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[whitehawk]

Install Far Cry 4 and report back.

My experience comes from spending time with the 1 Pro (highest end config, whatever that was) and the 2 Pro and the 3 Pro.

I am surprised at the reasonably large fanbase the Surface has here. In the larger tech world, it is considered a complete joke. A strong contrast here.

I guess in the Tech world. I'm a music student so laying the surface down flat and taking notes is great. The only thing I don't like about it: It's hard to use on your lap as full laptop, the touchpad is iffy, and the appstore is very lackluster. You can download full windows apps, but there are times I'd rather use it as a tablet and that makes it hard.

 

[enMTW]

I guess in the Tech world. I'm a music student so laying the surface down flat and taking notes is great. The only thing I don't like about it: It's hard to use on your lap as full laptop, the touchpad is iffy, and the appstore is very lackluster. You can download full windows apps, but there are times I'd rather use it as a tablet and that makes it hard.

Yes yes yes. I like the concept - having access to the full power of Windows in a tablet-sized device - but the execution is lacking.

I would love to see a traditional laptop from the Surface team, though. That would be exciting.

 

[bomblord1]

It's truly not. I have spent time with every major Windows laptop. I had a Surface 3 Pro loaner unit. I just sent back the new XPS 13.

Generally, no. Most laptops under, say, $600, have some thing wrong with them that rules them out for day to day use. Maybe the thing doesn't come with an SSD. Maybe it has soldered ram and not a lot of it. Usually it is throttling way too early, under minimal load.

Windows 8 is not easy to navigate and use - it's a train wreck. It's also not touch friendly - it has two separate UIs, one with (pretty bad, IMO) affordances for touch and one with none.

There is not a single laptop in the world that compares favorably to a Dell i5 box you picked up for $400 at Staples. The big problem is throttling (again!) but heat generation comes in a close second. Both the Blade and the 15" MBPR pump out a bunch of heat directly on your fingers as you push the thing hard. That doesn't make for a pleasant experience.

Laptops are, as they have always been, the wrong computer for most people. Being able to move the machine around your house doesn't make up for the inherent problems the form factor presents. Even when Intel gets fanless CPUs up to current-day i7 levels of performance, you still have a smallish screen in comparison to the 27" monsters that are typical on any desktop of reasonable quality.

Windows 8.1 is not a trainwreck at all I've worked in IT and have installed it on hundreds of machines I've never ran into any navigation issues. I've used it on desktops, all in ones, laptops, and desktops. It also intelligently switches between metro and desktop mode at startup so you don't have to jump back and forth between the two UI's. The navigation is as simple as windows 7 and in some cases easier because of things like the charm bar. I've had people from all experience ranges use it without issue. Even those who have issues with windows 7.

I'm not sure what laptops you use but I've never run into these major throttling problems with any laptop I've used which have included business series Lenovo laptops, Dell business series laptops, HP's envy line, Macbook Pro's, Dell's Inspiron Line, Alienware's m11x line, eeePC netbooks, and others.

I'm also not sure what you mean by "something wrong with them". An average consumer could go day to day for web browsing, word processing, entertainment, and other day to day tasks on a $600 without ever running into an issue. A lock of a SSD, soddered ram, or whatever else you're talking about are far from issues they have no real impact on the average user.

Also there are plenty of laptops that would outperform a random i5 dell from staples albeit at a higher price point that's just hyperbole.

Finally, who needs a 27" monster and why can't you plug the laptop into your 27" monitor?

 

[enMTW]

Windows 8.1 is not a trainwreck at all I've worked in IT and have installed it on hundreds of machines I've never ran into any navigation issues. I've used it on desktops, all in ones, laptops, and desktops. It also intelligently switches between metro and desktop mode at startup so you don't have to jump back and forth between the two UI's. The navigation is as simple as windows 7 and in some cases easier because of things like the charm bar.

I'm not sure what laptops you use but I've never run into these major throttling problems with any laptop I've used which have included business series Lenovo laptops, Dell business series laptops, HP's envy line, Macbook Pro's, Dell's Inspiron Line, Alienware's m11x line, eeePC netbooks, and others.

I'm also not sure what you mean by "something wrong with them". An average consumer could go day to day for web browsing, word processing, entertainment, and other day to day tasks on a $600 without ever running into an issue. A lock of a SSD, soddered ram, or whatever else you're talking about are far from issues they have no real impact on the average user.

Also there are plenty of laptops that would outperform a random i5 dell from staples albeit at a higher price point that's just hyperbole.

Finally, who needs a 27" monster and why can't you plug the laptop into your 27" monitor?

I'm not interested in how many deployments of the OS you've done. The consensus, in the tech world, is that it is a train wreck. There is near-universal agreement on this among critics, the press, and the actual world of Windows users. It is no where near as 'simple' as Windows 7, or as good.

I've detailed what I think, why I think it, explained the reasoning behind it. You disregarded all of it and responded by repeating what you said earlier and adding lots of fallacies about 'the average user' where you demonstrate both a lack of knowledge about what people want and disrespect for people you consider to be 'average'. I think we're done here.

I will respond to one point in your post, though:

"Also there are plenty of laptops that would outperform a random i5 dell from staples albeit at a higher price point that's just hyperbole.".

False, straight up. No way around it. Desktop chips are faster than mobile chips. Desktop chips don't throttle down to nothing under load as they have more thermal headroom. A slower desktop chip is more useful than a mobile chip as the OS doesn't become unusable every time a flash video plays.

What is this 'larger tech world' I've worked in an IT dept the dept purchased surface pro's and my boss (network admin of the place I worked) carried around a pro 1 with him religiously it was an indispensable tool for things like network troubleshooting and updating things on the fly. Tech review sites all have the pro 3 reviewed highly favorably.

Umm, it's the world around you? Most sites didn't review the Surface 3 at all. It's not that interesting of a product and came out at a bad time. There was a general degree of delight at MS shoving an honest-to-god i7 in that thing but no one actually enjoys using it - flimsy keyboard, inability to actually use it in your lap, very top heavy - etc. There is no one who prefers it to, say, a similarly priced Mac running Windows. This is because it is - shocker - not as good.

It's also not as good as the new XPS 13 (which everyone should get, if you can tolerate soldered ram and a weird webcam placement).

 

[Scipio]

Pro-tip, use pen and paper to take notes. Better for concentration, but at least with the Surface Pro, it's better than typing your notes.

 

[legacyzero]

And Emulators. (If you're into that scene).

SUPER smooth.

 

[CosmicQueso]

Install Far Cry 4 and report back.

Hey my Taurus can't go 0 to 80 as fast as a Porsche. What a piece of garbage.

 

[StudioTan]

I'm not interested in how many deployments of the OS you've done. The consensus, in the tech world, is that it is a train wreck. There is near-universal agreement on this among critics, the press, and the actual world of Windows users. It is no where near as 'simple' as Windows 7, or as good.

I've detailed what I think, why I think it, explained the reasoning behind it. You disregarded all of it and responded by repeating what you said earlier and adding lots of fallacies about 'the average user' where you demonstrate both a lack of knowledge about what people want and disrespect for people you consider to be 'average'. I think we're done here.

I will respond to one point in your post, though:

"Also there are plenty of laptops that would outperform a random i5 dell from staples albeit at a higher price point that's just hyperbole.".

False, straight up. No way around it. Desktop chips are faster than mobile chips. Desktop chips don't throttle down to nothing under load as they have more thermal headroom. A slower desktop chip is more useful than a mobile chip as the OS doesn't become unusable every time a flash video plays.



Umm, it's the world around you? Most sites didn't review the Surface 3 at all. It's not that interesting of a product and came out at a bad time. There was a general degree of delight at MS shoving an honest-to-god i7 in that thing but no one actually enjoys using it - flimsy keyboard, inability to actually use it in your lap, very top heavy - etc. There is no one who prefers it to, say, a similarly priced Mac running Windows. This is because it is - shocker - not as good.

It's also not as good as the new XPS 13 (which everyone should get, if you can tolerate soldered ram and a weird webcam placement).

Is this national talking out of my ass day? What the hell are you going on about?

 

[bomblord1]

I'm not interested in how many deployments of the OS you've done. The consensus, in the tech world, is that it is a train wreck. There is near-universal agreement on this. It is no where near as 'simple' as Windows 7, or as good.

I've detailed what I think, why I think it, explained the reasoning behind it. You disregarded all of it and responded by repeating what you said earlier and lots of fallacies about 'the average user' where you demonstrate both a lack of knowledge about what people want and disrespect for people you consider to be 'average'. I think we're done here.

I will respond to one point in your post, though:

"Also there are plenty of laptops that would outperform a random i5 dell from staples albeit at a higher price point that's just hyperbole.".

False, straight up. No way around it. Desktop chips are faster than mobile chips. Desktop chips don't throttle down to nothing under load as they have more thermal headroom.

I7 4980HQ is a mobile CPU
I5 4430 is a common CPU is prebuilt machines.

 

[enMTW]

Hey my Taurus can't go 0 to 80 as fast as a Porsche. What a piece of garbage.

'Hey, my Taurus costs as much as a 911 but isn't as fast or good in any way that can be quantified. What a piece of garbage."

I7 4980HQ is a mobile CPU
I5 4430 is a common CPU is prebuilt machines.

One of these things throttles performance early and hard. One of these does not. you don't get that in a benchmark, it's something you see in the real world.

 

[bomblord1]

'Hey, my Taurus costs as much as a 911 but isn't as fast or good in any way that can be quantified. What a piece of garbage."



One of these things throttles performance early and hard. One of these does not.

Not if the laptop is built properly.

 

[enMTW]

Not if the laptop is built properly.

The only a laptop can avoid throttling performance of the processor is if they build in as much headroom as a typical desktop, which would make for a very large laptop indeed. Would be funny to see though!

Keep in mind that this is a problem that even Apple has not been able to solve. The 15" MBPR suffers from it mightily, especially on the GPU end of things.

 

[bomblord1]

The only a laptop can avoid throttling performance of the processor is if they build in as much headroom as a typical desktop, which would make for a very large laptop indeed. Would be funny to see though!

Keep in mind that this is a problem that even Apple has not been able to solve. The 15" MBPR suffers from it mightily, especially on the GPU end of things.

Laptop CPU's tend to run significantly cooler than their desktop counterparts. So no you wouldn't need something the size of a desktop.

 

[f0lken]

I didn't know my surface became unusable when playing a flash video, good thing someone on the internet corrected me, I guess photoshopping images with dozens of layers, lightroom, several tabs on my browser, several background processes and playing video was an halucinnation on my part

 

[legacyzero]

Install Far Cry 4 and report back.

My experience comes from spending time with the 1 Pro (highest end config, whatever that was) and the 2 Pro and the 3 Pro.

I am surprised at the reasonably large fanbase the Surface has here. In the larger tech world, it is considered a complete joke. A strong contrast here.

I will say one good thing about the Surface - as the processor is not under the keyboard, you don't have to worry about it heating the keyboard to a point where it is uncomfortable to touch.

Really dude? It's not a fucking compact gaming rig LOL. And I wager that you could probably crank it down ALLLLL of the setting, and get an avg fps that you might be able to tolerate based on your level of patience.

Still, I find it unreasonable to bring the "But can it run Crysis?" argument to the table for this.

 

[enMTW]

Laptop CPU's tend to run significantly cooler than their desktop counterparts.

.....and? They still suffer from what I have been describing for 2 pages now. It's not a myth or something, go grab a nice thin-and-light laptop and crank the processor and watch the performance fall off a cliff as the temperature rises.

Really dude? It's not a fucking compact gaming rig LOL. And I wager that you could probably crank it down ALLLLL of the setting, and get an avg fps that you might be able to tolerate based on your level of patience.

Still, I find it unreasonable to bring the "But can it run Crysis?" argument to the table for this.

The whole point of my argument is that there is no point to pay real money for a machine if the goal is 'light gaming'. The OP seems to want a nice Windows laptop, but the two of them that exist don't try to be tablets.

 

[bomblord1]

.....and? They still suffer from what I have been describing for 2 pages now. It's not a myth or something, go grab a nice thin-and-light laptop and crank the processor and watch the performance fall off a cliff as the temperature rises.

Why would I grab a thin and light laptop for heavy workloads?

Edit
Sorry, I'm out this is getting ridiculous.

 

[PensOwl]

I don't think anyone's going to win an argument against the Surface Pro throttling.

That said, it's an excellent note taking machine. It's getting a little ridiculous in here though, who the hell would think people are going to try to run Far Cry 4 on a Surface? Certainly not anyone's who read the title of the thread.

 

[enMTW]

Why would I grab a thin and light laptop for heavy workloads?

Edit
Sorry, I'm out this is getting ridiculous.

That isn't an answer to the question. You, admittedly, are interested in playing video games with this computer. That is a workload of size where you will experience lots of throttling. It doesn't matter if you are playing DOTA or if you are playing Minecraft.

 

[bomblord1]

That isn't an answer to the question. You, admittedly, are interested in playing video games with this computer. That is a workload of size where you will experience lots of throttling.

Lighter gaming yes. I don't intend to run far cry 4 on it I have a desktop at home for that.

 

[Starviper]

Is there anything similar to the Pro3 that is recommended? I've been tempted to get one for light gaming/streaming/drawing/etc, but they are a bit pricy.

 

[Cynar]

I'd love to hear how capable one is for something like Hearthstone or Binding of Isaac

The baytrail tabs work fine for Hearthstone so this would be no problem

 

[YuriLowell]

We have had so many problems and RMA's with the SP3's at work I cannot recommend them to anyone.

 

[bomblord1]

Is there anything similar to the Pro3 that is recommended? I've been tempted to get one for light gaming/streaming/drawing/etc, but they are a bit pricy.

What price point are you looking at and what do you intend to use it for?

 

[enMTW]

Lighter gaming yes. I don't intend to run far cry 4 on it I have a desktop at home for that.

Well, what do you consider to be light? How do you define light? I would consider League to be a 'light' game in terms of performance demands but it still gives me a hard time at good settings on the current-gen MBPR.

I'd love to hear how capable one is for something like Hearthstone or Binding of Isaac

Runs fine, though Heartstone is more demanding than the later.

 

[legacyzero]

The whole point of my argument is that there is no point to pay real money for a machine if the goal is 'light gaming'. The OP seems to want a nice Windows laptop, but the two of them that exist don't try to be tablets.

So?

That's ONE of the goals. Light gaming was ONE of my goals when I bought it. Why the fuck CANT I use it for light gaming? And Digital art? Surfin GAF? How about THREE OF THOSE AT THE SAME FUCKING TIME?!

You should widen your perspective a bit.

Do not respond to me with reaction GIFs and bold, underlined text. Unless you don't want to be taken seriously or something.

You argument wasn't to be taken that seriously in the first place. Just helping you with some perspective

 

[enMTW]

So?

That's ONE of the goals. Light gaming was ONE of my goals when I bought it. Why the fuck CANT I use it for light gaming? And Digital art? Surfin GAF? How about THREE OF THOSE AT THE SAME FUCKING TIME?!


You should widen your perspective a bit.

Do not respond to me with reaction GIFs and bold, underlined text. Unless you don't want to be taken seriously or something.

 

[bomblord1]

Well, what do you consider to be light? How do you define light? I would consider League to be a 'light' game in terms of performance demands but it still gives me a hard time at good settings on the current-gen MBPR.



Runs fine, though Heartstone is more demanding than the later.

Yes, I would consider league light gaming on low @ 720p with fps limited to 30. The intel atom runs league so I would hope an i5 could.

 

[enMTW]

Yes, I would consider league light gaming on low @ 720p with fps limited to 30. The intel atom runs league so I would hope an i5 could.

Yeah, if you drop it to low - which is a /terrible/ experience. League is the last game you want to limit the frame rate on, due to its hyper competitive nature.

 

[bomblord1]

Yeah, if you drop it to low - which is a /terrible/ experience. League is the last game you want to limit the frame rate on, due to its hyper competitive nature.

Doesn't bug me honestly.

 

[Cynar]

Install Far Cry 4 and report back.

My experience comes from spending time with the 1 Pro (highest end config, whatever that was) and the 2 Pro and the 3 Pro.

I am surprised at the reasonably large fanbase the Surface has here. In the larger tech world, it is considered a complete joke. A strong contrast here.

I will say one good thing about the Surface - as the processor is not under the keyboard, you don't have to worry about it heating the keyboard to a point where it is uncomfortable to touch.

You've got to be kidding me with that attitude. I see lots of excitement around it. Do you work at a retail apple store or something?

 

[enMTW]

Doesn't bug me honestly.

If it doesn't bug you that's cool

All about what your priorities are and what you are happy with. Go for it!

You've got to be kidding me with that attitude. I see lots of excitement around it. Do you work at a retail apple store or something?

I've seen next to none, as demonstrated by both the (lack thereof) sales and the general thrashing the product has been getting by the press since it's introduction.

No, I do not work in retail, Apple or otherwise.

 

[StudioTan]

I don't think anyone's going to win an argument against the Surface Pro throttling.

That said, it's an excellent note taking machine. It's getting a little ridiculous in here though, who the hell would think people are going to try to run Far Cry 4 on a Surface? Certainly not anyone's who read the title of the thread.

Why would you buy a tablet if it couldn't play Far Cry 4? That's just science.

 

[f0lken]

Yes, I would consider league light gaming on low @ 720p with fps limited to 30. The intel atom runs league so I would hope an i5 could.

He thinks playing a flash video will render your Surface unusable so playing anything beyond Doom would probably make it explode

 

[enMTW]

He thinks playing a flash video will render your Surface unusable so playing anything beyond Doom would probably make it explode

I have seen, first hand, the Surface 2 pump out heat and generally be unpleasant when given a 1080p flash video to play. It's real. It happens. I think most people are unaware of how bad things are on laptops at the moment.

 

[Grief.exe]

I've seen next to none, as demonstrated by both the (lack thereof) sales and the general thrashing the product has been getting by the press since it's introduction.

No, I do not work in retail, Apple or otherwise.

The Surface line now generates a billion dollars per quarter for Microsoft

http://www.neowin.net/news/surface-blossoms-into-a-billion-dollar-buisness-for-microsoft

Only,looks to improve as newer generation of processors are optimized for mobile use and with Windows 10 release.

 

[Diablohead]

He thinks playing a flash video will render your Surface unusable so playing anything beyond Doom would probably make it explode

Funny thing is that flash video is close to doing that anyway lol, my windows 8.1 tablet struggles with flash at 720p but html5 video and vlc are perfect.

 

[f0lken]

I have seen, first hand, the Surface 2 pump out heat and generally be unpleasant when given a 1080p flash video to play. It's real. It happens. I think most people are unaware of how bad things are on laptops at the moment.

Counterpoint: I have one (the first model) and not a single time it has happened to me

Edit: I assume we are talking about the Pro models right

 

[legacyzero]

I have seen, first hand, the Surface 2 pump out heat and generally be unpleasant when given a 1080p flash video to play. It's real. It happens. I think most people are unaware of how bad things are on laptops at the moment.

CPU's generate heat. Not a new thing.

The SP3 has a nice fan inside and everything (Not sure about the SP2).

Counterpoint: I have one (the first model) and not a single time it has happened to me

My SP3 can get a bit warm at times, especially during large image making/ editing.

 

[enMTW]

The Surface line now generates a billion dollars per quarter for Microsoft

http://www.neowin.net/news/surface-blossoms-into-a-billion-dollar-buisness-for-microsoft

Seems more impressive as a headline than in reality. What's the profit like? We know the sales volume is low. Have they made back what they wrote off yet?

No doubt it could be a profitable little lifestyle business, but it's no Goliath.

Counterpoint: I have one (the first model) and not a single time it has happened to me

I am happy for you, as it does suck when it does happen.

 

[Cute Dragon Here]

Seems more impressive as a headline than in reality. What's the profit like? We know the sales volume is low. Have they made back what they wrote off yet?

No doubt it could be a profitable little life style business, but it's no Goliath.

Considering that it's been slightly over two years since the first Surfaces came out, I guess it's quite the turnaround from $0 to $1 billion per quarter in revenue. When you look at things from a wider view, well, things kind of slot in nicely.

I want a Surface Pro 3 for other purposes (note-taking and drawing with an active stylus), and the CPU/GPU combination being fast enough to handle the kind of games that I want to play on the go is just a nice bonus on top of what I want out of it, really.

 

[enMTW]

Considering that it's been slightly over two years since the first Surfaces came out, I guess it's quite the turnaround from $0 to $1 billion per quarter in revenue. When you look at things from a wider view, well, things kind of slot in nicely.

I want a Surface Pro 3 for other purposes (note-taking and drawing with an active stylus), and the CPU/GPU combination being fast enough to handle the kind of games that I want to play on the go is just a nice bonus on top of what I want out of it, really.

It feels much more viable than it did at launch, I agree. I can't see yet where growth is, if it has peaked, if we're seeing the 2x, 3x multiples (of existing unit sales) I would want to see on a new product category coming up on Gen 4.

Yeah, nothing else does that (note-taking/drawing) well.

 

[Grief.exe]

Seems more impressive as a headline than in reality. What's the profit like? We know the sales volume is low. Have they made back what they wrote off yet?

No doubt it could be a profitable little lifestyle business, but it's no Goliath.

According to this source, looks like 100 million and 200 million the last two quarters, respectively.

Not too shabby for a new product that hit some major speed bumps initially.

 

[PensOwl]

Using sites like twitch will make the cpu of any laptop whine, which is why livestreamer comes heavily recommended. If you want to engage in twitch chat, you can have livestreamer up with the chat open and the video paused, works excellently.

 

[enMTW]

According to this source, loks like 100 million and 200 million the last two quarters, respectively.

Not too shabby for a new product that hit some major speed bumps initially.

Not too shabby. I would imagine the answer is no, but I'll ask anyway: has MS released total unit sales? Preferably in a chart with the prior years next to them?

MS seemed to be playing Samsung's game with the release of 'shippments' and nothing else last time I looked.

 

[Cute Dragon Here]

It feels much more viable than it did at launch, I agree. I can't see yet where growth is, if it has peaked, if we're seeing the 2x, 3x multiples (of existing unit sales) I would want to see on a new product category coming up on Gen 4.

Yeah, nothing else does that (note-taking/drawing) well.

Mmm hmm.

I'm just kind of on the fence on buying a Surface Pro 3 right now, though, despite being able to afford to buy two in a single go with surplus money. I keep having a nagging feeling that an SP4 is due very soon. I think the SP3 was announced around this time frame last year, no?

 

[Caayn]

Are the heat/noise issues from the initial batch of the Pro 3 still there? Been tempted to get one as a programming and note taking machine on the go.

 

[bomblord1]

Are the heat issues from the initial batch of the Pro 3 still there? Been tempted to get one as a programming and note taking machine on the go.

A firmware updated increased the time it took to throttle (as it was throttling prematurely) under heavy load but it is still there. If all you're doing is not taking and programming though you'll probably never see it.

 

[enMTW]

Mmm hmm.

I'm just kind of on the fence on buying a Surface Pro 3 right now, though, despite being able to afford to buy two in a single go with surplus money. I keep having a nagging feeling that an SP4 is due very soon. I think the SP3 was announced around this time frame last year, no?

SP3 didn't come out until June. Not in the immediate future but not that far from now. Announcement was in May..

A firmware updated increased the time it took to throttle (as it was throttling prematurely) under heavy load but it is still there. If all you're doing is not taking and programming though you'll probably never see it.

I was seeing it when applying Windows updates, which, admittedly, are not exactly a low CPU load kind of job.

 

[enMTW]

edit: double post