RubberJohnny
Banned
Combat is very pay to win at the moment, starting ships and loadouts suck and there's no way to buy new ones in game without spending real money.
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Star Citizen Alpha 2.0 | The 'Verse Awakens
- Thread starter Raticus79
- Start date
Combat is very pay to win at the moment, starting ships and loadouts suck and there's no way to buy new ones in game without spending real money.
Zalusithix
Member
The ships (or at least the ones meant to be dogfighting) are much more nimble than their ED counterparts. ED has massive restrictions on yaw which SC doesn't. If anything SC has gotten a rep for being "turrets in space" due to how fast you can spin and change your vector.
That said, speed has been artificially limited to try and condense the combat space and make battles more engaging with less jousting. It's also not very well balanced, but there's variables that aren't in play yet (the larger ships, component repair in multicrew, etc).
As for RJ's comment, while it has nothing to do with what you asked, the PU doesn't have progression on ships yet, but you can earn REC to rent ships and weapons for the Arena Commander side of things.
TheVoidDragon
Member
....so why does his post not have a "last edited" time the bottom corner?
Regardless, that makes absolutely no difference at all. You don't seem to quite get what i'm saying, so i'll go through it all and explain it fully.
Ganycs entire post was quoting a potential reasoning for the loan being that it could be to get around the currency conversion and such...which you even then acknowledged in your reply post calling it "rubbish", so claiming you didn't see the reason he posted is absurd:
After this post while everyone is still discussing the very same topic (Your reply quoted below is a reply to Ganyc trying to counter your dismissal of the loan explanation as "Rubbish"), you go on to say that there is no reason for there to be collateral in the first place if it wasn't bad:
After this, you get an explanation why there would be collateral for a loan and it isn't necessarily bad - collateral is needed for a secured loan, which allows them to have lower interest rates, and that lines up with the explanation for the loan posted by Ganyc which is what lead to that being discussed.
At which point, you then change your mind to say there is no explanation for the loan in the first place, when that is the entire topic the discussing is currently taking place around:
I'm bringing it up because you're being very contradictory; dismiss explanation for loan because you think there's no reason for collateral, get told reason for collateral, say there's no explanation for the loan. If you really are legitimately concerned about the game in a way that doesn't just look to find whatever reason to criticize it and bring it down, then i'd think you would have some internal consistency with your reasoning and not have your story change once shown to be wrong.
Cabbagehead
Member
Best explanation i could find.
....................................................Flight Models:
Star Citizen uses a nearly unrestricted flight system mostly driven from realistic physics calculations with some hand-wavium included where needed for fun purposes. It supports full 6dof with an optional computer assisted (You make the action, the computer will make the equal and opposite to keep you pointed where you want it to) "Decoupled" mode which is full-Newtonian flight.(edited)
Euses a more arcade-like flight system to go along with the older Elite games. Pitch, Roll, and especially yaw feel much more restricted compared to Star Citizen. However, E
Combat:
Star Citizen (for the smaller ships which is what we currently have access to) is a pure unadulterated Adrenalin rush of jousting, strafing, flanking, and evading. Current weapon systems include: Fixed guns, manual-aim gimballed guns, Occupied turrets, dumb-fire and lock-on missiles
E
In either case SC flight model is still being worked on and with the advent of item 2.0 and it's new interactive system. We will have far more tangible control over are ships; like more in-depth component configuration, management, fuel, damage & repair and other aspects that. Were regulated to either being bare bones, pr turned off or implemented in 3.0. Compared to the previous patches.
Cabbagehead
Member
That's why i put him on ignore at this point. He has a agenda, it was clear, as Clifford the big red dog.
It's way more agile and I find it a lot of fun. One problem (for some people) is with that agility, there's a tendency for people to circle strafe in PVP. There's a stronger emphasis on how well you can aim over how well you can fly, although situational awareness is still important. I think that they'll eventually wind up implementing some console-style aim assist to help with that gap, but it'll be interesting to see what they come up with.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Man why is this thread always so hostile.
SC: Combat looks better in Star Citizen. Beautiful scenery. Entertaining combats. I found that the weapons I had access to on my Mustang (not many) felt good albeit limited. I'd rather not have to pay more real money into the game to try out other weapons systems. Obviously, SC isn't out and ED has been out and polishing its combat for literally years so we can and do expect more from SC combat. A lot more. But only time will tell.
ED: Combat plays better and sounds better in Elite Dangerous with a considerably better feeling flight model (both computer assisted and not), better feeling weapons ranging from fixed to limited auto-targeting gimbaled, to full targeting turrets. The sound FX puts SC to shame, but the Elite Dangerous sound team won awards for their work. Unlike a previous comment, missiles and torpedoes feel noting like other weapons. Laser options all feel different, kientic weapons like cannons and miniguns all feel different. There are even mines you can use. But you should already know all that.
Further, Elite Dangerous offers a range of weapons modifications that can give each weapon system you have on your ship special effects including (but not limited to): causing random equipment malfunctions on the enemy ship, increasing heat generation, healing ally shields, temporarily scrambling radar, temporarily reducing gimbal tracking range and targeting, disabling jump drives, destroying shield generators, and more. These add quite a bit of variety to your combat options.
IMO, combat does not *look* as good as it does in Star Citizen, as most combat takes place pretty far from stars or planets. I really like how close to planets SC combat is, as it gives a heightened sense of perspective and wonder. Elite Dangerous' distance from those large planetary bodies makes it less easy to appreciate the scale of planetary bodies during combat. Further, because most of space is necessarily black, much combat is pretty dark outside of lasers, plasma rounds and railguns firing, thrusters boosting with bright burns and whatnot. It looks fine perfectly fine when you're fighting in close quarters, but again not having the same degree of proximity to big stellar bodies during combat (and the brightness they provide) is a miss for me there.
Both are rewarding and can provide plenty of "adrenaline". Just depends on who you fight, where and in what ship. In Elite Dangerous I prefer to go out into big combat zones with small ships using fixed guns, with appropriate music blaring. Turning and burning literally never gets old and is one of the most exciting experiences I have in gaming. Add a capital-class ship for extra awesomesauce.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPXrE80S2EI
Yes, their arrival is as epic as it sounds, because it's fairly random. I remember where I was and what I was doing most times when a cap ship entered combat zones I was fighting in. It's just the coolest shit.
Plus, VR (virtual reality). ED has it and it's one of the finest reasons to buy a Vive/Rift. Flying a fighter in Elite Dangerous might change your life and expectations for space sim combat and gameplay in general in the same way that buying your first force feedback racing wheel for Forza/GTA will sour you to the days you played racing sims without one and spoil you to any future sims that don't work with your wheel.
If you're having trouble with the speed of ED, I'd suggest you get a smaller, faster ship. A Courier or Vulture going 400-600m/s should look and feel pretty damn fast. Don't go into SC expecting a better experience in that regard. It's very much a beta product in every sense.
SC: Combat looks better in Star Citizen. Beautiful scenery. Entertaining combats. I found that the weapons I had access to on my Mustang (not many) felt good albeit limited. I'd rather not have to pay more real money into the game to try out other weapons systems. Obviously, SC isn't out and ED has been out and polishing its combat for literally years so we can and do expect more from SC combat. A lot more. But only time will tell.
ED: Combat plays better and sounds better in Elite Dangerous with a considerably better feeling flight model (both computer assisted and not), better feeling weapons ranging from fixed to limited auto-targeting gimbaled, to full targeting turrets. The sound FX puts SC to shame, but the Elite Dangerous sound team won awards for their work. Unlike a previous comment, missiles and torpedoes feel noting like other weapons. Laser options all feel different, kientic weapons like cannons and miniguns all feel different. There are even mines you can use. But you should already know all that.
Further, Elite Dangerous offers a range of weapons modifications that can give each weapon system you have on your ship special effects including (but not limited to): causing random equipment malfunctions on the enemy ship, increasing heat generation, healing ally shields, temporarily scrambling radar, temporarily reducing gimbal tracking range and targeting, disabling jump drives, destroying shield generators, and more. These add quite a bit of variety to your combat options.
IMO, combat does not *look* as good as it does in Star Citizen, as most combat takes place pretty far from stars or planets. I really like how close to planets SC combat is, as it gives a heightened sense of perspective and wonder. Elite Dangerous' distance from those large planetary bodies makes it less easy to appreciate the scale of planetary bodies during combat. Further, because most of space is necessarily black, much combat is pretty dark outside of lasers, plasma rounds and railguns firing, thrusters boosting with bright burns and whatnot. It looks fine perfectly fine when you're fighting in close quarters, but again not having the same degree of proximity to big stellar bodies during combat (and the brightness they provide) is a miss for me there.
Both are rewarding and can provide plenty of "adrenaline". Just depends on who you fight, where and in what ship. In Elite Dangerous I prefer to go out into big combat zones with small ships using fixed guns, with appropriate music blaring. Turning and burning literally never gets old and is one of the most exciting experiences I have in gaming. Add a capital-class ship for extra awesomesauce.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPXrE80S2EI
Yes, their arrival is as epic as it sounds, because it's fairly random. I remember where I was and what I was doing most times when a cap ship entered combat zones I was fighting in. It's just the coolest shit.
Plus, VR (virtual reality). ED has it and it's one of the finest reasons to buy a Vive/Rift. Flying a fighter in Elite Dangerous might change your life and expectations for space sim combat and gameplay in general in the same way that buying your first force feedback racing wheel for Forza/GTA will sour you to the days you played racing sims without one and spoil you to any future sims that don't work with your wheel.
If you're having trouble with the speed of ED, I'd suggest you get a smaller, faster ship. A Courier or Vulture going 400-600m/s should look and feel pretty damn fast. Don't go into SC expecting a better experience in that regard. It's very much a beta product in every sense.
Cabbagehead
Member
Because people with a agenda keep trying to shit it up, every time something "bad" is believed to have happened and certain individuals become 100 percent convinced, that its true.
I'll stop posting responses at this point to that garbage to be honest. Knowing what it is and where it comes from.
Eolz
Member
Beautiful. ATV is going to be good tomorrow. I even think I saw a planet there that hasn't been shown before. The one with mountains, trees and other greenery.
Cabbagehead
Member
It looks pretty rough. So i don't know if it's new or not, since many of the clips they used were a mix between old and new. Looks sweet though.
Full context tomorrow.
iHaunter
Member
You know johnny boy will be playing it. lol
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
Best explanation i could find.
Flight Models:
Star Citizen uses a nearly unrestricted flight system mostly driven from realistic physics calculations with some hand-wavium included where needed for fun purposes. It supports full 6dof with an optional computer assisted (You make the action, the computer will make the equal and opposite to keep you pointed where you want it to) "Decoupled" mode which is full-Newtonian flight.(edited)
E
Combat:
Star Citizen (for the smaller ships which is what we currently have access to) is a pure unadulterated Adrenalin rush of jousting, strafing, flanking, and evading. Current weapon systems include: Fixed guns, manual-aim gimballed guns, Occupied turrets, dumb-fire and lock-on missiles
E
First off, don't read that lol, if you do, bleach it (no offense dude, but come on).
Between the two games the biggest difference is how both look and feel. While SC allegedly uses deep physics behind the ships it tends to look and feel more "arcadey."
While on the other handle Elite doesn't use a very deep physics engine (though things like ship mass effect movement and gravity etc etc) it looks and feels more plausible as ships fly and combat happens.
Flight Dynamics
SC also uses a heavily assisted flight mode with assist layers that course correct to make it fly more like a traditional flight game (coupled). At the same time it also has a layer of assist to limit G-forces to prevent blackout/redout, even tohugh currently those limits do not make sense (g-limit), another layer to limit turning to reduce drift (comstab). Now it does have a decoupled mode which still combines the previous assist layers but reduces the flying like a plane part and allows for off axis flight , although it doesn't fully remove that (you still get drift limiting assist no matter what you turn off). Finally there is another assist layer if you use a stick which deadens your input curve relative of proximity of target to make aiming easier. Though the largest assist layer comes from mouse aiming and using what is called "interactive" mode where the game does a lot course correction for you while you aim the guns to get on target (we'll get to gunnery in a bit).
SC ships can move in every direction the same speed, so up/down/back/forward etc etc all have the same amount of thrust available and each able to boost along any given axis. Pair that with SCs low top speeds (~250 m/s) and very high acceleration you get something that looks and behaves more like an FPS than a traditional flight game. This leads to things like yaw being a main staple to find targets and things like circle strafing and jousting because corrections are easily made and gunnery has a more important role than flying.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ammBK3O_bTk
Elite on the other hand has two basic modes assist on, which makes the ships behave more like aircraft and does things like counter thrust and stabilization to make it more stable to fly. Then there is assist off which completely disables this so you have to travel in vectors using thrust and counter thrust to point in a direction and keep pointing in that direction instead. This extends to roll as well as pitch so every movement you need a counter movement for smooth flight.
Elite does limit ships in two ways for stylistic reasons, they limit yaw to prevent ships battles from becoming yaw turning battles (turreting) and keeping the focus on turn battles and jockeying for position to get a firing solution. Also main engines have the most authority meaning you will travel fastest and quickest in the direction your main thrusters are pointing and acceleration on other planes takes longer than straight line acceleration. Also boost only works for the main thrust.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtD41MRibe4
Combat
Elite has two tiers in combat which is the smaller ships vs the large ships. Small ships tend to be more frenetic and fast when it comes to dog fighting. The larger on the other hands tend to be more naval in nature so it comes down to punching and counter punching with large ships armed with a dozen or so weapons. If I were to help visualize it think large ships look closer to star trek type battles. Elite has a big advantage in being a finished game so there is a lot more depth in combat at the moment, with weapon balance and roles. There is also ship balance so even small ships can have a good chance against larger ships etc etc. Weapon wise there are 3 types guns in the game; fixed which is self explanatory, gimbals which have linited tracking and can be defeated by chaff and reducing ship signature, turreted which is AI controlled (or copilot depending on ship) and tracks with a full range as long as it has view.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQA18gY0rOI
(this one is pretty good around 7 minutes when the freighter deploys a snub fighter so you can see the difference in between smaller ship combat and larger ship combat).
SC, we have to remember isn't finished so a lot of the weapon roles and ship balance doesn't really exist so you'll wild swings on weapon roles and ship roles from patch to patch. SC has come interesting visual flare watching fighting as it reminds me of WW2 combat seeing streams of fire following a ship making hits with large number of bullets. However you get more a twitch combat scenario with extremely quick changes of direction along with gimbals allowing for off bore firing. It has fixed weapons that do more damage but take into account that weapon balance isn't quite implemented in the game yet.
Other games IO would suggest you look at is Everspace for a more arcade but still very cool looking space combat game
http://store.steampowered.com/app/396750/EVERSPACE/
Also House of the Dying Sun, for something closer to Freespace but with 6DoF
http://store.steampowered.com/app/283160/House_of_the_Dying_Sun/
Cabbagehead
Member
Hey!! mines was simple and to the point..maybe a little dated....XD.
Nice breakdowns and caveat.
Hyped.
Cabbagehead
Member
The scale and the LOD :O
https://giant.gfycat.com/GorgeousScalyCoqui.webm
https://giant.gfycat.com/WelcomeSelfishCaudata.webm
https://giant.gfycat.com/GorgeousScalyCoqui.webm
https://giant.gfycat.com/WelcomeSelfishCaudata.webm
Cabbagehead
Member
The ATV goods!
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/6lr8s1/too_many_gifs_12_album_inside/
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1...?key=UTRibVAzWURtSVFmMEFxcDgxSmNZY1ZyWW1IZ1JR
....................................
Note: The low FPS is due to it being QA footage and the game being in alpha.
https://gfycat.com/WelcomeSelfishCaudata
https://gfycat.com/MedicalScientificIntermediateegret
https://gfycat.com/KeyAthleticGaur
https://gfycat.com/SpanishAshamedAustralianshelduck
https://gfycat.com/WellgroomedIdleHoneybee
.............................................
In relation to the Procedural Cities generation tech, they reconfirmed. Now in the past a former Crytek developer that now works at CIG, was developing and put together a functioning tech demo of Procedural City Structures and blocks. The guy that introduced the Crafting Procedural Moons segment. He built the tech video -below- with a partner.
But Crytek never jumped on it. Even though it was super promising and could have been built upon. Mind you that was achieved using a cryengine branch, long time ago at this point. It seems like CIG could be using or doing something similar. Should be interesting to see what they do with creating ”Vast City landscapes" on these land masses.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtC0lpKKE38
http://news.softpedia.com/news/The-...dation-of-the-NYC-Based-Crysis-2-133044.shtml
This episode was crazy. Lots of hard work over the past few years, paying off. Despite what the haters want to believe.
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/6lr8s1/too_many_gifs_12_album_inside/
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1...?key=UTRibVAzWURtSVFmMEFxcDgxSmNZY1ZyWW1IZ1JR
....................................
Note: The low FPS is due to it being QA footage and the game being in alpha.
https://gfycat.com/WelcomeSelfishCaudata
https://gfycat.com/MedicalScientificIntermediateegret
https://gfycat.com/KeyAthleticGaur
https://gfycat.com/SpanishAshamedAustralianshelduck
https://gfycat.com/WellgroomedIdleHoneybee
.............................................
In relation to the Procedural Cities generation tech, they reconfirmed. Now in the past a former Crytek developer that now works at CIG, was developing and put together a functioning tech demo of Procedural City Structures and blocks. The guy that introduced the Crafting Procedural Moons segment. He built the tech video -below- with a partner.
But Crytek never jumped on it. Even though it was super promising and could have been built upon. Mind you that was achieved using a cryengine branch, long time ago at this point. It seems like CIG could be using or doing something similar. Should be interesting to see what they do with creating ”Vast City landscapes" on these land masses.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtC0lpKKE38
http://news.softpedia.com/news/The-...dation-of-the-NYC-Based-Crysis-2-133044.shtml
..........................................
This episode was crazy. Lots of hard work over the past few years, paying off. Despite what the haters want to believe.
You know, I was never fully on board with the whole mobiglass thing. Give me a traditional full-screen menu, I can take the immersion hit for the sake of solid design & functionality. However, it seems to be coming along rather nicely and might just work. De-focusing the background helps a lot with visibility, but it probably won't be enough, as can be seen in the star map segment of the clip. Transparency sliders would be nice.
Cabbagehead
Member
The LOD's are a work in progress, still. Or it was just a bug.
Saw some in some footage i was shown. When i was on my visit. More clean up is needed as well.
Dictator93
Member
I cannot get over the size of the reclaimer. That thing is so big.
Also, RTT on the Mobiglas looks ace. Super wonderful to see how well it integrates with bloom and depth of field. Also, the start up animations make it come alive.
The game actually is set atm to not show an object if there is no LOD generated for an object... it just does not show up! They discussed it as a way for them to identify when and if LODs as part of the LOD chain (for example, LOD 0 and 1 are there, but 2 is not, yet 3 is) are missing.
Also, RTT on the Mobiglas looks ace. Super wonderful to see how well it integrates with bloom and depth of field. Also, the start up animations make it come alive.
The game actually is set atm to not show an object if there is no LOD generated for an object... it just does not show up! They discussed it as a way for them to identify when and if LODs as part of the LOD chain (for example, LOD 0 and 1 are there, but 2 is not, yet 3 is) are missing.
That's reassuring. I was worried it was something wrong with the generation process.
Still look really impressive.
The hard part will be making the ground exploration something worthwhile and avoid making something that impressive only ending up underexploited. You don't want to be able to land very close to most points of interest, it would make those huge planet/moon feel pretty small.
Cabbagehead
Member
Didn't know this thanks.
staticneuron
Member
Cabbagehead
Member
I don't think content creation will be the issue. It's the placement that may be tricky and making it all work together with ships, players, npc's, AI subsumption, an other features. Plus the fairly complex economy. All into one branch is going to be a big task, but given their modular approach to development and making tools that are tailored to handle many task and do it in conjunction with personal/handcrafted content is the sweet spot.
They'll figure it out and the community will be there to speak out and give feedback if it sucks or when it's good. The minute they close out the 3.X builds and head into 4.0. That should be around the time that the process of doing this and other task will be far more refined., easily done and nuanced. Still it would be crazy to try and fill the whole space with content, there's a such thing as over-saturation.
Vigilant Walrus
Member
I think the Item 2.0 interaction system has the potential to make even the most banal and boring sounding fetch/collect missions exciting. In other games you're just pushing a button to do a context sensitive interactions. In this games system you're pulling levers, pressing buttons on the HUD. You're able to pull out cooling modules from heat generators, take out memory modules and engine parts from ships, satelites. You have to physically carry cargo and you have limited space on your ship.
All of these things sounds like the potential for great gameplay through the detail of what goes into it. In other games it'd be boring because you have little interaction. In most MMOs you have a endless wallet. you walk over to the object and put inside your never ending invisible backpack. you loot and interact with everything through a generic process. There is no real gameplay to any of this.
I think that what can really make the game fun is if it has a rock solid AI. I think that is paramount in any good game with action. And that is going to be difficult to pull off. If the AI is challenging but complex enough to allow for different modes of play, so you can engage in a stealthy way, a snipey way, a sneaky hacker way, a gunz blasing way, a mix of rogue'n kick them in the nuts han solo kind of way, I think it will be very rewarding for a lot of players. Even something as simple as attacking a generically spawned outpost in the middle of nowhere.
All of these things sounds like the potential for great gameplay through the detail of what goes into it. In other games it'd be boring because you have little interaction. In most MMOs you have a endless wallet. you walk over to the object and put inside your never ending invisible backpack. you loot and interact with everything through a generic process. There is no real gameplay to any of this.
I think that what can really make the game fun is if it has a rock solid AI. I think that is paramount in any good game with action. And that is going to be difficult to pull off. If the AI is challenging but complex enough to allow for different modes of play, so you can engage in a stealthy way, a snipey way, a sneaky hacker way, a gunz blasing way, a mix of rogue'n kick them in the nuts han solo kind of way, I think it will be very rewarding for a lot of players. Even something as simple as attacking a generically spawned outpost in the middle of nowhere.
Outrun
Member
Will CIG let the economy run unchecked? Or will they provide oversight to prevent mass exploitation?
That all sounds awesome, but that was said back in 2014. I haven't really seen any evidence that complex mission generation like this is being worked on at all. I really hope that plan gets executed on, so these massive moons and planets will actually have a purpose.
staticneuron
Member
They started working on both at the same time. The mission examples were shown off in gamescom 2016 with Miles Eckhart. They have him scheduled as a mission giver for the 3.0 Evocati release. That mission chain demonstration was a big deal. Surprised you missed it.
Cabbagehead
Member
Yeah, you really can't have missed it. Its been pretty much a main stay in the last couple WTV's.
Players will comprise somewhere around 10% of the 'verse's population, with the other 90% being NPCs. So the plan is to let players have a minimal influence on the economy and CIG will have the ability to adjust things as needed. I think I remember someone at CIG even saying that they will also have an economist consulting them on the game's economics.
I believe this is actually quite common in MMOs with player driven economies.
Cabbagehead
Member
3.0 is the build that was and is supposed to introduce that. Can't wait it for and see how it improves after the fact.
staticneuron
Member
The presentation was an example of one mission, not that the mission giver or content was complete. I have a sneaky feeling people wouldn't have been too happy with only one mission that was also missing AI subsumption.
LMAO.
Cabbagehead
Member
Cabbagehead
Member
Meh, anywho.
New aim date:
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/media/3cp5exh00ue8er/source/Aims-7-7-17_2.png
Man game looks so bad, no wonder they need a loan to keep this scam going! (Am I doing it right?)
Where is this gif even from?
Where is this gif even from?
mercenar1e
Member
Meh, anywho.
New aim date:
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/media/3cp5exh00ue8er/source/Aims-7-7-17_2.png
they're going to keep pushing it until well after gamescom. Mid September/October.
SQ42 next year.
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