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[alstein]

[edit] I don't agree with them, by the way. I'd rather not deal with it. But, a lot of people aren't even GRASPING their thought process and it makes them sound dumb.

I grasp the thought process. This is why this game needs to bomb.

As for Magic, it's ironic that Sirlin of all folks has moved to card games, and is trying to use the traditional FG model there, while Capcom is trying to bring the Magic model to fighters.

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

I want a fuckin Fighting Game, Not a RPG

 

[Lothars]

In this case I agree, its a bullshit element and if the game is a success then we could/would see more of said bullshit, and the like, in future fighters.

I don't think Gems are the issue though, I think the biggest issue is the preorder gems, that shouldn't happen.

I don't want this game to fail and I don't think anyone else should either.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

The problem is not the gems, the problem is that by getting retailer exclusive DLC youre gaining a competitive edge.

Thats ridiculous bullshit.

Is it any different that character dlc?

 

[Makoto]

This seems like a very unnecessary system in an otherwise good looking game. Just went from day-one to wait for a sale.

 

[Bizazedo]

Right, and the worthless cards in M:TG exist to pad the distribution of the cards that are worthwhile and drive up their price. They keep the game financially viable, not tournament viable. Magic would be no less about deckbuilding if the distribution weren't flooded with crap cards because players that are worth a damn don't use said crap cards anyway. They exist within trading card games specifically to bring in more money.

The existence of less and more viable options is completely inevitable. There is no doubt about that and it is an unfortunate consequence of how difficult it is to balance a fighting game. The existence of redundant options is entirely avoidable and is a product of poor design and/or money grabbing.

So now that you understand their thought process, why the confusion?

Seriously. Some people enjoy that style of game, still. It is what it is.

Raging Spaniard has the right of it, the only "real" issue is the pre-order / possible DLC gems being superior to the standard gems and being unavailable. That becomes moot if they're proven to be weak over what's unlocked in the game normally, but my confidence in that is about zero.

I grasp the thought process. This is why this game needs to bomb.

My comment wasn't directed at everyone who wanted it to bomb, just those who have no idea what deck construction even is in Magic or why that game works.

 

[marathonfool]

Only way this game has legs in the tourney scene is the banning of pre-order gems. A new menu interface that allows you to choose the gems from the character select screen by both players. Currently, the gem menu is entirely in a separate screen for one character.

The latter being most important. If players already know their gems, at least they can quickly select them based on the numerical label.

 

[Fersis]

It begins:

Still kinda early to say, but I'm 90% against Gems being allowed in a CEO tournament. U have a choice not to choose any gems before matches

 

[Fugu]

[edit] I don't agree with them, by the way. I'd rather not deal with it. But, a lot of people aren't even GRASPING their thought process and it makes them sound dumb.

I grasp the thought process. It's pandering, and they're implementing a system that makes the options appear more prevalent than they actually are. It's so tempting to view it as game development with an agenda only because the market they're trying to appeal to -- people who want to buy less tournament-oriented fighting games wrapped around tournament mechanics -- doesn't exist, and even if they did, they would be fairly readily bitten on the entrance because this kind of shit just begs for "cheap" play.

So now that you understand their thought process, why the confusion?

Seriously. Some people enjoy that style of game, still. It is what it is.

Raging Spaniard has the right of it, the only "real" issue is the pre-order / possible DLC gems being superior to the standard gems and being unavailable. That becomes moot if they're proven to be weak over what's unlocked in the game normally, but my confidence in that is about zero.


My comment wasn't directed at everyone who wanted it to bomb, just those who have no idea what deck construction even is in Magic or why that game works.

What? I have always understood their thought process. This is quite explicitly a money grab.

No, people do not enjoy paying excessive amounts of money to achieve parity. Ask any M:TG fan if they would stop playing if the game got cheaper to do so. You would get a fairly resounding no. This only benefits Capcom.

The issue remains that gems present an obstruction to balance that will have a limiting effect on the metagame. There's not a chance in hell that a sizable amount of the characters will be balanced for tournament play, particularly when stacked against the amount of characters that would have been balanced for tournament play given the absence of gems throughout the development process.

 

[SolarPowered]

I was a good boy and read the entire article before commenting.

I like it. That's all there is too it; this is NOT too complex as people are making it out to be. You want complex? Play MVC3. That's a game with near infinite complexity in selecting 3 member team combinations, assist types, order you pick characters in, etc. I think it's kind of hypocritical to claim Capcom has "overburdened the genre" with this concept while not saying the same thing about a game like Marvel.

But anyway... there aren't as many variables to take into account once the chart is understood. It really just boils down to: 10, 20, or 30 percent boost in one of a few categories, and if you want that boost activated by attack or by defense. Essentially, you decide if you want to have a mild comeback mechanic or a mild aggression mechanic.

Also, for those who didn't bother to read the article, some gems DO take up more than one slot, and the "assist" gems are basically noob tools that nobody will use outside a noob; having a block assist that eats a bar of super meter is not something that's going to let you win the game without trying.

I don't know... thinking about this a bit, I just don't see the problem (with the system, NOT talking about the marketing department getting their hands into pre-order bullshit). None of this shit is game breaking OR stuff that destroys fundamentals. There aren't like gems that change size or weight of a character; stuff like that. It mostly seems that the gems enable maximizing damage and combos when you get an opening and can activate the gems during that opening. The speed gems are the most scary, since obviously you'll have a Zangief who can book it for a few seconds and screw with your expectations of how to keep Zangief out. But fuck it, that sounds kind of exciting.

You KNOW that the pre-order packs will probably be DLC later on. It's not like they're going to be forever exclusive to the people who pre-ordered. So... bitch about the pre-order shenanigans, that is bullshit, but the gem system is no more mental overhead than learning how to build a team in Marvel and use it correctly. It's not like you're going to switch gem combinations all the time. You'll use what works for you and change if you feel something doesn't fit.

The problem is not the gems, the problem is that by getting retailer exclusive DLC youre gaining a competitive edge.

Thats ridiculous bullshit.

It is a little more than that for me. You could go to the store and sixty bucks used to be enough to get you what you need for the full experience on the console or PC. X-Factor may be a gimmick mechanic tossed in there to levellol) the playing field for newbies, but at least you got the entirety of the game in a single package and ALL your possible choices are on disc in the game.

Gems themselves look pretty crazy compared to gimmicks like X-Factor that amount to four simultaneous button presses and the worst part is that the entire package is not even on disc. A lot of people have lamented the direction that Capcom fighters have gone in relative to the rest of the genre and with DLC(extra money) gems rearing their heads you have to wonder...

Is the Capcom/SFxTekken experience so valuable that you have to start PAYING money for that extra edge(very different from nice little alt dlc costumes)? Keep in mind that I'm not trying to be aggressive about this. The thought has been fermenting in my mind for a little while now.

Skullgirls is worth the $15, KOF is worth the price, Mahvel's price barrier is reasonable and so is the price for most fighters like SF and Tekken. Is SFxTekken going to be worth the potential $80 or $100+ when it is all said done? I don't know, guys...

 

[h3ro]

I think I'm just gonna buy KOF13 and BBCSEX to get my fix. SFIVAEv2012 and Mahvel will remain my mainstays.

 

[zlatko]

These don't seem that bad honestly. The only down side is the pre order ones being so much better than the standard ones.

I'll be going the Best Buy route for pre-order for the lightning legs for dat +speed.

I was expecting more "help the noobies" stuff to show up, but I only see auto block, auto throw, and simple command inputs all at the cost of meter. No meter, no gem effect. Seems like a fair trade off to me.

Will buy for Rolento. Hopefully they give an online ranked mode that is gemless as an option.

 

[IC_Champion]

The thing that irks me the most was when Seth was fighting against someone else using Gems (there is a video somewhere, but most Gaffers know what I am talking about), that that this player had the upper hand. That is absurd. We all know that Seth Killian is a trickster, he knows how to go around a fight in which he is cornered. Him trying to sell that a new player can beat a veteran using this Gem system is laughable to me. Most fighting fans that frequent Capcom Unity know also how to work around that gimmick.

 

[SupaNaab]

Wow so gems only affect the character that activates them? In the video in the OP Ken activates his gems and performs a combo where Ryu is switched in. Ryu doesn't glow whatsoever.

 

[LegatoB]

Also, for those who didn't bother to read the article, some gems DO take up more than one slot, and the "assist" gems are basically noob tools that nobody will use outside a noob; having a block assist that eats a bar of super meter is not something that's going to let you win the game without trying.

Without trying? Nah. But would I pay a bar of meter to avoid getting killed off a mixup that I failed to block which lead into a 30% combo to finish me off? Yeah, that's a good trade.

Honestly, Gems sound like a waste of everyone's time more than anything else. Because they were so paranoid of "breaking the game," there are no interesting effects on the majority of the gems. It's like Pandora -- we wanted a comeback mechanic, but we didn't want to completely infuriate the hardcore players who hate that shit, so we'll make one that is extremely risky and probably won't pay off most of the time. Tacking on 20% extra damage to a combo is significant, certainly, but does it actually add anything to the strategic play of the game? Well, no; most of the conditions are things that would come into play over the course of a match anyway. Now I'm just getting a slight reward for it.

I'm not a fan of the setup time that this will add to tournaments. Especially if they do it MK-style, and force you to go out to a separate menu to create your Gem sets before selecting them in Versus. "Oh, sorry, we need to wait five minutes while the loser of the first set changes his team, and picks new gem sets for them." Yeah, that'll go over extremely well. A system like Arcana Heart's Arcanas, which not only change character properties but also provide new tools to complement a character's base moveset, or CvS2's Grooves, would've provided MORE meaningful player choices while not adding significantly to setup time.

Pre-order gems will be banned in tournaments, so they're only a problem online.

Capcom is obviously desperate to try and hook more casual players and get them to spend more money on their purchase by throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks. Gems just managed to be limp-dicked and extraordinarily offensive to the fanbase on principle.

 

[kirblar]

They really someone to give them straight talk on this stuff. Tourney-banned for sure.

 

[Tizoc]

It begins:

Where's that from?

 

[Fersis]

Where's that from?

CEO Jebailey twitter. (He's the dood that runs CEO)

Gem's effects seem barely noticeable, other than the obnoxious flashing colors and long select times. I think I'll disallow them at UFGT8.

its not a gameplay related ban with gems. Its due to the time-cost for a large tournament.

 

[shaowebb]

They misspelled "divine" every single time before the pre-order and special edition lists. Just saying.

Onto the gems I only have one thing to say...these look so broken it hurts. Opponent activates Pandora and you get a 30+ to defense? Land 5 normals and you get a 10+ to attack? And those pre-order ones...stuff yields too much for too little effort. I heard you can turn them off though. Is this true? If so I'm betting tourney is 9/10 gem free matches.

Kinda sad...these and Pandora killed my excitement for this game after the Poison announcement had me pumped for it maybe being awesome. These mechanics and the onslaught of cast with no business in this title have me just about cooled off on this game now. Honestly man...Sony cats, Cole, and maybe Megaman and Pacman? Whats next? Throw in Goku from your DBZ license Namco and Capcom jams in Dark Void to break the game with flight?

 

[Parallax Scroll]

why not go the smash route? people love it and play it competitively, even though it's meant as a party game, because you can just disable all the items. not that hard to do.

no gems

ryu and kazuya only

final destination

 

[enzo_gt]

The real winner of the gems system?

Fersis.

EDIT: How the fuck can Keits say the effects are barely noticable?

 

[Fugu]

Without trying? Nah. But would I pay a bar of meter to avoid getting killed off a mixup that I failed to block which lead into a 30% combo to finish me off? Yeah, that's a good trade.

BB and GG have a move called the dead angle, which is basically a less safe version of this. There is definitely value in a "spend meter to not die" proposition, especially considering this gives you guaranteed safety as opposed to still mostly relying on a correct guess, like dead angling does.

 

[sixteen-bit]

The real winner of the gems system?

Fersis.

Plenty of 2012 fighting games to buy instead of this.

 

[Fersis]

The real winner of the gems system?

Fersis.

EDIT: How the fuck can Keits say the effects are barely noticable?

Gotta agree with this one.

* Highs five with haunts *

Plenty of 2012 fighting games to buy instead of this.

Were just joking man.

 

[Raging Spaniard]

Is it any different that character dlc?

Yes.

Capcom at least gives you a game overhaul (AE) and new characters are not necessarily better characters. Those gems are obviously better.

 

[Kai Dracon]

It is a little more than that for me. You could go to the store and sixty bucks used to be enough to get you what you need for the full experience on the console or PC. X-Factor may be a gimmick mechanic tossed in there to levellol) the playing field for newbies, but at least you got the entirety of the game in a single package and ALL your possible choices are on disc in the game.

Gems themselves look pretty crazy compared to gimmicks like X-Factor that amount to four simultaneous button presses and the worst part is that the entire package is not even on disc. A lot of people have lamented the direction that Capcom fighters have gone in relative to the rest of the genre and with DLC(extra money) gems rearing their heads you have to wonder...

Is the Capcom/SFxTekken experience so valuable that you have to start PAYING money for that extra edge(very different from nice little alt dlc costumes)? Keep in mind that I'm not trying to be aggressive about this. The thought has been fermenting in my mind for a little while now.

Skullgirls is worth the $15, KOF is worth the price, Mahvel's price barrier is reasonable and so is the price for most fighters like SF and Tekken. Is SFxTekken going to be worth the potential $80 or $100+ when it is all said done? I don't know, guys...

No, I agree with you that the problem here is the DLC / monetization angle. First, I don't go in for all paranoid "the man is screwing you" theories, so I won't say that the gem system is something thought up purely so that there could be DLC for a minority of gems. If that were the case, the game would only have like 3 "starter" gems on the disc and everything would be microtransaction. I do believe the claims that the team was trying to think of a different angle on gameplay customization.

But, the pre-order fiasco has placed a cloud over it and that is helping to make people see this as an inherently negative thing. It has enabled a straw man for folks to slot the game into in their headbox; "LOLOLOL BUY UR WAY 2 WINNING; LOLOLOL IZZA MAGIC THE FIGHTING GAME." Now, tons of people are dismissing the game with a kneejerk reaction and not even bothering to try and think it through.

 

[HardRojo]

Is it any different that character dlc?

Yes, there's a little difference, preorder/retailer exclusive gems mean there will be no way for everyone to be able to have the same gems and whatnot unless they make it paid DLC in the future which brings us to the next point, you have the option to PAY for certain advantages in a competitive game, of course it won't matter during casual play but when you go and play online it won't be nice to lose to someone with vitality recover gems and other bullshit they might add.

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

I'd guess for tournaments you could just ensure all gems are set to only activate during pandora if that mode's still pretty useless.

 

[SamVimes]

I defended gems because we didn't have enough details but this truly sucks.

 

[GrayFoxPL]

 

[Masaki_]

 

[CPS2]

It's been my experience that fighting game players, on the whole, don't like it when things are "random" or upset their "If target did A, B will always work as a counter".

The gems threaten all that since it can make characters behave differently and make certain things work / not work.

I think we still have to wait and see how much this is the case. The more likely thing that I can see is, if target did A, B will always work as a counter, but will do +/-10-30% damage depending on gems.

Speed gems and the cancel assist gems may affect combos and punishers, but this game has chain combos on the ground and is affected by juggle limits more than anything, so I actually doubt that adding links and cancels on the ground is going to change very much.

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

complicated BS

urgh

 

[Bizazedo]

What? I have always understood their thought process. This is quite explicitly a money grab.

No, people do not enjoy paying excessive amounts of money to achieve parity. Ask any M:TG fan if they would stop playing if the game got cheaper to do so. You would get a fairly resounding no. This only benefits Capcom.

This is said by someone who never experienced the rush of opening packs or boxes and wondering what you'd get. Or trade.

That and players never really know what's best for them. Yeah, I said it.

The issue remains that gems present an obstruction to balance that will have a limiting effect on the metagame. There's not a chance in hell that a sizable amount of the characters will be balanced for tournament play, particularly when stacked against the amount of characters that would have been balanced for tournament play given the absence of gems throughout the development process.

Irrelevant. Still missing the point. The game isn't made for you.

EDIT: How the fuck can Keits say the effects are barely noticable?

Rolling my eyes at that, myself. 10-30% seems large. Sounds like an excuse to justify banning it to me instead of blaming the system.

Especially if gem choices CAN be made quickly due to people knowing what they want. Or just team lock the tournies, including gems. Bang, quick.

That'd be logical, though, so F that and make excuses.

 

[IC_Champion]

Whether or not I buy this game hinges completely on whether or not you can turn gems off.

Maybe this will answer your question.

 

[kirblar]

M:TG has absolutely nothing in common with the Gem system. This is like if you had to pay for extra assists in MvC3.

 

[LegatoB]

Irrelevant. Still missing the point. The game isn't made for you.

We know. That's why we're treating it as the joke that it is.

Especially if gem choices CAN be made quickly due to people knowing what they want. Or just team lock the tournies, including gems. Bang, quick.

You're right, we should change the standard rules for how American fighting game tournaments are run to suit one poorly-designed game. While we're at it, we should bring back single elimination, single-set events.

 

[Bizazedo]

M:TG has absolutely nothing in common with the Gem system. This is like if you had to pay for extra assists in MvC3.

Sure it does.

Got your starter deck (default gems), your booster included (pre-order), and the theory is eventual DLC due to Capcom comments (more / new boosters!).

 

[shaowebb]

no gems

ryu and kazuya only

final destination

So which characters do we ban outright if we do it smash style? Who gets to be Pitt and Metaknight? Cole and Kitties maybe...
Oh yeah and the only so many ledge grabs per match rule I guess applies to maybe team moves or something? No flying to an area an opponent cant reach or DQ?...we'll just wait for them to add Launchpad from Ducktales to enforce that in SFxT lol...

LOL...smash bros tourneys have like a novel of restrictions to them in an attempt to balance them.

This does bring up a good point though. We can already see pre-order gems getting sacked at tourney. How many other things do you think will get chosen by fans about this game to be banned at tourney to keep it honest? Console exclusive cast for certain, but do you think gems will outright be banned? How about Pandora?

These aren't exactly strong signs for this title to me considering where things are going.

 

[Windom Earle]

I was actually looking forward to this game once...

 

[Xater]

Ahahahaha, I knew the moment they said there will be retailer exclusive gems tha tths was a bad idea. Looking at this pretty much confirmed it. Of course the DLC shit has some better Gems.

With gems this will never turn into a competitive fighting game. And I am sure not buying this game now at all.

 

[Bizazedo]

We know. That's why we're treating it as the joke that it is.

They're not treating it as a joke. They're acting like their hearts got stomped on and they were personally insulted.

You're right, we should change the standard rules for how American fighting game tournaments are run to suit one poorly-designed game. While we're at it, we should bring back single elimination, single-set events.

Team tournaments have character lock as it is now. Curley Mustache is espousing best 3 out of 5 for Marvel.

OH NOEZ.

 

[Slamtastic]

But would I pay a bar of meter to avoid getting killed off a mixup that I failed to block which lead into a 30% combo to finish me off? Yeah, that's a good trade.

Breakers.

Problem solved.

Capcom at least gives you a game overhaul (AE) and new characters are not necessarily better characters. Those gems are obviously better.

Uhhh..

 

[Fugu]

This is said by someone who never experienced the rush of opening packs or boxes and wondering what you'd get. Or trade.

I asked you for your experience so that I could avoid making wrong assumptions like these ones.

Irrelevant. Still missing the point. The game isn't made for you.

Heh, you're damn straight it's not made for me, because I enjoy playing great fighting games in a balanced environment.

 

[kirblar]

Sure it does.

Got your starter deck (default gems), your booster included (pre-order), and the theory is eventual DLC due to Capcom comments (more / new boosters!).

M:TG is random and the trading/lottery aspect is a big deal.

This is RPG fighter, and it's going to end badly.

 

[shaowebb]

I was actually looking forward to this game once...

Me too ;_;
I haven't cared for Tekken in a long while, but this game had me interested in using their cast again. The announcement of Poison after years of hoping for her in a game had me pumped. I was SO excited to play her. Sadly, one long sought character in a game thats got this gems stuff throwing advantages in random directions to folks who either bought specials editions, packs or from certain retailers has me feeling pretty cheated.

Maybe someday used and in a bargain bin just to play Poison, but not at launch. Not like this. Not when my fighting game would feel like a bad run of Magic the Gathering deck building mechanics. Should've just been a mode like Heroes and Heralds for UMVC3 instead of a core mechanic. Look at the fan reactions to each system. HH is loved and Gems is reviled. Main reason? One is meant to screw around in optionally because it looks abusable, the other looks abusable but isn't optional.

 

[Bizazedo]

Heh, you're damn straight it's not made for me, because I enjoy playing great fighting games in a balanced environment.

I'm considering cancelling my own pre-order, myself. I like Magic the Gathering a lot, but I don't know if I want it mixed with fighting games.

At least not at the $60 pricepoint.

M:TG is random and the trading/lottery aspect is a big deal.

This is RPG fighter, and it's going to end badly.

One of the tournament types is random and trading / lottery. The others aren't.

I always preferred type one, myself.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

Yes.

Capcom at least gives you a game overhaul (AE) and new characters are not necessarily better characters. Those gems are obviously better.

That's only SF4. There are other games that just offer you characters for a price.


The new Soul Calibur has an exclusive preorder character.

Yes, there's a little difference, preorder/retailer exclusive gems mean there will be no way for everyone to be able to have the same gems and whatnot unless they make it paid DLC in the future which brings us to the next point, you have the option to PAY for certain advantages in a competitive game, of course it won't matter during casual play but when you go and play online it won't be nice to lose to someone with vitality recover gems and other bullshit they might add.

It really does sound like a competitive card game.

 

[Teknopathetic]

I guess I'll have to wait for TTT2 to get some quality time with Julia. Here's hoping Soul Calibur 5 has good netcode.

 

[Slamtastic]

I'm a little curious, as to how much of the Gem outrage is from what specific elements.

The gameplay customization angle Ono desires is interesting, I'm just wondering if elements like being in a "Street Fighter" (Xetc.) game, being announced after the initial announcement, paying money, etc. affect it. This Gem business has me thinking of how a new IP could try to implement gameplay character customization in a fighter in a good way (and a more interesting way than stat boosts). But I wonder if people would inherently hate on the concept, or just this specific implementation.