Support NeoGAF

[alb@tros]

You may be the only space lover in existence who would find 30 planets across much of an entire galaxy believable.

I just know that if they had only 30 planets, we'd have hundreds of posts pointing out how many planets are in NMS.

People will always complain. For me the is not the number of planet but it's what you can do on those planets that really matter. 30 planets with plenty things to do it's enough for me

 

[Montauk]

I'm sick of this obsession with immersion. Does anybody care about gameplay anymore?

Does anybody care about a series of mechanics, rules and fail/win states that create a GAME?

There are people who seriously thought this was going to be some essentially magical combination of NMS and Star Citizen but also an actual proper RPG?

What planet are you broadcasting from? How do you think that is achievable?

Games aren't about being a simulation of reality. Games are fundamentally about systems. Chess isn't a good game because it's realistic - it's because it's a good game!

Jesus I feel like I'm going crazy.

 

[Heisenberg007]

Is 30 minutes even long enough to get past character creation in Skyrim?

I continued on the PS5.

But even then, I did not go very far in the game. I just didn't enjoy it and dropped it fairly soon.

 

[Montauk]

Sorry, but that's not an excuse.

You're making a "next-gen exclusive" immersive RPG game and charging $70 for it. Loading screens while opening a door or climbing a ladder is not what you'd expect from it just because of vague "game engine problems."

How engines work affects….how engines work. What are you talking about?

 

[Guilty_AI]

I'm sick of this obsession with immersion. Does anybody care about gameplay anymore?

Does anybody care about a series of mechanics, rules and fail/win states that create a GAME?

Games aren't about being a simulation of reality. Games are fundamentally about systems. Chess isn't a good game because it's realistic - it's because it's a good game!

Just a heads up that this isn't a good point in favor of any Bethesda game, if thats what you wanted to do.

 

[Gavon West]

We're back to this?

No 2 games are the same. No Man's Sky also does so many things that Starfield doesn't. The point is the game needs to do whatever it is doing well.

Instead of defending and calling others salty losers and flaming console wars, demand better. Or, at the very least, stop demonizing people from demanding better and voicing their opinions. The only one salty and overly defensive here is you.

Remember this is not your hype thread.

Bro....you haven't even played the game. How do you demand better from a game you haven't even played yet? I'd say go touch grass but, you havent even SEEN the grass in Starfield, let alone touched grass in the game. Lol. Why not save your critique until you've AT LEAST sniffed the game case. Holy....

 

[Heisenberg007]

Ironically, making an expansive space game with travel between lots of Star systems and yet only 100 planets would require an even more steep suspension of belief.

I understand different preferences, but I'd personally have preferred the "quality over quantity" approach. It's the same principle that Ubisoft applies: they make huge worlds, but they are all very empty and bland.

If it was a resources issue (human or technical), I'd personally have preferred if Bethesda had spent those resources only creating ~100 or so planets (and a few systems) that are dense and really meaningful.

More importantly, I'd have preferred if the planets were all accessible directly and seamlessly -- landing on and taking off the planets seamlessly -- no boundaries on planets, no loading screens while climbing ladders, etc. That is just my preference.

Stealing items from a well-guarded security station, fighting off soldiers who are chasing you, then taking off your ship, flying into space (while the soldiers chase you in their own ships) and culminating that battle into space in a dog fight would have been so cool and felt properly next-gen to me!

 

[Montauk]

Just a heads up that this isn't a good point in favor of any Bethesda game, if thats what you wanted to do.

Nah, that isn't what I wanted to do. I'm talking about this obsession, rather than being some brand ambassador for Xbox or Bethesda (lol!).

This insane obsession with what they call immersion is fundamentally limiting on games can be and it directs focus away from what fundamentally makes for a good game.

Right near the start of RDR2 you go into a house and look through a cabinet and there's all these exquisitely modelled objects in there that you slowly take out and examine with excellent detailed animations.

It's also boring as shit and takes forever. It serves no purpose except for the developers to flex how detailed they can make things. It isn't gameplay, it's a waste of my time and it achieves nothing.

Like everything else in the seemingly endless, molasses-slow first few hours of that game it does not make for good gameplay at all.

You guys are lost. Lost.

 

[Montauk]

I understand different preferences, but I'd personally have preferred the "quality over quantity" approach. It's the same principle that Ubisoft applies: they make huge worlds, but they are all very empty and bland.

If it was a resources issue (human or technical), I'd personally have preferred if Bethesda had spent those resources only creating ~100 or so planets (and a few systems) that are dense and really meaningful.

More importantly, I'd have preferred if the planets were all accessible directly and seamlessly -- landing on and taking off the planets seamlessly -- no boundaries on planets, no loading screens while climbing ladders, etc. That is just my preference.

Stealing items from a well-guarded security station, fighting off soldiers who are chasing you, then taking off your ship, flying into space (while the soldiers chase you in their own ships) and culminating that battle into space in a dog fight would have been so cool and felt properly next-gen to me!

I have a preference for the magical too; shame it's impossible.

 

[adamsapple]

For reference, this is the load time that's causing the latest concern.

 

[Montauk]

For reference, this is the load time that's causing the latest concern.

Phil Spencer has just announced that Starfield has been cancelled. And rightfully so.

 

[Operations66]

So much concern in this thread.. LOL

Sorry, haters - Xbox isn't going to die just yet!

 

[Raven77]

I'm sick of this obsession with immersion. Does anybody care about gameplay anymore?

Does anybody care about a series of mechanics, rules and fail/win states that create a GAME?

There are people who seriously thought this was going to be some essentially magical combination of NMS and Star Citizen but also an actual proper RPG?

What planet are you broadcasting from? How do you think that is achievable?

Games aren't about being a simulation of reality. Games are fundamentally about systems. Chess isn't a good game because it's realistic - it's because it's a good game!

Jesus I feel like I'm going crazy.

For some, these games are all about exploration. So seeing somewhere you want to get to on the distance, running into an invisible wall, then re-landing next to where you just were only to have the thing you were trying to get to disappear is, well, disappointing.

It's not that hard of a concept to grasp.

 

[timothet]

Games aren't about being a simulation of reality. Games are fundamentally about systems. Chess isn't a good game because it's realistic - it's because it's a good game!

Comparing chess to videogames when talking about importance of immersion... that's a new one.

 

[Montauk]

For some, these games are all about exploration. So seeing somewhere you want to get to on the distance, running into an invisible wall, then re-landing next to where you just were only to have the thing you were trying to get to disappear is, well, disappointing.

It's not that hard of a concept to grasp.

I've walked around on planets in NMS. It is mind-numbingly boring and there is no gameplay to speak of.

This is an RPG.

What would the gameplay purpose of having a perfect seamless globe that talks I dunno hours to walk around and find yourself back at the same spot?

How would you put enough or even any stuff in that huge space to make it something interesting to do?

How you achieve that technically? To what end?

Again, this is an RPG. That should give you expectations of how it will be structured and what will be possible in it. They're trying to make an RPG, not a universe simulator.

 

[roosnam1980]

For reference, this is the load time that's causing the latest concern.

that was quick , i would have liked if the screen did not fade to black for a second there but still very fast loading

 

[ManaByte]

Sorry, haters - Xbox isn't going to die just yet!

 

[Montauk]

Comparing chess to videogames when talking about importance of immersion... that's a new one.

You can apply it to anything you like. I'm not fully immersed in Outer Wilds - it's not at all realistic - but it's still absolutely one of the best games I've ever played.

You're missing the point if you don't get the comparison.

 

[Disciple of MSSP]

 

[Montauk]

For some, these games are all about exploration. So seeing somewhere you want to get to on the distance, running into an invisible wall, then re-landing next to where you just were only to have the thing you were trying to get to disappear is, well, disappointing.

It's not that hard of a concept to grasp.

These games? Very vague. What games? Which specific games are both like this (Starfield) and like whatever titles you're talking about?

Who has managed to combine what you're apparently missing from NMS here, with a complex RPG?

Can you list these titles?

I understand what you're fantasising about, but you're talking as if this is stuff that has been done or is easily achieved. Like Bethesda could have just easily made what you're imagining?

So where are the other examples?

Even then, if you got what you wanted, what would be the point of it? I look at Star Citizen and I think "what is the point of all of this, where is the game?"

So you can see a point on the horizon and you can go there oh your ship. Or you can walk there and it takes, I dunno, 2 hours.

Why? What's the point? What will be there? What will be on the way? How will you replicate any of this on 1000 planets or 100?

What is the gameplay purpose in an RPG of looking at a spot miles away and walking there for 2 hours?

It sounds like it's purely so you can say "it's possible" and then you feel "immersed" and then…..what?

 

[GnomeChimpsky]

For reference, this is the load time that's causing the latest concern.

I dunno, I'm an "immersion gamer" myself but that stuff never really bothered me.

 

[MidGenRefresh]

For reference, this is the load time that's causing the latest concern.

The whole Direct is heavily edited. They use cuts and at one point even use console commands to level up quicker.

Starfield is build with current gen in mind so hopefully loading is super fast, like in the edit. Fallout 4 was absolute garbage, even on PC. Going from downtown Boston to small buildings (and then back out) took so long that I just stopped exploring these spaces.

 

[Ozriel]

I understand different preferences, but I'd personally have preferred the "quality over quantity" approach. It's the same principle that Ubisoft applies: they make huge worlds, but they are all very empty and bland.

Bethesda's choices have nothing to do with 'quantity over quality'. They've made multiple worlds and cities that are dense and handcrafted, with more NPCs and lines of dialogues than any other game they've made.

It would be truly immersion breaking if space was completely empty. Realistically, you'll encounter thousands of planets in the segment of the Galaxy they're basing the game on. 1000 was a reasonable compromise.

to summarize, it's misinformation to claim the worlds in Starfield are 'bland and empty'

If it was a resources issue (human or technical), I'd personally have preferred if Bethesda had spent those resources only creating ~100 or so planets (and a few systems) that are dense and really meaningful.

I don't think you understand the sheer complexity of executing 100 handcrafted planets that are densely populated worlds. That's how you end up with a game that never comes out.

In a game set in 2333 or so, it's also not credible to expect hundreds of planets settled and densely populated by humans.

More importantly, I'd have preferred if the planets were all accessible directly and seamlessly -- landing on and taking off the planets seamlessly -- no boundaries on planets, no loading screens while climbing ladders, etc. That is just my preference.

Stealing items from a well-guarded security station, fighting off soldiers who are chasing you, then taking off your ship, flying into space (while the soldiers chase you in their own ships) and culminating that battle into space in a dog fight would have been so cool and felt properly next-gen to me!

Yes, that would have been cool. And we already knew a year ago that you wouldn't be able to fly from space and land where you want. Not sure why that's being brought up now.

I expect the game to have its own share of thrilling set pieces anyway.

 

[timothet]

that was quick , i would have liked if the screen did not fade to black for a second there but still very fast loading

Wouldn't it make more sense to implement actual airlocks as loading screens between exteriors and interiors? No fade to black, just entering airlock, door behind you closes, engine unloads exterior assets, loads interior assets, doors in front of you opens. Similar to how Warframe does it in its open-region maps:



I'm not complaining, just wondering.

 

[Montauk]

Bethesda's choices have nothing to do with 'quantity over quality'. They've made multiple worlds and cities that are dense and handcrafted, with more NPCs and lines of dialogues than any other game they've made.

It would be truly immersion breaking if space was completely empty. Realistically, you'll encounter thousands of planets in the segment of the Galaxy they're basing the game on. 1000 was a reasonable compromise.

to summarize, it's misinformation to claim the worlds in Starfield are 'bland and empty'




I don't think you understand the sheer complexity of executing 100 handcrafted planets that are densely populated worlds. That's how you end up with a game that never comes out.

In a game set in 2333 or so, it's also not credible to expect hundreds of planets settled and densely populated by humans.




Yes, that would have been cool. And we already knew a year ago that you wouldn't be able to fly from space and land where you want. Not sure why that's being brought up now.

I expect the game to have its own share of thrilling set pieces anyway.

These guys don't care about small trivialities like feasibility or being technically impossible.

Fantasies don't necessarily turn into a pleasing reality.

How many gamers fantasised about massive, complex, open worlds when they were young, long before they were technically possible?

And then we eventually got open world games, a torrent of them for over a decade.

And it turns out that most of the time an open world is a big fat waste of time - filler. Anyway we all know the critiques of open worlds and I personally very much miss the days where most games were linear.

Halo Infinite is open world and it adds nothing, absolutely nothing to the game. In fact it makes the encounter design much worse.

What are the legendary titles? The linear Halo Bungie games. Linear, hand-crafted, carefully designed. The developer creates a great experience with great gameplay because they can carefully control your journey.

Be careful what you wish for. Try and understand the implications of your fantasy.

Because I don't think getting 100 planets where you can walk around the whole equator and it takes 8 hours is going to add up to what you hope it will.

 

[adamsapple]

Wouldn't it make more sense to implement actual airlocks as loading screens between exteriors and interiors? No fade to black, just entering airlock, door behind you closes, engine unloads exterior assets, loads interior assets, doors in front of you opens. Similar to how Warframe does it in it's open-region maps:

I am arguably the biggest Mass Effect fan on this forum.

I have lived through those 30 second elevator rides.

I would much rather take a quick, fade out, load screen over sitting idly and waiting for a long, canned, animation to finish.

Seems a lot of people felt the same, hence Bioware implemented the elevator skip option in the Legendary remaster.

 

[roosnam1980]

Wouldn't it make more sense to implement actual airlocks as loading screens between exteriors and interiors? No fade to black, just entering airlock, door behind you closes, engine unloads exterior assets, loads interior assets, doors in front of you opens. Similar to how Warframe does it in its open-region maps:



I'm not complaining, just wondering.

yea that would have been seamless

 

[Del_X]

If the tiles are 2x the length of Skyrim then they're actually 4x the area (2x width and 2x distance).

"Small" just lol

Say there's 1000 planets with an average of 3 points.

Unless I'm an idiot this mean it's…
1000 x 3 x 4 = 12,000 times the size of Skyrim.

 

[Morrie’s wig shop]

I mean I play my Xbox as much as my Playstation, own Skyrim on Xbox (and Playstation), and very regularly check Halo user stats in the hopes that it will continue to recover and grow (it's doing really well!).

I also have the Platinum trophy for Fallout 4. I'm a pretty big Xbox consumer and a pretty good Bethesda fan.

I'm just not mega excited by what Starfield has shown so far.

But why???

 

[timothet]

I am arguably the biggest Mass Effect fan on this forum.

I have lived through those 30 second elevator rides.

I would much rather take a quick, fade out, load screen over sitting idly and waiting for a long, canned, animation to finish.

Seems a lot of people felt the same, hence Bioware implemented the elevator skip option in the Legendary remaster.

Yeah, it's matter of preference I guess. It would be nice to have that choice, though.

 

[Montauk]

I am arguably the biggest Mass Effect fan on this forum.

I have lived through those 30 second elevator rides.

I would much rather take a quick, fade out, load screen over sitting idly and waiting for a long, canned, animation to finish.

Seems a lot of people felt the same, hence Bioware implemented the elevator skip option in the Legendary remaster.

That's part of my point. If the clip isn't edited then the load there is 1 second or something.

But there are people who would argue that it would be better to sit through a beautifully animated, multi-stage, airlock cycling sequence an unknown number of times (hundreds?) so that they can feel immersed.

Because this isn't about gameplay for them, but about experiencing kind of simulation that they can imagine is actually real.

RPG? Pfft.

 

[ManaByte]

Seeing ads all over Reddit for it. Very concerning that they're not marketing it at all.

 

[jorgejjvr]

Holy shit at people complaining about 0.5 secs of a black screen immersion my butt

 

[Gambit2483]

I'm sick of this obsession with immersion. Does anybody care about gameplay anymore?

Does anybody care about a series of mechanics, rules and fail/win states that create a GAME?

There are people who seriously thought this was going to be some essentially magical combination of NMS and Star Citizen but also an actual proper RPG?

What planet are you broadcasting from? How do you think that is achievable?

Games aren't about being a simulation of reality. Games are fundamentally about systems. Chess isn't a good game because it's realistic - it's because it's a good game!

Jesus I feel like I'm going crazy.

I wasn't aware immersion and gameplay was an "either/or" thing with games this generation.

The creation engine is old as fuck and needs to be retired after this game. It has its pros but the cons are holding the games back with some systems feeling like relics from the OG Xbox days (no vehicles, needing to load, can't climb ladders, etc).

I'm sure it will be a great game and maybe some people are blowing things out of proportion but don't try to shame everyone who expects to play a $70 space game with a great sense of immersion in 2023 on the world's most power console but are somewhat disappointed because it's using an outdated engine that should have been put to pasture years ago.

 

[Morrie’s wig shop]

To the ones who have no means to play this.

What do you think is going to be on random planets? What Bethesda is known for is vast empty, dead open world games right?

Why don't you think there won't be a cave at every corner, strange ancient ruins to explore, vast forests, alpine peaks to climb, endless tropical beaches. Why?

 

[Justin9mm]

My TV gaming PC. 4080, runs everything at 4k/60, easier to fit into my setup than a PS5.

Here is a promo shot for size:

I don't want another high end gaming rig for my theatre. I still want my gaming PC in my office, im not going to fork out for two? Are you for real? I also don't want to run a PC from my couch. I just want to pick up a controller to play. It just doesn't work for certain ppl. I don't want that shit.

 

[timothet]

Seeing ads all over Reddit for it. Very concerning that they're not marketing it at all.

Now that you mentioned it, I realized that I legitimately didn't see a single Starfield ad so far. It is a little weird. I'm using every opportunity to block ads but usually some still go through to me.

 

[ManaByte]

To the ones who have no means to play this.

I find it really hard to believe that people posting on a video game forum on the internet don't have access to a web browser. Because that and a controller is really all you need to play this.

 

[Heisenberg007]

You can apply it to anything you like. I'm not fully immersed in Outer Wilds - it's not at all realistic - but it's still absolutely one of the best games I've ever played.

You're missing the point if you don't get the comparison.

And you can land on any planet in Outer Wilds seamlessly, without any loading screen, and walk around the entire planet and come back to the same place, without any loading screen or blocked terrain.

And that's partially the reason why the game feels so good to play. At least to me. All these little things matter and then the game becomes greater than the sum of its parts.

 

[Ozriel]

I'm sure it will be a great game and maybe some people are blowing things out of proportion but don't try to shame everyone who expects to play a $70 space game with a great sense of immersion in 2023 on the world's most power console but are somewhat disappointed because it's using an outdated engine that should have been put to pasture years ago.

The people just woke up in late August 2023 and realized Starfield was running on Creation Engine 2.0?

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the Elder Scrolls 6 is confirmed to run on this same engine. It's a modified, improved version of the engine. Same way UE4 is a modified, improved version of UE2.

looking forward to plaintive complaints in 2028 when ES6 is about to ship.

Weird to argue that an expansive game with deep RPG elements, space travel, massive handcrafted cities and 250000 lines of dialogue will only provide immersion if doors don't have loading and if you're allowed to walk forever.


Lol @ the $70 callout. For the money, I'm not sure how many other games out there will provide you the value of a flagship Bethesda RPG.

 

[MMaRsu]

Even if you spend an hour on every planet, thats still a 1000 hours.

If you spend 30 minutes on every planet, thats 500 hours.

Not to mention the amount of quests, npc's, factions, killing whoever you want (to a certain degree), points of interests, companions, ship building etc etc...

 

[MMaRsu]

And you can land on any planet in Outer Wilds seamlessly, without any loading screen, and walk around the entire planet and come back to the same place, without any loading screen or blocked terrain.

Yes and its also a very small game in scale. An amazing game but not even comparable to the smallest Bethesda game. At this point your just trolling bud, its clear for all to see.

 

[Montauk]

And you can land on any planet in Outer Wilds seamlessly, without any loading screen, and walk around the entire planet and come back to the same place, without any loading screen or blocked terrain.

And? The planets are very very small. It isn't a RPG. There are no quests. There are no quest givers. There are lots of choices. The assets look like toys.

Its solar system is a beautiful clockwork piece but the game can hardly be compared to a vast RPG with complex graphics and systems.

If the planets in this were like OW you'd have a brain aneurysm.

What's your point?

 

[adamsapple]

We've graduated from No Man's Sky to Outer Wilds now, at least a more recent comparison

 

[MidGenRefresh]

I don't want another high end gaming rig for my theatre. I still want my gaming PC in my office, im not going to fork out for two? Are you for real? I also don't want to run a PC from my couch. I just want to pick up a controller to play. It just doesn't work for certain ppl. I don't want that shit.

Man, it's 2023. PC with Steam Deck UI offers the best big screen console experience.

 

[Morrie’s wig shop]

And you can land on any planet in Outer Wilds seamlessly, without any loading screen, and walk around the entire planet and come back to the same place, without any loading screen or blocked terrain.

What is wrong with you? You seriously can't go go out and just get a SS, it's so cheap.

Or better yet just download the gamepass app on a smart device.

Or you can spend countless hours of your life downplaying everything Xbox.

 

[Ozriel]

Yes and its also a very small game in scale. An amazing game but not even comparable to the smallest Bethesda game. At this point your just trolling bud, its clear for all to see.

We've graduated from No Man's Sky to Outer Wilds now, at least a more recent comparison

Current status and rumors so far have already eliminated most of the 'concern' fodder that's been trotted out over the years.

- "it's coming in hot"
- "it's going to be super broken and unplayable at launch. It's Bugthesda"
- "it's going to be delayed until 2024"

The game shows up in less than a week, and early leaks indicate it's more polished than most expected.

At the point, we've firmly into grasping at straws territory. First TitleScreenGate, now ImmersionGate.

 

[Montauk]

Yes and its also a very small game in scale. An amazing game but not even comparable to the smallest Bethesda game. At this point your just trolling bud, its clear for all to see.

He can't seriously think that comparison makes any sense.

 

[clarky]

Loading screens between doors in 2023 blockbuster RPG?

wtf

Ah here we go immersion breaking loading screen controversy for the next 24 hours.

Seriously people if you have no interest in this game other than to put it down or pick holes in it without even playing the game then fuck off back into whatever thread does float your boat.

The Salt is real. Never have i seen so many hoping a game will fail. You sad ***ts. Go do a lap of a real planet and get some fresh air

 

[Zuzu]

For reference, this is the load time that's causing the latest concern.

Yeah, that's no big deal at all. And isn't it similar to how other Bethesda/creation engine games have transitioned from outdoor to indoor environments. Pretty sure Fallout 3 & New Vegas did fade out fade in transitions. I might not be remembering correctly though.