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Stephen Fry on Confronting God After Death
- Thread starter ponpo
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The "free will defense" never made any sense, and I am always staggered by the fact that so many people accept its premises uncritically: that free will is the most important good. Our every-day morality does not work that way. In fact, in many situations it is a moral imperative to act against the "free will" of people to prevent greater harm. Prisons are a primary example.
If a person would not intervene to prevent a crime (say child rape), and excuse his inaction by saying that he did not want to interfere with the offender's free will, we would actually persecute him for denial of assistance.
And that reasoning ignores all the ill definitions of "free will" that most people use in these discussions.
I respect you for saying your opinions in a place where very little people will agree with you.
There was a poster a long time ago that wrote an in depth post about the claim of a biblical hell. I thought I had a link but i'll have to dig around it. Basically the idea of Hell as a burning fire isn't really backed up scripturally. Translation stuff and a classic catholic church with an agenda is probably why we have the popular fire and brimstone version of Hell today. It was a really great and informative post, hopefully it's not lost to time.
Edit: I do recall words such as Gehenna/Sheol etc. You can google them to find out a bit more about it.
Oh I see. I'd love to read that actually. Even though i'm not a believer.
The funny thing is that when i used to say this to my " religious " friends when i was a kid they would be like " That's bullshit. Your grandmother is wrong. If there's no hell what's the point of being good ? "
It tells you a lot about the mindset of most religious people who believe in divine punishment.
Stereogatari
Banned
Reminds me of The Matrix. Something about how the first edition of the system was too perfect so humans wouldn't accept it as reality.
If that's the case, how can heaven work?
It really is a good read. I thought I had a link to the post saved in a note, but I can't find it there. The poster was called Bruceleeroy and that particular post was years ago- maybe around half a decade. It might be in my post history too so I might try to dig through it later.
I remember getting into debates about what a God who wouldn't send you to hell, but would either 'reabsorb' you or simply destroy the soul. I was never a fan of the latter, and as has always been pointed out, it's weird for a God that loves you, to want to send you to burn forever. Having a unity with God (Heaven) is a much more logically and pleasing idea I think, and I agree with you. I think for there to be so many people to see divine punishment through a concept such as hell to be considered just kind of paints a very...bleak picture.
But yeah, you're Grandma sounds awesome and is probably totally correct (if there's a God).
Whatever we wreak havoc on in a game isn't sentient. We aren't beholden to a set of morals regarding 1s and 0s.
This is pretty hard to read, as it just comes off as rambling.
I appreciate the universe, because of it's intricacies, how it came to be, and why it is so beautiful. Not because I think some dude made it, but because of how complex it truly is, the billions of years it took to get to this point, and most of all, the fact that we, as incredibly primitive beings, have only touched the surface of what there is to discover in the universe. Thinking all the things that happen to someone in a lifetime as trial and error as if it is some test is incredibly ignorant of the things we already know as humans. We are incredibly fragile beings with a limited understanding of our universe. We will continue to evolve and either destroy ourselves, be destroyed by the universe, or learn to adapt and somehow survive the endless perils of life, not because some mystical being deems it so, but because that is simply nature.
Why "god" has to be a part of that, will never make sense to me. We've gotten this far on our own. Be thankful to those who have discovered cures, technologies, and the things that better life for all of us. Don't be thankful to some being you made up that you believe would put us through "tests" to consider us worthy.
Unless you're a "strong atheist" (pretty sure that's the term), then you probably have never said there can't be an invisible god who doesn't care, or is playing a "game" with us.
What we have said is that any god that may exist is certainly not the perfectly just, benevolent and merciful one most people claim it would be.
yeah, the abrahamic accounts of God maybe very far from the truth.
But the possibility that God can exist and that to him we are no more than a cold closed system/experiment/game might be true and ,therefore,is fightening.
the big one that's always proved to me that any sufficiently powerful single creator deity is a sociopath is that they all require people to follow a specific set of rules and then ensure that it's utterly impossible for the vast majority of humans throughout time to even know what the rules are
I always had an issue with most theological Gods because they're given names, personalities, and project onto the world a set of dogmatic rules that very plainly do not match with the world at all. It's nothing more than ego projection for one to value their own subjective impositions, but it's confused to be an objective account of the world. This is how anyone can sincerely start to imagine people being a "less than" in an objective sense, for it confuses this lens of validation as something linked to the world itself. Very clearly it's not.
It almost seems baffling that people still believe in such a God. The closest thing you can call God is nature: what is, just is. The problem is the word has been poisoned to infer a dictator, a tyrant, a big poppa who puts people on probation, so it very clearly does not fit as a mainstream term to use.
It almost seems baffling that people still believe in such a God. The closest thing you can call God is nature: what is, just is. The problem is the word has been poisoned to infer a dictator, a tyrant, a big poppa who puts people on probation, so it very clearly does not fit as a mainstream term to use.
Yeah that's the biggest issue. What about someone born in India from Hindu parents or someone born in a buddhist family in China ? That's what christians and muslims don't understand. You believe in the God of your parents. So what happens to those who don't believe in the Abrahamic God ? Are they all going to hell ? So basically, just by being born in the wrong place, you're already 1000 times more likely to end up in Hell ?
Recently i asked this question to a muslim friend " What if you were born in a buddhist family ? ". And he told me " I would probably end up reading the Qu'ran one day, just by curiosity, and i would convert to Islam after finishing it cause just by reading it you understand that it's the one truth. The Qu'ran is perfectly written and contains all the answers and now with all the technology everyone can read it. So people don't really have an excuse anymore "
I asked him again " What about the old days, when there was no internet, let's go back to the days before Guthenberg was born. How can a chinese monk put his hand on a Qu'ran and start believing in God ? He's basically getting sentenced to eternal damnation the day he's born. What kind of God would do that ? "
He couldn't answer.
User 73706
Banned
Oh man. Fuck the debate. Gay Byrne's reactions, this gif
I genuinely can't remember laughing this much in years . If that gif isn't a standard reaction gif for the next decade there truly is no god.
I really hope it becomes the go-to when people start throwing around their fedoras a little too hard.
I think he's paraphrasing about "earwigs" that were known to enter ear canals and then eat their way out through the eye stalks on occasions. It's some dark ages level shit, though.
funkystudent
Member
Was at a function with Gay Byrne a while ago and got to spend some time hanging around with him.
Dude seemed like a friendly old chap.
Also he sure could knock back the whiskey for a guy in his 70's (80s?)
Dude seemed like a friendly old chap.
Also he sure could knock back the whiskey for a guy in his 70's (80s?)
nkarafo
Member
Well, why test? This always gets me. Why God would need to do "tests"? He is supposed to be all-knowing. Knowing the future of everything and all. So he knew what will happen beforehand, even before he created them. He is not like humans who need to test things in order to figure out stuff. He knew this all along, thus he created Adam and Eve in order to sin and mankind in order to suffer. He did all this, not us.
This also means that he already knows if me and you will end up hell or not. If someone asks him, right now, he knows already. Unless you think that somehow you can SURPRISE god or PROVE HIM WRONG and you end up in heaven when he thought you will end up in hell. If so, then he is neither omnipotent nor all knowing. It means he does mistakes like humans do. If he never does mistakes, however, then him knowing all that information (before even someone is born) means our lives are pre-determined by him thus there is no free will.
If god is how we think he is then he sounds exactly like how Fry describes him. Egomaniac and unjust.
Epsilon-delta
Banned
Exactly. I said this before but God of the Bible set up humans for failure. Everything goes back to him if one were to take the book literally.
Makes no sense.
cuchulainn
Member
The Interviewer....Gay Byrne. I wouldn't get too worked up on him, he's a self proclaimed know it all with a huge ego within the island of Ireland, that doesn't fit. This is part one of an example of his fine work: http://youtu.be/pxw4a0e_NmU
Maninthemirror
Banned
yeah dont think you understand faith.
lets say I am a muslim. I can go to hell, so why cant a non-Muslim go to heaven
see the people who are born non-muslim and dont receive the proper message of true religion can still go to heaven because it is no fault on their own that they are exposed to a false view of true faith or they have been misled by outside forces because of which their understanding of true faith and God makes them think the true faith and God are false. True faith is only that which after proper study and non-bias you find yourself as being true and any true believer will find it if he is exposed to it
explained in detail here: http://www2.alislam.org/askislam/mp3/MEI_19841022_03.mp3
This is just my personal view. Just be a good person in life and try and attempt to find faith in an unbiased way. If you don't find it then your good deeds will be enough for you to be raised to heaven by God. It's really not hard being a really good person in life
Again, we can criticize and discuss the content of this thread without that "Fedora" drivel.
I think he means Onchocerca volvulus. It's actually a parasitic worm rather than an insect but it does cause blindness and is pretty horrific.
Edit: It is transmitted by an insect as well, so he's not entirely wrong on that aspect either.
I care little for the debate, but Stephen Fry is such a wonderful man. I can think of no one on British TV that articulates themselves as well as he does. Thoroughly intelligent and knowledgable.
I saw the video in the thread this morning, and it's hilarious how the interviewer reacts. In the same link I watched earlier was a clip of Fry at a religious debate, and how we managed to systematically destroy people's opinions on the Catholic Church was masterful. I don't necessarily agree with all his points (most of them mind), but it's the way he carries himself that is so infectious.
I saw the video in the thread this morning, and it's hilarious how the interviewer reacts. In the same link I watched earlier was a clip of Fry at a religious debate, and how we managed to systematically destroy people's opinions on the Catholic Church was masterful. I don't necessarily agree with all his points (most of them mind), but it's the way he carries himself that is so infectious.
User 73706
Banned
I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with any theology (or lack thereof) in particular, but the sheer level of militancy that surfaces on GAF sometimes is absolutely ridiculous. Yes, it's pretty unlikely one dude riding around on a cloud substantiated an existence potentially infinite in its applications, but doesn't want people wearing nylon. No, that doesn't mean I need you to shit on everyone that comes from a religious family or background for being sheep and utterly reprehensible individuals for letting themselves get tricked into following those fairy tales. You better believe I'm not going to take them seriously if that's the level they stoop to in order to chide a custom someone partook in, especially for people who may have not even had any control over it growing up.
Are you saying even atheists can go to heaven just by being a good person ?
If so then it's the first time i meet a religious person who believes that to be possible.
But again this is your " very moderate " interpretation of religion. I'm afraid you're in the minority. Isn't it clearly written that God can forgive every bad deed except if you intentionally choose to not have faith in him as the one true God ? Doesn't it say in the holy books that atheists and worshipers of false idols will burn in hell for eternity ?
ZehDon
Banned
Doubtful, and to such a degree that I think you're being dishonest. Presuming that one had a mind in whatever-afterlife that operated in the same manner as it does in this universe, reconciling the proven existence of a God against a lifetime denying and working against said God wouldn't take place in an instant. The human mind can barely deal with the size of the observable universe, let alone the profound ramifications of the proven existence of said-omnipotent being. Take a read through the thread. See all of the long-standing arguments and non-reconciled logical extrapolations being recited. Now, facing the very real God, you would know that each and everyone of them must have an answer. You're going to reconcile all of humanity's thousands of years of collective logical pondering about an omnipotent being in an instant? Of course not. It's physically and psychologically impossible.
You yourself have made the claim that you'd be able to reconcile a thousand lifetimes of human thought-process in an instant, and that you would chastise God himself if you found yourself facing the extent of his unlimited wrath. Frankly, I think there is a substantial lack of Fedora's being passed out.
Atheism or : How i learned to stop worrying and love the void.
This is one of the most inane posts I've ever seen. Holy shit.
JasonUresti
Member
I'd guess a supreme creator being to be closer to something out of HP Lovecraft than a nice old man who loves us unconditionally. A totally unknowable entity that cannot be grasped but tenuously by a human mind. God works in mysterious ways not as a pleasant catch all to explain away the unexplainable, but as a terrifying threat that the will of the creator will never be understood and will smash apart our sense of right and wrong as it sees fit.
Hell doesn't exist.
Given the big 3 religion can't even agree on what hell actually is, I don't see me losing control of my bowels.
Which is my point. People aren't afraid of things they're confident don't exist, but if it does exist, no one's going to say "God you suck, send me there."
It's just preposterous.
Imagine if I asked you what you would do if little green martians beamed you up to their spaceship.
You might say these aliens don't exist, but if actually faced with the situation, you wouldn't want them to dissect you.
Can someone please explain what he meant ? I've seen several gaffers react to his post.
Hell isn't worth contemplating. Hell is a ridiculous concept. At least aliens are sensible.
Don't you ever look at this stuff in think,"what a load of old bollocks, maybe I should stop dedicating my life to this and just be the best person I can be instead!"
If the magic cloud fairy has a problem with that then so be it.
Right, but the man answered the question. He didn't refuse on the grounds that it (like most hypotheticals) sounds ridiculous.
I'm not responding to whether Hell exists, but to his statement about what he'd do if Hell exists.
When I was a kid, I used to ask my mother "What if the Sun fell out of the sky?" and "What if all the trees died?"
You might think these questions are not worthy any more than the question of whether Hell exists, but it is completely illogical to want to spend eternity in an unpleasant place.
He answered the question in a way to make others contemplate the insanity of god. The purpose of the question is to reaffirm the faithful. Like "see, we know we're right and atheists will grovel when they see the truth". I mean why not answer "well sir 2 + 2 is 4. If confronted with torture of course I'll kiss whatever entity's ass by doing or saying whatever it takes to avoid hell".
Too bad that entity has made up its mind aeons before you were even born and already knows if you're saved or fucked.
Assuming I understand it right, the red button refers to a device for euthanasia. And given Fry has had said on a few occasions he has considered or attempted suicide, I took Ashe's post as to be calling Fry's bluff and saying if he wanted to ask god those questions he could press the button.
If I'm wrong, so be it. If I understand correctly, Ashes was making an incredibly insensitive comment.
nkarafo
Member
Ι'm atheist, yet i can't stop worrying about the void. Dunno, it sounds depressing thinking about it while i exist. I mean, what a waste for time and space to exist and never being able to experience it again after you die. Ever. I think theists have it better in this aspect. Afterlife keeps things interesting, at least the idea of it while you still exist.
Zeouterlimits
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