saw a 3DS game...

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

I want squaresoft back.

 

[Augemitbutter]

tactics ogre was the best game they released in 10 years, only matsuno can save them. bring him back full force with the next ogre something game.

 

[Rentahamster]

Damn right they should feel embarrassed. They're whole design philosophy, coupled with bad management has made them a joke. I'm one of the only users on GAF who still bothers to play FF14, and the problems they have as a game company are still glaringly obvious in that game, 8 months after release.

At least they recognize they have a problem...