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Super Mario 3D World for Wii U

Honestly, I personally believe the general disappointment boils down to the game's visuals. I think "ideas" have nothing to do with the criticism despite what dissenters claim.

This is a big assumption, but I am confident that if you set the camera directly behind Mario and used a graphical style similar to Galaxy in Dolphin, the game would be more favorably received. I don't even think a single aspect of the level design needs to be changed. I personally believe that people are easily enamored by visuals more than they are by "ideas." Therefore, I think that the criticism on the lack of innovation is misplaced. It is my assumption that people are merely upset because it doesn't look incredible graphically. I also wanted something different than what I got, but a big part of my disappointment honestly comes from the fact that it wasn't the graphical leap I was expecting.

This game is absolutely a big change from traditional 3D Mario games. I would call it an innovation. An isometric perspective makes it easier to incorporate multiplayer, which is totally new to a 3D title. The game features the ability to play as different characters with differet abilities. I haven't played 3D Land in a long time, but I don't recall it having 3D Mario staples such as completely original bosses and "unique" levels such as that Manta Ray racing level or that flying bird level. People seem to like downplaying this, but it's a shame that it happens when many next generation games seem to be getting by on visual presentation alone.
 
I find it strange that one idea going around this topic is that longtime Mario fans wanted a new game in the lineage of Mario 64, Sunshine, and Galaxy, but not this, never this. I grew up playing all the original Mario games, and every one was better than the last, with the possible exception of Mario 2. Mario Bros was great, Mario 3 was massively improved, and Mario World was even better still. Then we got Mario 64, and it played nothing like a Mario game. It was completely awkward when positioned as the next step in Mario games.

And then, much like the original series, the games got better with each entry, with the possible exception of Sunshine. Mario 64 felt strangely not Mario and lacked guidance but had some (some!) interesting level designs, Galaxy felt more along the right path but was still shackled to some of 64's backward design (such as life bars instead of mushrooms), and Galaxy 2 was more of the same but with a lot of fresh ideas that made it easy for me to overlook that it still didn't feel right. And then 3D Land came out and it was the purest 3D representation of Mario yet, with fantastic gameplay and a very smooth feel, and the series finally felt like Mario.

So yeah, when I say 3D World looks fantastic, I'm basically saying that finally we're getting 3D Marios that play like Mario. We're getting games that feel integrated into the original gameplay of the series, without being bound by it. We're getting the tight platforming of the 2D games in a 3D space, with the massive well of ideas that 3D platforming allows.

And I do absolutely believe that people would be reacting entirely differently to this game with a camera positioned behind Mario, so we can see all the terrain elevations and detail closer up, with all the obstacles in the distance, the looming platforms and spinning peg-grass and mice bounding up and down and crystal pipes stretching upwards. I do think the negative reaction is somewhat superficial, with people assuming that since it looks the same it has to be the same, that the levels can't be large, that there are no new ideas, that it's a quaint, basic game.

But there's one thing also that I agree with, and that's the idea that Nintendo needs to do a better job differentiating between their handheld and console games. They already have this problem of consumers saying "I have the Wii, why do I need this tablet," and they're gearing up to have the problem of "I already have Mario, and Mario Kart, and Donkey Kong on my 3DS, so why do I need the WiiU?" Nintendo's really going to have to focus on splitting their design in ways that matters, deciding which games are suited to which system. They have such an immense roster of games that people would love to see, and I hope they do them all justice by thinking of how they can treat them in the best way possible.

But treating Mario in the best way? It's only possible within the new framework of 3D Land. That doesn't mean they can't have an open world game, it doesn't mean they can't have Galaxy-sized ideas, that they can't have a hub world or a world map. When I say 3D Land is absolutely the best, I mean that it has the best gameplay systems. The core control, the jumping physics, the pure platforming, are finally pure Mario, and they work better than they ever have before.
 
Because they don't do what people ask them to do. They do what they think is a more fun and better experience.

This is true, and it's a good thing. Even though I am severely underwhelmed by what I've seen out of 3D World and a few other Nintendo games coming down the pike, I do think that Nintendo has earned at least a little cautious optimism.
 
Lots of people asked for a 3D Land successor. Lots of people asked for a multiplayer 3D Mario. Lots of people asked for this. Lots didn't too.

My there's a lot of people asking a lot of things.

What!? Surely wasn't me! After 3DL, I hoped Nintendo would never make another one and was expecting an adventure on the scale of Galaxy/64 for the Wii U. Now Nintendo runs the risk of having another NSMBU on their hands with people looking at World and Land and not seeing the difference (no pun intended.)
 
Honestly, I personally believe the general disappointment boils down to the game's visuals. I think "ideas" have nothing to do with the criticism despite what dissenters claim.

This is a big assumption, but I am confident that if you set the camera directly behind Mario and used a graphical style similar to Galaxy in Dolphin, the game would be more favorably received. I don't even think a single aspect of the level design needs to be changed. I personally believe that people are easily enamored by visuals more than they are by "ideas." Therefore, I think that the criticism on the lack of innovation is misplaced. It is my assumption that people are merely upset because it doesn't look incredible graphically. I also wanted something different than what I got, but a big part of my disappointment honestly comes from the fact that it wasn't the graphical leap I was expecting.

Not to pigeon hole all the dissenters but I think there is certainly a surprising number of people who are behaving just as you've detailed. Calling out people in this manner may sound belittling (or whatever) but think about it like this. The main method we as gamers have to evaluate games is to play them.

The more we play them the better understanding we have about the game. I just don't think many posters, even here, have a very good ability to break apart a game on its various merits and compare them to another game very well. Which is what many posters here are trying to do, in the absence of any game to play. They take their general gut feeling, and try to find some metrics to support their case. Which is usually a faulty means of trying to find a subjective middle ground for comparison. Look no further than the 3d Land/Galaxy level size comparisons. People would post Galaxylevels of the approximate (playable) size to 3d Land levels but claim Galaxy's are bigger. Obviously the framing of the Galaxy's level against the majesty of space influences the perception of size, but that perception doesn't make Galaxy's levels actually bigger. They're reacting to the graphics.
 
What!? Surely wasn't me! After 3DL, I hoped Nintendo would never make another one and was expecting an adventure on the scale of Galaxy/64 for the Wii U. Now Nintendo runs the risk of having another NSMBU on their hands with people looking at World and Land and not seeing the difference (no pun intended.)

Well, I don't think that will happen yet. Due to the catsuit, multiplayer and a different platform.
 
Honestly, I personally believe the general disappointment boils down to the game's visuals. I think "ideas" have nothing to do with the criticism despite what dissenters claim.

This is a big assumption, but I am confident that if you set the camera directly behind Mario and used a graphical style similar to Galaxy in Dolphin, the game would be more favorably received. I don't even think a single aspect of the level design needs to be changed. I personally believe that people are easily enamored by visuals more than they are by "ideas." Therefore, I think that the criticism on the lack of innovation is misplaced. It is my assumption that people are merely upset because it doesn't look incredible graphically. I also wanted something different than what I got, but a big part of my disappointment honestly comes from the fact that it wasn't the graphical leap I was expecting.

This game is absolutely a big change from traditional 3D Mario games. I would call it an innovation. An isometric perspective makes it easier to incorporate multiplayer, which is totally new to a 3D title. The game features the ability to play as different characters with differet abilities. I haven't played 3D Land in a long time, but I don't recall it having 3D Mario staples such as completely original bosses and "unique" levels such as that Manta Ray racing level or that flying bird level. People seem to like downplaying this, but it's a shame that it happens when many next generation games seem to be getting by on visual presentation alone.

I think the disappointment has to do with the disjointed worlds that don't really have anything to do with each other. There doesn't appear to be an overall theme, just like 3D World. They are just these floating platforms, that don't really make sense in the context of a continuous world.

Galaxy could get away with this due to the story idea that he was visiting different planets.

Super Mario World, 64, and Sunshine all had a theme and you could feel like the world was bigger than it really was.

I think a hub world, or at least a world map that gives a rhyme or reason to the levels could do wonders for placating people.
 
I think the disappointed has to do with the disjointed worlds that don't really have anytging to do with each other. There doesn't appear to be an overall theme, just like 3D World. They are just these floating platforms, that don't really make sense in the context of a continuous world.

Galaxy could get away with this due to the story idea that he was visiting different planets.

Super Mario World, 64, and Sunshine all had a theme and you could feel like the world was bigger than it really was.

I think a hub world, or at least a world map that gives a rhyme or reason to the levels could do wonders for placating people.

That's definitely part of it. The levels that we've seen so far from 3D World just look like floating, pre-fabbed platforming areas that have been snapped together at clean, right angles. They don't look organic at all like they did in Galaxy, Sunshine, and even Mario 64.
 
When I say 3D Land is absolutely the best, I mean that it has the best gameplay systems. The core control, the jumping physics, the pure platforming, are finally pure Mario, and they work better than they ever have before.
Excellent post. Mario Land is my favorite 3D Mario for the reasons you mention. About the differentiation, it includes multiplayer, and that is the main Wii U differentiator vs other platforms, including 3DS. This game is tailored to be a hit, kids will love it. Only problem this Mario has is Wii U's price. Nintendo can sell millions of it if entry price is a mass market price. No matter how good it is, people won't buy a console and Mario for $350.
 
Honestly, I personally believe the general disappointment boils down to the game's visuals. I think "ideas" have nothing to do with the criticism despite what dissenters claim.

There's certainly a truth to that, given the praise for mario kart 8 and how it's a serie with a good amount of negativity in discussions even with dat mk7!
 
I can only speak for myself, but I would by a WiiU just for Mario if it looked like a worthy successor to Galaxy.
I would too; if they showed me something unique enough.

This game looks like it plays too much like Mario 3D Land, which I already own.

I must be in the minority that thinks the games visuals look great, I just don't like how it seems to play.
 
They need big holiday games this year and a real 3d Mario game wouldn't be ready in time.

You know, normally this kind of delusion wouldn't bother me. But it's just going to be real annoying when you "real" 3d Mario believers don't get your game in the next 2-3 years (if ever this gen) and you start your complaining all over again. This is a real 3d Mario, get your complaining out of the way now.
 
They need big holiday games this year and a real 3d Mario game wouldn't be ready in time.

And this is an example why there is no meaningful discussion about the game and probably never will be till the release of the game. Some stupid shit people post like the bolded claiming this isn't a "real 3D Mario" game. People can dislike the style of gameplay, they can want different things, and etc. but stating stupid bullshit like this as a fact is really just something else.

Every other thread you have people discussing about what the game could possibly be like, what kind of stuff is there, what secrets or small details are in the game, and etc. but in this thread we have people saying they don't like the game, they like the game, and then there are people who say shit like this. Then there are arguments between the latter 2 people.
 
They need big holiday games this year and a real 3d Mario game wouldn't be ready in time.

They already have their Marios Olympics and Donkey Kong Country for the holidays. It was not necessary to cripple 3D Mario in their panic mode. Dedicated Nintendo fans are underwhelmed by it (regardless of the defense force in here, no once can deny the poor reception of the game after 6 months of ,,EAD Tokyo will save everything!'') and casuals will probably not see 400$ value in it, considering it looks like the cheaper 3DS version (Just like the rest of the console's library/lineup that consists of Wii leftovers).
This could have been a good time to establish a new franchise with the cat gameplay, while having a full fledged 3D Mario in the works for later. They need something to to establish this console's identity (also by making new casual titles for the gamepad instead of rehashing fucking Wii Fit) instead of solely delivering one safe bet after another (which already didn't work so well at the WiiU launch anyway) and if it went wrong, they still had their great looking Mario Kart on the way and Mario Olympics for the kids at christmas to somehow rely on. The whole existence of 3D World is unnecessary outside of the realm the currently uber-angsty suits at Nintendo live in.

After relying on goddamn Nintendogs and failing, the 3DS also got back on track by delivering games that were clearly made for this system only and also didn't feel like straight copies despite familiar names (which was always the strong side of Nintendo and an acceptable excuse for not always establishing major new IPs - but it falls apart if they start playing it as ridiculously safe as on the WiiU)
 
You know, normally this kind of delusion wouldn't bother me. But it's just going to be real annoying when you "real" 3d Mario believers don't get your game in the next 2-3 years (if ever this gen) and you start your complaining all over again. This is a real 3d Mario, get your complaining out of the way now.

Every new Nintendo systems has a new 3d Mario game with new gameplay mechanics. This is just a sequel to a 3DS game. I consider it in the same realm as the New Super series. It will be a good game, but it still isn't a true new Mario like we've gotten in the past.

And honestly, does anyone not think this game will come to 3DS eventually as well?
 
Some stupid shit people post like the bolded claiming this isn't a "real 3D Mario" game.
I think you can safely replace the "real" with "with high production values and unique theme". I agree, that a making a "bigger" game wouldn't have been possible in this limited time. Actually, I was very surprised when I first heard that a totally new 3D Mario would be coming. It was much too early for the big game I expected the new 3D Mario to be.
If this title turns up bigger than expected, I'd be impressed.
 
Every new Nintendo systems has a new 3d Mario game with new gameplay mechanics. This is just a sequel to a 3DS game. I consider it in the same realm as the New Super series. It will be a good game, but it still isn't a true new Mario like we've gotten in the past.

And honestly, does anyone not think this game will come to 3DS eventually as well?

Ug. Again if you willingly want to ignore things that's your choice. But like the other poster said in response to the original quote, we're not going to have any meaningful discussion about the game if people keep building fake goal posts to keep moving.
 
I find it strange that one idea going around this topic is that longtime Mario fans wanted a new game in the lineage of Mario 64, Sunshine, and Galaxy, but not this, never this. I grew up playing all the original Mario games, and every one was better than the last, with the possible exception of Mario 2. Mario Bros was great, Mario 3 was massively improved, and Mario World was even better still. Then we got Mario 64, and it played nothing like a Mario game. It was completely awkward when positioned as the next step in Mario games.

And then, much like the original series, the games got better with each entry, with the possible exception of Sunshine. Mario 64 felt strangely not Mario and lacked guidance but had some (some!) interesting level designs, Galaxy felt more along the right path but was still shackled to some of 64's backward design (such as life bars instead of mushrooms), and Galaxy 2 was more of the same but with a lot of fresh ideas that made it easy for me to overlook that it still didn't feel right. And then 3D Land came out and it was the purest 3D representation of Mario yet, with fantastic gameplay and a very smooth feel, and the series finally felt like Mario.

So yeah, when I say 3D World looks fantastic, I'm basically saying that finally we're getting 3D Marios that play like Mario. We're getting games that feel integrated into the original gameplay of the series, without being bound by it. We're getting the tight platforming of the 2D games in a 3D space, with the massive well of ideas that 3D platforming allows.

And I do absolutely believe that people would be reacting entirely differently to this game with a camera positioned behind Mario, so we can see all the terrain elevations and detail closer up, with all the obstacles in the distance, the looming platforms and spinning peg-grass and mice bounding up and down and crystal pipes stretching upwards. I do think the negative reaction is somewhat superficial, with people assuming that since it looks the same it has to be the same, that the levels can't be large, that there are no new ideas, that it's a quaint, basic game.

But there's one thing also that I agree with, and that's the idea that Nintendo needs to do a better job differentiating between their handheld and console games. They already have this problem of consumers saying "I have the Wii, why do I need this tablet," and they're gearing up to have the problem of "I already have Mario, and Mario Kart, and Donkey Kong on my 3DS, so why do I need the WiiU?" Nintendo's really going to have to focus on splitting their design in ways that matters, deciding which games are suited to which system. They have such an immense roster of games that people would love to see, and I hope they do them all justice by thinking of how they can treat them in the best way possible.

But treating Mario in the best way? It's only possible within the new framework of 3D Land. That doesn't mean they can't have an open world game, it doesn't mean they can't have Galaxy-sized ideas, that they can't have a hub world or a world map. When I say 3D Land is absolutely the best, I mean that it has the best gameplay systems. The core control, the jumping physics, the pure platforming, are finally pure Mario, and they work better than they ever have before.

This is an interesting post, but I'd argue that SM64 is a natural evolution of the SMW, and to a lesser extent, SMB3.

SMB1 is a very simple, linear game, with tight play controls, relatively little vertical space, lots of hopping and bopping across a horizon plane of challenges. SMB2 is the game I'm the least familar with, but it's pretty similar, yes?

SMB3 is when the gaem started to expand and grow beyond these simple boundaries. Now there's a world map of sorts, transiting between stages, linking them all together with a visual theme, dotted with little side attractions like wandering Hammer Bros or Mushroom houses. You can fly in SMB3 as well, that's probably the biggest addition to the series, and the game is built with more vertical space than SMB1, more secrets and areas to explore above the general horizontal space Mario transverse. Still, there is a limit to how much you can fly, a P-meter you have to build up, and generally the game is still built on the same concept as SMB1; tight play controls, compact and challenging level design. It's my favorite of the 2D Marios.

Things change in SMW. Now you got an even BIGGER world map, with yellow buttons and red buttons and blue buttons that change up the design of the levels. The game has many, many, MANY secret/alternate exits to find, and an entire secret world that's only accessible through these secrets(and the Star World is only beatable by finding the secret exits in THAT world as well!), encourages lots of exploration. Now levels are much larger, more vertical space than ever, with a smaller focus on the tight, concise platforming challenges of the NES trilogy. Now you're given a feather that's even more powerful than the Tanooki suit ever was, allowing you to fly over the entire damn level if you're half decent with it, with lots of secrets exits tucked away in the upper reaches of the game. Mario's play control is looser than the SMB games, more variance in air control to match a game with bigger, larger areas to traverse. The focus from the NES games has started to erode in favor of easier, bigger stages, with the main challenge and appeal of the game being finding those secret exits and exploring the 2d world.

SM64 builds on that. Now you can move in 360 dimensions! It's not just a world map between levels, it's an entire damn hub world, with all it's various nooks and crannies and secrets of it's own. Levels are a long way away from the moment-to-moment focus on platforming the NES games were; now we got huge areas to explore, wing caps to fly around, various goal points you can find in any order you like. There are the occasional platforming focused areas, but it's pretty clear the direction Nintendo is moving the Mario series, becoming more and more like a linear version of Zelda, exploring large environments, with an overworld/hub area to boot. SMS is...more of a sidestep than anything, just continuing the SM64 formula, now with an even bigger hub area to screw around in.

They finally decided to pull it back to the focus on compact, tighter level design and play control with SMG, but they still had those SM64 hanger-ons like the hub world. It takes forever and a day to get to the next damn stage. SMG2, my personal favorite and a top 5 game of the generation, finally gets that balance from SMB3, a minimal amount of exploration, large focus on great ideas and moment-to-moment varied platforming(and other assorted motion-controlled gimmicks that are mostly well done).

3D Land seems like it's the next step in getting back to 2D mario, but it makes some design choices that I'm really not a big fan of. The game is slower than the Galaxies on a moment-to-moment basis, running at 30fps, with a 8-way control design created specifically to cater to d-pad players(as is 3D World...I pity the people having to use the Wiimote to traverse these 3D worlds). Levels are all hard right angles and blocks, little dioramas of Mario games that can't help but come across as small and slight. The Tanooki suit is the most overpowered power-up since SMW's feather, completely trivlizing much of the game, including the final level. Worst, the first half of the game is just...boring. I played through many of the levels in a daze, going through the motions of it's slow, bite-sized areas, rarely really engaging with the gameplay. It felt like a chore to play, which is an absolute failure as a Mario game, IMO. The second half fares much better, with more challenging and engaging gameplay on a regular basis, and the levels come to life(although the Tanooki suit still laughs in the face of most of it). It's a good game, but not a great game for me. First half is a 6/10, second half is an 8/10, overall that's a 7/10.

Could SM3DWorld be that Galaxy 2-esque game, with lots of ideas and challenging, tight level design and fast paced gameplay? Perhaps. But I'm cautious, because it looks very much like a sequel to a game I thought was just "pretty good", with it's biggest addition being a multiplayer mode I have no intention of playing. And the levels demo'd still have that lackadaisal pacing of 3DLand, slower gameplay, rarely challenging, just kinda-sorta engaging for the single player. That's what it looks like to me, I can only judge the material I've seen, based on the games I know(which is 3D Land).

Maybe it's better, but if it continues in the manner of 3DLand, not very likely.
 
I can hardly believe I'm reading this. Listen people, 60fps, multiplayer support and having 4 different jumping characteristics (and new: different running speed) is nothing, because no matter how awesome this last feature is, it was partly done in another 2D game 20 years ago.

1. 60 FPS is not a gameplay innovation.
2. Multiplayer is useless to many of us. It's not even original for Mario platformers.
3. The SMB2 mechanics weren't "partly done" before. They were done before.

New suits have always been anticipated and discussed in Mario games. This one happens to be more ambitious than previous ones. Of course we shall discuss it.

Well, excuse me if I'm not impressed by a single new suit.

It has all Mario Galaxy move sets + a new running boost + ability to grab and throw things. It has more move sets than any previous 3D Mario game, with 4 different jumping mechanics. It extends camera control to new heights. This is your definition of paltry gameplay tweaks?

What running boost? The pads on the ground? That's not a new move. Aside from that, it's the 3D Land moveset. How do I know that? Because it's a direct sequel to 3D Land. The developers said so themselves.

Also Mario always had the ability to "grab and throw things". And Sunshine had a fully controllable camera, despite your claim that swinging a distant camera around classifies as some grand innovation.

These are the definition of paltry gameplay tweaks. One new move. Bringing back SMB2 characters.

Being among the top 10 posters in a >3000 posts thread for a game you have no interest in is weird enough.

1. I'm both interested in the game to buy and to discuss. Where did I say I had no interest in the game?

2. Don't be creepy.

Your belief the whole internet thinks like you ("we're disappointed) is weird again.

I didn't say "the whole internet" agrees with me. But obviously the disappointment this game spurred is not unique to me.

Posters and even gaming sites have recognized how bland and safe Nintendo's E3 was, and this game is the cornerstone of that.

4 levels preview, a full list of new features already unveiled. Reread the post you responded to, your narrative is erronous.

The things you mentioned are not a "full list of new features." 60FPS is not a gameplay innovation. The 4 player mode is not only useless to many of us, but it actively limits what they're able to do with the level design. But it has a new cat suit!

Silent_Ocarina said:
Honestly, I personally believe the general disappointment boils down to the game's visuals. I think "ideas" have nothing to do with the criticism despite what dissenters claim

It's disingenuous for you to assume people are lying. You don't get to decide why people are disappointed. Several "dissenters" have elaborated why this game (which its developers admit is a direct sequel) is not the original experience they wanted.

This game is absolutely a big change from traditional 3D Mario games.

Unless you played 3D Land...
 
Yeah, this took the overhead 90 degree perspective from 3d land but it also took some of the best elements from other Mario games. The perspective is awesome in that it works so well with the eight directional pad. The abstract platforms are perfect if platforming is the focus, which I believe is the focus here.
I'm really taken aback how many people here seem to have such a shallow understandig of Mario games. Galaxy was a nice attempt at make mario appeal to core and casual gameres, but this is a better one.
 
Ug. Again if you willingly want to ignore things that's your choice. But like the other poster said in response to the original quote, we're not going to have any meaningful discussion about the game if people keep building fake goal posts to keep moving.

All posts trying to show off these new mechanics in 3D World just make the game look even more pathetic. In a new mainline Mario, you shouldn't be forced to go into a detailed search to find some differences from it's predecessor. And ,,Old suit, but in 3D - that's never been done!'' isn't exactly astonishing. Galaxy bringing back elements/characters from SMW was a neat bonus for older gamers - but certainly not worth being a goddamn highlight, like here. Neither is multiplayer, especially nowadays in which all other genres (and other Mario games) already did that step lol. Well, that might have been a slightly worthwhile point if it managed to have online mp - but even then it would have still only been ,,impressive'' in the realm of Nintendo.
 
Every new Nintendo systems has a new 3d Mario game with new gameplay mechanics. This is just a sequel to a 3DS game.
What 3D World shares with Mario Land is the wide isometric camera angle (to accommodate multiple players and to make the camera secrets discovery a part of the gameplay). The rest is either new or taking the best from other Mario titles. New moves aside (ability to grab/throw items, mid course boost), playing Toad is a new gameplay mechanic for gamers: he's far more agile than Mario in Galaxy.
 
They need big holiday games this year and a real 3d Mario game wouldn't be ready in time.

people said the same thing about 3D Land being churned out to save the 3DS and how it would be an half assed effort; it turned out to be easily one of the best games of the generation. So, why worry about 3D World ?
 
I'm just wondering, what is this game saying? Is it saying that Nintendo needed something to cash in on this fall and save the Wii U? Is it saying that Nintendo just wanted to continue a series(3D Land) that they felt was interesting and important? Or is it saying that they won't be returning to something like Sunshine or 64 again?

It really seems like every 3D Mario after Sunshine is based on those little secret rooms in Sunshine where they were just floating platforms. I'm just trying to understand where the Mario brand is going and how the masses might perceive it.
 
people said the same thing about 3D Land being churned out to save the 3DS and how it would be an half assed effort; it turned out to be easily one of the best games of the generation. So, why worry about 3D World ?

But but but this generation just started!
 
people said the same thing about 3D Land being churned out to save the 3DS and how it would be an half assed effort; it turned out to be easily one of the best games of the generation. So, why worry about 3D World ?

3D Land was at least an effort to play to the strengths of the 3DS. That's one thing that makes me think that 3D World is a quick, safe cash-in.
 
I'll just go ahead and say that anybody who actually played through 3D Land and legitimately hated it or didn't like it at all doesn't really like Mario to begin with. They just want to watch shit explode on the screen and look at epic vistas. 3D Land was like a portable, toned down Galaxy without the flash. As I said earlier, the levels in 3D Land are necessarily short so that the game can be played in bursts, but if you slap two or three of them together, they rival any level in Galaxy that doesn't depend on the gravity mechanic.

Also, everybody is forgetting that 3D Land does have big, open levels in addition to the obstacle course ones. If you think that the same team that made all of these games is going to shit out a bunch of tiny, horrible levels, then I guess all I can say is that I hope to hear your opinions after actually playing the game.

I was as disappointed as anybody at the moment of this game's reveal, watching on the shitty stream. But it's time to move on past that initial emotional reaction and actually think about it logically for a few minutes. The levels we've seen in the trailer and the demo are already bigger than the individual levels in 3D Land, and we can be sure that Nintendo chose to demo a few exceedingly easy levels so that there weren't just a bunch of gameplay videos of journalists dying nonstop three seconds after a level starts. They were right to do this, by the way, because we still got videos of people struggling to get through the demo levels. I mean, look at Jimmy Fallon. He legitimately couldn't make it to the first pipe in 2-1.
 
In some ways, Mario has a bit of a split timeline.

Nintendo had a tough challenge to overcome after SMW: How best to translate Mario into 3D?

In Earth A, our Earth, they created Super Mario 64. It capitalized on two main features of its predecessor: notably, strongly themed worlds and an emphasis on exploration. It also banked big on 3D, making the plunge absolute

Sunshine iterated over this same model, narrowing the scope to further accomplish a strong theme and rewarding exploration thanks to FLUDD.

Galaxy, of course, was largely the pinnacle of this timeline.


In Earth B, Nintendo instead released Super Mario 3D Land. What better way to translate Mario into 3D then by literally fusing 2D and 3D together in the same game?

Levels went back to being more abstracted, similar to the first 3 games in the series. Indeed, the Land was full of callbacks to the previous entries in the series. Additionally, the focus was shifted to challenging platforming rather than exploration.

Now we're getting 3D World. It's not quite relatable to SMS in Earth A's timeline. It's closer to the jump between SM3 and SMW.


I'm being silly, of course, but I do seriously think that this line of reasoning explains the sometimes extreme divisiveness of 3D Land. It really is a totally different approach to Mario in a 3D place, one that is far closer to the classic games than SM64.
 
3D Land was at least an effort to play to the strengths of the 3DS. That's one thing that makes me think that 3D World is a quick, safe cash-in.

Yeah, I don't get why this is so hard for some people to understand. I don't think anyone doubts that this game will offer great stage design..
But at the end the day, this is still ,,just'' a direct sequel to a previous game (that isn't even old). This has never happened before on new hardware. The WiiU isn't exactly doing good right now, in both sales and game development, so it's heart breaking that even one of their best teams relies on such a safe and underwhelming route. In that sense, it doesn't matter how fun the levels gonna be. It will never replace the experience and wonders of a Mario 64 or Galaxy. It clearly is a direct copy of 3D Land, not the new HD Mario experience that was expected, tailored for the WiiU.
And some nitpicking like ,,bubut you CAN THROW BASEBALLS in this and there's an additional boost for the characters!!'' does not in the slightest change that this game simply can not live up to the series' legacy. All the nit picking from the defense force always seems to miss the point completely That kind of arguing just makes it look worse. If they aren't hiding anything major, this game shares the looks, ''world structure'', music style (the underground remix is even 1:1 the same afaik), controls and core gameplay concept of 3D Land. This is not the brandnew HD Mario many were expecting and not the one a already failing console like the WiiU needs. It's a map pack for the 3DS game, that still lived up to the series' standards considering it was perfectly suited for the platform, but shouldn't be their effort on their first HD console too.
 
In some ways, Mario has a bit of a split timeline.

Nintendo had a tough challenge to overcome after SMW: How best to translate Mario into 3D?

In Earth A, our Earth, they created Super Mario 64. It capitalized on two main features of its predecessor: notably, strongly themed worlds and an emphasis on exploration. It also banked big on 3D, making the plunge absolute

Sunshine iterated over this same model, narrowing the scope to further accomplish a strong theme and rewarding exploration thanks to FLUDD.

Galaxy, of course, was largely the pinnacle of this timeline.


In Earth B, Nintendo instead released Super Mario 3D Land. What better way to translate Mario into 3D then by literally fusing 2D and 3D together in the same game?

Levels went back to being more abstracted, similar to the first 3 games in the series. Indeed, the Land was full of callbacks to the previous entries in the series. Additionally, the focus was shifted to challenging platforming rather than exploration.

Now we're getting 3D World. It's not quite relatable to SMS in Earth A's timeline. It's closer to the jump between SM3 and SMW.


I'm being silly, of course, but I do seriously think that this line of reasoning explains the sometimes extreme divisiveness of 3D Land. It really is a totally different approach to Mario in a 3D place, one that is far closer to the classic games than SM64.

Huh, I don't know. I can clearly see they making the games more linear through time, and transforming that SM64 formula into the SM3DL formula. Galaxy 2 is VERY linear and arleady mix 2D with 3D gameplays.
 
The drama when it comes to this game is out of control. A map pack to a handheld game? Are you people daft?

Kindly fuck off. I didn't like 3D Land as much as I liked previous 3D Marios because it was slow, Mario was far less fun to control, the platforming was rudimentary and boring for half of the game if we're feeling generous, and it was in every respect a step backwards from games we've seen before.

Go take your No True Scotsman bullshit elsewhere.

Why are you being so emotional about a videogame? Clearly I was talking about people who hated it or didn't like it at all, which is not you. Seriously, if the idea of this game is getting you this riled up, don't buy it. For your health.
 
I'll just go ahead and say that anybody who actually played through 3D Land and legitimately hated it or didn't like it at all doesn't really like Mario to begin with. They just want to watch shit explode on the screen and look at epic vistas.

Kindly fuck off. I didn't like 3D Land as much as I liked previous 3D Marios because it was slow, Mario was far less fun to control, the platforming was rudimentary and boring for half of the game if we're feeling generous, and it was in every respect a step backwards from games we've seen before.

Go take your No True Scotsman bullshit elsewhere.
 
1. 60 FPS is not a gameplay innovation.
It's not even original for Mario platformers.
Again, 60fps was one of the many highlights opposing the "same as 3DS" comment.

"Multiplayer is useless to many of us":
=> too bad, doesn't mean it's not awesome to have it in a 3D Mario. It is.

"The SMB2 mechanics weren't "partly done" before. They were done before":
=> you could run faster with Toad before? Maybe my memory plays tricks on me. Anyway, it changes mechanics and benefits the game in terms of variety and replay value. That's great to have in my books, moreso after 20 years.


"What running boost? The pads on the ground? That's not a new move:
When you run at one point you get a boost, here's the video you missed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=JooUqPF2Lf4#t=112s

It rewards expert playing and makes speed runs more interesting

Aside from that, it's the 3D Land moveset. Also Mario always had the ability to "grab and throw things". And Sunshine had a fully controllable camera, despite your claim that swinging a distant camera around classifies as some grand innovation.
Taking the best features of each game is great. About the 3D land comparison, riding the Dinosaur thing looked like they wouldn't look out of place in Galaxy, plus the creatures of the boss battle is reminiscent of Galaxy.



These are the definition of paltry gameplay tweaks. One new move. Bringing back SMB2 characters.
Again, nothing paltry in adding more moves, suits and offering 4 different gameplay on top of that.


It's disingenuous for you to assume people are lying. You don't get to decide why people are disappointed.
You assume I say people are lying! It doesn't work like that: me disagreeing with you =/= saying you're lying. I respect people being disappointed by anything. Some people don't like chocolate, others vanilla, and who would I be to say something against that? Now when I read this is just a 3D Land rehash, this is just wrong. I bring up the facts to correct this narrative. In terms of game design, this game is ambitious as hell. The amount of test that needs to be done to cope with 4 players simultaneously AND different characteristics for each character - whatever the amount of players- is extremely ambitious. I find it brilliant to get a shot at it in terms of game design, EAD Tokyo has the track record to make it great.
 
Why are you being so emotional about a videogame? Clearly I was talking about people who hated it or didn't like it at all, which is not you. Seriously, if the idea of this game is getting you this riled up, don't buy it. For your health.

On the contrary, I will buy it, and I will almost certainly enjoy it... in much the same I enjoyed 3D Land.

Doesn't make your point that people only disliked 3D Land if they weren't true believers any less stupidly facile. We've spent the last fortnight having happy clappers telling us that we should feel blessed for the paltry innovation that this title is bringing simply because it's the iteration of a formula that some of us didn't like all that much, and people expecting that to be an end.

Have some of you actually stopped and looked at some of the stuff that you're highlighting as gameplay innovation? Toad running faster and boost pads? Galaxy 2 had genuinely new ideas that dwarfed that in damn near every stage. If you're happy with what you're seeing, then that's great; good for you, in fact. Just stop trying to pretend that this is anything other than an iterative 3D Land sequel, because some of you are really, really straining here.
 
This is an interesting post, but I'd argue that SM64 is a natural evolution of the SMW, and to a lesser extent, SMB3.

SMB1 is a very simple, linear game, with tight play controls, relatively little vertical space, lots of hopping and bopping across a horizon plane of challenges. SMB2 is the game I'm the least familar with, but it's pretty similar, yes?

SMB3 is when the gaem started to expand and grow beyond these simple boundaries. Now there's a world map of sorts, transiting between stages, linking them all together with a visual theme, dotted with little side attractions like wandering Hammer Bros or Mushroom houses. You can fly in SMB3 as well, that's probably the biggest addition to the series, and the game is built with more vertical space than SMB1, more secrets and areas to explore above the general horizontal space Mario transverse. Still, there is a limit to how much you can fly, a P-meter you have to build up, and generally the game is still built on the same concept as SMB1; tight play controls, compact and challenging level design. It's my favorite of the 2D Marios.

Things change in SMW. Now you got an even BIGGER world map, with yellow buttons and red buttons and blue buttons that change up the design of the levels. The game has many, many, MANY secret/alternate exits to find, and an entire secret world that's only accessible through these secrets(and the Star World is only beatable by finding the secret exits in THAT world as well!), encourages lots of exploration. Now levels are much larger, more vertical space than ever, with a smaller focus on the tight, concise platforming challenges of the NES trilogy. Now you're given a feather that's even more powerful than the Tanooki suit ever was, allowing you to fly over the entire damn level if you're half decent with it, with lots of secrets exits tucked away in the upper reaches of the game. Mario's play control is looser than the SMB games, more variance in air control to match a game with bigger, larger areas to traverse. The focus from the NES games has started to erode in favor of easier, bigger stages, with the main challenge and appeal of the game being finding those secret exits and exploring the 2d world.

SM64 builds on that. Now you can move in 360 dimensions! It's not just a world map between levels, it's an entire damn hub world, with all it's various nooks and crannies and secrets of it's own. Levels are a long way away from the moment-to-moment focus on platforming the NES games were; now we got huge areas to explore, wing caps to fly around, various goal points you can find in any order you like. There are the occasional platforming focused areas, but it's pretty clear the direction Nintendo is moving the Mario series, becoming more and more like a linear version of Zelda, exploring large environments, with an overworld/hub area to boot. SMS is...more of a sidestep than anything, just continuing the SM64 formula, now with an even bigger hub area to screw around in.

They finally decided to pull it back to the focus on compact, tighter level design and play control with SMG, but they still had those SM64 hanger-ons like the hub world. It takes forever and a day to get to the next damn stage. SMG2, my personal favorite and a top 5 game of the generation, finally gets that balance from SMB3, a minimal amount of exploration, large focus on great ideas and moment-to-moment varied platforming(and other assorted motion-controlled gimmicks that are mostly well done).

3D Land seems like it's the next step in getting back to 2D mario, but it makes some design choices that I'm really not a big fan of. The game is slower than the Galaxies on a moment-to-moment basis, running at 30fps, with a 8-way control design created specifically to cater to d-pad players(as is 3D World...I pity the people having to use the Wiimote to traverse these 3D worlds). Levels are all hard right angles and blocks, little dioramas of Mario games that can't help but come across as small and slight. The Tanooki suit is the most overpowered power-up since SMW's feather, completely trivlizing much of the game, including the final level. Worst, the first half of the game is just...boring. I played through many of the levels in a daze, going through the motions of it's slow, bite-sized areas, rarely really engaging with the gameplay. It felt like a chore to play, which is an absolute failure as a Mario game, IMO. The second half fares much better, with more challenging and engaging gameplay on a regular basis, and the levels come to life(although the Tanooki suit still laughs in the face of most of it). It's a good game, but not a great game for me. First half is a 6/10, second half is an 8/10, overall that's a 7/10.

Could SM3DWorld be that Galaxy 2-esque game, with lots of ideas and challenging, tight level design and fast paced gameplay? Perhaps. But I'm cautious, because it looks very much like a sequel to a game I thought was just "pretty good", with it's biggest addition being a multiplayer mode I have no intention of playing. And the levels demo'd still have that lackadaisal pacing of 3DLand, slower gameplay, rarely challenging, just kinda-sorta engaging for the single player. That's what it looks like to me, I can only judge the material I've seen, based on the games I know(which is 3D Land).

Maybe it's better, but if it continues in the manner of 3DLand, not very likely.
Super Mario World's levels were bigger and more open, but they were also a LOT less challenging. Super Mario World is one of the easiest Mario games in the series. It has fewer level than SMB3, and only a few secret exits are much of a secret. If you love secrets and challenge, shouldn't 3D Land be one of your favorite games? You have to collect star coins to unlock levels. There are 3 of those hidden in every level and a lot of them are a challenge to find and get. I just find it strange you laud SMW and find 3D Land only so-so. I agree 3D Land has problems, but they were pretty much entirely due to the platform it was on.

Super Mario 64 never really felt like Mario translated to 3D. There wasn't a lot of challenging platforming; it had some, but the game dealt more with navigating 3D space to find stars. Every level has a list of missions for you to follow and the only missions that don't show up on this list are the 100 coin challenges. Some stars were bullshit where you'd go through a level doing the same things you already did but go just a little bit further and get another star. The secrets of the game come from finding hidden levels in and around the castle, which is cool. It was something unique for the time and it was a great game.

Since 64, 3D Mario has moved closer and closer to Mario in 3D. Sunshine put a lot more focus back on platforming, but tropical theme was a hindrance and some missions were a chore. Mario Galaxy went back to platforming a little more and made the levels more linear and focused. 3D Land evolved Galaxy further and brought Mario platforming fully into 3D, but due to the platform being 3DS the levels were shorter. And now we have 3D World, which looks like it takes the best elements from past Mario games and pulls them together into a definitive 3D Mario experience. It's like they finally got to where they've been trying to get to. And as I said before, there is no reason why it won't have some of the more adventurous elements they introduced with Mario 64. Even 3D Land, limited as it was by its platform, had some more exploration-based levels. There are still secrets to find and most likely levels to unlock.

Unrelated to the quoted post. I'm not a fan of levels floating in the sky either; and I wasn't a fan of it when Mario 64 did it. If you're going to argue that you don't like it because it's illogical, Mario 64 doesn't get a pass either. Galaxy is the only game that gave a reasonable explanation for doing it. It's funny people disliking this game because levels are like dioramas when that's what Mario 64 was.

Also, I would say this isn't a very safe 3D Mario. A large amount of the criticism against it is basically that it's TOO DIFFERENT from past 3D Mario games. The levels are more linear and platforming focused rather than adventure-style missions of the past. For some reason people lump Galaxy in with Mario 64 and Sunshine when the majority of its levels and missions are closer to 3D Land and 3D World.
 
On the contrary, I will buy it, and I will almost certainly enjoy it... in much the same I enjoyed 3D Land.

Doesn't make your point that people only disliked 3D Land if they weren't true believers any less stupidly facile. We've spent the last fortnight having happy clappers telling us that we should feel blessed for the paltry innovation that this title is bringing simply because it's the iteration of a formula that some of us didn't like all that much, and people expecting that to be an end.

Have some of you actually stopped and looked at some of the stuff that you're highlighting as gameplay innovation? Toad running faster and boost pads? Galaxy 2 had genuinely new ideas that dwarfed that in damn near every stage. If you're happy with what you're seeing, then that's great; good for you, in fact. Just stop trying to pretend that this is anything other than an iterative 3D Land sequel, because some of you are really, really straining here.

You will buy it and enjoy it. Congratulations, I was not talking about you in the least and you jumped down my throat for absolutely no reason. I said nothing about being a true believer, my point was that the levels in 3D Land are incredibly similar to a majority of the levels in Galaxy and feature incredibly similar mechanics. You didn't seem to enjoy the actual level design and layout as much. I think they will up the complexity in this. We will find out. I went into detail on all of this in my post, but you apparently saw red after my first sentence and went from there.

Judging by your last paragraph, you're clearly mistaking me for someone else. (Edit: my mistake here, I misread "some of you" as just "you.")
 
Super Mario World's levels were bigger and more open, but they were also a LOT less challenging. Super Mario World is one of the easiest Mario games in the series. It has fewer level than SMB3, and only a few secret exits are much of a secret. If you love secrets and challenge, shouldn't 3D Land be one of your favorite games? You have to collect star coins to unlock levels. There are 3 of those hidden in every level and a lot of them are a challenge to find and get. I just find it strange you laud SMW and find 3D Land only so-so. I agree 3D Land has problems, but they were pretty much entirely due to the platform it was on.

I'm sorry if you read my post that way, but I am NOT a fan of SMW, not at all! It's because of that move away to big, easy levels and lots of exploration away from the NES trilogy. I should have made myself clearer, I was merely pointing out that SM64's gameplay is really a natural extension of the direction SMW created. My favorite 2D Mario is SMB3. My favorite 3D platformer is SMG2, because of all the games in the SM64 mold(SM64, SMS, Jak and Daxter, Banjo Kazooie/Tooie, DK64, etc), it's the mostly closely linked game to the 2d-style of platformers.

By all rights I SHOULD have been a bigger fan of 3D Land than I was, but I wasn't. Maybe this is better. Maybe this will be the NSMB Wii was to that dreadfully mediocre NSMB DS.
 
All posts trying to show off these new mechanics in 3D World just make the game look even more pathetic. In a new mainline Mario, you shouldn't be forced to go into a detailed search to find some differences from it's predecessor. And ,,Old suit, but in 3D - that's never been done!'' isn't exactly astonishing. Galaxy bringing back elements/characters from SMW was a neat bonus for older gamers - but certainly not worth being a goddamn highlight, like here. Neither is multiplayer, especially nowadays in which all other genres (and other Mario games) already did that step lol. Well, that might have been a slightly worthwhile point if it managed to have online mp - but even then it would have still only been ,,impressive'' in the realm of Nintendo.

Eh, its I'd say arguments in favor of 3d World's new mechanics might ring a bit false for some us because...

1. The very same argument that would be made for a Mario World or a Mario Sunshine's (or any Mario that isn't isn't SMB, Mario64, or Galaxy) new mechanics would sound equally as meek. Longer levels, more exits, little ramps to run up some walls, a new block, a cape instead of a feather? Three new nozzles, and a jet pack? Doesn't sound like an awesome change on paper. On paper. Which brings us to..

2. We need to play the game. Focused design can turn small details into major themes. Listing out these few changes (that we do know) only goes so far without the game to support it. Mario World's exits weren't even a new thing to Mario but the way the game systematically used them in conjunction with an expanded overworld gave players a new sense of an actual Mario world.

3. A lot of players here don't/won't play any multiplayer so they don't know what kind of change it actually brings to the game (which IMO is huge). You know this is besides the fact that people like you like you being completely disingenuous about the feature.
 
Eh, its I'd say arguments in favor of 3d World's new mechanics might ring a bit false for some us because...

A lot of the arguments for how 3D World is innovative are down to how the game is played, rather than new ideas of gameplay design.

Putting aside my thoughts on how innovative or otherwise these things that people are talking about are, they still don't represent a new way to actually interact with the game world. I was excited to drill through planets, to go through a water level and then to skate through it, and to play through levels that were disassembling themselves from beneath my feet in Galaxy 2. None of what has been shown for 3D World has anywhere near the potential for changing the platform mechanics with the sole exception of the cat suit. I'm certainly not excited by speedy Toad or floaty Peach.
Not enough rolling hills and organic environments in this one. Hopefully they bring back Peach's castle as the hub world. :/

Hub world? You should be so lucky. Anything above 3D Land's straight and sparse line for level selection will be more than I'm expecting from this.
 
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