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Strategy/SRPGs - which are the cream of the crop?
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drohne said:
This is true. Even if it wasn't the first, Tactics Ogre's really the foundation upon which the strategy RPG genre is built. The isometric view, the standard grid, the way classes are integrated... in every way, it was just phenomenally influential.
Also, the story is simply amazing, as are the characters and the multiple endings.
Toss in graphics that haved aged incredibly well (sprites forever) and awesome Sakimoto + Iwata music and you're good to go.
Ninja Scooter
Member
sonarrat said:
I never played the SNES version (it wasn't localized), but I would imagine it loaded a lot faster -- naturally, being a cartridge-based game. I don't know how much faster it would be -- spell animations are slow, there's no question about that, and a lot of enemies have high HP relative to the damage your units deal out, and these probably weren't adjusted in the port.
I have heard the sound for both versions and I slightly prefer the SNES sound. Not a big deal, though.
Also, I understand a couple of story scenes were removed in the PSX version.
John Harker
Definitely doesn't make things up as he goes along.
Final Fantasy Tactics, Vandal Hearts 1 & 2 are my favorite.
I did enjoy Kartia though - and it had mutliplayer vs!
I did enjoy Kartia though - and it had mutliplayer vs!
i think calling them bad graphics is unfair. the presentation was excellent. the low poly models didn't help, but what really let it down was the stiff animation. They really needed to sharpen up their movements and match the energy you feel in the 2D games. What really got to me though was the way characters would just stand there like a statue and take a hit without moving a muscle. You'd think they'd at least animate a failed attempt to dodge/parry/counter attack etc.Speevy said:
RaySpencer
Member
GLADIUS BITCHES !!
fuck yeah, awesome game
fuck yeah, awesome game
Shouta
Member
Vandal Hearts: Not particularly good but the branching class system was somewhat neat and the sprites that reflect it are fun. A decent play if you're bored but otherwise not nearly as good as many other SRPGs
Hoshigami: Fun but you totally need to abuse the game systems to make it not brain hemmoragingly tough. Solid customization though.
Tactics Ogre: The grid based SRPG standard. Holds up well to this day but it still has problems primarily with how skewed the stat and equations for damage can be. Great story.
Ogre Battle: Not my favorite game because I really dislike the fact you don't get quite the precision control of your characters and customization like that of other SRPGs. Neat alignment system but too easily moved by little things.
Disgaea: Solid game but Geopanels act more like a puzzle element rather than a gameplay element that the player can use to its fullest extent. Ends up being more of an excercise in massive leveling after you complete to the main story.
Phantom Brave: Ends up being a level grind like Disgaea in the end but the confine system and the sphere grid was way more interesting to use in combat. However, the confine system also ended up being one of the bigger weaknesses of the game because it was quite frustrating at times having time limits on your strongest characters and etc.
Makai Kingdom: Level Grind problem yet again (as with all original N1 efforts). The primary combat system is simplecompared to either Phantom Brave and Disgaea but quite fun and nowhere near as frustrating.
Ogre Battle 64: Same problems as the original Ogre battle more or less but was easier overall.
Fire Emblem (PoR, SS, RnK): Well, I haven't played these but if they're anything like Thracia 776 (the last FE game I played), I prefer Berwick Saga.
Berwick Saga: From Shozo Kaga, the original creator of Fire Emblem. Basically goes and fixes most of my major complaints with the FE games. It's a difficult game but always fair. Also, a lot of the frustration with doing scenarios in general is alleviated.
Dragon Force: Decent asthetics and the concept of all those sprites on screen were kind of nice but the battle system was hyper shallow. The style of this game was done better as Brigandine on the PS.
Brigandine: Great game with tons of replay value. Same style as Dragon Force (pick a kingdom and see them through a campaign to rule the continent) but the gameplay mechanics were a straight forward SRPG using a hex grid system. Very nice leveling system in the game as well. Of all the RPGs I've ever played, I have put the most into this one.
Growlanser (I-IV): Excellent games overall. I/IV are the best and II/III are the worst. However, II and III do have some solid points to them. My favorite SRPG battle system currently.
Arc The Lad: (I-III, TotS): Not great from a strategy standpoint but decent playthroughs although Arc II can be overly long. Arc III is by far the most playable of the 4 games.
I'm probably missing something but oh well.
Hoshigami: Fun but you totally need to abuse the game systems to make it not brain hemmoragingly tough. Solid customization though.
Tactics Ogre: The grid based SRPG standard. Holds up well to this day but it still has problems primarily with how skewed the stat and equations for damage can be. Great story.
Ogre Battle: Not my favorite game because I really dislike the fact you don't get quite the precision control of your characters and customization like that of other SRPGs. Neat alignment system but too easily moved by little things.
Disgaea: Solid game but Geopanels act more like a puzzle element rather than a gameplay element that the player can use to its fullest extent. Ends up being more of an excercise in massive leveling after you complete to the main story.
Phantom Brave: Ends up being a level grind like Disgaea in the end but the confine system and the sphere grid was way more interesting to use in combat. However, the confine system also ended up being one of the bigger weaknesses of the game because it was quite frustrating at times having time limits on your strongest characters and etc.
Makai Kingdom: Level Grind problem yet again (as with all original N1 efforts). The primary combat system is simplecompared to either Phantom Brave and Disgaea but quite fun and nowhere near as frustrating.
Ogre Battle 64: Same problems as the original Ogre battle more or less but was easier overall.
Fire Emblem (PoR, SS, RnK): Well, I haven't played these but if they're anything like Thracia 776 (the last FE game I played), I prefer Berwick Saga.
Berwick Saga: From Shozo Kaga, the original creator of Fire Emblem. Basically goes and fixes most of my major complaints with the FE games. It's a difficult game but always fair. Also, a lot of the frustration with doing scenarios in general is alleviated.
Dragon Force: Decent asthetics and the concept of all those sprites on screen were kind of nice but the battle system was hyper shallow. The style of this game was done better as Brigandine on the PS.
Brigandine: Great game with tons of replay value. Same style as Dragon Force (pick a kingdom and see them through a campaign to rule the continent) but the gameplay mechanics were a straight forward SRPG using a hex grid system. Very nice leveling system in the game as well. Of all the RPGs I've ever played, I have put the most into this one.
Growlanser (I-IV): Excellent games overall. I/IV are the best and II/III are the worst. However, II and III do have some solid points to them. My favorite SRPG battle system currently.
Arc The Lad: (I-III, TotS): Not great from a strategy standpoint but decent playthroughs although Arc II can be overly long. Arc III is by far the most playable of the 4 games.
I'm probably missing something but oh well.
Tactics Ogre Let Us Cling Together is a classic, yet is still the best the genre has to offer. (And people should stop just calling it "Tactics Ogre"... if people get mixed up and pick up TO:KoL because of it, what an atrocity...)
From what I heard in summary:
TO:LUCT SS = TO:LUCT SFC + voice acting + remixed music
TO:LUCT PSX = TO:LUCT SFC + Load Time
I also disagree somewhat with what BobJustBob said about the two SRPG mentalities. I mean, he's sorta right. But I can't really take N1 SRPGs seriously because they're not about "strategy". They may be fun for certain types of people - that I can understand. But as SRPGs become less about strategy and more about exploiting systems, then it doesn't really live up to the genre's namesake.
ethelred said:
From what I heard in summary:
TO:LUCT SS = TO:LUCT SFC + voice acting + remixed music
TO:LUCT PSX = TO:LUCT SFC + Load Time
I also disagree somewhat with what BobJustBob said about the two SRPG mentalities. I mean, he's sorta right. But I can't really take N1 SRPGs seriously because they're not about "strategy". They may be fun for certain types of people - that I can understand. But as SRPGs become less about strategy and more about exploiting systems, then it doesn't really live up to the genre's namesake.
My absolute favorite SRPG series is the Ogre Battle saga (which is quite incomplete). Don't be fooled by the rather shitty GBA Tactics Ogre! The rest of the series is a lot better, though I agree with a post much earlier in this thread that says the original OB is a bit punishing by today's standards (and for that reason alone, it's my least favorite).
But, the Fire Emblem series is also high quality. I personally think FFT is one of the most overrated SRPGs ever... mostly because it's horribly balanced (all casters that aren't summoners suck, magic is poorly balanced and implemented, most melee can easily become godlike). But then again, I played Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together first, and that game is wonderfully balanced and challenging, while FFT can be way too easy for a lot of maps, and then way too hard for others, solely because of the poor class balance.
And for a series that's more on the RPG and less on the S, Shining Force is fun. It's ridiculously easy, but it's still fun (note: I haven't played SF3, any scenario, since I don't know Japanese and don't own a Saturn, so my opinion is just based upon the first 2). Vandal Hearts, IMO, borrows a lot from the Shining Force games, and the original's good... but I had some bug happen to me and I had to restart, and I couldn't sit through that laughably bad and overly long intro.
But, the Fire Emblem series is also high quality. I personally think FFT is one of the most overrated SRPGs ever... mostly because it's horribly balanced (all casters that aren't summoners suck, magic is poorly balanced and implemented, most melee can easily become godlike). But then again, I played Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together first, and that game is wonderfully balanced and challenging, while FFT can be way too easy for a lot of maps, and then way too hard for others, solely because of the poor class balance.
And for a series that's more on the RPG and less on the S, Shining Force is fun. It's ridiculously easy, but it's still fun (note: I haven't played SF3, any scenario, since I don't know Japanese and don't own a Saturn, so my opinion is just based upon the first 2). Vandal Hearts, IMO, borrows a lot from the Shining Force games, and the original's good... but I had some bug happen to me and I had to restart, and I couldn't sit through that laughably bad and overly long intro.
DonasaurusRex
Online Ho Champ
Warsong
Disciples 2
Shinning force 2
Disciples 2
Shinning force 2
Tactics Ogre:LUCT is my favorite. I played the gba game and liked it ok, but all the impressions mentioned that the original was much better so I ebayed the psx version and sure enough it was. Despite its age it still seemed fresh and offered many advantages over similar games that came after it. I'm glad I played games like FFT first otherwise they would have been big dissapointments after playing this one.
The class system in Let Us Cling Together is so deceptively simple, with how characters aren't really differentiated by tons and tons of special abilities. And yet then you realize how purely elegant the system is because a few hours in, it becomes clear how incredibly diverse you can customize your characters to be just by the different stat modifications from each class.
It seems like one of the most toned-down, meaningless systems at first because of the lack of all the bells & whistles, and yet it's not. Deceptively simple. Pure elegance. I love it.
It seems like one of the most toned-down, meaningless systems at first because of the lack of all the bells & whistles, and yet it's not. Deceptively simple. Pure elegance. I love it.
Beavertown
Garbage
Ninja Scooter said:
Poor man's Dragon Force.
Drinky Crow
Banned
Brigandine is vastly deeper than Dragon Force, and better designed to boot. Dragon Force's sole advantage is its fast pacing.
Tactics Ogre: LUCT is the best strategy RPG, period.
Tactics Ogre: LUCT is the best strategy RPG, period.
But Brigandine commits the cardinal sin of being *boring*. In terms of pure strategy, Dragon Force is definitely weaker, but the ability to get almost completely fresh stories on each successive playthrough as a different general and the visceral thrill of all those warriors on screen (with cool spells cast by you) puts Dragon Force above Brigandine in the play/replay department by a country mile.
Shame that DF II sucked, though. What were they *thinking*?
I would agree that it's definitely up there. I still prefer the Growlanser series overall. Getting I, IV, and V here is my mission!
Black/Matrix | Black Matrix AD | Black Matrix + (SS/DC/PSX) - based on a very warped version of biblical events, the game is very dark in tone with themes of prejudice. the game system is kinda unique because when characters die, their corpse remains on the ground. either you kill a corpse to completely remove an opponent, or spells can be cast to either regenerate them or even animate them as a zombie. there's also a weapon fusing concept and a biorhythm meter that makes certain types of magic stronger than others at any given time. each of the ports has advantages & disadvantages. I haven't finished the PSX one yet, but it might be the best compromise so far.
Black Matrix Zero (GBA) - while it maintains the whole blood point system, everything else is stripped or removed. it's not a remake of B/M, but rather a sequel or alternate story. the strategy is sadly dumbed down and while not bad, isn't very good either.
Dragon Force (SS) - why people like this game, I do not know. it's basically similar in setup to a KOEI game, except they strip it of all the cool things you could do in KOEI games and reduce it to simply fighting. yet, the battles are completely uninteresting. once you get past the "ZOMG!!! 100 vs 100 battles!!!" shell, it's completely hollow with very little you can do. the only strategy is to have the right type of units before you encounter an enemy. you can't even have mixed units. "strategy" is a misnomer
Front Mission (SFC) - i'm still in the beginning of the game, but I like it so far. i think it's neat how you can target different body parts (precursor to VS?!) and totally affect the enemy depending on which parts you destroy
Langrisser V (SS) - i love it! it's cool in that it has group units (like Advance Wars or KOEI games), but there's also a general who gives bonuses to units in the vicinity of him. plus CareerSoft knows how to design scenarios to be fun & strategic. I can't wait to try LangIV which is just sitting on my shelf
Ogre Battle (SNES) - as captivated as I was by screenshots of the game, when i bought it, i could not enjoy it. you don't really do much in the game except deploy units and point them in a general direction. battles are completely un-engaging because you don't have complete control over your units and while you can give them general guiding orders, they will likely not do what you want them to do. extremely frustrating loss-of-control game
Shining Force III (SS) - fun strategy game. it's not super hard to play through (except for the last battle !_!), but it has a friendship system where you gain additional bonuses by keeping your people alive.
Super Robot Taisen F Final (SS) - the actual strategy system is pretty basic, with the only options being how you defend against attacks. there's a lot of customization in your mecha. but ultimately, if you aren't fanboying/fangirling over the anime crossover orgy, then the game isn't very fun.
Tactics Ogre Let Us Cling Together (SS) - hard as nails gameplay. deaths are heavily penalized with no chance to revive for most of the game, so every loss is severe and makes your life harder for upcoming battles. i've played and replayed hr long scenarios like 10x before just to go through it unscathed. but it's a game that requires you to plan out your steps. and as frustrating as the difficulty is, it's also why i think it's the best the genre has to offer. the WT system is also brilliant in that you can do less/nothing in your current turn in order to have a faster next turn. it totally adds a timing dimension to the genre, which is much appreciated
Tactics Ogre Knight of Lodis (GBA) - of all the SRPGs I've played, this is the most basic one. and that is not a compliment. if you want a SRPG that requires no thinking whatsoever, TO:KoL is it. completely uninteresting and definitely the worst of this lot
(BoFV Dragon Quarter & Growlanser - while they have SRPG elements, I don't really consider them SRPGs. They're definitely strategic games... perhaps more so than a lot of the entries here. but it's hard to classify them with the rest of these that follow the standard SRPG protocol)
Black Matrix Zero (GBA) - while it maintains the whole blood point system, everything else is stripped or removed. it's not a remake of B/M, but rather a sequel or alternate story. the strategy is sadly dumbed down and while not bad, isn't very good either.
Dragon Force (SS) - why people like this game, I do not know. it's basically similar in setup to a KOEI game, except they strip it of all the cool things you could do in KOEI games and reduce it to simply fighting. yet, the battles are completely uninteresting. once you get past the "ZOMG!!! 100 vs 100 battles!!!" shell, it's completely hollow with very little you can do. the only strategy is to have the right type of units before you encounter an enemy. you can't even have mixed units. "strategy" is a misnomer
Front Mission (SFC) - i'm still in the beginning of the game, but I like it so far. i think it's neat how you can target different body parts (precursor to VS?!) and totally affect the enemy depending on which parts you destroy
Langrisser V (SS) - i love it! it's cool in that it has group units (like Advance Wars or KOEI games), but there's also a general who gives bonuses to units in the vicinity of him. plus CareerSoft knows how to design scenarios to be fun & strategic. I can't wait to try LangIV which is just sitting on my shelf
Ogre Battle (SNES) - as captivated as I was by screenshots of the game, when i bought it, i could not enjoy it. you don't really do much in the game except deploy units and point them in a general direction. battles are completely un-engaging because you don't have complete control over your units and while you can give them general guiding orders, they will likely not do what you want them to do. extremely frustrating loss-of-control game
Shining Force III (SS) - fun strategy game. it's not super hard to play through (except for the last battle !_!), but it has a friendship system where you gain additional bonuses by keeping your people alive.
Super Robot Taisen F Final (SS) - the actual strategy system is pretty basic, with the only options being how you defend against attacks. there's a lot of customization in your mecha. but ultimately, if you aren't fanboying/fangirling over the anime crossover orgy, then the game isn't very fun.
Tactics Ogre Let Us Cling Together (SS) - hard as nails gameplay. deaths are heavily penalized with no chance to revive for most of the game, so every loss is severe and makes your life harder for upcoming battles. i've played and replayed hr long scenarios like 10x before just to go through it unscathed. but it's a game that requires you to plan out your steps. and as frustrating as the difficulty is, it's also why i think it's the best the genre has to offer. the WT system is also brilliant in that you can do less/nothing in your current turn in order to have a faster next turn. it totally adds a timing dimension to the genre, which is much appreciated
Tactics Ogre Knight of Lodis (GBA) - of all the SRPGs I've played, this is the most basic one. and that is not a compliment. if you want a SRPG that requires no thinking whatsoever, TO:KoL is it. completely uninteresting and definitely the worst of this lot
(BoFV Dragon Quarter & Growlanser - while they have SRPG elements, I don't really consider them SRPGs. They're definitely strategic games... perhaps more so than a lot of the entries here. but it's hard to classify them with the rest of these that follow the standard SRPG protocol)
johnjohnson
Member
Nobiru said:GLADIUS BITCHES !!
fuck yeah, awesome game
Hell, yes! I loved that game! Hopefully LucasArts will do another SRPG using the Gladius mechanics sooner or later. Maybe in the Star Wars universe.
Shouta
Member
vireland said:
Well, in that respect, yeah DF is better than Brigandine. DF is a really fast game and the first time I went through it, it took me like 20-25 hours to get through. The first time I played through Brigandine, it took me like 50-60 hours because of how difficult it can be for starting players.
The other area DF does do better than Brigandine is presentation. However, Atlus and the studio that created Brigandine went back and did a 2-disc "Grand Edition" of the game that basically adds new story and a ton of drawn anime scenes for all the various sequences in the game as well as an anime opening instead of the CG one in the standard edition of the game. On top of that, there's quite a bit of gameplay fixes found in it.
I really don't find Brigandine boring though since the meat and potatoes of the game, the combat, is way more interesting. It has this Pokemon-esque feel to it with how you raise your monsters and knights from fledglings to the behemoth sized characters in terms of magic and power late into the game. There can be some truly epic battles in the game when huge forces clashing on each side.
vireland said:
Yeah, I definitely prefer Growlanser to Tactics Ogre/Ogre Battle. A lot more freeform and the sort of battle tactics you can use are much wider.
Have you checked out the new stuff that they just released for Growlanser V Vic? They updated the site a few days ago with a bunch of information including characters and gameplay systems.
Also, the first release of the Growlanser I translation that my friends and I have been working on is about ready. It's only covering several sections early in the game so far but we hopefully will have it all translated eventually.
Just throwing thse out there because no onw has mentioned them:
Myth II
Heroes of Might and Magic II and III
Disciples II and Age of Wonders II/Shadow Magic
So they're not Final Fantasy Tactics or Orge Battle, but they do contain both strategy and role-playing aspects. And they are all excellent games.
Myth II
Heroes of Might and Magic II and III
Disciples II and Age of Wonders II/Shadow Magic
So they're not Final Fantasy Tactics or Orge Battle, but they do contain both strategy and role-playing aspects. And they are all excellent games.
Final Fantasy Tactics. I am addicted to this game. I forced myself to stop playing my third game two weeks ago because I couldn't stop. Second best game in the entire series, even if it is a "spinoff," even if the translation sucks, the gameplay is awesome. Still holds up today.
I've always been a fan of the Langrisser series... I like SRPGs with fairly large parties, where winning is more based on positioning and flanking your whole army instead of single units. Plus, the Satoshi Urushihara artwork is gorgeous. IV is the cream of the Langrisser crop, although 1 (as Warsong) was the only one to come out domestically.
Waiting on the AGTP SFC Tactics Ogre translation, I never got around to playing this but after all the praise it receives, I should...
Didn't care much for FFT, thought the translation was horrible, job system was unbalanced (I didn't like how you could master Flare before Fire 1, for instance) and the game became too much of a grind fest, especially before the big boss battles.
I enjoy the Shining Force games, mainly for the personalities and the unique cast of characters you could get in your party. They are pretty basic, SRPG wise, but they have the town exploration that makes traditional RPGs so fun, something that is missing in most battle-heavy SRPGs.
Arc the Lad 2... more of a traditional RPG than purely strategy... but it was just such a long and epic adventure, that really felt satisfying upon completion. The first one is a good first SRPG for those not hardcore enough for a Matsuno one... the third one is just horrible - super easy, ugly, and annoying dialogue that drones on and on forever. TOTS for PS2 was a decent game though.
Waiting on the AGTP SFC Tactics Ogre translation, I never got around to playing this but after all the praise it receives, I should...
Didn't care much for FFT, thought the translation was horrible, job system was unbalanced (I didn't like how you could master Flare before Fire 1, for instance) and the game became too much of a grind fest, especially before the big boss battles.
I enjoy the Shining Force games, mainly for the personalities and the unique cast of characters you could get in your party. They are pretty basic, SRPG wise, but they have the town exploration that makes traditional RPGs so fun, something that is missing in most battle-heavy SRPGs.
Arc the Lad 2... more of a traditional RPG than purely strategy... but it was just such a long and epic adventure, that really felt satisfying upon completion. The first one is a good first SRPG for those not hardcore enough for a Matsuno one... the third one is just horrible - super easy, ugly, and annoying dialogue that drones on and on forever. TOTS for PS2 was a decent game though.
Musashi Wins!
FLAWLESS VICTOLY!
Victrix has good taste in this category, I'd listen to his impressions especially.
I hear Jagged Alliance Gold is coming to DS?!? Wow. They really need to get some of those old PC titles on there. That would be heaven.
Probably not relevant to the original question, but I'm quite curious about Field Commander at this point.
I hear Jagged Alliance Gold is coming to DS?!? Wow. They really need to get some of those old PC titles on there. That would be heaven.
Probably not relevant to the original question, but I'm quite curious about Field Commander at this point.
Fire Emblem for GBA is by far the best SRPG I have ever played. It is incredibly addictive. You won't be able to put it down after you get a few chapters in and get the hang of it.
FFT was my favorite before Fire Emblem, but Fire Emblem made me forget about FFT. Never played the Gamecube version so I can't comment on it.
FFT was my favorite before Fire Emblem, but Fire Emblem made me forget about FFT. Never played the Gamecube version so I can't comment on it.
Chairman Yang
if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
It's interesting how I love the concept of strategy RPGs and I think they have the most potential out of any kind of RPG, but 99% of them are sucky.
Maybe the difference is playing the "Grand Edition" (which I didn't know about). I know that after finishing the regular Brigandine, I would not have done it again. The presentation was just so budget that it didn't inspire me to do anything except file it away and check it off the list when done. I certainly never recommended it. It seems like the battle loading was a pain, too, but that could just be a foggy mis-memory.
Shouta
Member
vireland said:
The battle animations for the game are just bad. I turned them off after I finished the game the first time myself and left them off for all my subsequent plays through the game. The battle animations made battles feel horribly sluggish and they were slow to load and run.
KyanMehwulfe
Member
fatty said:
My Tactics Ogre Review
I also played Ring of Red a fair bit. I enjoyed it enough at first to buy it after a rental but within 20 hours or so I got bored. The gameplay is very slow and each map is very repetitive, similar, and monotonous. I still had interest in the story but I simply grew too bored of the gameplay to continue.
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