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Star Wars VII doesn't respect the original trilogy (spoilers)

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Let's be blunt. Luke was trained by basically the two greatest Jedis.

Taking a look at the first one. He was only able to deflect them once and with ObiWan guiding him. Even Luke didn't know what he was feeling. As Hand said, it was just luck. It was his first time tapping into that power.

Taking a look at the space battle. They make note in the film that Luke is already an exceptional pilot on Tatoonie and the trench run is something he's done before back home. It is also noted that his father was a strong jedi and the best pilot in the clone wars from Obi Wan. Who then is only capable of using the force again with Obi Wan guiding him. The jump you have to take is piloting skills are transferable between land and air in this case.

Empire. That was something he did on his own. He's most likely been practicing on his own and discovering, probably with some Obi Wan Ghost help.

Everything onwards was completing his training with Yoda.

The OT did everything pretty damn well in this regard. They set up his continual growth through the help of others and mentioning his previous skill set.

Comparing it to Rebels, it makes sense too. Luke comes from the strongest Jedi family. Being trained by two of the greatest Jedis of all time. The guy training Ezra was barely above a Padawan.

His training as shown was rather lacking, which remains the point. Luke didn't know what he was feeling, just given vague guidelines to reach for the Force by Obi-Wan. This is also true of Rey.

How exactly is a moisture farm boy getting amazing flying experience? (Most of that extra background is given in extra material; the T-16 Skyhopper became super common in, despite the fact that you rarely see another one. And it was later made into an Incom vehicle, to tie it to the X-Wings.) There was no build-up in the film for it. Just a single mention of any piloting whatsoever, which hadn't been part of the character until the moment it was needed. What do you have for Rey? A life as a scavenger giving her engineering skills, a clear love of piloting and Skywalker in particular (the helmet and Skywalker doll), and illustrated staff fighting skills.

On Empire, you filled in the blanks. That's the extra thought needed. You jive with the character and as such, you're filling in small logic holes like that.

Rey is as well fleshed out in her skillset as Luke and Anakin were before her. Vaguely mention or illustrate expertise and let the Force fill in the gaps. They've done largely the same due diligence when it comes to character seeding. The worse case we have for Rey is the mind trick, which like Luke's with calling his lightsaber in Empire, is largely handwaved away as "they were desperate and they tried something". Everything else? Given the rules of Star Wars' heroes and the Force, it perfectly fits.

Honestly, the most unbelievable parts of the OT (post-PT release) and TFA is that people think the Jedi are a myth.

The OT has so many more quite, slow dialog scenes and imo is much better for it.

Huh. I... well. I got nothing for this. I simply disagree completely.
 
I have not seen the new movie, and after reading your OP, I do not want to. It sounds fucking terrible. (I saw all of the previous 6 in the cinemas, and i hated 1-3).
In fact, they may be more powerful than ever, given that their new Death Star -cough- Starkiller Base can destroy a whole bunch of planets at once with the power of the sun! How did a crumbling Empire acquire the resources for such a project without being noticed? How could Leia fail to address the issue of Starkiller Base before its completion?
This is the bit that really rubbed me the wrong way.
 
I have not seen the new movie, and after reading your OP, I do not want to. It sounds fucking terrible. (I saw all of the previous 6 in the cinemas, and i hated 1-3).

This is the bit that really rubbed me the wrong way.

Or you could go see the movie and form your own opinion about it. But it seems you've already made your mind up.
 
So let me understand this...

You wanted her to be even better at fighting? That would have made her less of a Mary Sue?

Embracing the force is a fucking staple of the damn series ... Do you even like Star Wars?

She had a natural mele talent which allowed her to repel and defend against Ren and then my calming herself and embracing the force it allowed her to use her natural fighting skills and go on the offense, which if you watched freaked out Ren even more causing him to be even less confident because he wasn't expecting that at all.

Had Ren wanted to kill her and not been injured and been a better trained more proficient lightsaber dueler, he'd have probably done so even after she embraced the Force, but he didn't and he was and he isn't, ergo a little force power was enough to turn the tide.
Characters have never embraced the force to win fights against trained users of the force, in fact they have almost always died after doing so case in point, Quigon Gin and Obi Wan, so that point has always been bullshit. Those natural fighting that suddenly allow her to overcome an oponent she was struggling to even maintain ground on and was in fact about to die against if he didn't at the last second decided to try to convert her and then allowed her to commune with the force.

It's the most standard battle deus ex machina in the book, and trope all by itself, I'm wondering why your struggling to accept this. This is something that's done thousands of times in various poorly written action stories and it was awful in every single one.
 
Question time: Did Rey ever tell Finn that she was waiting for her parents on Jakku? And if it was such a traumatic moment, why didn't we see her parents in her flashback?
 
Question time: Did Rey ever tell Finn that she was waiting for her parents on Jakku? And if it was such a traumatic moment, why didn't we see her parents in her flashback?

Obviously there is some significance to her abandonment on Jakku. They can't just dump everything in the first movie, Rey's backstory is a source of intrigue for the next film.
 
Obviously there is some significance to her abandonment on Jakku. They can't just dump everything in the first movie, Rey's backstory is a source of intrigue for the next film.

But those are her parents. She clearly remembers them, but we only see the ship leaving. Doesn't that seem off?
 
OP your biggest mistake is to think TFA is a sequel to Lucas Star Wars. It isnt. It's merely a bastardization of the creator's work in order to relaunch a brand and a new set of merchandise. It gives zero fucks about the past characters, its relationships and it's pathos. They are merely accessories for the shitty copy-plotting Disney had in mind for this pic.

It's time for you to let it go. The Star Wars you grew up with is dead and buried.
 
But those are her parents. She clearly remembers them, but we only see the ship leaving. Doesn't that seem off?

Does she clearly remember them? I've only seen the movie once but my interpretation was that she doesn't really remember what happened too well. She has a vague notion that her family promised to come back for her but she never specifically mentioned a mother, father, brother etc, unless I'm mistaken. She was very young when she was left behind.

'Who left her on Jakku?' was the most obvious plot thread they left dangling for VIII.
 
If she remembers them leaving her, then I think she'll remember them.

She remembers being abandoned, but nothing on screen in TFA told us she remembers any more than that. I'm sure that we will get some kind of ROTJ style 'somehow I've always known' if Luke or Han end up being her father.
 
She remembers being abandoned, but nothing on screen in TFA told us she remembers any more than that

She was remembering all kinds of stuff in that forceback, though. Luke putting his hand on R2, Kylo and the Knights of Ren, Coruscant, but nothing about her parents. They're withholding a major part of Rey's backstory for another movie and it hurts TFA.
 
She was remembering all kinds of stuff in that forceback, though. Luke putting his hand on R2, Kylo and the Knights of Ren, Coruscant, but nothing about her parents. They're withholding a major part of Rey's backstory for another movie and it hurts TFA.

it could be precognition instead of something which has happened in the past.
 
OP your biggest mistake is to think TFA is a sequel to Lucas Star Wars. It isnt. It's merely a bastardization of the creator's work in order to relaunch a brand and a new set of merchandise. It gives zero fucks about the past characters, its relationships and it's pathos. They are merely accessories for the shitty copy-plotting Disney had in mind for this pic.

It's time for you to let it go. The Star Wars you grew up with is dead and buried.
Sounds like you're talking about the prequels lol
 
Rey is automatically good at everything she does including fixing some shit Han couldn't on his own ship. Complete Mary Sue and uninteresting.

Finn was a far better/realistic character. I liked Poe, too. Just a charismatic dude. I wanna see where this duo goes.

OP's points are all spot on but that didn't stop me from enjoying the film.

And it's OK when 85+% of male characters are automatically good at everything they do?

This isn't even counting the other fallacies in your post, eg Han being a shit mechanic, Rey having plenty of backstory about being a great mechanic, etc.

Luke force pulled the lightsaber to himself on Hoth without having been taught that was even possible yet. He hadnt met Yoda and only knew the force was something to help you focus. Some of the criticisms aren't even thought out.

Yeah

OP your biggest mistake is to think TFA is a sequel to Lucas Star Wars. It isnt. It's merely a bastardization of the creator's work in order to relaunch a brand and a new set of merchandise. It gives zero fucks about the past characters, its relationships and it's pathos. They are merely accessories for the shitty copy-plotting Disney had in mind for this pic.

It's time for you to let it go. The Star Wars you grew up with is dead and buried.

It's not a bastardisation at all.

It's just leaving them in the dust.

Which is the right thing to do for the series to move forward.

I have not seen the new movie, and after reading your OP, I do not want to. It sounds fucking terrible. (I saw all of the previous 6 in the cinemas, and i hated 1-3).

This is the bit that really rubbed me the wrong way.

Just watch the movie.

OP is going off on one. Everyone I've met – including super-harsh critics like my old-school father – think it is really good.

The film is great and no plot-heavy film doesn't have plot holes.
 
Sorry i haven't read the entire thread so i don't know if this point has been made before.

But isn't there some implication that Rey isn't just picking up the Force for the first time, but that she was a Jedi trainee? We never see her parent but she could have been abandoned and had her memory wiped to stop Kylo Ren from finding her and killing her like the rest of the trainees? I also saw a while back something saying that she was wearing trainee like clothing in the flashback where she was abandoned.

I do agree on the point about Starkiller Base though. How can anyone not know about if before the movie? It would take ages to build and someone would surely be keeping an eye out for what the old Empire people were up to.

Also, it seemed like a bit of a silly weapon right? It's a stationary planet so could only destroy planets close to it?
 
OP your biggest mistake is to think TFA is a sequel to Lucas Star Wars. It isnt. It's merely a bastardization of the creator's work in order to relaunch a brand and a new set of merchandise. It gives zero fucks about the past characters, its relationships and it's pathos. They are merely accessories for the shitty copy-plotting Disney had in mind for this pic.

It's time for you to let it go. The Star Wars you grew up with is dead and buried.
Again with the whole "Disney ruined Star Wars" narrative, because apparently that's easier for people who didn't like The Force Awakens to accept than Lucasfilm not making the movie they wanted.
Also, it seemed like a bit of a silly weapon right? It's a stationary planet so could only destroy planets close to it?
  • This isn't shown very well in the movie, but Starkiller Base isn't stationary. Since it has to use nearby suns as fuel, it also has to travel between solar systems, likely with a hyperdrive. It's not just a planet, it's the largest spaceship to ever appear in Star Wars.
  • Starkiller Base's weapon is acknowledged as "a hyperspace weapon" or something of the like in the movie. It can fire through hyperspace to reach distant planets.
 
OP your biggest mistake is to think TFA is a sequel to Lucas Star Wars. It isnt. It's merely a bastardization of the creator's work in order to relaunch a brand and a new set of merchandise. It gives zero fucks about the past characters, its relationships and it's pathos. They are merely accessories for the shitty copy-plotting Disney had in mind for this pic.

It's time for you to let it go. The Star Wars you grew up with is dead and buried.
I'm sorry, what was fucked about the past relationships?

Also, Lucas' Star Wars was only good when people challenged him. We got three movies of Lucas' unquestioned vision of Star Wars and they were dogshit. Even ROTJ didn't come out unscathed. Disney did just fine moving forward, while also going back to ground zero Star Wars to get a whole other generation back on their side for what comes next.
 
I have not seen the new movie, and after reading your OP, I do not want to. It sounds fucking terrible. (I saw all of the previous 6 in the cinemas, and i hated 1-3).

This is the bit that really rubbed me the wrong way.

Well that's idiotic. The OP is part of a small irrational minority of people
 
The thing that bugged me the most about this film was the near total lack of explanation of how the Empire were able to get back to power. Say what you want about the prequels but they at least tried to explain how it is that fascism can arise out of democracy, which is also perhaps a more interesting theme for our times. Here it's just like the rebels won 30 years ago but the Republic just fell asleep while the Empire rebuilt a massive army somewhere else. How did they fund this? Why doesn't the Republic have an army of its own? Why were all the Republic's important cities completely undefended?
 
OP your biggest mistake is to think TFA is a sequel to Lucas Star Wars. It isnt. It's merely a bastardization of the creator's work in order to relaunch a brand and a new set of merchandise. It gives zero fucks about the past characters, its relationships and it's pathos. They are merely accessories for the shitty copy-plotting Disney had in mind for this pic.

It's time for you to let it go. The Star Wars you grew up with is dead and buried.

I always laugh at people saying that 'NOW Starwars has sellout'
Like the fucking prequel trilogy wasn't about the whole brand going beyond the same 3 movies and giving new toy designs to sell.
If anything there's more integrity in how Disney handle StarWars than before when Lucas was selling out his franchise in the most bizarre ways.
Seriously how did they follow the super successful Star Wars?
With the holiday special of course!
And about the new one not giving a fuck about characters, relationship and pathos?
Where the fuck have you been in the last decade?
Did you fell out of your cryostat and didn't know that we actually had episode 1 to 3 or something?
 
All of them? Especially Leia-Solo, and that ham-fisted daddy issues.

?

The only past relationships carried over from previous films were Han and Chewie being buddies... which they still are, and Han and Leia's marriage not working out, which... I mean, is hardly uncommon or unrealistic. You're shocked that a romance between a roguish bad boy and a former princess/diplomat/military leader maybe didn't work out? Or you're surprised that Han maybe wasn't the best dad?

This feels like the most interesting progression of those relationships.
 
All of them? Especially Leia-Solo, and that ham-fisted daddy issues.

Han and Leia's entire relationship was basically built around them bonding by way of them being together in distressed situations, not traditional human bonding. Are you honestly surprised they didn't work out in the end? And even then, they didn't work out because they had a son who turned into Neo Darth Vader, not necessarily because of their differences as people.
 
Indeed. There is nothing redeemable in the prequel trilogy, the only good was that we got the redlettermedia reviews.

Now that's not true... A handful of good John Williams tracks, some nice designs (horribly implemented into the movies with dated cg and awkward compositing), and atleast we finally saw a Fett be sorta cool.

...it ends there though.
 
Well that's idiotic. The OP is part of a small irrational minority of people

Disliking a movie is not irrational. TFA has problems. Some problems may not bother some people. That's fine.

That said, calling people irrational for disliking the movie, or pointing out problems in it, is channeling the worst part of the star wars fanbase.
 
OP your biggest mistake is to think TFA is a sequel to Lucas Star Wars. It isnt. It's merely a bastardization of the creator's work in order to relaunch a brand and a new set of merchandise. It gives zero fucks about the past characters, its relationships and it's pathos. They are merely accessories for the shitty copy-plotting Disney had in mind for this pic.

It's time for you to let it go. The Star Wars you grew up with is dead and buried.

lol shit reads like a parody.
 
We are to assume that no one in the entire galaxy, with the republic and the rebels being in control of everything after ROTJ, NO ONE was able to see or stop the new empire to become even more powerful than the old empire. This shit is ridiculous.

The First Order isn't more powerful than the Old Empire. It's a fragment group that basically 9/11'd the New Republic capitol.
 
Now that's not true... A handful of good John Williams tracks, some nice designs (horribly implemented into the movies with dated cg and awkward compositing), and atleast we finally saw a Fett be sorta cool.

...it ends there though.

Yeah, I haven't seen the prequels in ages and that music is still stuck in my head.
 
The First Order isn't more powerful than the Old Empire. It's a fragment group that basically 9/11'd the New Republic capitol.

They hardly 9/11'd it. They obliterated it and several other of the Republic's cities with apparently the most powerful weapon in the history of the galaxy.
 
Indeed. There is nothing redeemable in the prequel trilogy, the only good was that we got the redlettermedia reviews.
Honestly, nothing against you, but whenever someone says this, I can't help but think they have never even seen any of the prequels and just let the Internet form their opinion for them.
 
The First Order isn't more powerful than the Old Empire. It's a fragment group that basically 9/11'd the New Republic capitol.

in the films, the death star represented the pinnacle of the empire's military dominance. the first order built something that made it look like a potato gun.

classic case of JJ desperately trying to one-up the OT in that brain dead way that modern films seem mandated to do, to the detriment of the film world's authenticity.

jurassic world is the perfect parallel for TFA.
 
They hardly 9/11'd it. They obliterated it and several other of the Republic's cities with apparently the most powerful weapon in the history of the galaxy.

What I mean is that, like al Qaeda, people knew they were out there causing trouble, but no one knew that they were capable of something of that scale and everyone was caught completely off guard.

So yes, the First Order built a superweapon, which seems to be their expertise, but aside from that, how big are they? What is their reach? Do they have any other tricks up their sleeves? How many systems do they have control over?

in the films, the death star represented the pinnacle of the empire's military dominance. the first order built something that made it look like a potato gun.

I saw the Starkiller Base as "You may have beaten us down, but look what we can still do."
 
The thing that bugged me the most about this film was the near total lack of explanation of how the Empire were able to get back to power. Say what you want about the prequels but they at least tried to explain how it is that fascism can arise out of democracy, which is also perhaps a more interesting theme for our times. Here it's just like the rebels won 30 years ago but the Republic just fell asleep while the Empire rebuilt a massive army somewhere else. How did they fund this? Why doesn't the Republic have an army of its own? Why were all the Republic's important cities completely undefended?

The movie is a mess because they wanted to avoid explaining politics in the film, which is ridiculous when it has always played a large role in the series.

Everything about the Resistance and the New Order makes little to no sense once you actually think about it. Why in the world would the New Republic leave the safety of the galaxy to a ragtag resistance that only has around 10 X-wings on hand? Ridiculous.
 
in the films, the death star represented the pinnacle of the empire's military dominance.

the first order built something that made it look like a potato gun.

classic case of JJ desperately trying to one-up the OT in that brain dead way that modern films seemed to mandated to do, to the detriment of the narrative.

After the Empire built one Death Star over the course of two decades, they built the second over the span of two years. Move forward 30 more years, and I'm sure some Imperial/First Order engineers could've made afew tweaks and innovations in their approach for making doomsday weapons.
 
What I mean is that, like al Qaeda, people knew they were out there causing trouble, but no one knew that they were capable of something of that scale and everyone was caught completely off guard.

So yes, the First Order built a superweapon, which seems to be their expertise, but aside from that, how big are they? What is their reach? Do they have any other tricks up their sleeves? How many systems do they have control over?

Where do they get the means to build such a weapon and army? The original Empire arose out of the Republic. It took over the Republic's infrastructure and army and wealth from the inside.
 
in the films, the death star represented the pinnacle of the empire's military dominance. the first order built something that made it look like a potato gun.

Eh, it's 30 years later, tech improves and who knows if the Empire was already in planning stages for something like that.

I took the Starkiller as an expensive way for the First Order to quickly prove they are even better than the mighty Empire. The New Republic should have finished them off but instead they got timid and left the Empire to rebuild and rebrand and the Starkiller was their coming out party.
 
in the films, the death star represented the pinnacle of the empire's military dominance. the first order built something that made it look like a potato gun.

classic case of JJ desperately trying to one-up the OT in that brain dead way that modern films seem mandated to do, to the detriment of the film world's authenticity.

jurassic world is the perfect parallel for TFA.

Episode 8 confirmed to have Galaxy Killer. Giant round thing as big as a solar system that kills galaxies.
 
You can tell the Republic/Resistance had no idea what they were up against just from the look on Poe's face as he's taken to be interrogated. He was stunned by the scale of their operation.
 
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