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[Cyan]

I wouldn't expect there to be any school events around Independence Day. Most schools are closed for the summer in July.

 

[Somnid]

The kicker is some of the students they were trying to incite are likely American or aspire to be citizens. Basically there was no legitimate speech, just posturing with symbols nobody understood because they are stupid children.

 

[Lone Wolf]

I was talking about July 4th, but my post does give that idea since I said "give one independence celebration to one and not the other"

But the idea was that they are both national holidays very special for the people celebrating then.

And if half your class celebrates one over the other. you can't just cancel that under the argument that they're not home. I would be hurt.

Yes you can. No obligation to celebrate a fake holiday that is more popular in the US than in these students home country. I do not even disagree with the ruling, as its for student safety, but it is still ridiculous that it had to come to this.

Also this is a great read on Cinco De Mayo

http://www.ocweekly.com/2003-05-08/news/gringo-de-mayo/full/

 

[LaserBuddha]

Yes you can. No obligation to celebrate a fake holiday that is more popular in the US than in these students home country. I do not even disagree with the ruling, as its for student safety, but it is still ridiculous that it had to come to this.

Also this is a great read on Cinco De Mayo

http://www.ocweekly.com/2003-05-08/news/gringo-de-mayo/full/

"fake holiday"

lol

 

[GoldenEye 007]

You know, context really matters here.

If there is tension and violence between some white students and hispanic students, and said white students wear American flag t-shirts for the cinco de mayo celebration, they are clearly trying to start shit or intimidate.

Trying to frame this as innocent students just trying to freely express their patriotism on a random school day is extremely disingenuous, and the arguments you people make about rights collapse as soon as you consider the fact that all schools enforce some level of dress code and frequently make selective decisions like this based on the content of a shirt and the context of the situation.

I wasn't really disagreeing with the decision. Courts have decided this way exactly for the reasons you have posted. Disruptions to the overall educational process are considered to weigh heavier than a kid's right to expression in K-12 settings.

 

[Paskil]

Schools should have wide latitude in setting policy, even in cases where constitutional rights may be infringed. There should be good reason when this occurs, and in this instance, given the history at the school, I think the school taking this stance is perfectly acceptable. Not only that but had they not taken this step and it resulted in the injury of students, the school should be held accountable for not taking steps, such as this.

Also, the're children/minors. Deal with it, kiddos.

 

[Alligatorjandro]

Why would the kids do that on the first place

 

[The Beard]

I used to live in Morgan Hill and I almost transferred to Live Oak High. People drape Mexican flags over the hoods of their cars on the 4th of July. I think there's just a lot of resentment there over the lack of respect for America.

 

[Fj0823]

Yes you can. No obligation to celebrate a fake holiday that is more popular in the US than in these students home country. I do not even disagree with the ruling, as its for student safety, but it is still ridiculous that it had to come to this.

Also this is a great read on Cinco De Mayo

http://www.ocweekly.com/2003-05-08/news/gringo-de-mayo/full/

Thank god you're not a teacher...Basically as teacher you'd be saying "Fuck you, the white kids holidays are real holidays, yours is not, look at this link"
That would end well in a tense enviroment...

That´s like trying to cancel christmas because Jesus was born around July... ):

 

[LaserBuddha]

Thank god you're not a teacher...Basically as teacher you'd be saying "Fuck you, the white kids holidays are real holidays, yours is not, look at this link"
That would end well in a tense enviroment...

I for one wanna know the difference between a fake holiday and a real holiday, with examples.

 

[flkraven]

Its the most pointless "Holiday" in the fact that it celebrates a small victory within a much bigger loss.

Yes you can. No obligation to celebrate a fake holiday that is more popular in the US than in these students home country. I do not even disagree with the ruling, as its for student safety, but it is still ridiculous that it had to come to this.

Also this is a great read on Cinco De Mayo

http://www.ocweekly.com/2003-05-08/news/gringo-de-mayo/full/

Did Cinco de Mayo hurt you in some way? My apologies if it is a sore subject.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

The kicker is some of the students they were trying to incite are likely American or aspire to be citizens. Basically there was no legitimate speech, just posturing with symbols nobody understood because they are stupid children.

Funny you should mention that

a group of Tea Party activists plans to protest the school’s 2010 decision to send students home for wearing the American flag on Cinco de Mayo.

Georgine Scott-Codiga, president of the Gilroy-Morgan Hill Patriots, said the rally will be “peaceful” and that she doesn’t understand the outrage.
“We’re not trying to be divisive of anything; it has nothing to do whatsoever with Cinco De Mayo. The issue here is a freedom-of-speech issue,” she told the board.

 

[Armaros]

Its the most pointless "Holiday" in the fact that it celebrates a small victory within a much bigger loss.

And other holidays are even more pointless and just commerical events for people to busy stuff, and yet we still celebrate them.

 

[hipbabboom]

It's ok to allow hateful messages in school because the message was conveyed using an american flag?

I'm not sure the hatefulness of the gesture is what's being censored here. It feels like this is more related to speech being used to incite panic.... at least that's how I view it though I'm not sure if the line is defined enough to avoid using this precedence improperly.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

Yes you can. No obligation to celebrate a fake holiday that is more popular in the US than in these students home country. I do not even disagree with the ruling, as its for student safety, but it is still ridiculous that it had to come to this.

Also this is a great read on Cinco De Mayo

http://www.ocweekly.com/2003-05-08/news/gringo-de-mayo/full/

Schools celebrate 'fake holiday' events year round, particularly around sports. I have no idea why you're singling out Cinco de Mayo as some fake holiday that deserves exclusion from the school calendar.

 

[thesoapster]

I think this comes down to how much school supervision/responsibility was a factor. "BONG HiTS 4 JESUS" case showed that schools still have some authority in this area.

 

[Fj0823]

I think this comes down to how much school supervision/responsibility was a factor. "BONG HiTS 4 JESUS" case showed that schools still have some authority in this area.

What's this about?

 

[SSPssp]

What's this about?

Its from Morse v Frederick.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morse_v._Frederick

Basically, pro-drug student speech can be suppressed.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

What's this about?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morse_v._Frederick

 

[Enron]

Sounds like a good ruling to me. Kids were trying to be dickheads.

 

[skybald]

Wearing a flag shirt is now inciting violence in a high school. Wtf. Yea, I heard the context. Doesn't matter. Freedom of speech only matters if provocative speech is protected. And everyone shitting on HS kids' rights are the ones contributing to the problem. Rights should be broadened, not diminished.

I was told I had to stand for the pledge and wore provocative clothes to school and found the only people who ever had a problem with my actions were teachers trying to atop something preemptively whereas no kid ever came up to me with a problem.

 

[genjiZERO]

Children, especially those in school, have less rights than adults. First amendment freedoms can be limited in a case like this, and there's a precedent for it.

Doesn't matter that it's the American flag, it's the potential of violence breaking out because it's perceived as a threat.

Exactly.

Now if it was adults I think the courts would have come out the other way even if it could provoke violence. In addition to an American flag it would have to say something like "I came here to punch me some Mexicans" in order to be fighting words.

 

[Fenderputty]

Wearing a flag shirt is now inciting violence in a high school. Wtf. Yea, I heard the context. Doesn't matter. Freedom of speech only matters if provocative speech is protected. And everyone shitting on HS kids' rights are the ones contributing to the problem. Rights should be broadened, not diminished.

I was told I had to stand for the pledge and wore provocative clothes to school and found the only people who ever had a problem with my actions were teachers trying to atop something preemptively whereas no kid ever came up to me with a problem.

Lol maybe you should re-read the context.

 

[royalan]

Remembering my high school years, and all the HUGE fights that would blow up over the dumbest reasons, Im OK with this.

 

[xbhaskarx]

I'm a fan of Tinker vs Des Moines

The court's seven to two decision held that the First Amendment applied to public schools, and that administrators would have to demonstrate constitutionally valid reasons for any specific regulation of speech in the classroom. The court observed, "It can hardly be argued that either students or teachers shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate."

What do all the people defending this think of students protesting a war, silently with black arm bands?

Nothing wrong with wearing a US flag on any day, or a Mexico flag on any day. Yeah most of these kids are d-bags, if they start disrupting school by chanting "USA" or interfering with Cinco de Mayo celebrations or starting fights, suspend their asses.

Fuck the "Bong hits 4 Jesus" decision too... that is total bullshit.
But that was about "a school's important—indeed, perhaps compelling interest in deterring illegal drug use by students"... surely the American flag is not comparable to illegal drugs.
Oh and just a few years later pot is no longer illegal in Alaska where that case originated... can students still not make a reference to marijuana in a banner being held off school property?

 

[Syriel]

Put yourself in the teachers position, you're cancelling the independence day celebration of half your class, but giving one to the other because it is a national holiday.

It probably makes sense to you,Hell it makes a bit of sense to me. but half your class would be left feeling discriminated and angry. Regardless on the nature of the celebration.

And that would work wonders to ease the tension right?

Hispanics feel entitled to celebrate their holidays just like you feel entitled to celebrate July 4th

Cinco de Mayo has -zero- to do with Mexican Independence Day celebrations. It is celebrated in one state in Mexcio and commemorates a battle.

Calling it "Mexican Independence Day" is like calling the anniversary of the Battle of the Alamo "American Independence Day."

You know, context really matters here.

If there is tension and violence between some white students and hispanic students, and said white students wear American flag t-shirts for the cinco de mayo celebration, they are clearly trying to start shit or intimidate.

Trying to frame this as innocent students just trying to freely express their patriotism on a random school day is extremely disingenuous, and the arguments you people make about rights collapse as soon as you consider the fact that all schools enforce some level of dress code and frequently make selective decisions like this based on the content of a shirt and the context of the situation.

If you read the local news stories, you'd know that some of the cited kids have Hispanic names. Way to assume there.

I'm not sure the hatefulness of the gesture is what's being censored here. It feels like this is more related to speech being used to incite panic.... at least that's how I view it though I'm not sure if the line is defined enough to avoid using this precedence improperly.

In a previous year there was an issue. All the news stories from the Bay Area were consistent in saying that absolutely nothing happened that day until the principal called the boys in on their lunch break. No chanting, no protests, no fighting.

No one seemed to give a shit about kids in Old Navy shirts with the American flag on them until the principal sent them home.

Then the media got called (the school district officially disagreed with the principal) and the next day some 200+ kids showed up wearing American flag shirts to protest.

That's what set off the whole chain. All indications are that if they hadn't been told to remove the shirts, absolutely nothing would have happened.

Realistically, schools have much more leeway to clamp down on speech than the government does outside of schools. That is settled law.

This specific case may not have been illegal according to the letter of the law, but in retrospect it was probably a poor hill for the principal to put his flag on (if you'll pardon the pun). If the school had done nothing, it very likely would have just been a normal day.

 

[Regulus Tera]

It still surprises me that more people outside Mexico care more about 5 de Mayo than Mexicans in Mexico. lol

 

[Syriel]

It still surprises me that more people outside Mexico care more about 5 de Mayo than Mexicans in Mexico. lol

It's the same reason Americans re-invented St. Patrick's Day.

Blame capitalism. Both are excuses to drink.

Neither (as celebrated in America) has anything to do with the original culture and how the days were originally honored.

 

[KorrZ]

Better not wish anyone a Merry Christmas at school, you're inciting violence you know!

These kind of things just really annoy the shit out of me. Kids, in the USA being hassled for wearing a shirt with an American flag on it...really?

 

[royalan]

It still surprises me that more people outside Mexico care more about 5 de Mayo than Mexicans in Mexico. lol

Not suprising at all.

It's one thing to be a Mexican in Mexico and surrounded by other Mexicans.

It's another thing to be a Mexican immigrant (or child of Mexican immigrants) living in a country that seems to want to do nothing but shit on you. There being a day meant to honor your culture and heritage would obviously mean more to Mexican Americans.

 

[skybald]

Lol maybe you should re-read the context.

I did. Wearing a shirt is not inciting violence. If there was violence between two groups of kids before, wearing a shirt is still not inciting violence.

 

[Paskil]

This specific case may not have been illegal according to the letter of the law, but in retrospect it was probably a poor hill for the principal to put his flag on (if you'll pardon the pun). If the school had done nothing, it very likely would have just been a normal day.

The article states that there were numerous fights in the past between demographic groups. If mandating that students wear a different shirt at school prevents violence, it should be totally acceptable. Schools have long running lists of forbidden clothing objects that are not allowed. Adding one item for one day of the year to prevent violence is not some earth shattering assault on the first amendment. I have no doubt in my mind that at least one of those kids wore the shirt solely to set shit off, mostly because kids are fucking assholes.

 

[WarMacheen]

It still surprises me that more people outside Mexico care more about 5 de Mayo than Mexicans in Mexico. lol

Simply an excuse to party and drink by most people, nothing more. On May 5th, ask anyone celebrating, why they are celebrating.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Thank god you're not a teacher...Basically as teacher you'd be saying "Fuck you, the white kids holidays are real holidays, yours is not, look at this link"
That would end well in a tense enviroment...

That´s like trying to cancel christmas because Jesus was born around July... ):

Its not a holiday though. And as a teacher I wouldnt promote any holiday in school. That is not why they are in school. Also, what holidays are white kids holidays?

 

[Fenderputty]

I did. Wearing a shirt is not inciting violence. If there was violence between two groups of kids before, wearing a shirt is still not inciting violence.

It can be? You just saying "it's not" does t make it so.

And if the school feels it can be, they're within their rights to try and control It.

 

[The Beard]

Simply an excuse to party and drink by most people, nothing more. On May 5th, ask anyone celebrating, why they are celebrating.

Yes, same with St.Patricks day. The 4th of July has become an excuse to set off fireworks, drink beer, and bbq.

 

[Paskil]

Its not a holiday though. And as a teacher I wouldnt promote any holiday in school. That is not why they are in school. Also, what holidays are white kids holidays?

Every day?

 

[skybald]

It can be? You just saying "it's not" does t make it so.

And if the school feels it can be, they're within their rights to try and control It.

The problem is then with the people who would act violently against a person wearing a shirt, even if the shirt is offensive.

Instead of grasping at the teachable moment in this case, the school acted without thought and sent kids home. If there is such a problem between two groups of kids, they should have a mediated meeting to discuss each others concerns and talk and debate. Suppressing speech is not the way to go, I think.

 

[KHarvey16]

Its not a holiday though. And as a teacher I wouldnt promote any holiday in school. That is not why they are in school. Also, what holidays are white kids holidays?

Lone wolf, Holiday Decider.

 

[royalan]

Simply an excuse to party and drink by most people, nothing more. On May 5th, ask anyone celebrating, why they are celebrating.

Yes, same with St.Patricks day. The 4th of July has become an excuse to set off fireworks, drink beer, and bbq.

This isn't true if you live in a border state.

Growing up in LA, there are parties and heritage festivals all over the city on Cinco de Mayo (and that weekend).

Yeah, a lot of people also drink. But growing up in a city with such a significant Mexican population, the day is about a lot more than tequila.

 

[antonz]

Bullshit response from the court. Not even a real holiday in the first place. Its some local celebration in a few cities in Mexico while the rest of the country gives no shit.

That Beer money though suddenly makes it matter in another country

 

[xbhaskarx]

Bullshit response from the court. Not even a real holiday in the first place. Its some local celebration in a few cities in Mexico while the rest of the country gives no shit.

That Beer money though suddenly makes it matter in another country

While I agree that it's bullshit, how "real" or "not real" the holiday is seems totally irrelevant, not sure why people keep bringing that up...

 

[norm9]

But growing up in a city with such a significant Mexican population, the day is about a lot more than tequila.

Its mostly about ice cold Tecates in a can.

 

[Lone Wolf]

4th of July.

St. Patrick's Day

Easter.

Labor Day (debatable)

Any of the President's Days.

Wrong, everyday is a white holiday in the glorious white race. Paskil says so.

 

[The Beard]

This isn't true if you live in a border state.

Growing up in LA, there are parties and heritage festivals all over the city on Cinco de Mayo (and that weekend).

Yeah, a lot of people also drink. But growing up in a city with such a significant Mexican population, the day is about a lot more than tequila.

I do, I live in CA. My HS was at least %50 Mexican. People put Mexican flags on their cars, listen to Mariachi music, and drink. The day isn't much more than beer and Mexican flag day here. I'm sure LA is a different story though.

 

[Barajas_201]

It still surprises me that more people outside Mexico care more about 5 de Mayo than Mexicans in Mexico. lol

That's not even remotely true. To begin with, there is no school that day because it's an actually holiday not a "fake" holiday, secondly, there are military parades in every state capital where teenagers in the process of completing their military service have to participate, and third, in the state of Puebla (where the battle took place) not only is there a military parade, but also an reenactment of the battle with Mexican and French uniforms of the era. You call that not caring? The meaning of Cinco de Mayo has being distorted in the U.S. to the point of it just being a day where they reenforce Mexican stereotypes and get drunk. In Mexico, Cinco de Mayo is a day of pride and respect for the men who died for the country in the past. In the U.S., its a day to put on a sombrero and get drunk. I hate it.

Simply an excuse to party and drink by most people, nothing more. On May 5th, ask anyone celebrating, why they are celebrating.

Exactly. I bet 90% of the people who go to this parties have no idea what Cinco de Mayo represents.

 

[royalan]

I do, I live in CA. My HS was at least %50 Mexican. People put Mexican flags on their cars, listen to Mariachi music, and drink. The day isn't much more than beer and Mexican flag day here. I'm sure LA is a different story though.

Oh don't get me wrong, that's a lot of what happens in LA. I'm just saying that there more to it than that for a lot of people. I mean, just look at these students. Clearly, it's not about the drinking to them.

 

[Fenderputty]

Let's be real here. The concept that, "people just want the day off to get drunk" is applicable to every holiday, including Veterans Day.

Why this keeps getting brought up as though it has any relevance in this case is beyond me.

 

[Syriel]

The article was an interesting read, but I wasn't sure if you were being sarcastic so I answered truthfully off the top of my head. 4th of July is the easy American holiday, but I would argue that Easter is a "white" holidays, as is St. Patrick's Day (though we don't get that off), as well as many of the President's holidays (though that could also be American).

4th of July and President's day holidays are wholly American. Not really ascribable to a "race."

Easter is a Christian religious holiday. And if you think that Mexico doesn't celebrate Catholic holidays...

Easter is a bigger deal in Mexico than it is in the US.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

Bullshit response from the court. Not even a real holiday in the first place. Its some local celebration in a few cities in Mexico while the rest of the country gives no shit.

That Beer money though suddenly makes it matter in another country

We're still on this 'not a real holiday' bullshit I see.