Does that also mean religious people are less likely to give up on life?
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Suicide is Selfish
- Thread starter Devolution
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SteveWinwood
Member
http://www.gallup.com/poll/108625/more-religious-countries-lower-suicide-rates.aspx
Looks like there is some correlation. But less religious countries are also wealthier, so there is also a correlation there. Also more religious countries had higher murder rates.
Guess what? People who have depression don't really think about themselves like the way you're saying they are. The general thing that's usually on their minds is "what's the point?" and "everything's terrible." It gets complicated after that. And no, people with depression and anxiety issues who commit suicide do NOT think that offing themselves will make them better. They just can't go on anymore. They feel like like they're dying
Alcotholic
Banned
I often think I would do it, if I knew I could live on as a spirit watching over the ones I love. But I know that wouldnt happen, so I just continue to live life and experience the most I can.
Likely there is a correlation between a tight-knit community and lower suicide rates, just based upon the logical behavior of humans in groups.
SteveWinwood
Member
I still really wanna hear about this exciting new cure Viking found out.
Thank you, I've always hated that mentality so much, also the ones who say it's cowardly, no, it is not, I'd argue is a courageous thing to do because we know how living is like, is the safest option to just keep living, but death, we really don't know what comes after it, it is uncertain and scary.
Winterfang
Banned
Appropriate that this really good, long as fuck comic came out last week:
http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2013/05/depression-part-two.html
That's terrible, what a sad story.
PaperFlame
Member
It depends really..
If you're terminally ill then you should have the right to die.
If you have depression, I don't believe you have the right to die because depression is curable. You just need medication and therapy. The only problem it costs a lot of money to get those, and when you're depressed you don't have the ability to even go to a therapy.
Suicide isn't a coward thing, and neither if you change your mind into backing out.
Shit happens and you just to learn to cope and deal with it.
If you're terminally ill then you should have the right to die.
If you have depression, I don't believe you have the right to die because depression is curable. You just need medication and therapy. The only problem it costs a lot of money to get those, and when you're depressed you don't have the ability to even go to a therapy.
Suicide isn't a coward thing, and neither if you change your mind into backing out.
Shit happens and you just to learn to cope and deal with it.
AdventureRacing
Member
Your ignorance on this subject is astounding. You really have no understanding of how bad things can be for people with depression.
Your first problem is assuming that people who are suffering from depression or other mental illnesses are always thinking rationally like that. Your second problem is assuming that talking to friends/family/shrinks/support groups is a sure fire way to fix or even help the issue (hint it isn't).
Actually i'm not even sure why i'm responding to someone who refers to depression as 'a state of mind that can be reversed'. Perhaps you should read up on the condition a little more before throwing around such arguments.
Edit: Just noticed the bullshit about it being the easy way out. How can anyone honestly believe that line? It is against our very fibre as a human to end our own life. I don't think there is a more difficult and horrifying decision anyone could ever make. Calling taking your own life 'the easy way out' doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
It was almost refreshing to see that pop up given the poster had been mostly absent for a year and a half after this post.
GillianSeed79
Member
What is one's definition of agony and despair though? If you have a horribly crippling disease both physically and mentally, by all means you should have the right to off yourself. When it's a case of depression where people are there to support you, love you and try to help you it's a different story. I'm not saying that a person doesn't have the right to take their own life, but if it's done during a manic phase without thought, it can kind of seem selfish. I mean, if you want to get into the practical, cold costs - burial or even cremation is fucking expensive. Like new car expensive. Sure I've thought of suicide, but I wouldn't even entertain the idea until my parents are dead and even then I'd ask to be buried in a paupers grave or be thrown into the sewer or the ocean.
I only say that it's somewhat selfish in that it has a lasting impact on those who survive. I had an uncle that killed himself with pills and it completely fucked his siblings. For me, personally, the first woman I truly loved ended up hanging herself in a storage shed after we broke up. She tried to kill herself multiple times when we were together. I tried to save her. She was manic most of the time. I had held her hand in the ER when they were stitching her wrist up after I found her one day on my bed covered in blood. (Blood isn't like Kool Aid btw. It smells of iron and it clumps up in little pieces when you try to clean it up) I guess I was kind of selfish. I wanted to keep her living and thought I could be the white knight and save her. At some point it was just too much for me. She was violent, depressed and even one time told me that she wanted to die because of me while she banged her open wrist - blood shooting out btw - against a doorway. I can't say I was suprised when I found out she hung herself about a year or two after we broke up, but I think of her family. I think of the fact that I'm scared shitless of every getting into another relationship again after that. I think about if I could have saved her if I tried to stay with her despite the abuse. Then again I guess that's a selfish way to look at it.
She got her way out and I hope she's at peace now, but I don't think I'll ever be the same. I'd gladly take a jump off the nearest bridge if it would mean she could live again. Just my two cents.
encephalon
Member
This attitude is in of itself selfish. The act? Not necessarily.
Devolution
Member
Freezie KO
Banned
Expecting someone to carry on an unhappy existence every waking moment of their life for your sake is selfish. Suicide is not selfish. But it's nothing I would recommend before seeing someone about the thoughts.
You THINK that because you're so fucking used to feeling useless. Start getting angry, but keep that shit in check.
Note: Don't go blaming me if you actually hurt yourself lose your job get banned here or end up on the frontpage of a newspaper somehow. That's plain idiocy so don't go overboard. Do it all safely and in privacy.
If you haven't aleady, get used to feeling alone. Start learning to criticize back ***at people who **regularly** criticize you***. Open your mouth.
Hit pillows, kick scream in your car with the windows up while driving cry piss the bed wail moan bitch and nip away at your problems all at the same time. Get that nasty shit out of your system. Consider that you might feel dead inside because you have all kinds of shit baggage in there that needs to come out so you can be healthy inside again.
Make sure to cool off and treat yourself.
It doesn't make much sense to me either but after years and years of shit and wanting to die and finding joy in nothing, this is the only thing that worked.
Most importantly, do what works for you. Maybe you already did the angry thing and you need to wallow for awhile. Time gives you the mental clarity to examine all that.
N
NinjaFridge
Unconfirmed Member
The attitude is born out of a desire to no longer be a burden on the people you care about. It isn't a case of 'well I'm doing what I want because fuck those other people, it's all about me.'.
It's more like 'they would be much better off without me, I'm nothing but a burden and if i'm gone they can live a better life'.
So no it isn't selfish. Selfishness is being concerned about yourself, what you want and ignoring everybody else. Suicide is killing yourself because you feel like your death means people can move on and live better lives.
Suicide IS selfish. It is a regard for what and how YOU are feeling and YOUR assessment of a given situation placed above and beyond what anyone else says or feels. It does nothing but harm yourself and those who cared for you in order to relieve some pain (emotional or otherwise) that you are feeling.
Does that mean that stating that suicide is selfish to someone contemplating suicide is right? No. Is demanding someone continue suffering any less selfish? Not necessarily. But answering the question "how is it selfish?" That's how.
RobotNinjaHornets
Banned
If it's selfish to commit suicide, it's just as selfish to think that someone should keep living with a ridiculous amount of pain because you want them to.
As someone who is going through a very severe depression, suicide is not cowardly. If I had the courage I would have already done it. A part of me is scared of the pain and a lifetime of disability if it doesn't pan out.
Coming from a first generation Asian family, it's hard to get help from family members. Parents and siblings are so emotionally distant that they almost feel like strangers. I tried going to anyone I can, even people on the internet, but in the end I'd just be some random person. So ultimately I'd just be a statistic and world would move on. Telling someone they are selfish for not wanting to be in pain anymore is a pretty shitty thing to tell a severely depressed person.
Coming from a first generation Asian family, it's hard to get help from family members. Parents and siblings are so emotionally distant that they almost feel like strangers. I tried going to anyone I can, even people on the internet, but in the end I'd just be some random person. So ultimately I'd just be a statistic and world would move on. Telling someone they are selfish for not wanting to be in pain anymore is a pretty shitty thing to tell a severely depressed person.
I was there for 5 or 6 years depending on how you want to look at it so you can trust me or not. Those exact words came out of my mouth. When you're feeling as low as you do, it doesn't feel selfish because you are so depressed.
I want you to consider something else. That sadness and anger have a real purpose. Its your body's way of telling you something is off and you either need to accept it, or change the situation. If you stay there too long, its bad news. It becomes you.
So if and when you find what YOU need to do for YOU (and no one else), YOU will feel very differently. YOU can change it but you have to go through the motions. I had to grieve my whole life so I could feel better. What *I* never did was get angry, hence why that worked for ME. I told everybody I wanted out and THEY were selfish. Now after going through the motions *I don't want to die, I waant to peck away at the problems until I have the life I want.
Really consider for a moment what it would take for you to NOT want to die. What YOU would want, healthy good stuff mind you, that YOU want out of life. When you really start looking at it that way, your brain goes into auto mode and finds solutions.
As long as its not wildly unrealistic, like making $100k a year flipping burgers, don't be afraid to dream up something higher than you think you're capable of. Just go through the motions and use logic.
The saddest part of this discussion is how people who are reporting and telling their story of their own depression are accused of not knowing what's up. Like there is some kind of definite truth. :-[
I have my own problems, and taking a knife and cutting some arteries with a sharp one would lead to no complications. All my troubles would be over, it would be cowardly and that's a fact. So please get off your high horses and at least admit that it can be very cowardly. There is the fear of doing it wrong and waking up in a hospital, but isn't that just the fear to have to stand up to those people whom you tried to rob of your own presence? The fear to have a second chance after a failed attempt?
I have my own problems, and taking a knife and cutting some arteries with a sharp one would lead to no complications. All my troubles would be over, it would be cowardly and that's a fact. So please get off your high horses and at least admit that it can be very cowardly. There is the fear of doing it wrong and waking up in a hospital, but isn't that just the fear to have to stand up to those people whom you tried to rob of your own presence? The fear to have a second chance after a failed attempt?
Yes you did. And you just said it again: you're expected to live a life you don't want, suffering through each and every day, but it isn't OK to cause pain to your loved ones, not even to get away from it yourself.
And I know it for certain now: you have absolutely no idea about depression.
As is the other way round. And if I had to choose between two horrible things, I'd choose the one that benefits the most, or at least the one that will hurt me the least.
And other people don't live in a bubble where their decision for you to live doesn't have a direct effect on you either. Everything is selfish, if we go to the root of the word, as has been discussed a couple of pages back. That doesn't mean it's inherently wrong, or bad, or mistaken. I'm not saying suicide is none of those things, but to qualify people who commit it as selfish (in a derogatory way) is nothing unlike victim blaming, I believe.
Zaraki_Kenpachi
Member
How is it selfish if it's a problem they can't control? Why are other illnesses not selfish then? I'm sure you won't respond to this post though.
What does the act of suicide being selfish(or not) have to do with having control over the illness(psycho- or physiological)?
Zaraki_Kenpachi
Member
Because it can't be selfish if you don't have control over it. Why aren't smokers berated as selfish when they die of lung cancer? They actually made a choice, whereas someone who commits suicide usually doesn't make that choice. They aren't thinking rationally and many times can be due to problems with their mental health. It's disgusting that other illnesses that you have more control over are seen as fine but suicide is labeled as selfish by ignorant people.
Krauser Kat
Member
Its still very debatable wether someone has the choice or not when they are mentally ill.
Some people see it as living is torture. Escaping the torture can put other people into torture. Suicide has sooo many external effects. A suicide can put an entire family into pain for years, even longer than the pain the person was suffering from that made them do it. How terrible is that. Even if its not a "choice" or made rationally the effects might as well be considered assault charges on all your loved ones. It may not be a selfish choice but you are a pretty shitty person to try to end your pain at the expense of others.
Some people see it as living is torture. Escaping the torture can put other people into torture. Suicide has sooo many external effects. A suicide can put an entire family into pain for years, even longer than the pain the person was suffering from that made them do it. How terrible is that. Even if its not a "choice" or made rationally the effects might as well be considered assault charges on all your loved ones. It may not be a selfish choice but you are a pretty shitty person to try to end your pain at the expense of others.
As a smoker I can tell you firsthand this is patently false. I get shit constantly. Funny part is I got almost no shit for being a raging alcoholic, even when I was at the point of wetting the bed and paranoid. Disgusting isn't it? Its embarassing to even admit that, but I don't shame myself because I was in unimaginable pain but nobody stopped to say it was abnormal. Funny how society works. Alcohol is ten times worse when combined with severe depression and used as escapism yet few batted an eye at me. I'll take smoking over booze anyday. Yet now I'm starting to think about quitting that too.
If you want to stop being depressed you have to look at things like a see saw. When pain is greater than your ability to cope, suicide becomes rational. When your ability to cope combined with positive aspects start to outweigh the pain, suicide is no longer rational.
I used to think I couldn't control my life, but then it hit me that I actually had total control of my life, I just had to make the right decisions. If you think about depression as a cage you'll never get out of, you stay there. When you think problem -> solution, the game changes.
so, like not depression. Depression is infinitely curable, through multiple treatments from meds to individual therapy to group therapy. There are coping skills that can be learned.
Mental health is just as important as physical health and mental health can affect your physical health.
I'll turn your argument around: your family is full of shitty people to try and force you to stay alive for their own sake. That's assault on you from their part.
You can have been suffering for decades, and being forced to avoid escaping the torture can make the torture even more unbearable. How terrible is that?
The ignorant are those that commit suicide.
Not the active ignorance of a Michelle Bachmann, but the passive ignorance of someone that gets stuck in a corner and never comes out. They are so enveloped in their own narcissism, they are unable to even place themselves in other people's shoes or appreciate the gift(s) they have. They are unable to discern that their problems are not unique and millions, if not billions before them have overcome them. They do not have the tools to cope with pain, both physical and mental. All of which are exacerbated by their own minds.
That's not to say all suicides are created equal. Those with profound mental/health/age problems are on a different level. I'm speaking on those that succumb to suicide due to the more common existential angst of living.
Not the active ignorance of a Michelle Bachmann, but the passive ignorance of someone that gets stuck in a corner and never comes out. They are so enveloped in their own narcissism, they are unable to even place themselves in other people's shoes or appreciate the gift(s) they have. They are unable to discern that their problems are not unique and millions, if not billions before them have overcome them. They do not have the tools to cope with pain, both physical and mental. All of which are exacerbated by their own minds.
That's not to say all suicides are created equal. Those with profound mental/health/age problems are on a different level. I'm speaking on those that succumb to suicide due to the more common existential angst of living.
How about they do it for your own sake, so you won't throw you one single chance on earth away with one single action. So you may overcome your problems and experience happy times with your beloved ones[or strangers or new friends]. That does apply to non-terminal illnesses.
And why do you feel the need to insult them as "shitty", that's highly inappropriate considering every issue/case has to/can be judged differently. What a sad world this is, if people loving their kids/parents/relatives/friends are shitty for wanting those people to live on.
Zaraki_Kenpachi
Member
I don't think it's that common and definitely not after death. A family member died at 48 with 2 kids and a wife and no one described his death as "selfish", no one even hinted at it. I'm not saying they aren't given shit by certain people but it's nowhere as bad as other people have it. And you're ignorant as all hell if you think it's all in their head. When you have a chemical imbalance or other problems, it's not just that you don't think positive enough. You seem to have no grasp on mental illness yet still speak with authority. What you said is a complete lie.
Your imaginary teenage son is suffering under depression, so it's okay for him to kill himself just like that? Sick, that's a sick thought and even sicker one if people are really so okay with people killing themself[in every single case of "I want to die"].
Chaplain
Member
My father killed himself. So, it was his decision to kill himself, but it was our business (my family and his family) because they loved him and would have done anything to get him help. His decision to end his life affected their lives when he died (like having to clean his blood up off of the floor, horrible depression and pain followed for many family members, etc.) and still effects them to this very day (like my mom not marry because of the scares caused by my dad).
How selfish of you.
Seriously, how can people actually come back again and again with that not selfish crap, when you and others are definite proof of the contrary?
Depends on the specific situation IMO. Got young kids or other dependents? Yea, it's selfish. I don't care what the "thought process" is, you are going to mess their lives up forever. When you decide to have kids, you decide to be selfless and raise them well into their teenage years, end of story. But maybe this argument is more along the lines of "Who should be having kids?".
Have a terminal/mental illness? Definitely acceptable in those specific circumstances.
I think those struggling with depression need to realize that everyone has good days and bad days. Some more than others, but that's part of life. Perspective has helped me keep my head up in tough times.
Have a terminal/mental illness? Definitely acceptable in those specific circumstances.
I think those struggling with depression need to realize that everyone has good days and bad days. Some more than others, but that's part of life. Perspective has helped me keep my head up in tough times.
Sometimes I wonder if the option of an assisted suicide wouldn't save more lives than it ends.
The physical act of stating your intentions would be a catharsis and then the therapy that would follow leading up to your (possible) final solution has to be much better than what we have today. Where you just bury your feelings and shame until you spiral past the point of no return.
Plus, it might minimize these deeply troubled people who try to kill themselves by having cops shoot them. If they had an alternative way for someone else to end their suffering, they might choose that way instead.
The physical act of stating your intentions would be a catharsis and then the therapy that would follow leading up to your (possible) final solution has to be much better than what we have today. Where you just bury your feelings and shame until you spiral past the point of no return.
Plus, it might minimize these deeply troubled people who try to kill themselves by having cops shoot them. If they had an alternative way for someone else to end their suffering, they might choose that way instead.
Chaplain
Member
I think this is mainly because people haven't experienced the death (suicide) of a loved one. Until people go through this experience, they will be unaware of what really happens to their loved ones that remain here on Earth.
Collete
Member
I think if you put yourself in their mind and realize how much pain they're going through and feeling there is nothing that can save you, I think people might understand what it is like to be suicidal and to be in so much pain.
Letting them live a life time of agony just because they serve a purpose in your life?
It is your body and soul, you have a right what you should do with it, not others.
What I go through daily is mind numbing depression that I can't even put into words accurately. The sensation that I'm always drowning and there is not a moments relief. Your brain feels like it will burst in a moment and all the while you can't even breathe well and feel like you are in fact dying and want to be put out of your misery.
Top that off, the brain puts over a filter that you feel like you have no one to talk to any longer. That everyone doesn't give a care about you, that you are just a bother or a weight in their life.
And people tell me that it is selfish and I should live for others after living daily with this pain and without any access of help? I'd like to see them last more than a day...
That's my two cents about this matter, anyways.
Letting them live a life time of agony just because they serve a purpose in your life?
It is your body and soul, you have a right what you should do with it, not others.
What I go through daily is mind numbing depression that I can't even put into words accurately. The sensation that I'm always drowning and there is not a moments relief. Your brain feels like it will burst in a moment and all the while you can't even breathe well and feel like you are in fact dying and want to be put out of your misery.
Top that off, the brain puts over a filter that you feel like you have no one to talk to any longer. That everyone doesn't give a care about you, that you are just a bother or a weight in their life.
And people tell me that it is selfish and I should live for others after living daily with this pain and without any access of help? I'd like to see them last more than a day...
That's my two cents about this matter, anyways.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
You don't know what depression is.
What's the cure for depression caused by adult-onset schizophrenia?
That's because once someone gets a terminal illness they stop getting shit and are preparing for death and bonding before the end. I still get shit because I'm still in relatively good health. This isn't that hard to understand.
Same with drug addicts. Fight and fight until you see them killing themselves. Then you accept the inevitably and prepare for the end. Why would you fight up until and through death? Time is limited. And after death, how long until you stop hating them? Not only is it not nice, they're dead, why shit on them for eternity? Get me?
I don't know what I'm talking about in terms of depression, okay. I was severely suicidal for 5-6 years and depressed most of my previous years. I had a chemical imbalance too. I was put on multiple prescriptions but they stopped working or gave me bad side effects. I was horribly malnourished due to alcohol smoking and lack of exercise, so I booted the booze and started eating right. I researched which vitamins I was lacking, B, D, magnesium, and I threw tyrosine and 5htp to boost my dopamine and serotonin respectively. I gave up on hating myself. It got old. I gave up blaming my parents, but they still abused me. So I fought back until they eventually had to understand or I'd be on the streets. Things changed, it took two years but it did. I was broke from booze, but I stopped and now I have some money. I had many many traumatic things hapen over the years including a string of things I couldn't handle. I learned forgiveness and learned over time that those things didn't define me. I had to learn boundaries, specifically mine but also others. Being abused my whole life I didn't understand them, whole new world. Especially while I was angry and depressed. Talk about work. Holding it all in when you want to cry or explode or withdraw. Which I did on my own time. Because I needed to. Women didn't want me so I bitched and moaned, but boy did that make me less attractive. I'm stable now and they smile at me. I acted depressed, so I looked like a loner and.weirdo. So I started to stand up straight. I'm average height but I don't let it bug me, people of all shapes and sizes have fun around me now because I'm friendly and don't make my problems theirs. I don't jump when people say how high, anymore, so I don't build resentment. I do my thing, and if it doesn't feel right I stop. I used to wonder why nobody wanted to talk to me and I had a puss on my face, so I smile more and ask people how their day is. When they think I'm sad, I just laugh and tell them that's my normal expression when nothing is wrong.
And for the record I'm not saying I didn't have a chemical imbalance and I'm not saying others don't have more severe issues. I am saying that I had to readjust my ENTIRE life and even in the best scenario with antidepressants it was all a mask and my fall from "grace" was inevitable. My breakdowns needed to happen, the problem was I wasn't looking for solutions as I had given up. Which if you ask me, was the best thing that ever happened because eventually I was sick and tired of being sick and tired. I'm 5'8", still poor, skinny, don't hang out with many people, mid thirties, but content and working towards success. Somebody doesn't like me? Oh well!
And here's the kicker of this whole thing. You won't believe what I say is true so you will have disdain towards me, and if you do ge better, it takes a ton of reworking so you won't remember me. I get nothing from this, because I've forgotten most of the people who argued with me. I wish I could remember them though, because they were all right. If I could remember the people and faces from my blackout stages, Id go and thank them. Not to say you're blacking out, even if I wasn't so much time has passed I'd probably forget them anyway. So why write then you might ask? Because at least you're still alive for that much longer, because I know how desperate it all feels.
Because even if you decide to spend your time fighting me or others, at least you're still alive to do it.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Suicide is the end result of depression, not a risk from it. The best that we can do is put it off as long as possible, hopefully until death from old age, just like we treat every other disease that we can't outright cure. It's more okay to let people have their suffering stop than to let them continue in that state.
Zaraki_Kenpachi
Member
In your last post you dumbed it down to:
Which basically says if you think about it you just have to realize that you're being stupid and it all goes away. It doesn't work that way. For most people it's more than just having low self esteem, there is much more impacting their decision making, most of which they can't control through just thinking about. Just like every other illness, you can't think and it's magically fixed. That's what my complaint was in regards to and since that statement is factually incorrect, no it doesn't seem like you understand mental illness. I'm sorry for your personal struggles but thinking everyone just needs an epiphany that things aren't so bad isn't how it works. It just doesn't.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Fantasmo thinks being depressed is the same thing as suffering from depression.
BossLackey
Gold Member
Yeah, I've always found it to be pretty stupid when I hear "the easy way out" etc. Never made sense to me.
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