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[sleepykyo]

Oh, now you guys want to post.

Just demonstrates the important of an eye-catching thread title.

 

[kehs]

And…that's exactly what they're doing, if you've been following recent third party reports and Apple's own annual reports.

The profit and margin argument is an interesting one. Other companies, as well as Apple, can price their products to whatever they want. Foxconn or other suppliers aren't demanding that Apple, Acer, Asus, Samsung, or others to price tablets and phones for a set margin.

Why doesn't company X demand that Foxconn raise wages by Y percent and sell the product at a higher price or margin? The reason is because consumers could give two shits about labor rights in a far away country and just want good products at cheap prices--and we're all guilty of it. Most of us here (gaf) own computers, phones, and tablets sourced and made with cheap labor and we're not doing anything about it.

But are they doing it because of backlash or because of morals? I'll be honest I've never given it much thought, but going forward I'm making a conscious decision to not buy products out of those factories, price be damned. I'm motivated by not just these recent reports, but my bamas latest speech. I just hope tech companies step up start producing products here in the US.

 

[Baconsammy]

any number of companies can do that. Just because companies like Nintendo or Samsung don't make AS MUCH money as Apple, that somehow makes them less guilty? All of these companies are rolling in more money than they will ever need. They could just as easily afford to control their own manufacturing processes too.

This thread isn't about Nintendo, though, is it? It's about Apple. These kids aren't being forced to work for Nintendo. It's driven by Apple. If you find evidence that Nintendo is as heinous, start a thread. We'll rip them to shreds for being heartless, money-grubbing scumbags too.

 

[numble]

This thread isn't about Nintendo, though, is it? It's about Apple. These kids aren't being forced to work for Nintendo. It's driven by Apple. If you find evidence that Nintendo is as heinous, start a thread. We'll rip them to shreds for being heartless, money-grubbing scumbags too.

They're working for Foxconn, who also make things for Nintendo...

 

[Ninja Scooter]

This thread isn't about Nintendo, though, is it? It's about Apple. These kids aren't being forced to work for Nintendo. It's driven by Apple. If you find evidence that Nintendo is as heinous, start a thread. We'll rip them to shreds for being heartless, money-grubbing scumbags too.

This thread is about Foxconn. It's only about Apple if you want to keep your head in the sand.

 

[~Kinggi~]

That's seriously fucked up.

"Hey kids! So we have a new surprise course for you all, it is very good course cause it teaches you real work experience etc. Now get to work, 12 hour days only so its not as bad as the real thing, be happy!"

 

[giga]

True but it seems like Apple is responsible for making Foxconn turn production up to 11 for iPhone5 where as other companies are happy with 6-8 production...

Nah man, they all suck. Here's a recent china labor watch report on Samsung: http://www.chinalaborwatch.org/pdf/Samsung Report 0904-v3.pdf

However, new investigations by CLW have revealed that the treatment of Samsung’s Chinese factory workers is far from model. Indeed, the list of illegal and inhumane violations is long, including but not limited to well over 100 hours of forced overtime work per month, unpaid work, standing for 11 to 12 hours while working, underage workers, severe age and gender discrimination, abuse of student and labor dispatch workers, a lack of worker safety, and verbal and physical abuse. Moreover, workers lack of any effective internal grievance channel by which to rectify these transgressions.

But are they doing it because of backlash or because of morals? I'll be honest I've never given it much thought, but going forward I'm making a conscious decision to not buy products out of those factories, price be damned. I'm motivated by not just these recent reports, but my bamas latest speech. I just hope tech companies step up start producing products here in the US.

They as in Foxconn? Most likely backlash.

 

[MThanded]

This thread isn't about Nintendo, though, is it? It's about Apple. These kids aren't being forced to work for Nintendo. It's driven by Apple. If you find evidence that Nintendo is as heinous, start a thread. We'll rip them to shreds for being heartless, money-grubbing scumbags too.

This thread is about Foxconn though not Apple. iPhone 5 in the title makes sure it gets page views(that goes for the news article and this thread).

 

[Cipherr]

second thread on this, no?

Twice the fun. Get to watch people freak out over the same story a second time.

 

[diamount]

Oh look, we already have idiots blaming Apple.

Why are you being a corporate apologist?

 

[Takamura-San]

True but it seems like Apple is responsible for making Foxconn turn production up to 11 for iPhone5 where as other companies are happy with 6-8 production...

Do you have any data backing this up?

They are all to blame.

 

[numble]

This thread isn't about Nintendo, though, is it? It's about Apple. These kids aren't being forced to work for Nintendo. It's driven by Apple. If you find evidence that Nintendo is as heinous, start a thread. We'll rip them to shreds for being heartless, money-grubbing scumbags too.

Here's a report about, amongst other things, use of student interns in manufacture of Wiis:
http://makeitfair.org/en/the-facts/...9/playing-with-labour-rights/at_download/file

Go to town.

 

[kehs]

Twice the fun. Get to watch people freak out over the same story a second time.

To be fair, the first one was just firing squad assassination on my character.

They as in Foxconn? Most likely backlash.

Foxconn and whichever company they are working for, I won't pretend to separate the two. If we're aware of what's happening those guys at the higher levels of companies sourcing the production are also aware, they're just shielded by legal papers.

 

[~Kinggi~]

To be fair, the first one was just firing squad assassination on my character.

To be fair, you are property of NeoGaf.

 

[MThanded]

Why are you being a corporate apologist?

I hire a guy to come remodel my house. Gives me a quote and I accept the offer. The guy says he has certified and insured workers, comes to find out he had preschoolers mounting cabinets and 1st graders grouting the tile.

Do I take the blame?

 

[DietRob]

I hire a guy to come remodel my house. Gives me a quote and I accept the offer. The guy says he has certified and insured workers, comes to find out he had preschoolers mounting cabinets.

Do I take the blame?

Did you see them in your house? Did you do anything to stop it? Did you fire the contractor?

If not, yes you are complicit.

In a moral sense I suppose not in a criminal sense.

 

[~Kinggi~]

I hire a guy to come remodel my house. Gives me a quote and I accept the offer. The guy says he has certified and insured workers, comes to find out he had preschoolers mounting cabinets and 1st graders grouting the tile.

Do I take the blame?

You do if you tell the man to proceed, and then enjoy the cheap labor.


Apple should now be expected to raise hell over this.

 

[Beerman462]

I hire a guy to come remodel my house. Gives me a quote and I accept the offer. The guy says he has certified and insured workers, comes to find out he had preschoolers mounting cabinets and 1st graders grouting the tile.

Do I take the blame?

When you hire him again and again after finding out.....yes.

Also the everyone else is doing it excuse stopped working in grade school. Apple is THE industry leader and other companies already have trouble competing with Apples margins. If they pulled out of foxxconn others could follow.

 

[watershed]

I hire a guy to come remodel my house. Gives me a quote and I accept the offer. The guy says he has certified and insured workers, comes to find out he had preschoolers mounting cabinets and 1st graders grouting the tile.

Do I take the blame?

I'm sure every company that uses foxconn knows of the work conditions, they just don't do anything about it because the cheap and fast labor helps them sell more units at bigger profits.

 

[diamount]

I hire a guy to come remodel my house. Gives me a quote and I accept the offer. The guy says he has certified and insured workers, comes to find out he had preschoolers mounting cabinets and 1st graders grouting the tile.

Do I take the blame?

I guess it totally depends on your contractual arrangements with said person. But assuming Apple would take a hit so the workers could have better conditions is naive, they choose China to have things made so it's obvious.

 

[MThanded]

Did you see them in your house? Did you do anything to stop it? Did you fire the contractor?

If not, yes you are complicit.

In a moral sense I suppose not in a criminal sense.

I'm betting Apple heard about this about the same time we did. I'm also betting it has been rectified. But I cannot confirm that. I know with previous labor issues like this they have righted the wrongs pretty quickly.

In general what goes on with Foxconn is really shady. I think implicating Apple as the problem is probably misguided.

 

[EulaCapra]

Be grateful for your new iPhones. Yuck.

 

[MThanded]

Be grateful for your new electronic devices. Yuck.

Fixed. You all have blood on your hands(figuratively).

 

[DietRob]

I'm betting Apple heard about this about the same time we did. I'm also betting it has been rectified. But I cannot confirm that. I know with previous labor issues like this they have righted the wrongs pretty quickly.

In general what goes on with Foxconn is really shady. I think implicating Apple as the problem is probably misguided.

Do me a favor and read my other posts in this thread.

 

[watershed]

Really? Like foxconn workers commiting suicide so they install an anti-suicide net? Or workers killing themselves so they give everyone a small raise which does nothing to improve the working conditions that lead to the suicides in the first place?

 

[numble]

I'm betting Apple heard about this about the same time we did. I'm also betting it has been rectified. But I cannot confirm that. I know with previous labor issues like this they have righted the wrongs pretty quickly.

In general what goes on with Foxconn is really shady. I think implicating Apple as the problem is probably misguided.

It was rectified. Hopefully some school administrators and government officials get sacked.

http://www.china.org.cn/china/2012-09/07/content_26454668.htm

Schools in Huai'an in east China's Jiangsu Province have started to bring back students, who were forced to work at a Foxconn factory and suspend their academic studies for the upcoming new semester, following an official notice.

According to the statement, the Huai'an government has ordered higher education institutions to strictly follow the policies and correct the violations. But students who volunteered to do internship in the factory could stay, China National Radio reported yesterday.

The city government issued the statement after it was reported that thousands of students were driven to a factory run by Taiwan's Foxconn Technology Company since the plant couldn't find sufficient workers for the production of Apple's much-anticipated iPhone 5.

Students accused the local government of forcing schools to send massive labor to Foxconn, Apple's main contract manufacturer, in an attempt to gain favor with the company which has helped boost the local GDP.

The company is in bad need of workers. At an earlier press conference, Chen Tao, deputy mayor of Huai'an, allegedly give priority to Foxconn's recruitment for three months since August while the factory promised 400 yuan (US$63.04) as introduction fee per worker, the report said.

But the government neither gave any clarification on the students' allegations nor revealed details of the schools' violations.

Some students have returned to classes after their schools cancelled the internship program with Foxconn. Yet hundreds of students are still working in the factory.

Local teachers and education officials said the internships were a compulsory course for students to experience working conditions and promote individual ability.

During the one- to two-month internship, the students would work on the production line and were paid 1,550 yuan a month for working six days a week, students said.

 

[MThanded]

Do me a favor and read my other posts in this thread.

That wasn't for you. It was a response to people in general. Probably shouldn't have quoted your post.

 

[twofold]

I'm betting Apple heard about this about the same time we did. I'm also betting it has been rectified. But I cannot confirm that. I know with previous labor issues like this they have righted the wrongs pretty quickly.

In general what goes on with Foxconn is really shady. I think implicating Apple as the problem is probably misguided.

I reckon they already knew about this sort of stuff happening. I reckon every company knows about it. That's why the media needs to point out how fucked up the business practises are of every company instead of focusing solely on Apple - it's the only way things will change.

 

[~Kinggi~]

It was rectified. Hopefully some school administrators and government officials get sacked.

http://www.china.org.cn/china/2012-09/07/content_26454668.htm

But students who volunteered to do internship in the factory could stay, China National Radio reported yesterday.

"Listen kids, bad things will happen if you dont volunteer to stay!!"

Wouldn't be surprised at all if thats how it played out. Wonder what the # is for that.

 

[jerry1594]

The bottom line is profit. Profit is derived from the consumers, so everyone who contributes to all these companies' profits bears some responsibility.

 

[MThanded]

I reckon they already knew about this sort of stuff happening. I reckon every company knows about it. That's why the media needs to point out how fucked up the business practises are of every company instead of focusing solely on Apple - it's the only way things will change.

Apple/iPhone in the article title gets page views. Other companies, not so much.

 

[WickedCobra03]

This thread isn't about Nintendo, though, is it? It's about Apple. These kids aren't being forced to work for Nintendo. It's driven by Apple. If you find evidence that Nintendo is as heinous, start a thread. We'll rip them to shreds for being heartless, money-grubbing scumbags too.

Basically this. If Apple is going to do this, give some of those billions of dollars you just made in the last few years as a bonus, or say, improve conditions that the workers in China have to work in on a daily basis, ect.

This is terrible, just in that juxtapose those white apple stores in suburban US where rich snobs are complaining about their phone is outdated and they need a new one, to the workers in China not seeing a dime from the people buying $500 phones on a yearly basis... :|

Sick.

 

[MThanded]

Basically this. If Apple is going to do this, give some of those billions of dollars you just made in the last few years as a bonus, or say, improve conditions that the workers in China have to work in on a daily basis, ect.

This is terrible, just in that juxtapose those white apple stores in suburban US where rich snobs are complaining about their phone is outdated and they need a new one, to the workers in China not seeing a dime from the people buying $500 phones on a yearly basis... :|

Sick.

What kind of phone, tv, video game console, and computer do you have?

 

[twofold]

Apple/iPhone in the article title gets page views. Other companies, not so much.

Yup, I know. And that's why things aren't going to change any time soon.

 

[jerry1594]

Apple/iPhone in the article title gets page views. Other companies, not so much.

Nobody bothers to post threads about other companies

 

[lush]

ITT: Feigned outrage

 

[MThanded]

Nobody bothers to post threads about other companies

Apple, the company people love to hate( hate to love) apparently.

 

[bionic77]

What kind of phone, tv, video game console, and computer do you have?

I only buy zenith. My conscience is clear.

 

[MThanded]

I only buy zenith. My conscience is clear.

I heard that new zPHone is hot.

 

[WickedCobra03]

What kind of phone, tv, video game console, and computer do you have?

No, I know. I own stuff from these companies, there is just about no way to get around it today, but I feel that these companies should have a little more responsibility. I know that they are no longer national companies caring about its employees in that country, but now they are just global juggernauts which are not tied really to any country at all.

EDIT: There is one thing in making profits, and there is another thing with exploitation that I feel is only going to get worse instead of being a limited term thing until companies are able to find a better more human way. I am just saying charge a little less for the products, pay your employees a little better, do a better job at environmentally friendlier electronic production (and I am not just taking about putting your products in a cardboard box instead of plastic or say you are not including manuals for environmental reasons *cough* its to cut costs */cough* ).

 

[jerry1594]

Apple, the company people love to hate( hate to love) apparently.

Yeah. But did you see how nice those Vizio ultrabooks looked?

 

[F#A#Oo]

Nah man, they all suck. Here's a recent china labor watch report on Samsung: http://www.chinalaborwatch.org/pdf/Samsung Report 0904-v3.pdf

This is known and is an accepted reality of how our goods are produced unfortunately.

The difference though is that Apples production demands are so high that Foxconn has had to go from one extreme to another in order to meet production targets and its kids who are in school who are now being taken out of school who suffer.

The counter arguement that others are doing a) b) and c) too doesn't make this any better and doesn't serve to protect Apple from criticism.

 

[MThanded]

No, I know. I own stuff from these companies, there is just about no way to get around it today, but I feel that these companies should have a little more responsibility. I know that they are no longer national companies caring about its employees in that country, but now they are just global juggernauts which are not tied really to any country at all.

Your initial post had some scathing comments though

Basically this. If Apple is going to do this, give some of those billions of dollars you just made in the last few years as a bonus, or say, improve conditions that the workers in China have to work in on a daily basis, ect.

This is terrible, just in that juxtapose those white apple stores in suburban US where rich snobs are complaining about their phone is outdated and they need a new one, to the workers in China not seeing a dime from the people buying $500 phones on a yearly basis... :|

Sick.

I am going to out on a limb and say that most people who own an iPhone are not rich... I'm just calling it like it is. You can buy an iPhone from wal-mart these days.

 

[numble]

I reckon they already knew about this sort of stuff happening. I reckon every company knows about it. That's why the media needs to make it a case to point out how fucked up the business practises are of every company instead of only focusing on Apple - it's the only way things will change.

Well, the Huai'an factory is new, at least for iPhone jobs. It never was an issue for the Shenzhen factory, or the new Zhengzhou one, for that matter. You can look through SACOM (anti-corporate, anti-Apple bias) or FLA's (pro-corporate, pro-Apple) reports on these factories and they don't cite student intern issues.

Interns are a problem at other Foxconn factories, and a problem in China manufacturing in general:
http://www.clb.org.hk/en/files/share/File/general/vocational_school_system.pdf

The key issue in forced internships appears to be the entrenched relationship between schools and businesses, a relationship actively encouraged by the Chinese government. CLB talked directly to 22 schools and ascertained that nearly half of them had a well-established partnership with local businesses or factories in other provinces. In these cases it was not unusual for schools to deduct a “commission” from the interns’ salary or get paid directly by factories for providing cheap labour.

...

This pressure has been one of the key reasons why incidences of forced internships have increased. And it seems that many local governments have been complicit in urging vocational schools to provide local businesses with a steady stream of interns to make up for the shortfall in their intake of regular employees. The official China Daily newspaper reported in 2010 that the provincial government of Henan played a key role in sourcing up to 100,000 interns for Foxconn, and that some 119 vocational schools in Chongqing had also pledged a steady supply of interns to the company. SACOM estimated that up to one third of the workforce at some Foxconn facilities were interns, a claim countered by the company, which said the proportion of interns had never exceeded 15 percent.

There's also an intern issue in the US revolving around unpaid internships:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/03/business/03intern.html?pagewanted=all

Convinced that many unpaid internships violate minimum wage laws, officials in Oregon, California and other states have begun investigations and fined employers. Last year, M. Patricia Smith, then New York’s labor commissioner, ordered investigations into several firms’ internships. Now, as the federal Labor Department’s top law enforcement official, she and the wage and hour division are stepping up enforcement nationwide.

Many regulators say that violations are widespread, but that it is unusually hard to mount a major enforcement effort because interns are often afraid to file complaints. Many fear they will become known as troublemakers in their chosen field, endangering their chances with a potential future employer.

The Labor Department says it is cracking down on firms that fail to pay interns properly and expanding efforts to educate companies, colleges and students on the law regarding internships.

“If you’re a for-profit employer or you want to pursue an internship with a for-profit employer, there aren’t going to be many circumstances where you can have an internship and not be paid and still be in compliance with the law,” said Nancy J. Leppink, the acting director of the department’s wage and hour division.

Ms. Leppink said many employers failed to pay even though their internships did not comply with the six federal legal criteria that must be satisfied for internships to be unpaid. Among those criteria are that the internship should be similar to the training given in a vocational school or academic institution, that the intern does not displace regular paid workers and that the employer “derives no immediate advantage” from the intern’s activities — in other words, it’s largely a benevolent contribution to the intern.

No one keeps official count of how many paid and unpaid internships there are, but Lance Choy, director of the Career Development Center at Stanford University, sees definitive evidence that the number of unpaid internships is mushrooming — fueled by employers’ desire to hold down costs and students’ eagerness to gain experience for their résumés. Employers posted 643 unpaid internships on Stanford’s job board this academic year, more than triple the 174 posted two years ago.

In 2008, the National Association of Colleges and Employers found that 50 percent of graduating students had held internships, up from the 17 percent shown in a 1992 study by Northwestern University. This means hundreds of thousands of students hold internships each year; some experts estimate that one-fourth to one-half are unpaid.

In California, officials have issued guidance letters advising employers whether they are breaking the law, while Oregon regulators have unearthed numerous abuses.

“We’ve had cases where unpaid interns really were displacing workers and where they weren’t being supervised in an educational capacity,” said Bob Estabrook, spokesman for Oregon’s labor department. His department recently handled complaints involving two individuals at a solar panel company who received $3,350 in back pay after claiming that they were wrongly treated as unpaid interns.

Many students said they had held internships that involved noneducational menial work. To be sure, many internships involve some unskilled work, but when the jobs are mostly drudgery, regulators say, it is clearly illegal not to pay interns.

One Ivy League student said she spent an unpaid three-month internship at a magazine packaging and shipping 20 or 40 apparel samples a day back to fashion houses that had provided them for photo shoots.

At Little Airplane, a Manhattan children’s film company, an N.Y.U. student who hoped to work in animation during her unpaid internship said she was instead assigned to the facilities department and ordered to wipe the door handles each day to minimize the spread of swine flu.

 

[pxleyes]

Your initial post had some scathing comments though


I am going to out on a limb and say that most people who own an iPhone are not rich... I'm just calling it like it is. You can by an iPhone from wal-mart these days.

My two local Apple stores have demographics that are closer to my neighborhood Walmart than Whole Foods.

 

[FairyD]

Something to think about when people unbox their magical new iphones.

Don't forget about the kids who had to mine for the precious metals and minerals.

 

[Vilix]

Basically this. If Apple is going to do this, give some of those billions of dollars you just made in the last few years as a bonus, or say, improve conditions that the workers in China have to work in on a daily basis, ect.

This is terrible, just in that juxtapose those white apple stores in suburban US where rich snobs are complaining about their phone is outdated and they need a new one, to the workers in China not seeing a dime from the people buying $500 phones on a yearly basis... :|

Sick.

You realize that more iPhones are bought at Walmart from people who can barely afford them?

 

[DietRob]

You realize that more iPhones are bought at Walmart from people who can barely afford them?

 

[Technosteve]

Android phones are obviously built by under age kids, iphones are being passed off by competent manufacturing employees for massive profits.

The Android Propaganda Machine are hiding these facts from the public, they are using the Liberal Media to slander it's competitors and stop innovation.

 

[bionic77]

The Android Propaganda Machine are hiding these facts from the public, they are using the Liberal Media to slander it's competitors and stop innovation.

No one gives a fuck about those workers. This is just a way for people to feel good about their non-Apple smartphone until they realize their phones are built by the same people.

The way we get certain minerals and metals for our electronics is just as bad or worse.

I do think that some people would pay more for their electronics to make sure it was made by well paid workers, but I suspect it is a very small number.