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[Shorty]

To back up my argument on oppression, here's a well-known case in Toronto of a teenage muslim girl who was actually killed by her father and brother simply because she chose to dress in a western style:

http://www.torontolife.com/features/girl-interrupted/

I could provide you with countless links to cases where dads kill their families in their sleep, moms dismember their newborns and store them in fridges and teenager massacre their own brothers and sisters.

The only difference? In most cases the media calls it a family tragedy. If it's muslim related they call them honour killings.

What people like you do not understand is that there are bad people in every race, religion and nationality.

 

[Hesemonni]

To back up my argument on oppression, here's a well-known case in Toronto of a teenage muslim girl who was actually killed by her father and brother simply because she chose to dress in a western style:

http://www.torontolife.com/features/girl-interrupted/

Isolated case argument in .. 3 .. 2 .. 1 ...

 

[Nesotenso]

Minarets are ugly and fuck up the skyline.

There are a grand total of 4 Minarets in Switzerland according to wiki and correct me if I am wrong, none are used to give the call to prayer just like in the States.

As to whether minarets architecturally or aesthetically pleasing, lets just say we disagree on that.

 

[kamorra]

I can't decide whether to sigh or yawn.

No surprise here.

 

[water_wendi]

Now find me ten percent.

This is the problem with arguing with the religious. They believe in faith and not facts or reality.

 

[Speedymanic]

i oppose all religions but Islam is easily the most offensive in terms of human rights abuse. And i will continue to oppose any religious practices that i see as direct opposition to the basic human ideals i value.

Come now, worse than the Church refusing to advocate the use condoms for years and even now are less than keen on outright endorsing it as a way to help prevent HIV/Aids spreading in Africa/other religious regions where the virus is highly prevalent?

I see that as the much bigger human rights abuse, essentially condemning millions to live their lives with HIV/AIDS and die in what can only be an incredibly painful and horrific way, but that's not to say Islam doesn't have its own human rights abuses...

 

[Buba Big Guns]

To back up my argument on oppression, here's a well-known case in Toronto of a teenage muslim girl who was actually killed by her father and brother simply because she chose to dress in a western style:

http://www.torontolife.com/features/girl-interrupted/

So one asshole represents an entire group of people...cant believe we're having this argument in 2011...

Im sure the hijabi girl sitting in the her office adjacent to mine, living by herself (in Toronto), will tremble in fear of her father in Pakistan if she stops wearing her hijab.

 

[Azih]

This is the problem with arguing with the religious. They believe in faith and not facts or reality.

Would you care to respond to Shorty's rebuttal? It's post 101.

Muslims are unique in that anything bad that any muslim does seems to get blamed on Islam. It's ridiculous.

 

[Diprosalic]

There are a grand total of 4 Minarets in Switzerland according to wiki and correct me if I am wrong, none are used to give the call to prayer just like in the States.

As to whether minarets architecturally or aesthetically pleasing, lets just say we disagree on that.

this is one of them:

totally fucking up the skyline.

 

[Lamel]

This is the problem with arguing with the religious. They believe in faith and not facts or reality.

In that article it says around 5000 honor killings occur in a year around the world, which is absolutely HORRIBLE, let me just make that clear. I am extremely against that.

However I think people blow things out of proportion as well, in this thread people are talking like every Muslim family would murder their daughters if they refuse to wear a Hijab. 5000 is .0005 of the muslim population around the world.

 

[Count Dookkake]

Come now, worse than the Church refusing to advocate the use condoms for years and even now are less than keen on outright endorsing it as a way to help prevent HIV/Aids spreading in Africa/other religious regions where the virus is highly prevalent?

I see that as the much bigger human rights abuse, essentially condemning millions to live their lives with HIV/AIDS and die in what can only be an incredibly painful and horrific way, but that's not to say Islam doesn't have its own human rights abuses...

What is Islam's stance on the unfettered distribution of condoms?

 

[lunarworks]

By younger women, do you mean children? I mean as a child you listen to your parents anyway. But what's the difference between a woman who is 21 and a woman in her 40s when it comes to what she wants to dress like.

Children, teens, women in their 20s.

When you're young, you want to wear what you want. You want freedom. Older women tend to dress more conservatively in most cultures, and are set in their ways, so using a 40 year old woman as an example is not the best idea.

I don't know what point you're trying to make...many things are forbidden by families for young people. Now if you're saying that Muslim families forbid their daughters to wear something western yet reasonable, that's usually pretty extreme. This whole clothing argument varies by culture too tbh.

Around here you see little muslim girls running around all happy in shirts and pants, with their hair flowing free in the air. The moment they reach a certain age, they're suddenly wearing dour hijabs and skirts, and look all sullen and depressed. I find it hard to believe that they choose to dress that way.

 

[water_wendi]

Come now, worse than the Church refusing to advocate the use condoms for years and even now are less than keen on outright endorsing it as a way to help prevent HIV/Aids spreading in Africa/other religious regions where the virus is highly prevalent?

I see that as the much bigger human rights abuse, essentially condemning millions to live their lives with HIV/AIDS and die in what can only be an incredibly painful and horrific way, but that's not to say Islam doesn't have its own human rights abuses...

i will agree that the Catholic Church is a close second. Fundamentalist Christians are in third place. All are abhorrent.

 

[WARCOCK]

Recession.

/Thread imo




Cynical liberal wisdom? I speculate that the traditional enlightenment conception of freedom cannot be wholly upheld through judicial means. Social pressure is exerted through normative values expressed by the majority in a democratic system. The values of the enlightenment come at a price.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orv1kmkiEpk&t=1m16s

Dunno! I'm pretty stupid, take my musings with a grain of salt.

 

[Kurtofan]

Immigrants are second class citizens anyway (can't vote, right to work depends on your foreign status etc.). I don't understand his post either.

This is basically what people who buy into the ever populist "immigrants have it better than me" believe.

 

[Verendus]

What is Islam's stance on the unfettered distribution of condoms?

Either you're smart, or very dumb by asking this question.

I'm genuinely curious to find out how it's responded to and where you take it. I'm betting on the latter by the way.

 

[Lamel]

Children, teens, women in their 20s.

When you're young, you want to wear what you want. You want freedom. Older women tend to dress more conservatively in most cultures, and are set in their ways, so using a 40 year old woman as an example is not the best idea.


Around here you see little muslim girls running around all happy in shirts and pants, with their hair flowing free in the air. The moment they reach a certain age, they're suddenly wearing dour hijabs and skirts, and look all sullen and depressed. I find it hard to believe that they choose to dress that way.

Well when it comes to children parents can control whatever the hell they want. I obviously can't speak for others, but in my family (of Pakistani origin), we don't impose the Hijab rule...yet some girls still choose to wear it. For example I doubt my sister will wear one, but we're alright with that. My mom was given the same choice when she became of age...so yeah.

Where do you live exactly?

 

[lunarworks]

So one asshole represents an entire group of people...cant believe we're having this argument in 2011...

No, but it's a peek at the actual intimidation that goes on behind closed doors. That case is an extreme example, but don't pretend it doesn't exist.

Im sure the hijabi girl sitting in the her office adjacent to mine, living by herself (in Toronto), will tremble in fear of her father in Pakistan if she stops wearing her hijab.

Not all women are forced to wear them. Some choose to.


The big problem is determining who is forced, and who chooses. I'd call it a near impossible task.

 

[Ashes]

This is the problem with arguing with the religious. They believe in faith and not facts or reality.

Oh facts and reality.... or opinions? Here's some reading material:

""Muslim communities in this country are doing their damnedest to try to come to terms with their neighbours to try to integrate and they're doing their best to try to develop an idea of Islam that is compatible with living in a modern liberal democracy."


Date: 19 june 2011. Original Source: Daily Telegraph interview.

 

[Count Dookkake]

Either you're smart, or very dumb by asking this question.

I'm genuinely curious to find out how it's responded to and where you take it. I'm betting on the latter by the way.

A question does not make one dumb. It usually does the opposite.

Dummy.

 

[lunarworks]

Well when it comes to children parents can control whatever the hell they want. I obviously can't speak for others, but in my family (of Pakistani origin), we don't impose the Hijab rule...yet some girls still choose to wear it. For example I doubt my sister will wear one, but we're alright with that. My mom was given the same choice when she became of age...so yeah.

Where do you live exactly?

Your family is a moderate family. I had a good friend who also came from a moderate family, that didn't care how their kids dressed. It's the hardline families that are the problem. They're usually "fresh off the boat", as they say.

I currently live in Scarborough. It's a fairly diverse neighbourhood.

 

[Lamel]

What is Islam's stance on the unfettered distribution of condoms?

I don't know if this is exactly the same, but I remember reading somewhere that "pulling out" is a-ok in Islam...so I guess condoms would be too? Don't ask how I know this.

Your family is a moderate family. I had a good friend who also came from a moderate family, that didn't care how their kids dressed. It's the hardline families that are the problem. They're usually "fresh off the boat", as they say.

I currently live in Scarborough. It's a fairly diverse neighbourhood.

Ha, funny part is that my family would probably be considered FOB as well...we moved to america in 1999...I'm fortunate that my family is moderate yet still religious. I however am not very religious at all.

Ah, is that in England or the U.S.? I wouldn't know how things are there sorry.

 

[Patrick Bateman]

That's no news to me.

 

[kamorra]

A question does not make one dumb. It usually does the opposite.

Dummy.

It's a correct answer which usually does the opposite. A dumb question can make you look dumb.

 

[Speedymanic]

What is Islam's stance on the unfettered distribution of condoms?

Apparently, condoms are permissible in Islam, but this is going off a quick google search.

 

[Count Dookkake]

It's a correct answer which usually does the opposite. A dumb question can make you look dumb.

That's a lovely opinion, but I'm waiting for an answer.

Apparently, condoms are permissible in Islam, but this is going off a quick google search.

For the unmarried and for gay people as well?

 

[RustyNails]

No, but it's a peek at the actual intimidation that goes on behind closed doors. That case is an extreme example, but don't pretend it doesn't exist.

"behind closed doors intimidation" also exists in non-Muslim societies. Don't pretend it doesn't exist. Honor Killings are not exclusive to Islamic societies.

However, a lesser-known case is that of Gurmeet Singh Ubhi, a Sikh man who, in February 2011, was found guilty of the murder of his 24 year-old daughter, Amrit Kaur Ubhi in 2010.[28] Mr. Ubhi was found to have murdered his daughter because he disapproved of her being 'too westernised'. Likewise he also disapproved of the fact that she was dating a non-Sikh man.[29]

But no, disregard that and keep going on spreading ignorance.

 

[badcrumble]

"behind closed doors intimidation" also exists in non-Muslim societies. Don't pretend it doesn't exist. Honor Killings are not exclusive to Islamic societies.

But no, disregard that and keep going on spreading ignorance.

lol if you think a lot of people in this thread even understand that sikhs and muslims aren't part of the same religion.

 

[Vilam]

...oh

I came in here to say that I wouldn't even know how to spot a Swiss person. Nevermind...

 

[Buba Big Guns]

No, but it's a peek at the actual intimidation that goes on behind closed doors. That case is an extreme example, but don't pretend it doesn't exist.


Not all women are forced to wear them. Some choose to.


The big problem is determining who is forced, and who chooses. I'd call it a near impossible task.

So what exactly are you arguing? Just because some uneducated fobs (as you said) have completely insane views, the hijab should be banned?

 

[Speedymanic]

For the unmarried and for gay people as well?

I can only assume so.

 

[Ashes]

lol if you think a lot of people in this thread even understand that sikhs and muslims aren't part of the same religion.

More reading material:

An example of a faulty correlation can be seen in the example of The Economist found in Hippler (1999):

'Islamic fundamentalism has become the principal threat to the survival of regimes throughout the Arab world.'

Hippler (1999) emboldened the claim by using Samuel Huntington of Harvard University who ‘postulated an 'Islamic-Confucian connection' threatening the West, its power and its identity; citing those who linked regional conflict-potential fundamentally with the religion Islam. He used Wimmer's (1998) example to highlight this:

Between Algeria, the Balkans, the Chinese province of Singhiang and Indian Kashmir there currently is no trouble spot in which the conflict potential of the Muslim World is not fanning the flames of conflict and war.” Wimmer (1998) in Hippler (1999).

Edward W. Said’s rebuttal, in his book Covering Islam (1981), to such arguments are that ‘turbulence’ in the Muslim world ‘have more to do with social, economic, and historical factors then they do unilaterally with Islam’. The aims of the book are to discuss the modern relationship between the world of Islam, the Arabs and the orient on the one hand and on the other the west, France, Britain and in particular the USA. 'In covering Islam’ the subject,

‘is immediately contemporary; western and specifically American responses to an Islamic world perceived since the early seventies as being immensely relevant and yet antipathetically troubled and problematic.’

Said goes on to accredit his claims with what he says is the 'west’s' version of Islam. That Islam is viewed as a single unified entity rather then the reality of the situation where Islam is a religion which has a wide variety of cultures, societies, languages, as has been my argument:

“In no real way is there a direct correspondence between the ‘Islam’ in common western usage and the enormously varied life that goes on within the world of Islam, with its more then 800,000,000 people, its millions of square miles of territory principally in Africa and Asia, its dozens of societies, states, histories, geographies, cultures”
(Said, 1981)

 

[scar tissue]

Please not this argument, call it whatever you like, Islamophobia or discrimination, but it exists.

Of course it exists. It's just not the same as racism.
I hate all organisied religion. That makes me an islamophobe in your book, but i don't feel that's a derogatory term.

So discrimination based on ones nationality/skin color is wrong but discrimination based on ones believes is justified?

Religion is part of peoples identity just as their sexual orientation, nationality or whatever is. There is no distinction to be made here.

lol wut
so you are born muslim/christian/atheist, huh?

 

[Tideas]

so all these posters who say Europe is awesome, blah blah blah, blah blah blah. I'm gonna go on a limb here and say such awesomeness is only reserve for white people.

And here I thought Europe was so much more progressive than America

 

[Lamel]

For the unmarried and for gay people as well?

Edit: More seriously, I'm pretty sure that pre-marital sex is not allowed in Islam...nor homosexual.

 

[lunarworks]

Ha, funny part is that my family would probably be considered FOB as well...we moved to america in 1999...I'm fortunate that my family is moderate yet still religious. I however am not very religious at all.

Ah, is that in England or the U.S.? I wouldn't know how things are there sorry.

Not all families over in Pakistan are religious nutjobs, either. There's plenty of progressives. But in the case of communities like this, it's usually the direct immigrants and first generation sons of immigrants that tend to keep the asshole philosophies prevalent back home. After a generation or two, western values start to seep in. It's just that there's been such a flood of immigration in recent decades that the culture clash has become so widespread.

I'm in Toronto, Canada. Sorry.

 

[Count Dookkake]

I can only assume so.

That's quite an assumption. I will have to wait for someone with more, uh, intimate knowledge on the subject. But thanks for not being a twat.

 

[Lamel]

Not all families over in Pakistan are religious nutjobs, either. There's plenty of progressives. But in the case of communities like this, it's usually the direct immigrants and first generation sons of immigrants that tend to keep the asshole philosophies prevalent back home. After a generation or two, western values start to seep in. It's just that there's been such a flood of immigration in recent decades that the culture clash has become so widespread.

I'm in Toronto, Canada. Sorry.

Yeah, in fact in majority of Pakistan, honor killings would be considered horrendous, but there is still extremism sadly. People think Pakistan is a very extreme nation, without having ever been there. There is definitely extremism but it is very rare compared to the total population.

And yeah I agree, some Pakistani fobs are just unbearable, they do have a hard time settling in. However most people adjust quite well.

 

[Azih]

I find it hard to believe that they choose to dress that way.

I'm confused, what age is this again?

 

[mokeyjoe]

so all these posters who say Europe is awesome, blah blah blah, blah blah blah. I'm gonna go on a limb here and say such awesomeness is only reserve for white people.

And here I thought Europe was so much more progressive than America

On both counts you seem to display a complete ignorance of a continent.

 

[Forsete]

For the unmarried and for gay people as well?

You cant be gay and muslim, that is impossible... said a Somali man on Swedish television.

 

[WARCOCK]

so all these posters who say Europe is awesome, blah blah blah, blah blah blah. I'm gonna go on a limb here and say such awesomeness is only reserve for white people.

And here I thought Europe was so much more progressive than America

It depends in what area. I'm sorry but race relations, as important as they are, are not the sole measuring stick of "progression". For instance the income gap between people is much smaller in most western european nations than the US.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gini_Coefficient_World_CIA_Report_2009-1.png

At least for now...So it really depends what you intend to mean by being "PROGRESSIVE".

 

[scar tissue]

so all these posters who say Europe is awesome, blah blah blah, blah blah blah. I'm gonna go on a limb here and say such awesomeness is only reserve for white people.

And here I thought Europe was so much more progressive than America

Tideas
ignorant rich american who cannot figure out how forums work
(Today, 09:26 PM)
Reply | Quote

amazing...

 

[RustyNails]

I'm confused, what age is this again?

The age of extremely bad analogies involving slave owners and slaves.

 

[lunarworks]

Yeah, in fact in majority of Pakistan, honor killings would be considered horrendous, but there is still extremism sadly. People think Pakistan is a very extreme nation, without having ever been there. There is definitely extremism but it is very rare compared to the total population.

And yeah I agree, some Pakistani fobs are just unbearable, they do have a hard time settling in. However most people adjust quite well.

The problem with Pakistan's image is that the wrong people are running the show over there.

It's like when Bush was in charge of the US, making them look like ignorant hicks.

 

[kamorra]

That's quite an assumption. I will have to wait for someone with more, uh, intimate knowledge on the subject. But thanks for not being a twat.

So I'm not trying to be a twat here. Since sex between unmarried and/or gay people with or without condoms isn't exactly accepted in both of the big religions what's your point?
Islam: Condoms are ok if you are married.
Catholic Church: Condoms are never ok.
Again I'm not trying to be twat. If you point is that we should ban all religions I'm with you. If it's only against Islam I can't agree.

 

[Shorty]

lol wut
so you are born muslim/christian/atheist, huh?

In most cases you are raised to be one. Since you seem to have a great appreciation for science I'm assuming that you know how much our early experiences influence who we become. Religion plays a great part in how a lot of people define who they are. So if someone feels that being muslim is part of their identity then yes, it is discriminatory to judge people based on that.

 

[Fularu]

You better explain this, because it's most likely the worst post I've ever seen on Neogaf. Traitors to humanity in what sense?

Remember that you're arguying with Water_wendi. Didn't earn the tag "water is not wet" for nothing.

 

[Azih]

I hate all organisied religion. That makes me an islamophobe in your book

I think you would you be an islamophobe if you hated muslims or made assumptions on what a person is like solely due to their muslim identity.

 

[Count Dookkake]

So I'm not trying to be a twat here. Since sex between unmarried and/or gay people with or without condoms isn't exactly accepted in both of the big religions what's your point?
Islam: Condoms are ok if you are married.
Catholic Church: Condoms are never ok.
Again I'm not trying to be twat. If you point is that we should ban all religions I'm with you. If it's only against Islam I can't agree.

Pro-tip: responding to me to comment on a question, rather than simply answering it, is being a twat.

To ease your mind, all religion is worthless, IMO.