Implicating one company means nothing will ever improve either. A lot of people think Foxconn is some subsidiary of Apple. It doesn't surprise me because the media rarely discusses how many companies Foxconn does work for. There are people who came in this thread just to say "FUCK APPLE". Clearly people are misinformed and blaming Apple really just perpetuates this misinformation. This is much bigger than Apple. Blaming Apple is an easy way to go though. The media wants pages hits. No one wants to write an article about Acer. Fair enough.
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Students say they are forced to work on new iPhone 5
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The thing is that Foxconn might not even know about the schools' coercive tactics. If a school is bussing all its students in and telling them they won't graduate unless they work there, Foxconn can't do anything even if it tells them they are free to leave, as it is under the law and they are required to do under the Apple/FLA internship plan. This is actually very common if you read the link I posted earlier (http://www.clb.org.hk/en/files/share/File/general/vocational_school_system.pdf).
Remember it was the higher level government that ordered the schools to start classes and allow students to quit if they wanted to. It wasn't ordering Foxconn or Apple to allow them to quit.
Well, Apple's the one getting attacked and people feel the need to defend them. Defending a company that uses slave labor just seems wrong to me. Obviously they won't ever chance if their costumers hold the same level of pride even after hearing about stuff like this.
Souless_PJ
Banned
Oh gee what a surprise. Chuck Apple in the thread title and it's 5 pages of "outrage" already.
When Samsung got busted it barely cracked 2
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=485709
When Samsung got busted it barely cracked 2
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=485709
Jason's Ultimatum
Member
I wish we could live in a world where corporate slavery didn't exist.
You are defending this type of labor practice every time you buy any product made by anyone on that list described earlier. However, I knows its much easier to target Apple. All of this is shameful really. The demand for these products is totally ridiculous. However, if you want to have substantive discussion about Chinese labor laws and Foxconn its probably best to stop targeting a single company. Do you own any products from any of those companies? You are directly supporting these labor practices if you do. Thats the issue here.
Also if by me saying that we should be talking about the larger issue here makes me a rampant fanboy then we can't have any substantive discussion at all.
Thanks for pointing this out.
Yeah, doesn't make sense. The world's most profitable company that probably has more influence on its manufacturer than every other client combined gets singled out!
STOP IT YOU APPLE HATERS
I buy what's available to me. Boycotting slave labor would be the quickest way to my wallet. People are literally using their own words to defend a company using slave labor. Why would any company that is very successful and has an army of defenders feel the need to change what they're doing?
Samsung owns and manages 6 factories in China outright. I think it has more influence on its manufacturer (itself), since the manufacturing and assembly is done in-house.
So you don't buy anything from any company on that list? This is a simple yes or no question. One you probably won't answer.
Show me the quote where I defended slave labor. You are really lying about my position here. Plain and simple.
Apple is part of the problem like every other company who uses this type of labor.
Nobody is "defending" Apple.
This is a problem endemic to the entire tech industry and putting the blame solely on Apple isn't going to help things out at all. As we've seen already, Apple has taken a number of steps to try and fix this issue as a result of the criticism put on them but none of the other tech companies have followed suit.
Things aren't going to change in any meaningful way until Nintendo, Microsoft, Sony, Acer, Intel, etc. are put under the same scrutiny that Apple is under. They won't try to change things unless they receive bad press or consumers stop buying their products.
Except they have made changes. Had you properly read Numble's/MThanded's posts you would know this.
I thought this whole thread was about Foxconn?
So you're more concerned with people attacking Apple than the fact that they're using slave labor?
Basically everything you've said has defended Apple aka "a company using slave labor" except for the last sentence there.
Your quote is to a thread about abuses at Samsung factories in China.
Honestly, I think Samsung holds more sway on Chinese worker jobs. They produce maybe 4x as much phones and devices as Apple, including dumbphones, Bada phones, cheap/expensive smartphones. 6 factories is more factories than Apple employs with Foxconn. Apple shares factories with other companies at Foxconn.
And they own and operate the factories themselves. So there's no third party in the way of change.
I'm more concerned with the media focusing on the actual systemic issue here. Until people know the truth about ALL of these companies not much is going to change. Implicating one company Apple, Acer, Nintendo isn't going to work.
I answered your question. Do me a solid one and answer mine.
Edit: Nevermind if I want something done right I'll do it myself.
Seems like I have another problem with my laptop.
My laptop is an acer aspire 4820t running windows 7. I reformatted recently and now I've been running into constant problems. It's currently stuck in a reboot loop with a bsod saying "system service exception". I can't even get into safe mode since it has the same problem. These errors never appeared before the first reformat so I figure it has to either be a hardware failure or the system restore partition was different than how it was out of box. I tried the startup repair for windows 7 but they say there's no problems lol. Any suggestions?
We are all part of the problem. Everyone in this new age of technology. You can pull the holier than thou card if you want.
Yes, I have purchased from a few of those companies. Some of those products were likely made under the same horrible situations as stuff made by Apple. I never defend them and make it clear that I'll buy any similar product from a competitor that will pay for better working conditions. If a product exists in a country that protects those workers then I'll gladly buy from them. Cars, clothes, etc.
Doesn't make it right but that laptop was refurbished. Any company you can suggest for my next purchase?
I don't call you an Apple hater for wanting to implicate Apple. If you want to have a real discussion it's important not to cannibalize it by pulling some "defending apple lol" card out.
Wind's Howling
Member
That is where you are wrong. Apple creates the design but they leave the manufacturing of their products to a whole different company. While that company is still bound by a contract, they can do whatever they want in order to meet demands. That is not something Apple has control of.
I'm sure there are tons of giant companies that own/produce more things in China than Samsung does.
We're talking about the most profitable company on the planet here. A company that repeatedly proclaims how green its products are, how many environment/supplier initiatives they are involved in, and how much their products "advance" mankind. You don't think the most high profile company involved in an issue like this should be singled out?
Profit != throughput. I dont think we should be singling anyone out. All the companies are at fault. However, if you want a metric on who the biggest offender is, it makes more sense to be the one that has the largest amount of phones produced through these factories. If I can produce 1 phone through Foxconn that one person is willing to pay 1 trillion dollars for I become the most profitable company to use them. Doesn't mean anything really. However, if I need a trillion phones and I only make 1 cent on each I am really abusing the system. I am making much less profit but I am abusing the labor force much more.
I disagree. If you're the most profitable company on the planet, you have the influence and resources to do something. So what if you take a $10 million hit or whatever out of your $7 billion profit? More so when you create the image of yourself that Apple does.
Yeah but those are two extreme cases. It's not like the range between the volume of Apple and Acer are a trillion products apart. And honestly, if a company makes a cent off each product, I don't see how they would even have the resources to demand better conditions (I am assuming that this WILL cost them more money).
You say that Apple has more influence on its manufacturer than others, I don't think so. Samsung owns and operates its own factories in China, it employs the workers as Samsung employees.
I think Apple has done more on China labor issues than Samsung has ever done, which reflects horribly for Samsung, who has more power than Apple with its workers.
But Samsung treats its manufacturing workers in Korea horribly too, so I guess it's not that big of a surprise.
More profit doesn't mean more influence. If I am driving more devices made per day through Foxconn I bet you I have more influence. At the end of the day Foxconn wants to get paid. They are most likely getting paid a lot more through a company that gets more devices made. End profit they don't even get to see because they are all on the build side.
I could be wrong but this is my logic when trying to figure this out. The people with the most influence over Foxconn are the people with the bigger contracts. Apple makes more profit but they aren't pushing nearly as many devices out.
Wind's Howling
Member
Someone seems to be forgetting that we are talking about China here. A country that is well known for its terrible employment policies, but also known for its fast labor. Western society demands high quality phones for the lowest price in a small release schedule. Unfortunately, the only way to reach that is by reaching towards countries like China. Apple is not the only company doing this. This goes for all kinds of companies. From fabric to technology.
Pretty sure you can sacrifice product quality if you want a lower cost. And I would almost be certain that Apple is paying a premium to ensure build quality remains high on its products.
Been stated many times in this thread. We are talking about whether it is right to single out Apple over others due to its profits, influence, and corporate image.
I'd say most factories in China are worse than Foxconn. Look at Samsung's own factories for instance. Last time I checked they paid half as much and they still have more overtime than Foxconn.
I don't see how leaving China helps Chinese workers. Staying in China and improving things gradually have helped Foxconn workers far more than leaving would have ever done.
CharminUltra
Member
We're talking about Apple haters here.
The ones that "hate" closed systems like Apple's but probably own more than one game console or go crazy during Steam sales.
The ones that give other huge companies -also making obscene amounts of money off chinese laborers- a free pass as long as said obscene amounts of money are smaller than Apple's.
The ones that had never heard or cared about patents until Apple got involved.
There's nothing to be surprised about.
What choice would they have if a direct competitor showed up in a different country and started stealing their business because of better working conditions? Like if Apple completely left and started putting pressure on other tech giants to do the same.
I'm a fan of Apple's products. Not necessarily the company itself since it's done some pretty fucked up stuff. But Foxconn is to blame for this. If they know they couldn't handle demand for the iPhone 5, they should have consulted Apple instead of forcing students to do it. China.
Wind's Howling
Member
I hardly have the feeling that Apple is getting singled out in comparison with other companies. In fact, I feel like Apple is always getting the first blows the last couple of years because they grew out to be the #1 company in the world.
Poor labor policies have always been an issue in China but you rarely heard about it in the past few years until Apple started to become bigger and bigger. It is always easier to let your voice be heard when you attack Apple over something they can not control. They just know that everything related to Apple is going to be read despite the relevance.
Huh? I don't think you understood what I wrote.
The company that leaves first will most likely see an initial drop in income or pass that off to the consumer I presume.
Most people have no idea how their devices are made.
Wind's Howling
Member
I was meant to remove your quote and just post it as a reply. Typing on my iPhone remains cumbersome.
How would they put pressure on tech giants to do the same? Did other tech giants join the FLA and open its manufacturing lines to its auditors after Apple joined?
Foxconn is the one opening up in other countries with better conditions than local factories. They have factories in Brazil, Europe, India, Japan, Malaysia, and Mexico.
Again, how does leaving China improve Chinese worker conditions? They have improved conditions for their workers because they've stayed. Are you concerned about the workers or just want to clear your conscience?
No doubt the company and it's buyers will lose some money but I see no better company than Apple to do this. They have the most loyal customers that are already willing to pay more for their product.
Up to marketing to let people know.
"Thinking about buying from the other guys? *cue video of typical factory working conditions* Our product is more friendly to the users and the makers."
They don't necessarily have to leave. Why wouldn't they change conditions if that's the reason money is starting to go elsewhere?
@bold: no need to make it personal
NinjaMouse
Member
It's always strange to read these threads...it's like people forget that China is a Communist country.
Do the working conditions suck? Absolutely. Is it borderline inhumane? Absolutely. Foxconn is still probably the best place to work there, though. This is probably considered tame compared to other manufacturing facilities there.
Do the working conditions suck? Absolutely. Is it borderline inhumane? Absolutely. Foxconn is still probably the best place to work there, though. This is probably considered tame compared to other manufacturing facilities there.
Razr, here I come.
To continue with my idea, I'm just saying that Samsung can affect more workers than Apple can. A lot of Foxconn workers are dedicated to Apple product manufacturing, and they get paid nearly twice the salary of Samsung workers. But Samsung employs way more workers, since it produces way more products, and employs them directly. It can implement changes and monitor them in a snap, compared to the lengthy auditing process at Foxconn.
If you are concerned about worker welfare, companies leaving would very likely make things worse. The companies that would stay would be ones like the domestic brands that don't care at all, and there would be lower employment leading people back to backbreaking sustenance farming or other far worse jobs.
They are changing things. What is your opinion on the FLA reports and progress reports?
I just think it's so sad that people feel the need to jump into threads like these and mitigate Apple's role in this with the 'bu-but Samsung does it too' tripe.
Why were you absent from the aforementioned Samsung thread? If equitable attribution of responsibility is your M.O. then surely your voice was needed there too?
No, wait a minute, your voice wasn't needed there and nor is it needed here. Apple retains an army of lawyers and PR reps to manage these stories and I struggle to understand why anyone else would go out of their way to worry about whether they're receiving the precise percentage of blame you feel that they deserve.
The most important issue here is the exploitation of underage workers at the Foxconn plant. Like it or lump it, Apple has become the public face of this scandal. Ultimately, it's to the benefit of these children if a company with the profile and resources that Apple has receives the brunt of the public's ire as they're in the best position to effect change.
Other than that, why do you care about the 'Apple sucks' brigade more than the actual issue at hand? What's your skin in the game?
Why were you absent from the aforementioned Samsung thread? If equitable attribution of responsibility is your M.O. then surely your voice was needed there too?
No, wait a minute, your voice wasn't needed there and nor is it needed here. Apple retains an army of lawyers and PR reps to manage these stories and I struggle to understand why anyone else would go out of their way to worry about whether they're receiving the precise percentage of blame you feel that they deserve.
The most important issue here is the exploitation of underage workers at the Foxconn plant. Like it or lump it, Apple has become the public face of this scandal. Ultimately, it's to the benefit of these children if a company with the profile and resources that Apple has receives the brunt of the public's ire as they're in the best position to effect change.
Other than that, why do you care about the 'Apple sucks' brigade more than the actual issue at hand? What's your skin in the game?
If the threat of leaving wouldn't change how they operate then there's not much that can be done. Having people work absurd hours for twice as much of nothing doesn't seem like it's all that great. Changing it shouldn't be a slow process. The companies have the money... set standards to what we'd consider humane here and find someone that will implement it.
My opinion beyond my willingness to pay more for products made through humane working conditions doesn't matter. I'm in no position to do more than that so that's as far as I read into it.
You clearly didn't read most of these posts. Singling out any single company is not going to change anything. Whether it be Samsung or Apple or Acer. The whole point here is that the issue is much bigger. Your bias is showing though . No worries.
Edit: actually I see i posted in that thread and said the same damn thing I said in here LOL. When someone said they did not buy samsung or Apple. I asked what other companies they purchased from. So ive been consistent. Doesn't matter who the article is about.
Beerman462
Member
Pretty much. I wonder if the same thing happened when the first iPhone came out and Jobs decided it needed a glass screen at the last minute.
encephalon
Member
If the Chinese government ensured decent pay and working conditions for its people, would China be the world's manufacturer?
You keep spinning this line but history has shown time and time again that it quite simply isn't true.
The important issue here is exploitation of child workers but all you're interested in is the proportion of blame that's assigned to Apple and how they're being unjustly demonized.
Just stop.
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