Star Wars The Last Jedi Spoiler discussion thread: THERE WILL BE UNMARKED SPOILERS!

I don't have any issues with that scene (not trying to start a discussion, I'm genuinely tired of saying anything positive about the movie, because while not at Neogaf but other sites some people have been VICIOUS towards me for liking the film, finally culminating in one poster messaging me that I should just end it all if I'm this delusional. That kind of makes me just stop wanting to talk about it anymore even though I did love the film), but I mean, dumbest movie scene ever? Probably others I could think of if I spent the time, but right off the top of my head how about The Last Airbender where Aang has to spell out to the Earthbenders that, "hey, there's earth all around you! USE IT!!!" and they proceed to do so......by having six of them work together to move a medium-sized rock. WOW. If you hadn't seen the cartoon you would still probably be thinking, "boy, that's dumb", but if you did see the cartoon where they were on a metal ship in the ocean and an Earthbender can move far larger rocks by themselves then the stupidity of the scene is multiplied beyond measure.
 
I don't have any issues with that scene (not trying to start a discussion, I'm genuinely tired of saying anything positive about the movie, because while not at Neogaf but other sites some people have been VICIOUS towards me for liking the film, finally culminating in one poster messaging me that I should just end it all if I'm this delusional. That kind of makes me just stop wanting to talk about it anymore even though I did love the film), but I mean, dumbest movie scene ever? Probably others I could think of if I spent the time, but right off the top of my head how about The Last Airbender where Aang has to spell out to the Earthbenders that, "hey, there's earth all around you! USE IT!!!" and they proceed to do so......by having six of them work together to move a medium-sized rock. WOW. If you hadn't seen the cartoon you would still probably be thinking, "boy, that's dumb", but if you did see the cartoon where they were on a metal ship in the ocean and an Earthbender can move far larger rocks by themselves then the stupidity of the scene is multiplied beyond measure.
Yeah I don't know if it was the "dumbest scene of all-time" because we have 125+ years of movies out there:

Looking beyond the mechanics of opening a door straight to the vacuum of space, it bothered me because that was the line in the sand that said "everything is on the table". Sorta like how La La Land (smartly) starts up with a big, in-your-face musical number to prepare you for the rest of the film, that scene (dumbly) told me to not get emotionally invested in anything that would happen later. It was all of these "gotcha"s and "bet you didn't expect that"s afterwards, and funnily enough I did expect them because that scene told me to.

That's not any kind of challenge for liking the film, though; just my thoughts. I actually liked a lot about the prequels (and love The Clone Wars), so I get what it's like once you have a popular Youtube video rail on something and suddenly everyone has the same opinion.
 
"That's not how the force works." How do you know? Seriously, how much have you seen Jedi or Sith actually do? They can survive being electrocuted for 10 minutes with no clear use of defensive abilities, but can't use the Force to survive a whole minute in space? There's no contrary evidence in the movies and there is evidence of similar powers in the EU. Stop pretending it's not just a vague power you can use to do vaguely limited things. Also, Fin and Rose wasn't bad, it was decent. The problem is how out of place it was. I don't think there's a bad scene, that isn't at least entertaining because of that, aside from Pink Hair Bitch Magoo's face turn, in the movie. You can't have a bad movie that's mostly good and never terrible
 
I'll throw my hat in the ring.

I have to agree that Rouge One is the only one of the new movies that I didn't walk out completely baffled by how bad it was.

Rouge One has some huge issues that really bugged me but it felt like a movie that was part of the universe. It didn't feel completely vapid of what it was trying to represent unlike TFA and TLJ.

When TFA came out I got lamabsted by my circle of friends for saying it was bad.

They all just kept saying it's a set up" movie.

Then TLJ hit and I felt vindicated but also entirely crushed that I couldn't care any less about Star Wars.

TLJ is a Trainwreck from every perspective. Even if you removed the "star wars" out of TLJ it's still a mess from every angle. The characters suck. The plot is boring. And it felt like Rian Johnson was determined to do the opposite of what everybody thought to "take risks."

Leia freaking flew through space. That ACTUALLY happened. That scene is proof Rian Johnson and his team have no clue or reguard to what Star Wars is.

They made a Marvel version of Star Wars. And its depressing.
No offense, the most baffling new Star Wars thing to me is how many people like Rogue One. How do you sit through a story with cardboard characters doing nothing for the most part, stilted acting, hit and miss cinematography and lazy dialog, and call it good because of the last ground battle and the Vader scene?
 
"That's not how the force works." How do you know? Seriously, how much have you seen Jedi or Sith actually do? They can survive being electrocuted for 10 minutes with no clear use of defensive abilities, but can't use the Force to survive a whole minute in space? There's no contrary evidence in the movies and there is evidence of similar powers in the EU. Stop pretending it's not just a vague power you can use to do vaguely limited things. Also, Fin and Rose wasn't bad, it was decent. The problem is how out of place it was. I don't think there's a bad scene, that isn't at least entertaining because of that, aside from Pink Hair Bitch Magoo's face turn, in the movie. You can't have a bad movie that's mostly good and never terrible
Jedi in the prequel trilogy needed special devices to just breathe underwater so yeah Leia doing what she did is pretty out there. That said, adding a new power or twist to what the force is capable off isn't a huge stretch the problem with the ST is they make up too much shit too quickly so it turns the Jedi into superheroes and the force becomes a tool for the writers to practice as much shitty writing as they want because the force can just do anything to make it all work. It's pretty telling that Lucas, a man not known for restraint, made it a point to keep the Jedi fairly restrained in the prequels and all the new force stuff was pretty much an extension of stuff we already saw in the OT outside of the super speed which everyone hated and he backtracked on.
 
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No offense, the most baffling new Star Wars thing to me is how many people like Rogue One. How do you sit through a story with cardboard characters doing nothing for the most part, stilted acting, hit and miss cinematography and lazy dialog, and call it good because of the last ground battle and the Vader scene?
I don't think Rogue One is all that great, but I can give it a pass because it isn't as damaging to my overall perception of Star Wars as TLJ. To draw an illustrative parallel, I would compare Rogue One to "Dragon Quest Builders" and TLJ to "Dragon Quest XI". I don't really care how good Dragon Quest Builders is, and if it has a few fun moments in it, then great. But if Dragon Quest XI sucks, then I would be pissed.
 
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I liked rogue one, force awakens and last Jedi.

But i also like phantom menace, so what do I know.
Like what you like, it's all good. I mean, I think Episode 1 is the weakest of the series but even it has a few good qualities (Darth Maul, the music, and while the CGI dated horribly the actual artistic design is mostly solid). I'm just glad my personal friends also enjoy the new movies as well although one didn't enjoy TLJ but it's hard to discuss Star Wars with him regardless because he constantly misremembers so many things. He was complaining about the lack of Bothans in Rogue One and I had to actually play ROTJ for him to remind him the line was from that movie (and from Mon Mothma who wasn't even in ANH). He complained about Snoke being of normal height in TLJ because he thought TFA actually had Kylo talking to him in person instead of through a hologram. He also seems to assume anyone using lightsabers or similar weapons are automatically Force-sensitive since he was like, "how did Rey and Kylo just beat six Sith?", he assumed the same with Finn in TFA and it took him a while to finally accept Finn was not Force-sensitive. I laughed in my head wondering if he assumed Han was Force-sensitive since he used a lightsaber at the start of ESB).
 
I don't think Rogue One is all that great, but I can give it a pass because it isn't as damaging to my overall perception of Star Wars as TLJ. To draw an illustrative parallel, I would compare Rogue One to "Dragon Quest Builders" and TLJ to "Dragon Quest XI". I don't really care how good Dragon Quest Builders is, and if it has a few fun moments in it, then great. But if Dragon Quest XI sucks, then I would be pissed.
Rogue One is the only Star Wars movie that I felt was a waste of money
 
Jedis in the prequel trilogy needed special devices to just breathe underwater so yeah Leia doing what she did is pretty out there. That said, adding a new power or twist to what the force is capable off isn't a huge stretch the problem with the ST is they make up too much shit too quickly so it turns the Jedi into superheroes and the force becomes a tool for the writers to practice as much shitty writing as they want because the force can just do anything to make it all work. It's pretty telling that Lucas, a man not known for restraint, made it a point to keep the Jedi fairly restrained in the prequels and all the new force stuff was pretty much an extension of stuff we already saw in the OT outside of the super speed which everyone hated and he backtracked on.
I mean, they were underwater for a long time and didn't know how long theyd be under. Also, speaking of bad writing, the Skywalkers ARE superheroes compares to the average Jedi
 
Like what you like, it's all good. I mean, I think Episode 1 is the weakest of the series but even it has a few good qualities (Darth Maul, the music, and while the CGI dated horribly the actual artistic design is mostly solid). I'm just glad my personal friends also enjoy the new movies as well although one didn't enjoy TLJ but it's hard to discuss Star Wars with him regardless because he constantly misremembers so many things. He was complaining about the lack of Bothans in Rogue One and I had to actually play ROTJ for him to remind him the line was from that movie (and from Mon Mothma who wasn't even in ANH). He complained about Snoke being of normal height in TLJ because he thought TFA actually had Kylo talking to him in person instead of through a hologram. He also seems to assume anyone using lightsabers or similar weapons are automatically Force-sensitive since he was like, "how did Rey and Kylo just beat six Sith?", he assumed the same with Finn in TFA and it took him a while to finally accept Finn was not Force-sensitive. I laughed in my head wondering if he assumed Han was Force-sensitive since he used a lightsaber at the start of ESB).
Yeah, for sure.

I like E1 because it seems to have a more focused story to me. I liked it a lot when it came out, and it did wane somewhat, but not to the extent of pure hatred.

Force Awakens for me is perhaps the most unimaginative, but it's at least enjoyable and very rewatchable of the newer movies. Rogue One is pretty much just a fanfic come to life, but I appreciate it for that. Last Jedi has its moments, and also its problems, but I still liked it ok. I also appreciate it being so subversive, as a sort of counter to Force Awakens.
 
Man, always surprised so many people are so tepid on Rogue One. Yeah the characters don't get a ton of depth, but it's a heist movie carried out by a motley crew. How much depth do characters normally get in such a film? And I think the important characters get enough depth to make it work, and push the film ahead between set pieces (even if the film does drag in places; some uneven pacing would be probably my biggest complaint).

It has lots of "candy" for fans like Vader (god damn that Vader scene), Bail, Mon Mothma, Ackbar, Tarkin, etc. The sets and visual look, costumes, etc, are all great. And the entire Scarif sequence is awesome in nearly every way. Now, in a vacuum, maybe it can still be argued TFA and TLJ are better films, but for me what puts Rogue One ahead is that it does what it was supposed to do, and does not carry with it the weight of expectations of carrying the Star Wars saga into the future. That inherent burden on the sequel trilogy is hurting it so far.
 
All the Disney Star Wars films up till this point have been trash, but TLJ, that one takes the cake.
I think Kylo's line to Rey conveys it all: "Let the past die. Kill it if you have to. That's the only way to become what you were meant to be."

Whoever was (in charge of) making this movie, they really hated Star Wars man. They shat all over it. Everything that was established, the world, all the characters, they either just don't care about them, or straight up seem to hate them. At this point I just treat the new movies as bad Disney fanfic.
 
I mean, they were underwater for a long time and didn't know how long theyd be under. Also, speaking of bad writing, the Skywalkers ARE superheroes compares to the average Jedi
Not really, in the original six films Anakin and Luke didn't do all that much outside of what the other Jedi were capable of. Luke certainly didn't and Anakin wasn't all that flashy in his feats as most of his stuff was fairly understated especially compared to Yoda and Sidious.
 
Not really, in the original six films Anakin and Luke didn't do all that much outside of what the other Jedi were capable of. Luke certainly didn't and Anakin wasn't all that flashy in his feats as most of his stuff was fairly understated especially compared to Yoda and Sidious.
Anakin saved the day as a child, built a droid as a kid, programmed with near infinite languages, and after, like 10-15 years of training, was able to go toe to toe with a Jedi Master considered one of the better Jedi to ever live. Then after losing his limbs and being put in a shitty suit, he was able to hunt down the Jedi that survived Order 66, including Masters and ex-Masters.

Then Luke became strong enough in months to overpower Vader. After doing something no one thought possible in his first ever space battle, being able to land what would usually be a crippling blow against Vader after practically no training. Not to mention his canon comic feats
 
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Weird so many people got so pissy about this movie. It does all the Star Wars things, it just makes you take an extra step to get there. The only thing I could possibly see people reasonably bothered with is Rey's parentage, but "everything revolves around the Skywalkers" has been a complaint for years, and literally every force user ever shown in all the movies and Clone Wars/Rebels came from "nobodies" except for Luke/Leia/Kylo Ren.

Otherwise it was Star Wars as hell. The worst part, something to actually complain about, is that it left the series in the safest, most boring place it could go: The small band of rebels on the run from the Empire, a young inexperienced Jedi being their only hope.
 
Anakin saved the day as a child, built a droid as a kid, programmed with near infinite languages, and after, like 10-15 years of training, was able to go toe to toe with a Jedi Master considered one of the better Jedi to ever live. Then after losing his limbs and being put in a shitty suit, he was able to hunt down the Jedi that survived Order 66, including Masters and ex-Masters.

Then Luke became strong enough in months to overpower Vader. After doing something no one thought possible in his first ever space battle, being able to land what would usually be a crippling blow against Vader after practically no training. Not to mention his canon comic feats
Anakin saving the day was all luck as he got shot down and ended up by in a position to take out the control ship purely by chance and it really wasn't anything Obi-Wan couldn't have done. Building a droid as a kid isn't a huge deal especially since he was working for Watto. I'd have to watch TPM again but I don't think they mention him knowing all those languages yet. Those were probably added in later when he served Padme or Antilles. Either way, it's not like Anakin would have spoken all those languages himself even if had programmed them.

Anakin does show plenty of skill but he still got tooled by Dooku, the first time, and Obi-Wan. Still, the point is he never really shows any abilities that far beyond his contemporaries and the same goes for Luke even if he was an especially quick learner. We can't say one way or the other about that since the only other force prodigies we see in the films are Rey and Anakin. He's a far slower learner than Rey and comparing him to Anakin is awkward since we don't see him do typical Jedi stuff until after his training.

The Skywalker men for all their moments of triumph have just as many, if not more, failures so I don't see them being put on any higher pedestal than the hero of a story is expected to inhabit.

Comics, "canon" or not, don't mean jack shit in regards to how the characters, the force, and the world have been portrayed in the films. There is a pretty clear disconnect to how Lucas approached the force in the original six films and how the new films approach it. Absolutely anything can happen at any time by anybody in the sequel trilogy which wasn't really the case in the original films. Whether that's good thing or a bad thing is another issue.
 
I just wanted to point out that TLJ made about 6-700 million less than TFA. Also, Jumanji had surpassed it and kept past it for several weeks. Yeah it made bank but this has to give Disney pause. The repeat viewership just wasn’t there.

(As an aside, I saw TFA, Rogue one 3 times each when they came out. I’ve seen TLJ once and plan to keep it that way.)
 
Jumanji? It made like 930 million, Last Jedi made 1,330 million. Unless you mean it's surpassed how much during a particular weekend. Regardless, it still made a heck of a profit and grossed more than Rogue One.

I admit I will be bitter if Johnson's trilogy is canceled because of fan reaction (especially since it's sketchy how many negative reactions there actually were since we know the RT audience rating isn't trustworthy due to what happened, glad they at least were able to stop that other attempt with Black Panther). Like you don't TLJ, fine, but of course those who didn't don't have to go see the other trilogy (since it's supposed to be its own separate thing) and it just robs the trilogy from those of us who would like to have seen it.

Also, CoolNameGuy has a point and it's why I take issue with how the word Mary Sue never seemed to pop in SW movies discussion until Rey appeared. Anakin in 1 is FAR more of a Mary Sue. A 9 year old who (despite being a slave so one would think he would only have so much free time) can build his own podracer, win his first race ever against seasoned pros (and also having a disadvantage due to Sebulba messing with Anakin's podracer), also built a droid in his spare time that just happens to be C-3PO, has the potential to surpass Yoda himself, is the center of a massively important prophecy, can fly a Naboo starfighter reasonbly well even though that is NOT podracing no matter how much he says it is (also must have been designed for a short pilot...) although granted I take the same issue with Luke instantly being able to fly a X-wing just because he's flown other vehicles off-screen (I guess all types of flying vehicles handle exactly the same in Star Wars), and pretty much gets to win the entire war by himself (irrelevant if it was "luck", he still single-handedly takes down every enemy that isn't Darth Maul. Also, we know what Obi-Wan says about luck...). Like WOW. Sure, we knew Vader was strong, but at a reasonable level. He tones down the Mary Sue levels in 2 and 3 (but the exact same thing can be said about Rey in 8, and Rey didn't even score that high on the Mary Sue test when I put her through it anyway) but wow was that way too much in 1.
 
Jumanji? It made like 930 million, Last Jedi made 1,330 million. Unless you mean it's surpassed how much during a particular weekend. Regardless, it still made a heck of a profit and grossed more than Rogue One.

I admit I will be bitter if Johnson's trilogy is canceled because of fan reaction (especially since it's sketchy how many negative reactions there actually were since we know the RT audience rating isn't trustworthy due to what happened, glad they at least were able to stop that other attempt with Black Panther). Like you don't TLJ, fine, but of course those who didn't don't have to go see the other trilogy (since it's supposed to be its own separate thing) and it just robs the trilogy from those of us who would like to have seen it.

Also, CoolNameGuy has a point and it's why I take issue with how the word Mary Sue never seemed to pop in SW movies discussion until Rey appeared. Anakin in 1 is FAR more of a Mary Sue. A 9 year old who (despite being a slave so one would think he would only have so much free time) can build his own podracer, win his first race ever against seasoned pros (and also having a disadvantage due to Sebulba messing with Anakin's podracer), also built a droid in his spare time that just happens to be C-3PO, has the potential to surpass Yoda himself, is the center of a massively important prophecy, can fly a Naboo starfighter reasonbly well even though that is NOT podracing no matter how much he says it is (also must have been designed for a short pilot...) although granted I take the same issue with Luke instantly being able to fly a X-wing just because he's flown other vehicles off-screen (I guess all types of flying vehicles handle exactly the same in Star Wars), and pretty much gets to win the entire war by himself (irrelevant if it was "luck", he still single-handedly takes down every enemy that isn't Darth Maul. Also, we know what Obi-Wan says about luck...). Like WOW. Sure, we knew Vader was strong, but at a reasonable level. He tones down the Mary Sue levels in 2 and 3 (but the exact same thing can be said about Rey in 8, and Rey didn't even score that high on the Mary Sue test when I put her through it anyway) but wow was that way too much in 1.
Just curious, what exactly do you see in Rian Johnson that makes him better than other directors? Is it just his preference for strong female characters? That's something that can be replicated by other directors as well. Or simply the fact he likes to subvert and say "f you" to traditional Star Wars tropes?
 
Man, always surprised so many people are so tepid on Rogue One. Yeah the characters don't get a ton of depth, but it's a heist movie carried out by a motley crew. How much depth do characters normally get in such a film? And I think the important characters get enough depth to make it work, and push the film ahead between set pieces (even if the film does drag in places; some uneven pacing would be probably my biggest complaint).

It has lots of "candy" for fans like Vader (god damn that Vader scene), Bail, Mon Mothma, Ackbar, Tarkin, etc. The sets and visual look, costumes, etc, are all great. And the entire Scarif sequence is awesome in nearly every way. Now, in a vacuum, maybe it can still be argued TFA and TLJ are better films, but for me what puts Rogue One ahead is that it does what it was supposed to do, and does not carry with it the weight of expectations of carrying the Star Wars saga into the future. That inherent burden on the sequel trilogy is hurting it so far.
The negative reaction some have to Rogue One baffles me as well. And funny enough most of them love TLJ. I wonder why. Rogue One to me is about as "Star Wars-sy" you can get without rewatching the original trilogy. If imitation was flattery, Rogue One was a love poem to the original Star Wars. And TLJ is like the exact opposite.
 
Just curious, what exactly do you see in Rian Johnson that makes him better than other directors? Is it just his preference for strong female characters? That's something that can be replicated by other directors as well. Or simply the fact he likes to subvert and say "f you" to traditional Star Wars tropes?
Well, for one thing he's the first SW director to actually plan in exploring something that is unconnected to the OT/PT. I also just thought it was directed very well (not surprising, this is the same man who made a little episode called "Ozymandius" for a little show called Breaking Bad, which was arguably the best episode of an incredible show) and there's a lot of visually great shots to admire (Luke observing Rey using her lightsaber, Leia staring ahead on Crait before the door is shut, Holdo's ship ramming at lightspeed, Luke standing defiantly before all the AT-ATs, etc.) Also, I don't see it as much of a "f you" as just trying something new. Rey just being her own person and not yet another "no, your father and/or mother were super important" character is a breath of fresh air. Luke just being a cynical grouch was an interesting take (kinda reminded me of Jolee from KOTR) and no I don't think it's ridiculous that he considers FOR A SECOND about killing Ben if it might prevent another massive war that will claims millions, if not billions, of lives. Like, how many more Alderaans do we need? I don't think Kylo killing Snoke was that shocking, I actually predicted it before the movie came out because Kylo wants to be like Vader and where did Vader's story end? Killing Palpatine. However, I knew they wouldn't just repeat the same redemption angle and it would just lead Kylo further into the dark side. I mean, I just love the movie, and even its lower points, like the casino parts (which really don't take up that much screentime) I consider decent not terrible.

I don't think he's necessarily one of the best modern directors, but I think canning his trilogy would be a massive waste.
 
Jumanji? It made like 930 million, Last Jedi made 1,330 million. Unless you mean it's surpassed how much during a particular weekend. Regardless, it still made a heck of a profit and grossed more than Rogue One.
Jumanji is the sequel to a modest hit from the 90s and Star Wars is the biggest franchise in movie history. The fact that Jumanji had the legs that it did and closed in on TLJ is just insane. TLJ making more than Rogue One is also a given because people expected more out of a mainline film and the last mainline film ended on a cliffhanger.

With that said, I don't think Disney is in the state of panic that a lot of people think. TLJ's whole thesis of "killing off the old" is meta to the extent that they really don't care how much they anger the old, "Ultra-Passionate Fans". Even as someone who hated TLJ, I think a lot of us older fans really over-estimate how much we mean to Disney beyond the obligatory, feel-good montage of Star Wars Celebration, telling us that Star Wars is a cross-generational event (much like they've marketed Disney World). They'll make a lot of money.

It's also completely cool if you like it and look forward to Johnson's new trilogy. I just think we need to acknowledge that a lot of people have hopped ship and just how you're not dumb for liking TLJ, they're not all minority hating misogynists with Russian Twitter bots for hating it.
 
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There are clearly plenty of people who hated/disliked TLJ, I just think those who liked it may be a larger percentage than some of us are assuming. It's just odd that the RT score is the way it is but the IMDb score is at 7.4/10. Yeah, I know sites can differ (you'd think mother! was one of the worst films ever according to CinemaScore but naturally other sites beg to differ) but still a 7.4/10 on one of the biggest movie websites would suggest the amount of people who hated/disliked the film is not as massive as some people are claiming it is.
 
Well, for one thing he's the first SW director to actually plan in exploring something that is unconnected to the OT/PT. I also just thought it was directed very well (not surprising, this is the same man who made a little episode called "Ozymandius" for a little show called Breaking Bad, which was arguably the best episode of an incredible show) and there's a lot of visually great shots to admire (Luke observing Rey using her lightsaber, Leia staring ahead on Crait before the door is shut, Holdo's ship ramming at lightspeed, Luke standing defiantly before all the AT-ATs, etc.) Also, I don't see it as much of a "f you" as just trying something new. Rey just being her own person and not yet another "no, your father and/or mother were super important" character is a breath of fresh air. Luke just being a cynical grouch was an interesting take (kinda reminded me of Jolee from KOTR) and no I don't think it's ridiculous that he considers FOR A SECOND about killing Ben if it might prevent another massive war that will claims millions, if not billions, of lives. Like, how many more Alderaans do we need? I don't think Kylo killing Snoke was that shocking, I actually predicted it before the movie came out because Kylo wants to be like Vader and where did Vader's story end? Killing Palpatine. However, I knew they wouldn't just repeat the same redemption angle and it would just lead Kylo further into the dark side. I mean, I just love the movie, and even its lower points, like the casino parts (which really don't take up that much screentime) I consider decent not terrible.

I don't think he's necessarily one of the best modern directors, but I think canning his trilogy would be a massive waste.
The problem with this whole unconnected notion is that this is EPISODE 8, not some spin-off. People expect the story to continue. A great place for RJ to branch off would have been on his OWN trilogy. Fucking up our continuation mid-story just plain sucks.

I would have to agree with you that there are a lot of great shots in TLJ (all the ones you mentioned for instance), unfortunately they are tied to a very uninteresting story. There are many great shots in Batman vs Superman, but I still think that movie is horrible.

I don't have a problem with someone trying something "new", the problem is that most of TLJ isn't really new or innovative. Mixing up elements from ESB and RotJ isn't any worse than TFA and ANH. The difference is that RJ replaced the expected with the uninteresting. So Rey is no one, that is fine, end of story. So Rey and Kylo kill Snoke, that is also fine, end of story. So Luke is a hermit, that is fine, he force projects and dies at the end, we are done.

Most of what you said is fine, and I can see where you are coming from. I don't think those elements "ruin" the movie. HOWEVER, the way Luke is treated in TLJ is nothing short of character assassination. We have an entire trilogy of Luke and his development, the 180 he pulls in TLJ is completely unjustified, unsupported and downright ridiculous. I have written about this extensively so I won't repeat myself. The character itself is not a problem, the problem is they made Luke Skywalker that character, which disregards EVERYTHING we know about Luke so far.

Killing Ben because of perceived darkness is an INSANE leap for anyone, much more so for Luke Skywalker. So Luke's reasoning is that there is darkness in Ben so he thinks about killing him in his sleep, however upon failing he decides to run away and disappear and let the so-called darkness go unchecked? That is some fascinating logic right there.

I don't think Kylo killing Snoke is shocking or even necessarily bad, it is just that it really goes nowhere. Kylo is basically the new Snoke, minus an apprentice. We aren't really given a new interesting direction here. Snoke was at least mysterious, we wanted to know more about him and his powers. I can accept that he gets killed, but what we are left with is just plain dull.

The casino part and everything having to do with Finn and Rose is horrible in my eyes. A tangential plot that goes nowhere, makes no sense and on top of everything is littered with bullshit propaganda. If they deleted it, the film would have been better off. Everyone I know who has watched the movie more than once always calls Canto Bight the perfect time for a bathroom break.

I don't want you to think that I am dismissing your opinion or telling you that you should not like the movie. I am glad that you were able to enjoy it. I can also understand that you are looking forward to the new RJ SW trilogy. At the same time, I feel like those of us who did not enjoy the movie need to voice our opinions. If we do not, we will get more of the same. I don't wan't to take the RJ SW trilogy from you or people who enjoyed TLJ. But if Disney moves forward with the RJ trilogy, then there won't be a separate trilogy for those of us who do not like TLJ. If Disney funds RJ, than means something else will not get funded. I personally have ZERO interest in anything Star Wars by RJ, I think they need new direction over there, but that is just me.
 
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I don't think it's ridiculous that he considers FOR A SECOND about killing Ben if it might prevent another massive war that will claims millions, if not billions, of lives.
I think it's ridiculous Yoda (nor any of the other force ghosts) never bothered to show up when Luke was going to confront Ben. Somehow he finds the time to do it when he has to set a tree on fire, but preventing a mistake that could have grave consequences for the entire galaxy? Nahh, Yoda pressed the snooze button that time. Heck, how did this situation even happen in the first place? Ben idolized Darth Vader, but he could have just shown up as a ghost and explained that, no, the dark side is actually not as cool as it looks. Nothing in this film makes any fucking sense. The entire foundation for this new trilogy is wobbly. Every other idiotic thing that happens is just another story on top. No wonder it collapsed as time went on.

That's why I don't understand why people are mad about Snoke dying or Rey's heritage. Who the fuck cares dude? You telling me you actually cared about these cardboard cut-outs? From the start Snoke was a dumb cgi puppet they pulled from their ass because they needed a bad guy where none existed. Rey has always been a boring character. She's done nothing to make me care about her, so why should I care about her parents?

I can think of tons of tiny things that just baffled me. Like Snoke telling Kylo Ren to take off his "ridiculous helmet", after which Kylo smashes it because he's upset his master said it was dumb. Dude, did you forget? Half the fucking characters in the movie wear helmets. The throne room is filled with guards with helmets, your entire army consists of people with helmets. There's even different ones for the engineers and stuff. The fuck are you on about? I could just imagine the writer saying to the audience: "All the cool designs and characters you idolize? They're dumb. I'm making a movie about people, not super heroes and villains hidden behind masks. Fuck your helmets, fuck your aliens, fuck your robots and fuck your Star Wars. It's something different now. Star Wars no longer belongs to you." What a load of shit.
 
Just curious, what exactly do you see in Rian Johnson that makes him better than other directors? Is it just his preference for strong female characters? That's something that can be replicated by other directors as well. Or simply the fact he likes to subvert and say "f you" to traditional Star Wars tropes?
What tropes were subverted really, though?

Luke still trained Rey and sacrificed himself to let the good guys escape, just like Obi Wan in ANH
The tiny band of rebels somehow managed to escape the Empire again and embarrass the big bad guy in front of everyone
An "indestructible" weapon/ship thing is easily destroyed
A bad guy turned on a bigger bad guy, the most Sith thing possible
The bad guy tried to get the good gal to turn to his side
The good gal tried to get the bad guy to turn to her side
The cocky, risk taking pilot starts to mature
The sketchy smuggler/criminal dude turns on the good guys
Stupid CGI animals
A shocking parental swerve
A big bad with no background given
A planet with one theme and appearance (salt world, kind of like an ice planet or something)
 
Just got finished watching it for the first time. Kind of a let down. It felt like they threw in super unnecessary jokes like every 5 min. The purple hair lady was..... :confused: Honestly there wasn't much new or exciting. And WTF at that little kid at the end just randomly. Half the movie felt like a promotion for some toy line or theme park ride, I dunno. 6/10
 
The kid was pretty clearly thematic reinforcement of the idea that one doesn't have to come from special parentage to be a Jedi, that Rey will lead a new era of Jedi, and the rebellion, as small and out numbered as it seems now, will grow. The spark that lights the fire that burns down the New Order or whatever. The kid at the end is the one Rose freed and gave the resistance ring to. The story of what happened is getting out across the galaxy and inspiring the next generation to continue the fight.
 
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The kid was pretty clearly thematic reinforcement of the idea that one doesn't have to come from special parentage to be a Jedi, that Rey will lead a new era of Jedi, and the rebellion, as small and out numbered as it seems now, will grow. The spark that lights the fire that burns down the New Order or whatever. The kid at the end is the one Rose freed and gave the resistance ring to. The story of what happened is getting out across the galaxy and inspiring the next generation to continue the fight.
That would be kind of cool to see, but how they are going to do that in the next movie? Are they doing a 10-year time skip like they did between TPM and AOTC? It would feel kind of jarring since there was zero time skip between TFA and TLJ.

Again this just reeks of total lack of any sort of planning.
 
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The problem with this whole unconnected notion is that this is EPISODE 8, not some spin-off. People expect the story to continue. A great place for RJ to branch off would have been on his OWN trilogy. Fucking up our continuation mid-story just plain sucks.

I would have to agree with you that there are a lot of great shots in TLJ (all the ones you mentioned for instance), unfortunately they are tied to a very uninteresting story. There are many great shots in Batman vs Superman, but I still think that movie is horrible.

I don't have a problem with someone trying something "new", the problem is that most of TLJ isn't really new or innovative. Mixing up elements from ESB and RotJ isn't any worse than TFA and ANH. The difference is that RJ replaced the expected with the uninteresting. So Rey is no one, that is fine, end of story. So Rey and Kylo kill Snoke, that is also fine, end of story. So Luke is a hermit, that is fine, he force projects and dies at the end, we are done.

Most of what you said is fine, and I can see where you are coming from. I don't think those elements "ruin" the movie. HOWEVER, the way Luke is treated in TLJ is nothing short of character assassination. We have an entire trilogy of Luke and his development, the 180 he pulls in TLJ is completely unjustified, unsupported and downright ridiculous. I have written about this extensively so I won't repeat myself. The character itself is not a problem, the problem is they made Luke Skywalker that character, which disregards EVERYTHING we know about Luke so far.

Killing Ben because of perceived darkness is an INSANE leap for anyone, much more so for Luke Skywalker. So Luke's reasoning is that there is darkness in Ben so he thinks about killing him in his sleep, however upon failing he decides to run away and disappear and let the so-called darkness go unchecked? That is some fascinating logic right there.

I don't think Kylo killing Snoke is shocking or even necessarily bad, it is just that it really goes nowhere. Kylo is basically the new Snoke, minus an apprentice. We aren't really given a new interesting direction here. Snoke was at least mysterious, we wanted to know more about him and his powers. I can accept that he gets killed, but what we are left with is just plain dull.

The casino part and everything having to do with Finn and Rose is horrible in my eyes. A tangential plot that goes nowhere, makes no sense and on top of everything is littered with bullshit propaganda. If they deleted it, the film would have been better off. Everyone I know who has watched the movie more than once always calls Canto Bight the perfect time for a bathroom break.

I don't want you to think that I am dismissing your opinion or telling you that you should not like the movie. I am glad that you were able to enjoy it. I can also understand that you are looking forward to the new RJ SW trilogy. At the same time, I feel like those of us who did not enjoy the movie need to voice our opinions. If we do not, we will get more of the same. I don't wan't to take the RJ SW trilogy from you or people who enjoyed TLJ. But if Disney moves forward with the RJ trilogy, then there won't be a separate trilogy for those of us who do not like TLJ. If Disney funds RJ, than means something else will not get funded. I personally have ZERO interest in anything Star Wars by RJ, I think they need new direction over there, but that is just me.
Oh no, Luke is a character than changes based on events now
 

EviLore

Expansive Ellipses
There are clearly plenty of people who hated/disliked TLJ, I just think those who liked it may be a larger percentage than some of us are assuming. It's just odd that the RT score is the way it is but the IMDb score is at 7.4/10. Yeah, I know sites can differ (you'd think mother! was one of the worst films ever according to CinemaScore but naturally other sites beg to differ) but still a 7.4/10 on one of the biggest movie websites would suggest the amount of people who hated/disliked the film is not as massive as some people are claiming it is.
Revenge of the Sith was in the Top 250 iirc.
 
That would be kind of cool to see, but how they are going to do that in the next movie? Are they doing a 10-year time skip like they did between TPM and AOTC? It would feel kind of jarring since there was zero time skip between TFA and TLJ.

Again this just reeks of total lack of any sort of planning.
I don't think the kid was meant to be like....this specific kid is going to do something special. Just showing that the resistance is growing and the Jedi will continue.
 
I think it's ridiculous Yoda (nor any of the other force ghosts) never bothered to show up when Luke was going to confront Ben. Somehow he finds the time to do it when he has to set a tree on fire, but preventing a mistake that could have grave consequences for the entire galaxy? Nahh, Yoda pressed the snooze button that time. Heck, how did this situation even happen in the first place? Ben idolized Darth Vader, but he could have just shown up as a ghost and explained that, no, the dark side is actually not as cool as it looks. Nothing in this film makes any fucking sense. The entire foundation for this new trilogy is wobbly. Every other idiotic thing that happens is just another story on top. No wonder it collapsed as time went on.

That's why I don't understand why people are mad about Snoke dying or Rey's heritage. Who the fuck cares dude? You telling me you actually cared about these cardboard cut-outs? From the start Snoke was a dumb cgi puppet they pulled from their ass because they needed a bad guy where none existed. Rey has always been a boring character. She's done nothing to make me care about her, so why should I care about her parents?

I can think of tons of tiny things that just baffled me. Like Snoke telling Kylo Ren to take off his "ridiculous helmet", after which Kylo smashes it because he's upset his master said it was dumb. Dude, did you forget? Half the fucking characters in the movie wear helmets. The throne room is filled with guards with helmets, your entire army consists of people with helmets. There's even different ones for the engineers and stuff. The fuck are you on about? I could just imagine the writer saying to the audience: "All the cool designs and characters you idolize? They're dumb. I'm making a movie about people, not super heroes and villains hidden behind masks. Fuck your helmets, fuck your aliens, fuck your robots and fuck your Star Wars. It's something different now. Star Wars no longer belongs to you." What a load of shit.
I tend to hate arguing little points, because I understand that's not really the issue you have, but rather one of many. However, I kind of want to chime in anyway - Snoke was mostly just belittling Kylo, as he always does - play the tough mentor, then the accepting one - a tactic used to wear him down. But on top of that, it wasn't so much about the helmet itself, but why Kylo wanted to wear it, which was that he was a Darth Vader wannabe - and wearing the mask doesn't make him Darth Vader, as much as he wanted to be. For the rest of the first order, the helmets are part of the uniform - for Kylo, it was about trying to live up to something he was not.
 
Jumanji? It made like 930 million, Last Jedi made 1,330 million. Unless you mean it's surpassed how much during a particular weekend. Regardless, it still made a heck of a profit and grossed more than Rogue One.
Yes that is what I meant. Of course it made more, but it should have owned every weekend leading up to Black Panther. Repeat viewership wasn’t there and it shows. Watch the Blu-ray and digital sales in a few months. It’ll follow the same downward trend. Also, TLJ did Solo no favors. People are going to be super skeptical now. Especially the more casual fans like me. (I define casual as someone who only enjoys the movies and hasn’t read an of the EU books or watched the tv shows).

As far as why I think the movie sucked (why thank you for asking lulz), I have the same problem most of the other critics have, but I actually think the movie could have been saved by ending on a cliff hanger much the way ESB did. End it right at Luke staring down the walkers and cut to credits. Then hand baton off to another director and say “have fun”.
 
If it was a stand alone movie, I thought it was OK, except for the stupid casino planet. Lose Rose and Fin, no need for either in the movie. But as a stand alone film, if i'd never seen star wars before, i'd give it an 8/10.

As part of a trilogy, with an entire previous trilogy of back stories and the complete disregard for anything built up in the previous movie (Snooky, Maz: "Who's the girl?" , the Knight's of Ren etc) I'd say it is the worst 2nd act to a trilogy ever created in the history of Cinema. It showed complete contempt for the fans, the lore, the characters and the previous movie. It' s like "there you go JJ, everything you built up to i have unraveled and shat all over, good luck managing to wrap up a trilogy after I've reset the story"

As part of a trilogy I'd give it a 1/10 - for the effects.

PS - Poe was reprimanded and demoted for destroying the Dreadnaught - which would have cost billions of credits, contained tens if not hundreds of thousands of military personel, as well as military hardware, fighters, weaopns and supplies, at the cost of a hundred rebels anbd a handful of ships. - In reality we call that a military victory; See Assault on the Death Stars 1 & 2 and Starkiller Base aplus any against all odds victory in the history of real life warfare.

PPS - the time line between the start of the TFA and the end of TLJ is about 5 days. - Rey went from no use of the force to beating Luke in 5 days?? Yeah, no Mary Sue here, folks...

Good god they need to sack Kennedy..
 
I pretty much hate everyting they've done with the sequel trilogy. Yes, TLJ is a horrible movie and a terrible Star Wars movie but I already gave up on the sequel trilogy after TFA.

We have waited more than 30 years to finally see the continiuation of the legendary original trilogy and all we got was these two shitbags.

After 30 years of reading the EU books, playing the EU games and making up theories. I mean there were pretty horrible EU ideas like cloning the Emperor and whatnot but there were many excellent stuff as well.

I'm not saying they should've copied them, or pay service to people's head canon but at least they could've borrowed ideas from them instead of just rehashing EP4 and resetting everything back like the original trilogy never happened. And then finally destroying everything with TLJ.

Fuck them.
 
PS - Poe was reprimanded and demoted for destroying the Dreadnaught - which would have cost billions of credits, contained tens if not hundreds of thousands of military personel, as well as military hardware, fighters, weaopns and supplies, at the cost of a hundred rebels anbd a handful of ships. - In reality we call that a military victory; See Assault on the Death Stars 1 & 2 and Starkiller Base aplus any against all odds victory in the history of real life warfare.

PPS - the time line between the start of the TFA and the end of TLJ is about 5 days. - Rey went from no use of the force to beating Luke in 5 days?? Yeah, no Mary Sue here, folks...
You do realize the Resistance is far outnumbered by the First Order and careful attrition should be one of their primary strategies not charging in with all they've got. The percentages of losses they sustained losing the bomber fleet was clearly higher than the percentage of losses the First Order sustained based on Leia's reaction (and Snoke as well since he was more furious about the Resistance escaping and once he learned they were tracking them he was overjoyed and clearly couldn't care less that the Dreadnaught was lost). Their goal was to retreat and reassemble and then taking on a Dreadnaught could be feasible with likely less casualties. They also BARELY destroyed the Dreadnaught, if Paige hadn't regained consciousness in time Poe's attack would have been nothing but losses for the Resistance. And before anyone points out that the Dreadnaught not being attacked would have resulted in it also following them through lightspeed and annihilating them, Poe obviously did not know about the lightspeed tracking at that time so that had nothing to do with his decisions. He disobeyed his superiors which resulted in the deaths of numerous fellow soldiers. A demotion was to me a light punishment, I think most military leaders would have put him in the brig for a while but obviously Leia needed all soldiers available at the moment.

Okay, come on. Like it's just frustrating people just somehow are seeing things that aren't there. Rey fights Luke with her staff against a stick he Force grabs with. Rey has been using her staff for who knows how many years while Luke probably hasn't fought anyone in years. Plus Luke is fighting with one hand while Rey uses both. AND YET LUKE STILL WINS AND DISARMS HER. Rey only wins the overall fight because she then draws the lightsaber and I'm pretty sure the rule of lightsaber > stick doesn't make Rey a Mary Sue.
 
You do realize the Resistance is far outnumbered by the First Order and careful attrition should be one of their primary strategies not charging in with all they've got. The percentages of losses they sustained losing the bomber fleet was clearly higher than the percentage of losses the First Order sustained based on Leia's reaction (and Snoke as well since he was more furious about the Resistance escaping and once he learned they were tracking them he was overjoyed and clearly couldn't care less that the Dreadnaught was lost). Their goal was to retreat and reassemble and then taking on a Dreadnaught could be feasible with likely less casualties. They also BARELY destroyed the Dreadnaught, if Paige hadn't regained consciousness in time Poe's attack would have been nothing but losses for the Resistance. And before anyone points out that the Dreadnaught not being attacked would have resulted in it also following them through lightspeed and annihilating them, Poe obviously did not know about the lightspeed tracking at that time so that had nothing to do with his decisions. He disobeyed his superiors which resulted in the deaths of numerous fellow soldiers. A demotion was to me a light punishment, I think most military leaders would have put him in the brig for a while but obviously Leia needed all soldiers available at the moment.

Okay, come on. Like it's just frustrating people just somehow are seeing things that aren't there. Rey fights Luke with her staff against a stick he Force grabs with. Rey has been using her staff for who knows how many years while Luke probably hasn't fought anyone in years. Plus Luke is fighting with one hand while Rey uses both. AND YET LUKE STILL WINS AND DISARMS HER. Rey only wins the overall fight because she then draws the lightsaber and I'm pretty sure the rule of lightsaber > stick doesn't make Rey a Mary Sue.
But they did destroy the Dreadnought... And why would the general have called it off anyway? And at what point did Leia order the bomber fleet back? Those things were slow as fuck and took about 45 minutes to get to the Dreadnought and she never called off the assault. And how many resistance fighters were left after the attack? They didn't say, I'd wager a fair few to keep those star ships running. And wasn't it old Purple hair's "need to know" plan that lead to most of them getting blown up on the way to the salt planet?

Re Rey: I guess being gaf, I should have elaborated there. She went from no idea of the force to besting Luke (and Kylo) and everything in-between (mind trick, lifting rocks, force pull, sword fighting etc), in 5 days. Who showed her? No, just no. And then she's just "a nobody daughter of some junkers swapped for some drinks" Yep, cause that's how it worked in the previous 6 movies. And I didn't say she beat the cr@p out of him, lightsaber or not, she would have had no chance against him, the same way she had no chance against Snooky,

It's like me going from never picking up a guitar to beating Steve Vai in a guitar duel in under a week. It's ridiculous. It's just terrible writing and disrespectful to the franchise.

I understand you like it, But I, like many others, I thought it was a terrible movie full of "WTF are they doing" moments. I don't know how JJ is going to Salvage this turd, not that he's the best person for it either... I just hope all this shit doesn't put my Star Wars collection into negative equity.
 
But on top of that, it wasn't so much about the helmet itself, but why Kylo wanted to wear it, which was that he was a Darth Vader wannabe - and wearing the mask doesn't make him Darth Vader, as much as he wanted to be. For the rest of the first order, the helmets are part of the uniform - for Kylo, it was about trying to live up to something he was not.
Darth Vader isn't the only one wearing a mask in the movies. You could just as easily say Ben was a Boba Fett fanboy; He wore a mask too. There's probably all kinds of advantages to wearing helmets and masks in the SW universe, otherwise people wouldn't be doing it en masse. Heck, Snoke probably provided the mask to Ben, how'd he get it otherwise?
I understand what they were going for, but it just doesn't mesh with the world they've built up till now.

And leaving the story out of it for a bit, what does this whole thing give us? Well, Kylo Ren is just a dude in a black suit now. That's our new villain. Darth Maul was a total non-character as well, he had no personality or motivations whatsoever, but at least he looked cool and had a cool weapon. Kylo's mask was somewhat cool looking, I could imagine the kids wanting that action figure. Now though? He's just a guy in a black dress. It's like Count Dooku all over again, only worse. Nothing imaginative about him. Just boring and lame. Just like all the other characters they came up with: Pink hair lady, some Asian female engineer, a dude in a coat. Fantastic designs.
 
Darth Vader isn't the only one wearing a mask in the movies. You could just as easily say Ben was a Boba Fett fanboy; He wore a mask too. There's probably all kinds of advantages to wearing helmets and masks in the SW universe, otherwise people wouldn't be doing it en masse. Heck, Snoke probably provided the mask to Ben, how'd he get it otherwise?
I understand what they were going for, but it just doesn't mesh with the world they've built up till now.

And leaving the story out of it for a bit, what does this whole thing give us? Well, Kylo Ren is just a dude in a black suit now. That's our new villain. Darth Maul was a total non-character as well, he had no personality or motivations whatsoever, but at least he looked cool and had a cool weapon. Kylo's mask was somewhat cool looking, I could imagine the kids wanting that action figure. Now though? He's just a guy in a black dress. It's like Count Dooku all over again, only worse. Nothing imaginative about him. Just boring and lame. Just like all the other characters they came up with: Pink hair lady, some Asian female engineer, a dude in a coat. Fantastic designs.
Boba fett is not the heir to then skyealker lineage - again, it wasn't about the mask itself it was why he wanted to wear it.

At any rate I'm not against the mask. In fact, I think it's cool and it would be awesome if kylo in ep9 started wearing it again as a big FU to snoke.
 
I think it's ridiculous Yoda (nor any of the other force ghosts) never bothered to show up when Luke was going to confront Ben. Somehow he finds the time to do it when he has to set a tree on fire, but preventing a mistake that could have grave consequences for the entire galaxy? Nahh, Yoda pressed the snooze button that time. Heck, how did this situation even happen in the first place? Ben idolized Darth Vader, but he could have just shown up as a ghost and explained that, no, the dark side is actually not as cool as it looks. Nothing in this film makes any fucking sense. The entire foundation for this new trilogy is wobbly. Every other idiotic thing that happens is just another story on top. No wonder it collapsed as time went on.

That's why I don't understand why people are mad about Snoke dying or Rey's heritage. Who the fuck cares dude? You telling me you actually cared about these cardboard cut-outs? From the start Snoke was a dumb cgi puppet they pulled from their ass because they needed a bad guy where none existed. Rey has always been a boring character. She's done nothing to make me care about her, so why should I care about her parents?

I can think of tons of tiny things that just baffled me. Like Snoke telling Kylo Ren to take off his "ridiculous helmet", after which Kylo smashes it because he's upset his master said it was dumb. Dude, did you forget? Half the fucking characters in the movie wear helmets. The throne room is filled with guards with helmets, your entire army consists of people with helmets. There's even different ones for the engineers and stuff. The fuck are you on about? I could just imagine the writer saying to the audience: "All the cool designs and characters you idolize? They're dumb. I'm making a movie about people, not super heroes and villains hidden behind masks. Fuck your helmets, fuck your aliens, fuck your robots and fuck your Star Wars. It's something different now. Star Wars no longer belongs to you." What a load of shit.
This nails a lot of issues. TLJ is just terrible. It is a bad movie from a movie POV and it is horrific to anyone that has been a fan. The big middle finger thrown at you the whole time you are watching is amazing. I honestly don't see how anyone can legitimately defend anything done in this movie. The writer/director even managed to actively avoid great ideas and move forward with trash. These people had to work hard to make this movie suck as bad as it did.