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Square Enix: "We Take Too Long To Make Games"

JoshuaJSlone said:
FF VII FMV wishes it looked like FF XIII. :)

Ya, PS1 era Final Fantasy cgi cutscenes aren't as amazing looking as some people remember.

Compare Final Fantasy VIII's CGI opener to Final Fantasy XIII Vs's in game graphics (second part of the clip).

While some of the effects of the FFVIII (like the field of flowers) opener may still be beyond current gen real time, the real time character models in VS are a lot better than the CGI character models from the PS1 FFs.

EDIT: Those particular games were chosen because A) the Character designs were by the same artist, and B) FF8 was the first title in the series with Ccompetent CGI. FFVII cgi is embarrassing by today's standards
 
Pojo said:
Thing is, this aint 1997. It's 2009, baby, and the games look great, require a tremendous amount of localization due to voice acting, and need to be extra good to make any sort of impact with the current generation of blockbusters.


What you are saying is extremely relative, and very well can be applied to any of the releases since FFVI if you wanted.

Of course there wasn't any voice acting back then, but it was like that for most games. Anyway you are refering to localization of the VA, and that's not quite the point when we are still waiting for the release of the game in Japan.

Every gen had their own blockbusters, this gen is nothing different compared to the PS1/N64 gen, or the PS2/GC/XBOX/DC. The end result gets better as time passes, that is due to the technology, but the effort and quality from those titles 4 years ago, or 10 years ago, is basically the same as now inside their own scope.
 
kswiston said:
Ya, PS1 era Final Fantasy cgi cutscenes aren't as amazing looking as some people remember.

Compare Final Fantasy VIII's CGI opener to Final Fantasy XIII Vs's in game graphics (second part of the clip).

While some of the effects of the FFVIII (like the field of flowers) opener may still be beyond current gen real time, the real time character models in VS are a lot better than the CGI character models from the PS1 FFs.

EDIT: Those particular games were chosen because A) the Character designs were by the same artist, and B) FF8 was the first title in the series with Ccompetent CGI. FFVII cgi is embarrassing by today's standards

They're about the same. Just compare Seifer with Snow, since they both have virtually the same exact outfit.
 
Hellraizer said:
1997 - 2002 just proves that you can make high budget AAA games in shorter time spans. What happened?

MS and Sony came out with their worthless, wannabe HD systems and screwed everything up.
 
JoshuaJSlone said:
FF VII FMV wishes it looked like FF XIII. :)
I was more referring to the style of direction. Like, in the psone days gameplay consisted of either battles or characters standing around on 2d backgrounds. Nowadays the gameplay resembles the sequences that they would have reserved for cg in the past.

The planning alone would account for such huge dev time increases.
 
Brannon said:
See: Chrono Trigger.

They knew how to keep it tight and focused once, may they find that focus again.

If you skip the sidequests and don't get caught up in the minigames, most final fantasy games can be completed in under 40 hours or so. The only exception I can really think of is FFXII. If you HAVE to get absolutely everything, than it'll take you 80+ hours, but that's your choice. You can't really fault a developer for offering extra game play to those interested.
 
Kagari said:
Birth by Sleep is essentially the "next KH." Don't expect III for a long time, if this generation.

I was thinking about that earlier. Kingdom Hearts II was out in late 2005/2006 depending on your territory. If Kingdom Heart's 3 is waiting for Nomura's team to finish Vs, the earliest it'll see release is what? 2012/2013. S-E should announce it at E3, so we can place bets on which game is released first. DQX or KH3.
 
Well, what happened? The nextgen, HD generation happened. I already wrote an extensive article about that subject on my site, but in short: generational jumps rises production costs about a 300%. This generational jump has almost tripled that (around 800%). It is ridiculous, and Squarenix, being a company whose bread and butter are huge blockbuster epics, was bound to suffer this gen. Case in point: notice how their handled output has been pretty consistent this gen and generally talking, way better than their console counterparts.
 
kswiston said:
If you skip the sidequests and don't get caught up in the minigames, most final fantasy games can be completed in under 40 hours or so. The only exception I can really think of is FFXII. If you HAVE to get absolutely everything, than it'll take you 80+ hours, but that's your choice. You can't really fault a developer for offering extra game play to those interested.

I'm 18 hours into FFXII and absolutely loving it. At this time, Mass Effect is almost over. I'm getting tired of western rpgs that, upon getting interested in the characters and the game's world, the game ends. The WRPGs world is much much much larger than the gameplay, and that's really underwhelming.
 
I imagine KH3 is waiting on a number of things. Probably a decision by Disney on where it should go, the Versus team for their development to finish, and development to be faster and cheaper than it is right now.
 
luxarific said:
It's a good point though. If it meant getting the games out faster, I'd rather they'd settled on a good battle/inventory system and then just tweaked it for each game. Reinventing the wheel each time isn't necessary and must consume enormous amounts of time/manpower.

That's probably the most important part of the game in terms of gameplay - and yet I'd imagine that it's one of the least significant portions of the development time in terms of man-hours. I won't say that it's easy - and balancing probably takes a lot of work - but I doubt changing that plan would save them all that much time in the long run.
 
Gaming community: No shit!

ShockingAlberto said:
I imagine KH3 is waiting on a number of things. Probably a decision by Disney on where it should go, the Versus team for their development to finish, and development to be faster and cheaper than it is right now.
I honestly think it will either go to the Wii or be very scaled back (compared to the jump from FFXII to XIII) simply because Square-Enix doesn't want another situation where they take like five years to make a game. The returns for FFXIII will be nice I'm sure, but the time that's been taken to make it could have been used more productively to keep the Square-Enix brand relevant. One game alone won't do that - Nintendo made Super Mario Fucking Galaxy and their reputation is still bad with the "gamers"
 
Guys, mostly just people convinced that the 360 port of ff13 is slowing it down for ps3 owners- remember, the fastest they'd have gotten the game out for north america is about 6 months after it's japanese release , odds are good they wouldn't release it in the summer but would rather wait until september for a release falling in line with some of the older ones. This means 8 or 9 months. Doing a port to the 360 is likely being accomplished with microsofts assistance (weather financial or perhaps with people power) and given some past examples of ps3 to 360 ports I can't see it taking more then 6 months to pull off. The translation will be occurring at the same time and will likely just get more polished.

So basically just shut up and buy it on ps3 and be happy :P
 
Square Enix SUX this gen!!! Fuck them with their 360-exclusives. I decided to buy all SE 360 games used until they change their attitude towards PS3. >:(
 
Without regard to Insomniac's quality, the fast of the matter is that they make very similar sequels most of the time. Resistance isn't quite a formula yet, but Ratchet is, and that helps maintain a schedule.
 
Ikael said:
Well, what happened? The nextgen, HD generation happened. I already wrote an extensive article about that subject on my site, but in short: generational jumps rises production costs about a 300%. This generational jump has almost tripled that (around 800%). It is ridiculous, and Squarenix, being a company whose bread and butter are huge blockbuster epics, was bound to suffer this gen. Case in point: notice how their handled output has been pretty consistent this gen and generally talking, way better than their console counterparts.

The 800% budget jump is BS, at least in terms of what it costs for a AAA game. According to a report originally printed in Japanese publication Yomiuri (and linked to on Wikipedia), Final Fantasy X cost 4 billion yen to develop. Do you really think FFXIII is going to cost anywhere near 32 billion yen when everything is said and done? That would work out to $320 million US dollars.

I'm sure there has been some jump in the cost of producing a AAA for the HD consoles (double previous costs?), but blockbuster epics were always expensive.
 
kswiston said:
Ya, PS1 era Final Fantasy cgi cutscenes aren't as amazing looking as some people remember.

Compare Final Fantasy VIII's CGI opener to Final Fantasy XIII Vs's in game graphics (second part of the clip).

While some of the effects of the FFVIII (like the field of flowers) opener may still be beyond current gen real time, the real time character models in VS are a lot better than the CGI character models from the PS1 FFs.

EDIT: Those particular games were chosen because A) the Character designs were by the same artist, and B) FF8 was the first title in the series with Ccompetent CGI. FFVII cgi is embarrassing by today's standards


umm, the point is that they are awesome for their time.
 
-Kh- said:
What you are saying is extremely relative, and very well can be applied to any of the releases since FFVI if you wanted.

Of course there wasn't any voice acting back then, but it was like that for most games. Anyway you are refering to localization of the VA, and that's not quite the point when we are still waiting for the release of the game in Japan.

Every gen had their own blockbusters, this gen is nothing different compared to the PS1/N64 gen, or the PS2/GC/XBOX/DC. The end result gets better as time passes, that is due to the technology, but the effort and quality from those titles 4 years ago, or 10 years ago, is basically the same as now inside their own scope.
It's relative to a limited extent, but Square is putting more into the games. The tech advances faster than developers have time to wrap their heads around it, and the detail is staggering. Carmack was talking about this with Doom compared to Doom 3. You could get buy with a small team and swap a few textures around. There are literally hundreds of people on a team now, all with different jobs, that need to be coordinated, paid, and meet deadlines, all while exceeding the expectations of their previous games.

The wait between localization was always long. Imagine how bad it has to be with voice overs. It's just another thing you have to consider.
 
Capcom's framework engine has pumped out: Dead Rising, Lost Planet, Devil May Cry 4, Resident Evil 5. They now have Dead Rising 2 & Lost Planet 2 known in development presumably for late this year/next year respectively and no doubt other stuff we dont know about yet. These titles of course always as global releases, brimming with extra content from the start.

Square's White Engine/Crystal Tools has failed to release anything in the same time-frame. Indeed I only know of the two FF13 games that are actually being made with it. The argument that FF's just take a while these days is weak, because while I'm sure FF13 will be a good game, it will not be the equivalent of 6 good games dev time. The cutscenes don't look particularly more incredible to warrant such time, especially when we've had a new next gen Metal Gear come and go.

Manpower is also moot, since it only took 3-5 people to initially make the MT Framework engine, and then bumped it up closer to 10 for its PS3 inclusion and 2.0 iteration.

Square Enix were simply caught with their pants well and truly down this generation, and we've had to bear witness to their tripping, stumbling and todger hanging out spraying piss everywhere ever since.
 
Aaron Strife said:
Gaming community: No shit!


I honestly think it will either go to the Wii or be very scaled back (compared to the jump from FFXII to XIII) simply because Square-Enix doesn't want another situation where they take like five years to make a game. The returns for FFXIII will be nice I'm sure, but the time that's been taken to make it could have been used more productively to keep the Square-Enix brand relevant. One game alone won't do that - Nintendo made Super Mario Fucking Galaxy and their reputation is still bad with the "gamers"
Thats a great statement right thar...
 
Die Squirrel Die said:
That's why a Final Fantasy can sell 5 million WW, whereas most other jRPGs would be lucky to break a million. SE's challenge will be to make their development more efficient without significantly impacting the polish or production values that makes the series popular with people outside of the genre enthusiasts.

And wasn't the delay to Crisis Core something to with the director wanting specific people on the development team who were tied up with KHII? I seem to remember reading an interview with him (or maybe it was a more senior producer) that said that development on Crisis Core didn't begin in earnest until KHII was finished.

Maybe they need to change the focus of Final Fantasy from cinimatic to something else and see how it goes over?

Cinimatic is just getting to expensive. Not to mention done to death.
 
Eteric Rice said:
Maybe they need to change the focus of Final Fantasy from cinimatic to something else and see how it goes over?

Cinimatic is just getting to expensive. Not to mention done to death.

You are getting your Crystal Bearers. Please, spare us the routine.
 
lunlunqq said:
Square Enix SUX this gen!!! Fuck them with their 360-exclusives. I decided to buy all SE 360 games used until they change their attitude towards PS3. >:(

Best comment thus far.

I'm struggling to decide if this is a joke or he is serious :lol
 
SecretBonusPoint said:
You are getting your Crystal Bearers. Please, spare us the routine.

Stop trying to start shit, please. I'm just saying. Spending millions on cut scenes people are pretty much going to watch just once isn't really that great of an idea.

Hell, even Blizzard has cut off the CGI shit in WoW (at least in game ones).
 
SecretBonusPoint said:
Capcom's framework engine has pumped out: Dead Rising, Lost Planet, Devil May Cry 4, Resident Evil 5. They now have Dead Rising 2 & Lost Planet 2 known in development presumably for late this year/next year respectively and no doubt other stuff we dont know about yet. These titles of course always as global releases, brimming with extra content from the start.

Square's White Engine/Crystal Tools has failed to release anything in the same time-frame. Indeed I only know of the two FF13 games that are actually being made with it. The argument that FF's just take a while these days is weak, because while I'm sure FF13 will be a good game, it will not be the equivalent of 6 good games dev time. The cutscenes don't look particularly more incredible to warrant such time, especially when we've had a new next gen Metal Gear come and go.

Manpower is also moot, since it only took 3-5 people to initially make the MT Framework engine, and then bumped it up closer to 10 for its PS3 inclusion and 2.0 iteration.

Square Enix were simply caught with their pants well and truly down this generation, and we've had to bear witness to their tripping, stumbling and todger hanging out spraying piss everywhere ever since.
6 good games? Square has already released games this gen, only not all of them use the same engine.

If they release 1 great game with the engine, I'm happy.
 
Ikael said:
Well, what happened? The nextgen, HD generation happened.
Yeah, that's why FF12 was in development for a much shorter time than 13 and why DQ9 on DS was done almost as soon as it was started.
 
This is nothing surprising. When their main cash cows (DQ and FF) take multiple years to produce and with the rising costs of R&D, Square Enix can no longer afford to follow their old model. If they cannot change they will suffer.

Nintendo even said this at the beginning of this generation that games were taking too long to develop.
 
SecretBonusPoint said:
Capcom's framework engine has pumped out: Dead Rising, Lost Planet, Devil May Cry 4, Resident Evil 5. They now have Dead Rising 2 & Lost Planet 2 known in development presumably for late this year/next year respectively and no doubt other stuff we dont know about yet. These titles of course always as global releases, brimming with extra content from the start.

Square's White Engine/Crystal Tools has failed to release anything in the same time-frame. Indeed I only know of the two FF13 games that are actually being made with it. The argument that FF's just take a while these days is weak, because while I'm sure FF13 will be a good game, it will not be the equivalent of 6 good games dev time. The cutscenes don't look particularly more incredible to warrant such time, especially when we've had a new next gen Metal Gear come and go.

Manpower is also moot, since it only took 3-5 people to initially make the MT Framework engine, and then bumped it up closer to 10 for its PS3 inclusion and 2.0 iteration.

Square Enix were simply caught with their pants well and truly down this generation, and we've had to bear witness to their tripping, stumbling and todger hanging out spraying piss everywhere ever since.

Capcom has been the most forward thinking (i.e. adopting Western development techniques) Japanese company when it comes to developing games this generations. They attempt to share technology and engines as much as possible. They also contract a some middleware to help with development. It's like watching greased lightning as a Japanese developer.
 
Games that are in development for 4 years are mostly amazing games, so take your time square enix (if you can try to make another rpg that can rival your oldie chrono trigger or final fantasy 6).
 
Eteric Rice said:
Stop trying to start shit, please. I'm just saying. Spending millions on cut scenes people are pretty much going to watch just once isn't really that great of an idea.

Hell, even Blizzard has cut off the CGI shit in WoW (at least in game ones).

Yeah a large part of me longs for hobbyist market again. I also know quite a few friends that dont dig FF or Square since the playstation era hit. I would be nice to see a traditional project with a return to game play, strong folklore & mythology, mature characters, iconic animation that leaves abit to the imagination, slight voice acting like WoW where you get the first sentence before it goes to text. There is something wrong with person that calls himself rpg nut if you ask me and demands every game be voiced so he dont have to read anymore. Not that sprites or cell shading is vastly cheaper but it has to be quite a bit less the trying to be a high budgeted B rated movie all the time. The best rpg experiences lately on the DS for alot people were the snes classic remakes, that says plenty right there.
 
The 800% budget jump is BS, at least in terms of what it costs for a AAA game. According to a report originally printed in Japanese publication Yomiuri (and linked to on Wikipedia), Final Fantasy X cost 4 billion yen to develop. Do you really think FFXIII is going to cost anywhere near 32 billion yen when everything is said and done? That would work out to $320 million US dollars.

Unless the sources are mistaken:

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6133848.html

The average price of the 13 Xbox games included in the survey was 202 million yen ($1.8 million), with PlayStation 2 and GameCube development costs trailing behind at 96 million yen ($877,634) and 90 million yen ($822,857), respectively.

Compare that with:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7151961.stm

Now, the average Playstation 3 title is estimated to cost $15m.

That's a freaking increase of 800%. It is nuts.

Also:

factor-5_grafica1-562x450.jpg


Sure, it is not a perfect mathematical formula that would apply to every single game this generation. I also doubt that ffXIII will cost that much to make. But it is undeniable that the development costs, required manpower and budgets are getting out of control.
 
well, think about that graph in a different way, let's just assume that salaries have stayed the same in the last 20 years of game development (I'm sure they've actually gone up ALOT). So you're looking at maybe 50,000 per year per employee on average. A snes/genesis game could be made in 9 months with 10-15 people on staff so you're talking maybe a half million per game and those were likely the more expensive titles as there were also many games made with smaller staffs in even less time. But whatever, let's just run with that 500,000$ figure for a 16 bit title. Move on to the 32 bit era (I'll say 3d0 up to nintendo 64) and suddenly you need to hire twice as many programmers/artists/testers and such and the games need 15 months to finish instead of 9 months. So now we're talking 20- 30 people working for 15 months on something. Again using that 50,000 per employee ballpark we get roughly 1.5 million dollars per game .. again there were certainly games that were made for less but there were also games built in 9 months that had more then 30 people on staff. So we're talking a 3 fold increase going from 16 bit to 32 bit.

Now we move onto what I'll dub the ps2 generation (dreamcast, ps2, gamecube, xbox). The 3d got more complex, textures more detailed, programming harder. Now we're looking at 18-24 months to build a game and staffs in the range of 50 people. Still maintaining that 50K per year salary we come up with 4-5 million per game , again some games came out faster then that but likely had larger staffs. Basically we're looking at around a 3 fold increase in costs once again.

I almost don't even need to do the math on what a game costs right now, most studios these days seem to have near 100 people building games that now take atleast 24 months to finish with the odd big release title having closer to a 30-36 month development cycle. 3 fold increase this time would put the minimum cost of a 360/ps3 title at near 15 million.

The scary prospect to consider is that building a game on the next generation of consoles, given this fairly constant increase is going to be a movie budget level commitment. We're talking 40+ million for a game to actually use the hardware, staffs of 150-200 people working 3 years minimum to get something out the door. Something is going to give and my guess is it'll be the length of games, you'll wind up having companies investing 15-20 million to make "episode 1/2" of a game and further entries will come out every 6 months for a cost of 50% the original disc. Studios will need 5 year plans to figure out how to turn a profit on their games and I suspect many studios will go under as a failed launch will be the end.

On the other hand, the next gen consoles may well go the wii route , offering a cheaper better designed console with minimal graphical increases to keep development costs lower.


For the record, using the same formula to figure out the cost of final fantasy 13 produces a rather daunting number. I mean we can figure by the time it comes out to ps3 in japan that it'll have had a 4.5 year development cycle (54 months) multiplied by a minimum of 150 staff(counting the cg movies /actors and such). This means development of ff13 alone cost north of 30 million dollars (like absolute bare minimum). Factor in other costs of a game release such as advertising , disc production and foreign language development, the 360 port. I wouldn't be surprised if FF13 is nearly a 100 million dollar investment when it's all said and done world wide. Now in japan /asia there'll be a square enix tax on the game , it'll retail for a minimum of 9000 yen over there , possibly even over 10,000 yen. It'll sell atleast a million copies which means 10,000,000,000 yen in revenue. That's roughly 100 million USD revenue , some of that goes to the retailers but square will likely see 60% of it which means they'll need to sell atleast another million to really break even on the investment. It's a giant complicated bunch of BS.
 
Better to take too long than to rush a product to market - hell, I have enough on my plate to play already!
 
Pachinko said:
For the record, using the same formula to figure out the cost of final fantasy 13 produces a rather daunting number. I mean we can figure by the time it comes out to ps3 in japan that it'll have had a 4.5 year development cycle (54 months) multiplied by a minimum of 150 staff(counting the cg movies /actors and such). This means development of ff13 alone cost north of 30 million dollars (like absolute bare minimum). Factor in other costs of a game release such as advertising , disc production and foreign language development, the 360 port. I wouldn't be surprised if FF13 is nearly a 100 million dollar investment when it's all said and done world wide. Now in japan /asia there'll be a square enix tax on the game , it'll retail for a minimum of 9000 yen over there , possibly even over 10,000 yen. It'll sell atleast a million copies which means 10,000,000,000 yen in revenue. That's roughly 100 million USD revenue , some of that goes to the retailers but square will likely see 60% of it which means they'll need to sell atleast another million to really break even on the investment. It's a giant complicated bunch of BS.

A couple things:

1) While a game like FFXIII may take 4-5 years to develop, and have a team of 150+, most of those team members would join later in development. Square Enix is not employing all 150+ people for that full 4-5 years.

2) AAA Final Fantasy games have always been expensive (at least since the 32bit era). According to Gamespot's history of the series, Final Fantasy VII cost over $30 million dollars to develop. As I said earlier, Final Fantasy X cost around 4 billion yen, which was around $33 million using the currency exchange at the time ($40 million by today's currency exchange). Who knows how much Final Fantasy XII cost with its five years of development and problems during production.

I wouldn't be surprised if Final Fantasy XIII costs $50 million plus to develop, but comparative jump in developmental costs for Final Fantasy calibur games is nothing close to the jump in costs to develop a second/third tier title on the HD systems. That is the jump that is really hurting companies like S-E this gen.

Using hypothetical numbers, Star Ocean 4 costing 10-15 million dollars to develop/market and selling 400k worldwide is a much bigger problem than Final Fantasy XIII costing 100 million dollars to develop/market and selling 5 million worldwide.
 
Pachinko said:
well, think about that graph in a different way, let's just assume that salaries have stayed the same in the last 20 years of game development (I'm sure they've actually gone up ALOT). So you're looking at maybe 50,000 per year per employee on average. A snes/genesis game could be made in 9 months with 10-15 people on staff so you're talking maybe a half million per game and those were likely the more expensive titles as there were also many games made with smaller staffs in even less time. But whatever, let's just run with that 500,000$ figure for a 16 bit title. Move on to the 32 bit era (I'll say 3d0 up to nintendo 64) and suddenly you need to hire twice as many programmers/artists/testers and such and the games need 15 months to finish instead of 9 months. So now we're talking 20- 30 people working for 15 months on something. Again using that 50,000 per employee ballpark we get roughly 1.5 million dollars per game .. again there were certainly games that were made for less but there were also games built in 9 months that had more then 30 people on staff. So we're talking a 3 fold increase going from 16 bit to 32 bit.

Now we move onto what I'll dub the ps2 generation (dreamcast, ps2, gamecube, xbox). The 3d got more complex, textures more detailed, programming harder. Now we're looking at 18-24 months to build a game and staffs in the range of 50 people. Still maintaining that 50K per year salary we come up with 4-5 million per game , again some games came out faster then that but likely had larger staffs. Basically we're looking at around a 3 fold increase in costs once again.

I almost don't even need to do the math on what a game costs right now, most studios these days seem to have near 100 people building games that now take atleast 24 months to finish with the odd big release title having closer to a 30-36 month development cycle. 3 fold increase this time would put the minimum cost of a 360/ps3 title at near 15 million.

The scary prospect to consider is that building a game on the next generation of consoles, given this fairly constant increase is going to be a movie budget level commitment. We're talking 40+ million for a game to actually use the hardware, staffs of 150-200 people working 3 years minimum to get something out the door. Something is going to give and my guess is it'll be the length of games, you'll wind up having companies investing 15-20 million to make "episode 1/2" of a game and further entries will come out every 6 months for a cost of 50% the original disc. Studios will need 5 year plans to figure out how to turn a profit on their games and I suspect many studios will go under as a failed launch will be the end.

On the other hand, the next gen consoles may well go the wii route , offering a cheaper better designed console with minimal graphical increases to keep development costs lower.


For the record, using the same formula to figure out the cost of final fantasy 13 produces a rather daunting number. I mean we can figure by the time it comes out to ps3 in japan that it'll have had a 4.5 year development cycle (54 months) multiplied by a minimum of 150 staff(counting the cg movies /actors and such). This means development of ff13 alone cost north of 30 million dollars (like absolute bare minimum). Factor in other costs of a game release such as advertising , disc production and foreign language development, the 360 port. I wouldn't be surprised if FF13 is nearly a 100 million dollar investment when it's all said and done world wide. Now in japan /asia there'll be a square enix tax on the game , it'll retail for a minimum of 9000 yen over there , possibly even over 10,000 yen. It'll sell atleast a million copies which means 10,000,000,000 yen in revenue. That's roughly 100 million USD revenue , some of that goes to the retailers but square will likely see 60% of it which means they'll need to sell atleast another million to really break even on the investment. It's a giant complicated bunch of BS.

You do realize the post right above yours shows the average PS2 game at under $1 million dollars right? Your whole post is completely debunked by the one above.
 
Wada was talking about it from a business perspective. Me, I look at it from a fan's perspective. Personally, I honestly don't give a shit how long it takes them to make a game. What I do care about is how long they make me wait for a game. FFXIII is a perfect example. They announced/unveiled it way too early. FFXII had only just been released in Japan, and was still several months away in NA/EU. Now here we are three years later, and we're still waiting for it. That sucks. FFVII was officially announced/unveiled in March 1996. In January 1997, less than a year later, it was on store shelves. FFVIII, unveiled May 1998... released February 1999, only nine months later. FFIX, announced January 2000... on store shelves in fucking JULY 2000. Yep, those were definitely the Good Ol' Days. I realize things can never be the way they were because the technology has advanced so much and development is far more complex... but if it were up to me they would have kept a lid on FFXIII for at least another year, maybe two. I really wish they'd wait until they're 100% certain a game is less than a year from completion before they shove it in our face.
 
JudgeN said:
You do realize the post right above yours shows the average PS2 game at under $1 million dollars right? Your whole post is completely debunked by the one above.

To be fair, in the link you're talking about, Namco-Bandai mentions that their ps2 era budgets were 900k-4.5M. Gamespot then mentions that this conflicts with a report by a group called CESA which surveyed a bunch of devs and found that the average PS2 title in japan costs about 870k.

Here are the numbers from that CESA report (taken from the gamespot write-up)

Gamespot said:
Platform - average development cost / number of titles used for calculation

Xbox - 202 million yen ($1.8 million) / 13 titles
PlayStation 2 - 96 million yen ($877,634) / 194 titles
GameCube - 90 million yen ($822,857) / 11 titles
PlayStation Portable - 90 million yen ($822,857) / 6 titles
PlayStation - 80 million yen ($731,429) / 1 title
Game Boy Advance - 53 million yen ($484,571) / 47 titles
DS - 37 million yen ($338,286) / 3 titles
Dreamcast - 25 million yen ($228,571) / 2 titles

First thing to note is, aside from the PS2 and GBA, their sample sizes suck. Averages are meaningless if your sample size is 1-6.

Regarding the systems they have decent sample sizes for, I wonder what devs are included in their survey. If most of those 194 PS2 titles are Japanese shovelware, than that isn't going to be reflective of the costs of a Square Enix PS2 title. As it is, I find it hard to believe your average PS2 game costs less than twice what your average GBA game costs.
 
Muffdraul said:
That sucks. FFVII was officially announced/unveiled in March 1996. In January 1997, less than a year later, it was on store shelves. FFVIII, unveiled May 1998... released February 1999, only nine months later. FFIX, announced January 2000... on store shelves in fucking JULY 2000. Yep, those were definitely the Good Ol' Days. I realize things can never be the way they were because the technology has advanced so much and development is far more complex... but if it were up to me they would have kept a lid on FFXIII for at least another year, maybe two. I really wish they'd wait until they're 100% certain a game is less than a year from completion before they shove it in our face.

In those days they had an organized plan for everything and thus reaped the rewards. However keep in mind that the Square Enix merger really hurt the Square side of things. Combine that with some perplexing management such as backing the PS3 initially and then not releasing a single game on it while making a bevy of 360 exclusives and THEN saying "we've fallen behind in multiplatform development". You goons should've been working on that back in 2006-2007. And if that bit about the White Engine documention is true then lulz.
 
I'm getting the strange feeling that FFXIII isn't going to be a huge long game gameplay wise. The cut scenes are going to be insane though. It might not be justified (as I have nothing to back it up other then a feeling) but I'm fearing another Xenosaga here. That's been a fear I've had about this for a long time now.
 
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