Support NeoGAF

[Johann]

Helping SE with FFXIII so they can finish FF:Versus in time for 2012.

Isn't the Versus team helping out with FFXIII? So... is Ritual Entertainment working on Versus?

1997 - 2002 just proves that you can make high budget AAA games in shorter time spans. What happened?

They had multiple teams working concurrently on different Final Fantasy installments. I imagine that FFXII's delay-a-thon and the demands of HD gaming haven't made that development model viable. Just a single Final Fantasy main installment needs so much people working on it.

 

[RevenantKioku]

Installed on 360 it is still shit, but damn it is much much improved on PC. Finally started it this weekend after giving up on 360 version.

That's just goddamned infactual! I had no problem with the 360 version once installed, by garnit.

 

[The Hermit]

 

[Yazus]

They had multiple teams working concurrently on different Final Fantasy installments. I imagine that FFXII's delay-a-thon and the demands of HD gaming haven't made that development model viable. Just a single Final Fantasy main installment needs so much people working on it.

Than do this again. They had multiple teams working on different FFs? Plus another team working for new IPs/Games like Vagrant Story/Xenogears/Chrono Cross etc?
Than do this again. Multiple teams for multiple FFs + another team for the rest stuff

 

[Aeana]

I think Square Enix problem is that they are just maing too many games at the same time.

I mean remember when SE was developing all that DS ports/chocobo stuff + Crisis Core + Dissidia + FFXIII + FFXIII Versus + FF Agito XIII + Crystal Bearers + Echoes of Time + Last Remnant

The fuck?

How many fucking teams they have? Just have two or three of them and focus on the mainstream sagas (FFXIII, DQ and new IP/Spinn Off) alternating them like this
-1 Year: New IP/Spinn off
-2 Year/3 Year: DQ
-4/5 Year FFXIII

All of their DS stuff is handled by external teams. Dragon Quest is, as well.

 

[darkhunger]

1997 - 2002 just proves that you can make high budget AAA games in shorter time spans. What happened?

HD games happened.

For example, as SE has been explaining so much recently, back then they had one person handling cutscene direction and another guy handling the scripting, whereas they now need a whole department to do the same in order to keep the cinematic quality of the games.

Than do this again. They had multiple teams working on different FFs? Plus another team working for new IPs/Games like Vagrant Story/Xenogears/Chrono Cross etc?
Than do this again. Multiple teams for multiple FFs + another team for the rest stuff

The problem is that back then if they had a 100+ person team they could do a AAA game in 2-3 years, whereas now if they have a 100+ person team they need twice the time.

Plus the revenue is not increasing, since game prices have not increased much (worldwide) in the last ten years, and neither has the market for JRPGs. So you have ballooning costs, and revenue that does not increase. Its a no-win situation for SE.

 

[Mamesj]

"We make too many shitty Finar Fantashy Sheven spinuff and other pointress burrshit because we keep hinting to fans that we are going to finarry rerease a Croud and Sephiroth buttsecks simurator-- with One Winged Angerybuttsecks playing in the background-- so that the closet animu porn freaks buy in hopes of finary having their dreams granted, but it makes us the monies and therefore it takes us too rong to make the games that people actually want rike FFXIII."

Fixed.

 

[Kittonwy]

1997 - 2002 just proves that you can make high budget AAA games in shorter time spans. What happened?

They had several different teams back then, IX wasn't the same team as VII, not to mention as you move from the PS1 era to the PS2 era, the amount of assets you have to make and the quality of the assets increase dramatically, this is even worse when it comes to HD game development, you either hire a shitload more people or it will take you longer, if you let the budget balloon to a crazy level and your game doesn't sell, you're essentially done.

 

[Urban Scholar]

Yoichi Wada: Yes - that's what I hope to achieve for the entire group. But we at Square Enix also have a problem - it takes too long for us to produce a game...

Dot dot dot

well yeah Mr. Wada

 

[Tiktaalik]

Stop making overly bloated 70 hour games, cut that shit in half.

Yeah this is probably a good idea.

 

[bumpkin]

Well if they'd stop changing the entire battle and inventory management systems every fucking game, they might not have this problem. :lol

 

[ShockingAlberto]

It also takes way too long for you to localize games.

 

[JudgeN]

Technology advancement happened.

For example, as SE has been explaining so much recently, back then they had one person handling cutscene direction and another guy handling the scripting, whereas they now need a whole department to do the same in order to keep the cinematic quality of the games.

Fixed

720p didn't cause SE problems, the franchises own quality cause its problems.

 

[TheOddOne]

They should visit ND and insomniac, they know how to produce good games fast.

Well thats a opinion. (Most of) Jap developers are stuck in the ps2 era. Every game released is just a rehash of every jrpg made in ps2 era with better grafics. Developers like Platinum games are the only ones that try to do something new instead of a sequal/reboot/remake. New and original content please.

 

[Wilsongt]

It would also help if they didn't announce games so damn early in the development cycle. I think most people realize that after a major release is done at Square-Enix, they are already busy working on the next title. Showing a trailer for FFXIII at E3 2006 before FFXII was even released in America was a pretty dick move to begin with. The same goes for all of the Kingdom Hearts titles currently in development.

Other companies generally wait until the year they are going to release title, or at least until a product is 50 - 75% finished. Thus why the wait for games like Persona or other games doesn't seem as painful.

 

[Durante]

TLR isn't really comparable. Even if you take away all the technical problems (or at least most of them by running it on a modern PC) you only need to watch a single cutscene to see the vast difference in invested time (and, it has to be said, resulting quality) compared to a FF game.

the franchises own quality cause its problems.

I think this is a good way to put it.

Well if they'd stop changing the entire battle and inventory management systems every fucking game, they might not have this problem.

Maybe, but -- just as with suggestions of reducing the amount or quality of the content -- they could well lose what makes FF the most successful console JRPG franchise worldwide by doing so.

 

[Die Squirrel Die]

It would also help if they didn't announce games so damn early in the development cycle. I think most people realize that after a major release is done at Square-Enix, they are already busy working on the next title. Showing a trailer for FFXIII at E3 2006 before FFXII was even released in America was a pretty dick move to begin with. The same goes for all of the Kingdom Hearts titles currently in development.

Other companies generally wait until the year they are going to release title, or at least until a product is 50 - 75% finished. Thus why the wait for games like Persona or other games doesn't seem as painful.

In fairness Final Fantasy is one of those franchises that has such a profile that there is an unusually high pressure on SE to show it, particularly when there's a generational leap involved. Consumers (and other developers I suspect) look to the game to provide some direction as to where they think the generation is going.

This is definitely not to downplay its quality, but a series like Persona isn't in the same position.

 

[darkhunger]

Fixed

720p didn't cause SE problems, the franchises own quality cause its problems.

Right, the franchise's strive to stay ahead of the pack caused this problem because HD development for the average game is already too expensive for any publisher to try to stay ahead of the pack. So HD gaming is at fault too, you see? Does that make any sense? :lol

 

[Askia47]

Right, the franchise's strive to stay ahead of the pack caused this problem because HD development for the average game is already too expensive for any publisher to try to stay ahead of the pack. So HD gaming is at fault too, you see? Does that make any sense? :lol

Maybe if SE approached development like Capcom things would be better. HD games are working well for them. It depends on how you use your resources.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Well if they'd stop changing the entire battle and inventory management systems every fucking game, they might not have this problem.

Maybe, but -- just as with suggestions of reducing the amount or quality of the content -- they could well lose what makes FF the most successful console JRPG franchise worldwide by doing so.

Thinking on it recently, I'd split the numbered FFs in three groups.

FF I - III: Early days.
FF IV - IX: Standard days. Though there were differences from title to title, you could count on the Active Time Battle system with 3-5 member parties, traversible overworlds on a different scale than in towns, controllable airships, random battles.
FF X - ?: Anything goes.

Not that I haven't enjoyed X on, but it wasn't those games that made the franchise huge.

The reason I was thinking about those three groupings recently was I was thinking how weird it was that the "standard days" lasted basically a decade, and now it's been almost a decade since one of them.

 

[Mamesj]

Well if they'd stop changing the entire battle and inventory management systems every fucking game, they might not have this problem. :lol

don't even put that idea in their heads. :lol

 

[RavenFox]

What's so funny if I may ask?

Ignore the trolls please.

 

[-Kh-]

1997 - 2002 just proves that you can make high budget AAA games in shorter time spans. What happened?

Obviously having 3 different internal teams working on those titles helps.

But if you consider all things, after X-2, Kitase team should have gotten XIII done by now.

If SE doesn't have another team working on the planning (at least) of the next FF, i.e Itou, then we won't see this game until all these Fabula Nova Crystallis games are mostly finished in 2-4 years.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

1997 - 2002 just proves that you can make high budget AAA games in shorter time spans. What happened?

This is what I'm saying. Maybe because of those massive overworlds? But even then so they've increased their team sizes. I'm not saying they should rush games, but more so that they should at least be up to par with most companies. A more spread out Capcom type of output would be nice.

Fixed

720p didn't cause SE problems, the franchises own quality cause its problems.

Pretty much. It's a lot more work making a huge overworld to explore like in Final Fantasy XII then painted backgrounds (PS FF series) or linear paths (FFX).

Even then so you'd think that they'd get these games out faster.

 

[Die Squirrel Die]

Thinking on it recently, I'd split the numbered FFs in three groups.

FF I - III: Early days.
FF IV - IX: Standard days. Though there were differences from title to title, you could count on the Active Time Battle system with 3-5 member parties, traversible overworlds on a different scale than in towns, controllable airships, random battles.
FF X - ?: Anything goes.

Not that I haven't enjoyed X on, but it wasn't those games that made the franchise huge.

The reason I was thinking about those three groupings recently was I was thinking how weird it was that the "standard days" lasted basically a decade, and now it's been almost a decade since one of them.

I think you are being inconsistently selective with your criteria. A lot (most?) of what you list in your standard criteria applies to the earlier games. You could also argue a split between 1, 3, 5 (less focus on story, more on the job based gameplay) vs. 2, 4, 6. And if you are talking about what made the franchise huge, then I don't see how you could conceivably group VII, VIII and IX with the earlier titles. Internationally it goes without saying but even within the context of Japanese sales, VII was a big upswing for the series.

 

[luxarific]

Well if they'd stop changing the entire battle and inventory management systems every fucking game, they might not have this problem.

don't even put that idea in their heads. :lol

It's a good point though. If it meant getting the games out faster, I'd rather they'd settled on a good battle/inventory system and then just tweaked it for each game. Reinventing the wheel each time isn't necessary and must consume enormous amounts of time/manpower.

 

[Darkpen]

Obviously having 3 different internal teams working on those titles helps.

But if you consider all things, after X-2, Kitase team should have gotten XIII done by now.

If SE doesn't have another team working on the planning (at least) of the next FF, i.e Itou, then we won't see this game until all these Fabula Nova Crystallis games are mostly finished in 2-4 years.

I don't remember who, but someone in one of the currently living FF threads mentioned that XIII was either into development or preproduction for PS2 before the PS3 was announced, so take that for what you will :S Not even sure if its true or not, but I wouldn't be surprised.

 

[JudgeN]

Right, the franchise's strive to stay ahead of the pack caused this problem because HD development for the average game is already too expensive for any publisher to try to stay ahead of the pack. So HD gaming is at fault too, you see? Does that make any sense? :lol

The franchise own quality was there long before HD gaming so majority of the fault is on the series itself. I"m thinking more of an 80/20 split :lol

 

[H_Prestige]

Should have just stuck with the ps2. FFXIII on the ps3 is taking way too long and is almost certainly not going to have the same amount of "extra" content as previous games. Kitase already said there wouldn't be any mini games. At least with the ps2 they could make a really good, long game with plenty of meat, without breaking the bank and going all the way to 2010.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

Should have just stuck with the ps2. FFXIII on the ps3 is taking way too long and is almost certainly not going to have the same amount of "extra" content as previous games. Kitase already said there wouldn't be any mini games. At least with the ps2 they could make a really good, long game with plenty of meat, without breaking the bank and going all the way to 2010.

While the PS2 has showed legs in the West and in Japan, would it be enough to give the series the potential sales needed in 2008?

 

[~Kinggi~]

Of course it is taking forever. They are putting nearly the same visual quality into the real-time cutscenes that they put into the cg stuff on the psone days. FF 13 looks crazy detailed.

Now spread that out over 40 hours and add a bunch of sidequests and all that crap Final Fantasy is known for and Im amazed the games are even completed at all.

 

[kswiston]

Once a year is pushing it with modern game development, but there is no reason why S-E can't release a new mainline Final Fantasy title once every 2 - 2.5 years. Have two teams alternating titles with 4-5 years of development on each. As long as the quality is there.

 

[H_Prestige]

While the PS2 has showed legs in the West and in Japan, would it be enough to give the series the potential sales needed in 2008?

I think it could have sold as much as FFXII. The ps2 FFXIII would probably be out in 2007, since development began in 2003, and the budget would probably be much smaller as well.

 

[Eteric Rice]

They need to stop overdoing it. Make something for the PS360, the Wii, the DS, and PSP. Focus on each of those products, make sure they're really good, and move on to the next project.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

I think it could have sold as much as FFXII. The ps2 FFXIII would probably be out in 2007, since development began in 2003, and the budget would probably be much smaller as well.

I don't know, it's probably just me but 2007 sounds a bit too early. I just somehow doubt that the game would have been finished just merely a year after FFXII. I know they are developed by two teams but still.

 

[H_Prestige]

I don't know, it's probably just me but 2007 sounds a bit too early. I just somehow doubt that the game would have been finished just merely a year after FFXII. I know they are developed by two teams but still.

It wouldn't be anything out of the ordinary for SE. This 4 year development cycle is only a recent bad habit. VII, VIII, IX, and X were all released in the span of 5 years.

 

[Kittonwy]

I think it could have sold as much as FFXII. The ps2 FFXIII would probably be out in 2007, since development began in 2003, and the budget would probably be much smaller as well.

There have been FOUR FFs out on the PS2 already, shove another one out the door and you risk franchise fatigue, it might be cheaper, it sure as hell wouldn't look anywhere nearly as good as what's already out there and once you've diminished the brand it's very hard getting that back.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

There have been FOUR FFs out on the PS2 already, shove another one out the door and you risk franchise fatigue, it might be cheaper, it sure as hell wouldn't look anywhere nearly as good as what's already out there and once you've diminished the brand it's very hard getting that back.

*thinks*

X, XI, XII, which is the fourth?

 

[JudgeN]

*thinks*

X, XI, XII, which is the fourth?

X-2

 

[H_Prestige]

*thinks*

X, XI, XII, which is the fourth?

X-2

 

[Opiate]

I agree that there do seem to be some undercurrents of a power struggle within SE; I'd picked up on them before, but wasn't confident enough in my analysis to voice them until now. None of this is explicated, and I certainly could be wrong, but it does seem that Wada is concerned about the direction of the company, while his leads are perfectly happy with near infinite budgets and limitless time schedules.

 

[bumpkin]

It's a good point though. If it meant getting the games out faster, I'd rather they'd settled on a good battle/inventory system and then just tweaked it for each game. Reinventing the wheel each time isn't necessary and must consume enormous amounts of time/manpower.

That's what I'm getting at. There's undoubtedly loads of work that has to go into designing these systems, both aesthetically and technologically, and that's not including work that has to go into balancing them. My favorite inventory/battle/skill system, by far, was FFVII's. The only game that came close for me was FFX. But the pseudo real-time crap they introduced for X-2, XII and apparently XIII as well (though I am only going off of video) is not my cup of tea.

 

[Strike]

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

I think you are being inconsistently selective with your criteria. A lot (most?) of what you list in your standard criteria applies to the earlier games. You could also argue a split between 1, 3, 5 (less focus on story, more on the job based gameplay) vs. 2, 4, 6. And if you are talking about what made the franchise huge, then I don't see how you could conceivably group VII, VIII and IX with the earlier titles. Internationally it goes without saying but even within the context of Japanese sales, VII was a big upswing for the series.

I'm basically talking about core gameplay elements. Since so much time is spent in battle, I think the common element of ATB is a big factor. I-III aren't as different from them as X/XI/XII, agreed, but in the larger context I guess they don't seem quite fully formed. Whereas whatever they got accomplished with IV, they felt happy enough with to stick to for a long time.

The jump from VI to VII demonstrates how it's not radically changing the battle/menu systems from title to title is what made the franchise huge, because that was the area of least change.

While the PS2 has showed legs in the West and in Japan, would it be enough to give the series the potential sales needed in 2008?

If it was a PS2 game it would probably also be a Wii game, just as in its current form it's not only a PS3 game but also an X360 game. Hard to know how the turnout of both would compare.

Of course it is taking forever. They are putting nearly the same visual quality into the real-time cutscenes that they put into the cg stuff on the psone days.

FF VII FMV wishes it looked like FF XIII.

 

[duk]

SE: "we like saying the obvious"
SE: "we make too many damn sequels"
SE: "our new IPs are derivitive"
SE: "we suck at gen now"

 

[Htown]

I don't think HD is their problem. If it was, Crystal Bearers wouldn't be taking forever.

Also, maybe you guys should concentrate on making Final Fantasy 13 instead of trying to make 16 spinoffs of it at the same damn time, how bout that?

 

[alba]

Tell that to PD

And another year adds up when you say that! noooo! *shakes fist*

 

[Pojo]

1997 - 2002 just proves that you can make high budget AAA games in shorter time spans. What happened?

Yeah! They could totally pump out 10 FF1-esque games in a year if they wanted to!

Thing is, this aint 1997. It's 2009, baby, and the games look great, require a tremendous amount of localization due to voice acting, and need to be extra good to make any sort of impact with the current generation of blockbusters.

Also, maybe they want to wait for a bigger install base? Just sayin'. The move to the 360 will get them more than enough sales to recoup money "lost" during the wait between games (if the myriad of other releases don't already serve that purpose).

XIII is going to be an amazing epic of a game. So will XIII v XIII, and the inevitable Kingdom Hearts 3. Just sit back and enjoy, they will be here soon enough.

 

[XGoldenboyX]

WOW! what retard comment. Evidently money is all he as in his mind.
You can't cut back on time and cost and expect to make the same type of quality games they are making.

But sure if you do want a less time/quality to make more profit then sure go ahed with the plan.

 

[shintoki]

I mentioned it before, As a few have compared them to Capcom.
Capcom started the gen early on. They started with PC/360 development as soon as possible. They also came in with a plan, What type of engine they needed to build, Games they needed to do, etc.
Square backed PS3 from the get go and just them, They started later then other developers, came in completely unprepared, and more unrealistic expectations.

The generation went in the opposite direction they thought it would go and its biting them in the ass for it.