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[TGO]

Try play games that aren't dead (or bad)

You're right but I keep getting invites to COD and there's only so many times you can say you're busy..

 

[Spaceman292]

HELLO SAM, MY NAME IS MASK FACE PACEMAKER HARTMAN. YOU ARE THE BRIDGES THAT CONNECT US

P-Princess Beach?!

*Mario game over sound*

*Norman Reedus grunts*

 

[Moonjt9]

I mean, play something else? Not every game needs to be the exact same thing? There’s space for every kind of game.

 

[Azurro]

But freedom of movement while doing that keeps you in character. Which also means being more engaged in the environmental story telling, reading logs and item descriptions.

Unrestricted movement doesnt mean "doing stupid shit while the story is taking place".

This isnt to say i am always against cut scenes. A game like the last of us, with incredible cutscenes works well. But there are alot of games where story could be handled with more freedom.

This is silly, you are not moving while you are reading logs and item descriptions. It's actually worse, because you don't even have any visuals to accompany the story. Sounds to me that a button to skip cutscenes would be way better for you and OP, rather than doing all the retarded "immersive storytelling techniques" that were attempted to be implemented and just result in either boring walking, jumping around like a retard, listening to tapes while traversing a random part of the map or stopping to read tons of logs.

IMO, you either do things well, or you don't do them. If you are going to have a story focused title, then do the cutscenes well, with appropriate production values, camera angles, etc.

 

[RPSleon]

This is silly, you are not moving while you are reading logs and item descriptions. It's actually worse, because you don't even have any visuals to accompany the story. Sounds to me that a button to skip cutscenes would be way better for you and OP, rather than doing all the retarded "immersive storytelling techniques" that were attempted to be implemented and just result in either boring walking, jumping around like a retard, listening to tapes while traversing a random part of the map or stopping to read tons of logs.

IMO, you either do things well, or you don't do them. If you are going to have a story focused title, then do the cutscenes well, with appropriate production values, camera angles, etc.

I reaponded to the reading logs part as a defense of the implication that people who dont want cutscenes are lazy and just wanna run around. I actually think reading logs is a bad mechanic.

 

[Bonsaibäumchen]

So recently I started replayed death stranding directors cut since its on PS Plus essential...I love death stranding a bunch and its a top 10 game of all time for me. But an issue I have with this game that I started having with cinematic games in general is the amount of times that I have to put the controller down to watch a ton of cut scenes. Idk why so many games require you to put the controller down for extended periods of time. The part of this hobby we all enjoy is the playing more than the watching. Using cyberpunk as an example for the most part they traded in traditional cutscenes for a play like structure where you follow characters around an environment, and can still interact during dialogue dumps. I don't see why games like TLOU, Death stranding, MGS, and even some rockstar games (to a lesser extent). Games design needs to be designed around keeping the controller in your hand, because all to often we are asked to put it down. Theres already a medium for passive watching.

I can't relate because the cinematics/cutscenes are part of the experience.

The only thing that i hate are if cutscene/cinematics etc. can't be skipped though.

 

[01011001]

Is this thread seriously complaining about watching cutscenes when you are knowingly playing a "cinematic game"?

Death Stranding is not something I would call a cinematic game at all.
lot's of cutscenes =/= cinematic game

a cinematic game goes a step further and often dumbs down Gamedesign and Gameplay in order to squeeze in "cinematic" moments into the gameplay, which cannot be done easily unless the game is really shallow and or highly scripted.

Death Stranding doesn't do that. you can have stretches of hours without anything resembling a "cinematic" moment to happen, including cutscenes.

I remember how I stole a vehicle from a Mule base because I didn't have vehicles unlocked yet.
and I then used that to gain an early advantage and build out the highway to do some really easy deliveries.

that was hours of me playing without anything cinematic happening.

so not much of a cinematic game imo

 

[Topher]

Death Stranding is not something I would call a cinematic game at all.
lot's of cutscenes =/= cinematic game

a cinematic game goes a step further and often dumbs down Gamedesign and Gameplay in order to squeeze in "cinematic" moments into the gameplay, which cannot be done easily unless the game is really shallow and or highly scripted.

Death Stranding doesn't do that. you can have stretches of hours without anything resembling a "cinematic" moment to happen, including cutscenes.

A cinematic game doesn't automatically "dumb down" gameplay. TLOU 2, for example, has awesome gameplay but is still cinematic. Same for God of War. So yes, a game can be both cinematic and have great gameplay.

As far as Death Stranding, it has cinematic moments just like other cinematic games, but since it is open world whether you advance the story is up to you. Horizon Forbidden West has cinematic moments as well but like you say with DS, you can stretches of hours without a cutscene if you choose. But when those cutscenes do occur then they are typically high quality and have a movie feel to them. That's what makes them cinematic.

 

[qwertz12345]

So recently I started replayed death stranding directors cut since its on PS Plus essential...I love death stranding a bunch and its a top 10 game of all time for me. But an issue I have with this game that I started having with cinematic games in general is the amount of times that I have to put the controller down to watch a ton of cut scenes. Idk why so many games require you to put the controller down for extended periods of time. The part of this hobby we all enjoy is the playing more than the watching. Using cyberpunk as an example for the most part they traded in traditional cutscenes for a play like structure where you follow characters around an environment, and can still interact during dialogue dumps. I don't see why games like TLOU, Death stranding, MGS, and even some rockstar games (to a lesser extent). Games design needs to be designed around keeping the controller in your hand, because all to often we are asked to put it down. Theres already a medium for passive watching.

Maybe it's just the game's way of saying: Put the controller down. Chill out. Go outside. Enjoy some sun.

 

[01011001]

A cinematic game doesn't automatically "dumb down" gameplay. TLOU 2, for example, has awesome gameplay but is still cinematic. Same for God of War. So yes, a game can be both cinematic and have great gameplay.

As far as Death Stranding, it has cinematic moments just like other cinematic games, but since it is open world whether you advance the story is up to you. Horizon Forbidden West has cinematic moments as well but like you say with DS, you can stretches of hours without a cutscene if you choose. But when those cutscenes do occur then they are typically high quality and have a movie feel to them. That's what makes them cinematic.

I only consider a game to be a "cinematic" game if that "cinematic" part influences gameplay. and it doesn't in Death Stranding.

in God of War, TLoU2 and other such games you have forced slow walking, random abilities taken away for no reason other than to make it cinematic, walking behind AI moments etc.

that's what I mean with dumbing down gameplay. you can't have good gameplay + forced cinematic moments.
you can have good gameplay + attempts at nudging the player to have cinematic moments... but that's about it.

Death Stranding did the latter one when you first walk towards Port Knot City

 

[Topher]

I only consider a game to be a "cinematic" game if that "cinematic" part influences gameplay. and it doesn't in Death Stranding.

in God of War, TLoU2 and other such games you have forced slow walking, random abilities taken away for no reason other than to make it cinematic, walking behind AI moments etc.

that's what I mean with dumbing down gameplay. you can't have good gameplay + forced cinematic moments.
you can have good gameplay + attempts at nudging the player to have cinematic moments... but that's about it.

Death Stranding did the latter one when you first walk towards Port Knot City

The vast majority of the gameplay in these games are not "forced cinematic moments" though. I don't agree with defining an game entirely by gameplay actions that are not the core elements of the gameplay. And I don't agree that those few moments are what make the game "cinematic". I don't think most would see it that way, but it is fine if that is your opinion.

 

[01011001]

The vast majority of the gameplay in these games are not "forced cinematic moments" though. I don't agree with defining an game entirely by gameplay actions that are not the core elements of the gameplay. And I don't agree that those few moments are what make the game "cinematic". I don't think most would see it that way, but it is fine if that is your opinion.

well, it happens not too rarely in God of War for example. the game fucking starts with such a sequence, it has such a sequence in it's first boss fight... it has a multiple minutes long sequence where all you can do is hold the stick forward further into the game...

that doesn't happen in Death Stranding. and I find it even more ridiculous to call a game cinematic based on an arbitrary limit of cutscene length, cutscenes that you can skip btw. which is not the case in God of War.

In TLoU2 you can skip cutscenes but not the forced walking crap.

so there is a distinct difference in design between God of War or TLoU2 and Death Stranding, while there is only a very arbitrary distinction between Death Stranding and say Mario Odyssey...
and yes, forget about the genre differences for a moment, that's not important here, any genre can be cinematic or not cinematic, that's ot the point.

Both Death Stranding and Mario Odyssey do not arbitrarily limit your abilities, they don't have forced slow walking and they both have cutscenes.
which makes the only distinction, like I said, arbitrary.

you would have to make up an arbitrary number of cutscenes or lengths of cutscenes to draw a distinction between these 2 games.

while drawing a distinction between these 2 and GoW/TLoU2 is pretty easily done through forced walking/ability limiting in order to force these moments.

long story short, I don't like using completely arbitrary things to categorize things.

 

[Strider Highwind]

I can't stand the watch a cut scene..load into the gameplay environment, take two steps forward - and load another cut scene.. Like why was that little bit of a walk necessary? Why not just load one long cut scene

Tales of Arise(Especially towards the end) is a huge offender here.

 

[Topher]

well, it happens not too rarely in God of War for example. the game fucking starts with such a sequence, it has such a sequence in it's first boss fight... it has a multiple minutes long sequence where all you can do is hold the stick forward further into the game...

that doesn't happen in Death Stranding. and I find it even more ridiculous to call a game cinematic based on an arbitrary limit of cutscene length, cutscenes that you can skip btw. which is not the case in God of War.

In TLoU2 you can skip cutscenes but not the forced walking crap.

so there is a distinct difference in design between God of War or TLoU2 and Death Stranding, while there is only a very arbitrary distinction between Death Stranding and say Mario Odyssey...
and yes, forget about the genre differences for a moment, that's not important here, any genre can be cinematic or not cinematic, that's ot the point.

Both Death Stranding and Mario Odyssey do not arbitrarily limit your abilities, they don't have forced slow walking and they both have cutscenes.
which makes the only distinction, like I said, arbitrary.

you would have to make up an arbitrary number of cutscenes or lengths of cutscenes to draw a distinction between these 2 games.

while drawing a distinction between these 2 and GoW/TLoU2 is pretty easily done through forced walking/ability limiting in order to force these moments.

long story short, I don't like using completely arbitrary things to categorize things.

And I don't like exaggerating one minor element of a game to pretend that defines it.

 

[EverydayBeast]

Cutscenes are a good thing considering the amount of money you pay for games, dealing with updates.

 

[Ghost of Caelid]

I only consider a game to be a "cinematic" game if that "cinematic" part influences gameplay. and it doesn't in Death Stranding.

in God of War, TLoU2 and other such games you have forced slow walking, random abilities taken away for no reason other than to make it cinematic, walking behind AI moments etc.

that's what I mean with dumbing down gameplay. you can't have good gameplay + forced cinematic moments.
you can have good gameplay + attempts at nudging the player to have cinematic moments... but that's about it.

Death Stranding did the latter one when you first walk towards Port Knot City

A big part of this topic is that a cinematic games definition isn't written in stone. We have different definitions. I do agree that alot of cutscenes doesnt automatically mean cinematic and that a gameplay moment can be cinematic. I would call death stranding cinematic because of it obvious influence from film. But Mad Max the game is extremely cinematic because during its driving sections when you get a kill and the slow motion a car explodes, you drive through the flames and the dude on the back is hanging on for dear life...more cinematic than most cutscenes...but most cinematic games do rely heavily on cut scenes to tell the story. I think TLOU2 (ONE OF THE BEST GAMES EVER) does alot of good sections where you are getting story and exposition in the game with Ellie and Joel in the museum, or Abby and Dina exploring and talking...i love those sections and if more crafted we can have that instead of "okay now watch what we could let you play".

 

[Sub_Level]

I think i agree with some of what youre saying. I dont personally ever skip story, but games without cutscenes should still have their story sections be engaging and well written.
Often the games that do it well manage to keep the sections that stop the flow to a minimum and keep the story moving during gameplay, not just stop your progress while talking.

Half life as an example too has parts where you may have stopped and find yourself listening to what someones saying, or watching what they're doing, but its usually something thats pushing your progress.

I think wanting to skip story sections like cutscenes could be another topic.

Here's the thing. I prefer replaying HL1 over HL2 because of what you just described. HL2 has entire levels such as Red Letter Day, Entanglement, and Our Benefactors which barely have any gameplay beyond standing around while NPCs talk. In HL1 all that stuff is contained to the first 15-20 minutes. Once Unforseen Consequences starts you're off to the races.

HL2 would have been better if it (A) opted to simply make those levels skippable cutscenes or B) let the player skip these segments without glitches/console commands.

On a first playthrough of course I don't mind. The stuff like messing around in Kleiner's lab while he and Alyx talk is awesome. But its reaaalllllyyyy grating on a replay, just let me get to Route Kanal and start shooting.

 

[wolywood]

I'm starting to feel a pattern here...

But yeah, ds plot and charas were mostly dog shit so putting the controller down to hear THE cringe instead of delivering packages was not a good trade off imo.

When i started the game i thought the gameplay was the stick and the plot\cutscenes were the carrot like many kojima games...boy i was wrong...

Feels like 75 percent of the game's dialogue is "SAM PORTER BRIDGES"

On a more serious note, Guardians of the Galaxy is a recent example of a dialogue heavy game done well. There are still a bunch of non interactive cutscenes, but a lot of the exposition is presented as conversations between the characters that take place while you're actually playing the game.

 

[Davevil]

Kojima doesn't like this element

 

[Kokoloko85]

What MGSV got right was putting the majority of Kojima melodrama into recordings you can listen to whilst doing other shit.

I wish they done the same for Death Stranding

 

[Kokoloko85]

Modern games often feel more like movies indeed. Pathetic.

Seems like you guys didn’t play JRPG’s in the past……

 

[GymWolf]

Feels like 75 percent of the game's dialogue is "SAM PORTER BRIDGES"

On a more serious note, Guardians of the Galaxy is a recent example of a dialogue heavy game done well. There are still a bunch of non interactive cutscenes, but a lot of the exposition is presented as conversations between the characters that take place while you're actually playing the game.

The problem of gotg was that there is TOO much dialogue.

Seriously, most of the times i wasn't capable of going forward because characters had 293274294838 to say in the same place...

 

[Ghost of Caelid]

Feels like 75 percent of the game's dialogue is "SAM PORTER BRIDGES"

On a more serious note, Guardians of the Galaxy is a recent example of a dialogue heavy game done well. There are still a bunch of non interactive cutscenes, but a lot of the exposition is presented as conversations between the characters that take place while you're actually playing the game.

Spiderman does this well too...when you can explore and gain more exposition in confined spaces by clicking on an item...i love those portions.

 

[Xeaker]

Seems like you guys didn’t play JRPG’s in the past……

I played them all. Which old ones do you mean?

 

[Kokoloko85]

I played them all. Which old ones do you mean?

Anything after FF4 will have parts with looooong dialogue and “cinematics”

 

[Amiga]

Huge disagree. Skippable cutscenes are perfectly fine in games. I hate what the OP is describing where you follow an NPC around while dialogue or exposition happens. Thats not interactive or fun. Thats just a badly shot cutscene that you can’t skip unlike, say, Metal Gear where its a well shot cutscene that you CAN skip if you want.

Forced walks are also bad. they all depends on the implementation.

 

[Sub_Level]

Forced walks are also bad. they all depends on the implementation.

I 100% agree. Im in favor of pure cutscenes not walk-and-talks.

Not every game has to be the same of course. Some games dont need more than a paper thin premise (Mario). Some can tell a story indirectly (Dark Souls). And some like Fallout and Mass Effect are highly dependent on the player interacting during cutscenes. But overall I think you cant go wrong with cutscenes and more devs should stick to em.

 

[Amiga]

I 100% agree. Im in favor of pure cutscenes not walk-and-talks.

Not every game has to be the same of course. Some games dont need more than a paper thin premise (Mario). Some can tell a story indirectly (Dark Souls). And some like Fallout and Mass Effect are highly dependent on the player interacting during cutscenes. But overall I think you cant go wrong with cutscenes and more devs should stick to em.

Bioshock had an interesting solution (but kind of cheating). They made some scenes happen in an inaccessible area. you could move all you want but can't interfere with scene. this tactic is not easy to apply the whole game. IMOO every method is viable, the goal is to be as less intrusive to player control as possible.

 

[tassletine]

I only consider a game to be a "cinematic" game if that "cinematic" part influences gameplay. and it doesn't in Death Stranding.

in God of War, TLoU2 and other such games you have forced slow walking, random abilities taken away for no reason other than to make it cinematic, walking behind AI moments etc.

that's what I mean with dumbing down gameplay. you can't have good gameplay + forced cinematic moments.
you can have good gameplay + attempts at nudging the player to have cinematic moments... but that's about it.

Death Stranding did the latter one when you first walk towards Port Knot City

I think you need more leway in your definition.

I would something cinematic was something that uses the language of cinema to get emotion across. Cutting. Camera moves. Titles. etc. to try and resemble cinema.

So given that, I wouldn't say that forced walking is like cinema at all. More like a theme park ride than anything. Almost all cinema is directed, and without that direction, I think it loses purpose.

Having said that the most cinematic moment I've had in recent years was with Horizon (a game I don't particularly like).
I heard a "Squawk" I turned around, looked up and silhoetted against the moon perfectly was a gaint robot bird swooping down, claws out about to attack.

That moment was intensely cinematic, even though it was (i assume) accidental and I was the one controlling the camera.
And I'd say that (as someone who is enjoys camera control) you can accomplish lots of things that make your game feel more cinematic if you lean into that. Vanquish is full of those moments if you play it that way.
That game is designed for you to show off cinematic moments during gameplay and loses nothing of it's playability.

 

[Hendrick's]

I despise cutscenes. If I can't skip them, I refuse to play the game. Devs need to get past this crutch, and make all storytelling done in-game.

 

[jaysius]

There have been fucking morons in R6 Siege that put their controllers down and then PICK THEM UP BY AND PRESS THE TRIGGERS IMMEDIATELY since forever. This leads to unintentional moronic TKing, it's unintentional because once that session the player realizes it they don't TK anymore.

I love cutscenes when they're full of content, when they're just masturbatory "look what we can do" or "this adds something"(when it adds nothing) I hate those parts.

 

[CatLady]

I'm OK with putting my controller down to watch interesting cutscenes as long as they aren't overly long, boring or don't add to the story.

I am SO not OK with slow walk & talk crap where I can't put my controller down but instead have to push forward and endure what is almost always overly long, boring BS that adds little to the story.

I also can NOT stand cutscenes and slow walk & talk that I can't skip or pause.

 

[Sosokrates]

Death stranding still on Ps+ peasant?