I'm with you on this, 16.
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Super Mario 3D World perfected Mario in 3D
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A Link to the Past
Banned
That is what 3D Mario is at its core though. You can't just act like the games that created the foundation for 3D Marios are just weird outliers.
PhilipDoesMatter
Member
No way completely disagree. Galaxy did this a million times better. Even 64 os better on this sense.
EatinOlives
Member
Don't know about the boss fights, but I find 3D World to be superior to SMG2 for the very reasons you posted. It made me realize that "true 3D movement" is actually more constraining in design because you as a designer can't account for players being able to turn and stop on a dime the way you can in 3D World. 8-way movement is by far the best change they made. I played SMG2 and 3DW back to back and am fully confident in saying SMG2 feels like 3DW v. 0.5. Does just about the same thing as 3DW does but more primitively. I think 3DW is easily the superior of the two.
Of course, it's tailor made to this particular game so I don't expect the same movement control scheme to carry over.
For the people that consider 3D World to be just NSMB in 3D, is Ocarina of Time just ALTTP in 3D? Because that's what it is. A faithful transition of Zelda's 2D formula from 2D to 3D, which Mario 64 wasn't.
I more or less agree with the topic. 3D Land basically perfectly translated Mario in 2D into 3D featuring the same sort of challenges and movement. The earlier 3D Marios more or less did their own thing, which isn't bad, but they weren't Super Mario World in 3D like Ocarina was ALTTP in 3D. While I don't know if I think 3D World is better than Land, it still followed the same principle of making sure the player had a similar experience between the 2D and 3D games. Which makes 3D Land/World the best at being a 3D Mario. Which doesn't necessarily make them better games (Galaxy is far better), but they live up to their namesake perfectly.
I more or less agree with the topic. 3D Land basically perfectly translated Mario in 2D into 3D featuring the same sort of challenges and movement. The earlier 3D Marios more or less did their own thing, which isn't bad, but they weren't Super Mario World in 3D like Ocarina was ALTTP in 3D. While I don't know if I think 3D World is better than Land, it still followed the same principle of making sure the player had a similar experience between the 2D and 3D games. Which makes 3D Land/World the best at being a 3D Mario. Which doesn't necessarily make them better games (Galaxy is far better), but they live up to their namesake perfectly.
It is just my opinion, I just happen to think its a correct opinion. I also understand adding multiplayer to things makes complete business sense since multiplayer tends to be vary appealing to most casual gamers and therefore reaches a bigger audience, its a good way to sell more units.
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
Explore what? There nothing interesting to discover in those levels or reason to explore outside of what's required for the star.
Mario isn't Zelda or Metroid.
A Link to the Past
Banned
I disagree. Some of my fondest exploration moments in gaming were in Sunshine - it had a lot of stuff to discover and explore.
being able to tackle a star in a number of different ways is the reason why 64 and sunshine are still so replayable even to this day
unfortunately it's not the case with the more linear games like galaxies and 3D land/world
some people like the linearity. others prefer the more open level design of the first two 3d marios.
Nope.
I have played that game many times. Last time when it was release in the WiiU Virtual Console. I don't know for you, but for me it never was an easy game. It's much more easier than Sunshine, of course, but not that easy.
And if I play it now, it will be easy for me, because I have played it many times, I know where the star is, and I know how to get there. But the first time I played it... It was hard, not frustrating and very enjoyable, but hard.
I bet that many people who never played it don't know how to beat King Bomb to get the first star. And same with many other levels. Big/small world, however is called, is insane. Finding the way to get the metal cap in the underground labirinth is insane as well. Getting many red coins, specially when you need to fly, is still difficult for me. Arriving to the underwater village in the world where you can control the level of water is nuts. All this mindblow and need of skills is not present in 3D World
3D World is just a simple and straight walk to the goal from the beginning. You don't need to play this game often to find it easy.
Bronetta
Ask me about the moon landing or the temperature at which jet fuel burns. You may be surprised at what you learn.
Look in your heart, you know it to be true. If not, just read the dozens of posts which followed and will follow.
timetokill
Banned
You serious, Clark?
You mean the big red text where King Bob-Omb literally tells you how to beat him is somehow obscure for new players? Even my mom beat him on her first try, and she can barely make Mario walk in a straight line.
Meanwhile in 3D World I have to carry her to the end of levels because they're far more technically demanding.
A Link to the Past
Banned
I find 3D World to be much easier than 64, though I do not necessarily consider that an advantage of 64's given why I find it harder.
I'd agree to that. While I think Sunshine and Galaxy are better, 3D Land was much closer to the way Mario games were on the NES and SNES, and World was just better than Land. 64 and the games like it are quite different in terms of level and world structure compared to the 2D games.
I still want Sunshine 2.
I still want Sunshine 2.
GametimeUK
Member
I'm going to say yeah, pretty much. If I had to imagine A Link to the Past in a 3D then I would imagine it to look something like Ocarina of Time. If I had to imagine Super Mario Bros in 3D then 3D Land and World would be by my vision as opposed to 64, Sunshine and Galaxy.
There are roughly three types of 3D Mario games; 64 and Sunshine, the two Galaxy titles and the 3D titles, though one could argue they are all different in their own way. There's no core to what a 3D Mario have game entails, it's been continuously evolving.
2D Mario started with single screen levels where the aim was usually get to the top. Nintendo would have been rather limited if they had to stick with the formula they came up with the first time round.
Honestly, I find it impossible to believe that someone couldn't get to the finish line in the first level of 3D World, where the path is linear, and be able to get to the end in 64 where once you start, you can take all directions and nowhere tells you you must go to the top of the mountain.
Even my brother, who never had interest in video games could get to the goal in 3D World easily, and he didn't even know the game existed before. After beating the same level, he was frutrated, and didn't want to play more because it was too easy. And he had played 64 in a friend's house when he was young, and he said that prefered Super Mario Bros because it wasn't so difficult and was more fun.
Simbabbad
Member
On paper, this all sounds really good, but in practise, I spent a good chunk of my time in Super Mario 3D World accidentally falling in chasms or landing right next to enemies I was targeting. And if I trust the dedicated NeoGAF thread, I was very far from being the only one.
Super Mario 3D Land is called Super Mario 3D Land because it has stereoscopic 3D, so its more or less isometric design didn't cause any trouble in depth perception, and I never, ever landed Mario or Luigi anywhere I didn't expect them to. In 3D World, on the other hand, the forced "isometric" viewpoint without stereoscopic 3D caused tons of depth perception problems or optical illusions resulting in many "what?" deaths.
Add to that the weird handling sticking characters to 8 direction movement and the weird way running speed is handled (walking speed, then press the run button, then first running speed reached, then run for a bit, then second running speed reached), and you have an unintuitive mess that results in tons of errors.
Don't get me wrong, I had a lot of fun with Super Mario 3D World, and after I started obsessively looking at my character's shadow, I could avoid a lot of deaths. But ironically, to me it was the exact opposite as you say here:
The fact the main costume of the game allows you to climb on walls should tell you platforming isn't as much a main factor as you think it is in Super Mario 3D World.
Also, I loathed the 8 direction movement and the speed threshold thing. Caused tons of deaths and made the characters just unpleasant to control. There is also no sense of universe in this game, sure, it's imaginative, but it all feels like the result of desperate brainstorming sessions glued together without any sense of cohesive whole - a bit like Super Mario Galaxy 2, actually. Everything feels arbitrary, whereas Super Mario 64, Super Mario Sunshine, Super Mario Galaxy of course and even Super Mario 3D Land, despite their weirdness, all felt like they belonged to one consistent vision. Hey, even Captain Toad actually makes a much better job at it too despite its wild creativity, you get attached to its world and characters whereas Super Mario 3D World feels like Mario Party.
Also, the end boss sucks. It's just a cinematic set piece.
Finally, two observations:
1) Super Mario Galaxy also managed to adapt 2D gameplay to 3D, its gravity gimmick being just an elegant way to control the camera and always orient it in a way where you see where you're landing, and this while having a very rich world with some freedom and a real artistic vision. And Super Mario 3D Land is IMO a much better "get to the end through platforming" game than Super Mario 3D World.
2) A lot of things I dislike in Super Mario 3D World are caused by the multiplayer. Multiplayer implies the forced perspective, the 8 direction movement, and probably the speed thresholds to accommodate to beginners. With this, Nintendo hurt the game for probably a VERY small audience, the percentage of people really playing this game in multiplayer being surely a very tiny minority. Make a multiplayer mode or something, but stop hurting the single player because of a marginally used multiplayer mode.
Super Mario 3D Land is called Super Mario 3D Land because it has stereoscopic 3D, so its more or less isometric design didn't cause any trouble in depth perception, and I never, ever landed Mario or Luigi anywhere I didn't expect them to. In 3D World, on the other hand, the forced "isometric" viewpoint without stereoscopic 3D caused tons of depth perception problems or optical illusions resulting in many "what?" deaths.
Add to that the weird handling sticking characters to 8 direction movement and the weird way running speed is handled (walking speed, then press the run button, then first running speed reached, then run for a bit, then second running speed reached), and you have an unintuitive mess that results in tons of errors.
Don't get me wrong, I had a lot of fun with Super Mario 3D World, and after I started obsessively looking at my character's shadow, I could avoid a lot of deaths. But ironically, to me it was the exact opposite as you say here:
I actually had fun in Super Mario 3D World as long as I looked for all three green stars and each stamp in each level. The moment I completed that task and ran to the end just to beat levels or improve my best time, my enjoyment took a nose dive, because after you take the surprise factor and exploration out of the game, it's rather dull and not very fun. Whereas I completed Super Mario Galaxy and Super Mario 3D Land twice in a row (Mario then Luigi) without such issue.
The fact the main costume of the game allows you to climb on walls should tell you platforming isn't as much a main factor as you think it is in Super Mario 3D World.
Also, I loathed the 8 direction movement and the speed threshold thing. Caused tons of deaths and made the characters just unpleasant to control. There is also no sense of universe in this game, sure, it's imaginative, but it all feels like the result of desperate brainstorming sessions glued together without any sense of cohesive whole - a bit like Super Mario Galaxy 2, actually. Everything feels arbitrary, whereas Super Mario 64, Super Mario Sunshine, Super Mario Galaxy of course and even Super Mario 3D Land, despite their weirdness, all felt like they belonged to one consistent vision. Hey, even Captain Toad actually makes a much better job at it too despite its wild creativity, you get attached to its world and characters whereas Super Mario 3D World feels like Mario Party.
Also, the end boss sucks. It's just a cinematic set piece.
Finally, two observations:
1) Super Mario Galaxy also managed to adapt 2D gameplay to 3D, its gravity gimmick being just an elegant way to control the camera and always orient it in a way where you see where you're landing, and this while having a very rich world with some freedom and a real artistic vision. And Super Mario 3D Land is IMO a much better "get to the end through platforming" game than Super Mario 3D World.
2) A lot of things I dislike in Super Mario 3D World are caused by the multiplayer. Multiplayer implies the forced perspective, the 8 direction movement, and probably the speed thresholds to accommodate to beginners. With this, Nintendo hurt the game for probably a VERY small audience, the percentage of people really playing this game in multiplayer being surely a very tiny minority. Make a multiplayer mode or something, but stop hurting the single player because of a marginally used multiplayer mode.
It's called New Super Luigi U, IMO a MUCH better game than Super Mario 3D World.
In a nutshell.
outunderthestars
Banned
Couldn't get into the game because of the forced gamepad functions and focus on local multiplayer. The mechanics are amazing though. Really excited to see what is next
A Link to the Past
Banned
This is indeed the case, but for me it would be more interesting if their evolution of 3D Mario was not to create a certain degree of parity between 2D and 3D. Or if they would evolve 2D Mario in turn by making an exploration-based 2D platformer.
timetokill
Banned
You mean other than the fly-by at the beginning of the level that tells you exactly where to go? Or the note you read at the beginning of the level?
Seriously, play the game again. It's clear you don't remember it.
Anecodotal, but my mom can get to the first Bowser level in Mario 64 and beat Bowser, which includes several worlds obviously.
She can't get past the first castle in Mario 3D World, because the platforming is too technical for her.
The 2D games require technical skill FAR beyond the 3D entries because they can -- they're precise and don't have to worry about players understanding depth projected on a 2D plane. This is why Galaxy tries to put its gameplay in 2D as much as possible. Because the kind of difficulty 3D platforming a la Mario 64 gives you is not compelling nor a measure of skill.
outunderthestars
Banned
Couldn't not possibly disagree more. So tired of the 2D games.
They did, twice. They're called Yoshi's Island and Wario Land, both of which started life as Mario titles.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
No, OoT is really not just aLttP in 3D. That would be ALBW; which you cannot deny is a 3D Zelda give the extensive use of depth in many of the dungeons and in the overworld. OoT is to aLttP as SM64 is to SMB3 - a genre adjusted to take the most of a new medium, rather than a genre faithfully translated to a new medium.
timetokill
Banned
I should also add that you can beat several levels in Mario 64 without even jumping. How's that for a game "requiring" platforming skills?
old manatee
Banned
3d Land was more fun imo.
Neff
Member
If you don't have platforming skills, you aren't going to finish the game, simple as that.
CrunchyFrog
Member
This seems to misunderstand the design philosophies behind the various sub-series of the Mario franchise. 3DW is cut from the Galaxy cloth that aims to bring the 2D mario's sidescrolling "race to the finish" goals into the 3D realm, whereas the 64 and Sunshine philosophies were more inspired by things like Wario Land which is more designed around exploration, discovery, and backtracking. It is though going back to Mario's more pure roots, while the open world ideas appear to be shifting back to Zelda as with ALBW and BotW they seem to being veering back to the series original incarnation as a more open world adventure as opposed to linear dungeon crawl with sidequests.
A Link to the Past
Banned
I do not think that I would equate the shift from Mario to Yoshi/Wario (the first Wario anyway) to be nearly as drastic as the shift away from wide, explorable levels/adventure gameplay of 64 and Sunshine. Yoshi's Island, for the most part, was a linear game where you could go to side areas to find level collectibles (the map was literally a straight line even; before YI, the last game to do that was Super Mario Land). As for Wario Land, it was slightly more exploratory than Mario games often were - including two worlds that you could easily never see in a playthrough - but in large part, Wario Land was a fairly linear game.
OTOH, you had sequels like Yoshi's Story - which not only had a very interesting map system, but also had a purely nonlinear level design - and Wario Land II - which really needs no explaining, its goals, focus, and linearity are very noteworthy - but at this point the designers very clearly began to separate the series. Where YI co-starred Mario and Wario Land was in the Mario series (along with a Mario cameo), both games officially began to branch off and form their own identities. This of course was quite cool, but at this point it is difficult to consider them as far as being representative of any direction the Mario series is taking.
What I'm talking about, I guess, is something akin to Yoshi's Story. To where it's not about reaching a level goal, you're just going through to collect shit, maybe have star goals - something. It has been frustrating to me to see that while 3D Mario is making big changes while 2D Mario stagnates. Further, I have to wonder how much people think that the changes to 3D Mario are a product of a desire to innovate; for me, 3D Mario is going in this direction because the designers wanted to have greater mass-market appeal. Judging by how the New Mario series has changed very little (including reusing music from one game to another, something that is very rare for the series), I don't know that I trust that these changes are being made because they want the best game that they can make (or at least the most interesting game).
This is kind of a stretch, for these reasons:
1. The first level that this can be done in is Bob-omb Battlefield, and they do it because it helps to integrate people into something they have not quite experienced before.
2. That this is the case is due to the fact that there are several stars to be obtained. For instance, you can get the star for retrieving the penguin baby in Cool Cool Mountain, but you cannot get the penguin slide star.
John Wick
Member
No way! 3D World is far better hence the great critical reception. It's got tighter controls and feels far more snappier. There is far more variety and it's more fun and playable. Also it has brilliant multiplayer.
3D Mario > 2D Mario by far
To Far Away Times
Member
Mario 3D Land/World are very pure games. The moment to moment platforming is spectacular.
Mario 64, while amazing and groundbreaking, felt like a sidestep from what the series normally is. Atleast that's how I felt in 1996.
Mario 64, while amazing and groundbreaking, felt like a sidestep from what the series normally is. Atleast that's how I felt in 1996.
I agree with this view. Personally I find the Galaxy games to be a great middle ground between the more open and slow paced 64/Sunshine and the super fast paced 3D__ titles. A lot of people who want exploration reference Galaxy, but I want a more focused experience yet I also see the Galaxy games as the pinnacle (with the 3D__ games not far behind).
On another note, people mention hoping for 64-2 or Sunshine 2 all the time, but unless the dev team behind 3D Mario changes it seems really doubtful to me. Tokyo EPD took over the series after Sunshine and changed the formula starting with Galaxy.
I agree it's the most Mario like and the best gameplay of a 3D Mario. The other 3D Mario games have scale, scope, and exploration, but at the cost of gameplay.
My ideal Mario game would be open & larger like Mario64 / Sunshine but have VERY dense moment to moment gameplay like 3D World / Land.
My ideal Mario game would be open & larger like Mario64 / Sunshine but have VERY dense moment to moment gameplay like 3D World / Land.
Galaxy was boring and 3D World wasn't tho
Chezzymann
Member
Yep. It's the perfect 3D Mario. A true representation of 2D Mario on a 3D plane.
Anecdotal.
I will give you another example. My WiiU is in my mother's house right now, I have a PS4 in the flat I live. Last week she had to take care of 2 of my young cousins for 4 days while their parents were away. As expected, they played with my console, but they were allowed to play with it after dinner. Even if I have a nice Wii U games collection, they only played Mario 3D World, they didn't even try MK8 or Mario Maker. I could check their evolution yesterday, and in only 3 days, about 6 hours, they reached the Theme Park World (World 8).
I have also read in many forums, not only Gaf, but in many Spanish forums, that the game is too easy. And people prefer 3D Marios to be more challenging. Even many previews I read in several websites specified that playing the first two worlds was boring. Fortunately, reviews showed that they loved the game, but they still mentioned that the beginning of the game was too easy, and it didn't get interesting until reaching World 3.
Don't take this wrong, but you are the first person I have ever read mentioning that 3D World is much more difficult than 64. I haven't read all posts from the thread because I don't have time to read all of them, I don't know if you are the only one. But each person is a world, some people find some things easier than others, and other more difficult, and the opposite with other things.
Probably the example I gave about Star 1 in 64 is not the best, but overall, that game is difficult for me, with many stars I had to skip from the first worlds because they were hard to get, while 3D World became difficult once I reached Star World. My record in Mario 64 is 105 stars from 120, while in 3D World I only have one single level to beat, the Champion Road.
Also since people are bringing up Wario Land I have to say WL games > 2d Mario games. WL games are very creative, have a lot of charm and exploration elements. Too bad the series is dead, I'd kill for a proper Wario Land 3ds.
Because 2d Mario sells more, it's very sad but true, it came first hense the large nostalgia base. I honestly doubt we will ever get an open world 3D Mario again with Nintendos current mindset but I can dream..
A Link to the Past
Banned
This is truth
Simbabbad
Member
Different genre from 2D Mario, but Wario Land games are indeed amazing, and Wario Land the Shake Dimension is a masterpiece. I'm so sad that Smash Bros. 4 deleted any reference to Wario Land in Wario's moveset, when the opposite should have been done (so many moves to take inspiration from).
I wouldn't go so far as to say the series is dead, the last one was on Wii, that wasn't such a long time ago. But yeah, it should have had a game on 3DS.
They got the idea from Sunshine that they're too difficult to handle for people, and the entire genre is dead/near dead, at least in its original form.
bobbychalkers
Member
I can get behind this statement
Hale-XF11
Member
yup
I feel strange reading how everyone was so offput by movement and controls in 3D World. I personally thought they were amongst the best in the series, and all that plus the acrobatics from 64/Sunshine would easily be the best I believe 3D Mario could ever play.
And while I prefer big playground maps with missions for 3D Mario over A to B paths, I thought 3D World's level design was excellent, amd probably the most refined in the 3D games up to this point. Also, too easy? Really lol?
Also the Galaxy praise in here is overwhelming, lol. I thought that game was impressive in it's time (and it's sense of scale and cinematics are brilliant), but I find that game and it's sequel pretty clunky and unconventional. Spheroids, star bit shooting and that one-shake-fits-all spinny move are nothing in comparison to 3D World's tight platforming and 64/Sunshine's fluidity.
And while I prefer big playground maps with missions for 3D Mario over A to B paths, I thought 3D World's level design was excellent, amd probably the most refined in the 3D games up to this point. Also, too easy? Really lol?
Did you guys not play the bonus worlds?
Also the Galaxy praise in here is overwhelming, lol. I thought that game was impressive in it's time (and it's sense of scale and cinematics are brilliant), but I find that game and it's sequel pretty clunky and unconventional. Spheroids, star bit shooting and that one-shake-fits-all spinny move are nothing in comparison to 3D World's tight platforming and 64/Sunshine's fluidity.
TheGreatMightyPoo
Banned
3D World is definitely a good game but it lacks the imagination of the best in the series.
As far as execution, it succeeds big time but while it has variety in spades, it rarely wows you.
As far as execution, it succeeds big time but while it has variety in spades, it rarely wows you.