Support NeoGAF

[OttomanScribe]

don't pretend like you know what you are talking about. There were always assyrians in the area, we still speak the language, yes the assyrian language and no one else in the area speaks it. It's derived from the old aramaic language. How do you explain that? you ignorant cunt. you are going to tell me of my own history? fuck right off.

That is the point. The Assyrian points of identity have no relation to the actual Assyrian Empire, other than some geographic similarities. They are no more ethnically or linguistically linked to the Assyrian empire than any other group. When Alexander the Great passed through the region and asked the people about the ruins that lay around, they were attributed not to the Assyrian empire, which in 200 or so years was completely forgotten, but rather to the Empire that followed.

There are not, historically, any ethnic groups that can be distinguished as 'Assyrian' until the 1500s, and these are defined as such anachronistically. I'm just saying. I am happy to recant if you can find a historical link between the Assyrian Empire and the current poeple called Assyrians.

This includes the Assyrian language, which did not exist until it broke off from Neo-Aramaic in the 14 or 15 hundreds.

I am not arguing that there aren't people that call themselves that. Or that they name their language that. But actually claiming a link to the Assyrian empire is a bit rich.

I would also say that in terms of their brutality, they were exceptional. I mean what they did to Babylon? That is exceptional.

Atrus's stuff

I think the idea of brutally oppressive Muslim empires is the revisionist history, all due respect. There were points of brutality (you bring up Timur, who sacked the Muslim city of Damascus and spent half his time killing Muslims) however the history of the Muslim Empires, and I agree with your links with the Byzantines and Persians, were predominantly of tolerance and coexistance. You can't have an Empire and brutally oppress everybody, or at least you can't have an empire that lasts and do so.

As to the genocides you mentioned, these were the product not of the Ottomans but of the New Turk movement that came with the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and the rise of Nationalism's ugly head.

 

[Centurion]

your ignorance continues. How were we able to maintain the assyrian language, if we just magically chose to pretend we are assyrians again? Just because the history books forgot them after their downfall, doesn't mean they didn't stay in the northern regions of iraq in the mountains and other areas.

but again, I'm arguing with a guy who is pretending my people are a fabrication...

im done with this thread.

 

[OttomanScribe]

your ignorance continues. How were we able to maintain the assyrian language, if we just magically chose to pretend we are assyrians again?

Look it up. The Assyrian language came out of neo-Aramaic, which was spoken throughout the region, by different ethnic groups at the time. If I handed you an Assyrian text from the Empire, you wouldn't be able to read it any better than any other person who spoke a language decended from Aramaic. Your ability to read such a text would be the same as reading one from Ur, Babylon or any other such group.

Just because the history books forgot them after their downfall, doesn't mean they didn't stay in the northern regions of iraq in the mountains and other areas.

Not history books, the people themselves. Find me a historical reference to Assyrians in the period up to like 1200. Good luck.

but again, I'm arguing with a guy who is pretending my people are a fabrication...

I have no doubt that at some point 'your people' read the Bible, realised they lived in Mesopotamia and started claiming links with the Empire that existed in the region. I don't doubt that the word you give yourselves is 'Assyrian' and the language you speak goes by the same name. However claiming that you are actually linked with the Assyrian Empire of history is what is a fabrication.

and we invented beer.

Lmao. There is no 'we' even if that were true. However it is not. Beer was arguably first invented in Sumer, though probably existed way earlier.

 

[7aged]

WTF is wrong with you people? None of this shit has anything to do with the current events in Syria.

 

[lo escondido]

The academic articles I read said nothing about Christians being any more compelled to defend the empire than Muslims. The Ottoman state was often wary of calling its military ventures 'Jihad' precisely because they were often in benefit of the Christian minorities in their lands. This was true of the Balkans as much as Greece, where Greeks only began to view themselves as such much later on, again through that creation of false nations.

I was referring to the jannissaries when i said they were forced. I'm not sure about the people of the balkans, but they did fight for their independence so I'm not sure they were thrilled with the arrangement.

 

[Centurion]

Lmao. There is no 'we' even if that were true. However it is not. Beer was arguably first invented in Sumer, though probably existed way earlier.

beer thing was a joke, it was invented by sumerians... who were practically like assyrians. but I took it out before you even posted because i knew you'd point that out.

I'll get back to this thread when I find old documents and writings from thousands of years ago to prove my existence... /sarcasm

lol at you expecting a language to remain the same over thousands of years. Look at the drastic change in English in just under 100 years.

another thing, why would "my people" read the bible which talks shit about how bad they were, turn around and "pretend" being assyrians instead of pretending to be any other group? lol I love you how came up with this theory of a bunch of christians reading the bible and thinking "hey, we live in this area!"... "they're talking about us!" from hundreds of years ago. where's your stupid ass proof?

I'll end this by saying you are a huge khmara.

try babel fishing that.

 

[OttomanScribe]

WTF is wrong with you people? None of this shit has anything to do with the current events in Syria.

Welcome to NeoGAF. Where any discussion can turn into pictures of scantily clad women, a debate about religion or the advocacy of genocide.

I was referring to the jannissaries when i said they were forced.

Are we talking about the same Jannissaries? The ruling class of the Ottoman Empire, the children of Christians raised as a Muslim elite? Their power and status so great that Muslims would often try and pretend to be Christians to get their kids admitted?

I'm not sure about the people of the balkans, but they did fight for their independence so I'm not sure they were thrilled with the arrangement.

There is a Greek saying 'rather the Turban than the Pontiff'. In general the non-Catholics of the Balkans were quite happy with Muslim rule, for most of the time anyway, as it protected them from Catholic dominence.

The Greeks didn't call themselves Greeks until the nationalist movements incited them, they called themselves Romans. The nationalism of the region was a largely foreign imposition.

 

[DXB-KNIGHT]

DBX-Knight, as an American, just wanted to say I admire and respect the courage of the people of Syria in the face of such a brutal crack down. It's so heart breaking to hear and read all of the reports coming out of Syria and the tepid response by the international community. There are fine people covering the bloodshed, but sadly it seems like it's ignored. The Arab Spring is the greatest geo-political movement since the collapse of the USSR and we need to do more to focus and support these calls for freedom and the elimination of tyranny. I don't get it honestly. The west would overjoyed if Syria was no longer a puppet state of Iran and Hezbollah.

I started following the Syrian news after my friends told me that there is a revolution in Syria but strangely the media isn't covering it as they did with Egypt or Libya. On top of that the Syrian regime is one of the shadiest regimes in the Middle East since nobody knows anything about I've even heard that the regime is operating as some sort of International mafia where if any country dares to criticizes the regime something bad will happen. Lets say if the American media started covering the story as they did with Libya and Egypt then expect a terrorist attack on American property like what they've recently done in Turkey. This truly shows how brave these people are to face a regime that even other nations are afraid of.

 

[kobashi100]

I started following the Syrian news after my friends told me that there is a revolution in Syria but strangely the media isn't covering it as they did with Egypt or Libya. On top of that the Syrian regime is one of the shadiest regimes in the Middle East since nobody knows anything about I've even heard that the regime is operating as some sort of International mafia where if any country dares to criticizes the regime something bad will happen. Lets say if the American media started covering the story as they did with Libya and Egypt then expect a terrorist attack on American property like what they've recently done in Turkey. This truly shows how brave these people are to face a regime that even other nations are afraid of.

I am wondering why the western media isnt reporting on the Syrian uprising like the did with Egypt and Libya.

Is it because Syria is a more conservative society and Islamic groups are heavily involved in the demostrations?

 

[Inanna]

they're fighting eachother?... lol i love this, muslims are fighting the christian minority. there is no fight back. you are acting a fool right now, the idiocy claim isn't name calling, it just represents who you are (at least in this topic.... well and countless other shit I've seen you write on neogaf).

boom, head shot!

You're definitely going to last long here with that attitude... That's sarcasm, btw.

And just so you know, many muslim extremists don't hesitate to bomb a mosque if it serves their agenda. See Al Qaeda bombing mosques in middle eatern and east asian countries.

 

[remnant]

I am wondering why the western media isnt reporting on the Syrian uprising like the did with Egypt and Libya.

Is it because Syria is a more conservative society and Islamic groups are heavily involved in the demostrations?

Kinda hard to report on stuff when you can't get into the country for fear of being shot. If Hosni Mubarak mowed people down the coverage would have been lighter as well


Also some shit kinda went down lately.

 

[Inanna]

i know what it's a picture of. I wanted to see your intentions for posting it... And my assumptions were correct.

don't pretend like you know what you are talking about....How do you explain that? you ignorant cunt. you are going to tell me of my own history? fuck right off.

you're showing your ignorance...

but i'm not even going to get into any further debates with you, because I know your posting history. Not even worth it.

where's your stupid ass proof?I'll end this by saying you are a huge khmara.try babel fishing that.

The fuck? You're a very, VERY hostile person. NM my previous post...

Wow, I commend you Ottoman, don't think I'd have reacted so calmly to someone calling me a cunt... I was under the impression that behaviour like this wasn't allowed on GAF?

 

[EricHasNoPull]

Never heard of Sabra and Shatila?

It took 500 years for Egypt to become majority Muslim. They were hardly on a crusade enforcing orthodoxy. Lebanon still has a large Christian population because the Christians weren't persecuted. Compare this to the massive Druid population in Christian Europe....

Christians, Jews and Muslims in general got along in the ME. While political differences and wars occured, they were rarely followed with the kind of Barbarism that the European Christians bought with them to the Levant. 40% of Ottoman Armies were Christian. This wierd nationalism and in fighting is a quite recent thing on the whole.

Hahaha, give me a fuckin break man, wouldn't you like to know why Lebanon's third largest minority is Armenian Christians? Let alone many Christian Communities in Syria?

Gee I wonder where all these Christians came from and "settled" in Syria and Lebanon and why?

 

[spineduke]

Hahaha, give me a fuckin break man, wouldn't you like to know why Lebanon's third largest minority is Armenian Christians?

Can you provide a source for this?

 

[Centurion]

Look it up. The Assyrian language came out of neo-Aramaic, which was spoken throughout the region, by different ethnic groups at the time. If I handed you an Assyrian text from the Empire, you wouldn't be able to read it any better than any other person who spoke a language decended from Aramaic. Your ability to read such a text would be the same as reading one from Ur, Babylon or any other such group.

Not history books, the people themselves. Find me a historical reference to Assyrians in the period up to like 1200. Good luck.
I have no doubt that at some point 'your people' read the Bible, realised they lived in Mesopotamia and started claiming links with the Empire that existed in the region. I don't doubt that the word you give yourselves is 'Assyrian' and the language you speak goes by the same name. However claiming that you are actually linked with the Assyrian Empire of history is what is a fabrication.


Lmao. There is no 'we' even if that were true. However it is not. Beer was arguably first invented in Sumer, though probably existed way earlier.

you need to stop pretending to know more about someones history, when it has nothing to do with your own... Only on gaf.


link...

During the Neo-Assyrian and the Neo-Babylonian period, Aramaeans, the native speakers of Aramaic, began to settle in greater numbers in Upper Mesopotamia (modern-day northern Iraq, northeast Syria, northwest Iran, and south eastern Turkey).[8] The influx eventually resulted in the Neo Assyrian Empire and Chaldean Dynasty of Babylonia becoming operationally bilingual in written sources, with Aramaic used alongside Akkadian. As these empires, and the Persian Empire that followed, extended their influence in the region, Aramaic gradually became the lingua franca of most of Western Asia and Egypt.[8] From the late 7th century CE onwards, Aramaic was gradually replaced as the lingua franca of the Middle East by Arabic. However, Aramaic remains a spoken, literary and liturgical language among Assyrian Christians, Jews, Mandaeans and some Syriac/Aramean Christians, and is still spoken by small isolated communities throughout its original area of influence, predominantly in northwest Iraq, northeast Syria, southeast Turkey and northern Iran, with diaspora communities in Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaijan and southern Russia. The turbulence of the last two centuries (particularly the Assyrian Genocide) has seen speakers of first-language and literary Aramaic dispersed throughout the world.

babylonians/chaldeans/assyrians/syriac are the same people with similar blood. To this day, there are groups of Assryians/Chaldeans/Syriac, we disagree by beliefs/religion, but we are all the same people and speak a similar language. This shit is complicated beyond your dreams, those groups still argue with eachother to this day, but they know they are decedents of the same people.

Neo-Aramaic languages

Neo-Aramaic, or Modern Aramaic, languages are varieties of Aramaic that are spoken vernaculars in the medieval to modern era, evolving out of Middle Aramaic dialects around AD 1200 (conventional date).

The term strictly excludes those Aramaic languages that are used only as literary, sacred or classical languages today (for example, Targumic Aramaic, Classical Syriac and Classical Mandaic). However, these classical languages continue to have influence over the colloquial, Neo-Aramaic languages.

According to SIL Ethnologue, there are an estimated 550,000 native speakers of Neo-Aramaic dialects as of 1994. The largest group is Sureth which some artificially divide according to church into Assyrian Neo-Aramaic (210,000 speakers), Chaldean Neo-Aramaic (206,000 speakers) and Surayt/Turoyo (112,000 speakers).

Tomorrow, lets argue about the legitimacy of your people.




and..... to stay on topic.

More deaths in Syria as Assad continues violent crackdown

A Syrian rights campaigner told the AFP news agency that security forces killed four women who were among about 150 people demonstrating on Saturday on the main coastal highway from Marqab village, near Baniyas, calling for the release of detained people.

"Members of the security forces asked them to leave and, when they refused to do so, they opened fire killing three of them and wounding five others who were hospitalised," the activist said.

The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, a London-based group, said security forces killed at least two others during the tank-backed army attack on Baniyas and demanded that authorities allow an independent committee to investigate the deaths.

The fuck? You're a very, VERY hostile person. NM my previous post...

Wow, I commend you Ottoman, don't think I'd have reacted so calmly to someone calling me a cunt... I was under the impression that behaviour like this wasn't allowed on GAF?

a person is pretending my people are a fabrication... like i care if you think I'm hostile.

 

[EricHasNoPull]

Can you provide a source for this?

excuse me that should've read as just "Christians" or Maronite Christians but not Armenian Christians, since only 175,000 Armenians as of 1986 reside in Lebanon.

Source: http://www.faqs.org/minorities/Middle-East-and-North-Africa/Lebanon.html

 

[EricHasNoPull]

Tomorrow, lets argue about the legitimacy of your people.

Aghhh Just shut up Centurion, your people are like the "Last of the Mohicans"... they probably existed back in the day, but they were nothing but desert dwellers, they had no home and no country, probably lived under a rock and should've just stayed there and never crawled out.

Now just go and tell your entire family that Assyrians are Just a fabrication of a culture, their language and history was nothing but a faint dream that has lasted no longer than 3 seconds, Assyrians haven't existed for centuries, tell them you know this because some guy on a video game forum told you all about it. Tell your entire family to stop desperately holding on to a culture that has no place in this modern world and ask them to Move to Nepal and convert to Buddhism, because...

"Your Culture is already dead!"

PS: Even if I wasn't so blatant about claiming everything about your identity is a joke and should not even exist, you still have no right to be "hostile" against me here on GAF, because that's just against the rules.

Spoiler

 

[spineduke]

excuse me that should've read as just "Christians" or Maronite Christians but not Armenian Christians, since only 175,000 Armenians as of 1986 reside in Lebanon.

Source: http://www.faqs.org/minorities/Middle-East-and-North-Africa/Lebanon.html

No worries, I was genuinely curious.

 

[Centurion]

Aghhh Just shut up Centurion, your people are like the "Last of the Mohicans"... they probably existed back in the day, but they were nothing but desert dwellers, they had no home and no country, probably lived under a rock and should've just stayed there and never crawled out.

Now just go and tell your entire family that Assyrians are Just a fabrication of a culture, their language and history was nothing but a faint dream that has lasted no longer than 3 seconds, Assyrians haven't existed for centuries, tell them you know this because some guy on a video game forum told you all about it. Tell your entire family to stop desperately holding on to a culture that has no place in this modern world and ask them to Move to Nepal and convert to Buddhism, because...

"Your Culture is already dead!"

Spoiler

ok then

PS: Even if I wasn't so blatant about claiming everything about your identity is a joke and should not even exist, you still have no right to be "hostile" against me here on GAF, because that's just against the rules.

it was totally worth it though!

 

[EricHasNoPull]

ok then

it was totally worth it though!

I know the Internets is full of racist and ignorant people, but don't let any of that get to you man, I should know first hand the hardship of being part of tiny culture/tribe in a modern world than cannot even repeat twice where you just said you are from.

I admire your courage and standing up for yourself here. again don't let this shit get to you.

 

[[Nintex]]

The support from the international community for the people of Syria seems to be low. I've got to say that the Syrians living in the Netherlands haven't handled this very well though. They decided to protest in Amsterdam but had security guards split up the protestors including the children in seperate women and men groups.

 

[Atrus]

I think the idea of brutally oppressive Muslim empires is the revisionist history, all due respect. There were points of brutality (you bring up Timur, who sacked the Muslim city of Damascus and spent half his time killing Muslims) however the history of the Muslim Empires, and I agree with your links with the Byzantines and Persians, were predominantly of tolerance and coexistance. You can't have an Empire and brutally oppress everybody, or at least you can't have an empire that lasts and do so.

As to the genocides you mentioned, these were the product not of the Ottomans but of the New Turk movement that came with the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and the rise of Nationalism's ugly head.

Even if you ignore the genocides and I don't see why they would not count, Islamic rule generally instituted slavery, oppression and persecution on the local populations that were not Muslim, doubly so if they were not Christian or Jewish.

The Ummayad conquest of North Africa was particularly brutal and the Berbers rose up several times due to the fact that Islam, at least when it first started out and still does in North Africa, preferences Arabs over everyone else.

Tens of thousands of Berbers were sold into slavery or forcibly conscripted as a result and these were the same people who in only a few years would be part of the campaign into Iberia. Hell... everywhere you looked there was probably some uprising or another since these people who 'enjoyed' being shoved into the mud daily spent no time wasted in helping anyone that looked to overthrow their oppressors.

In 2 centuries the Muslims were able to convert regions faster than the Christians could in 6 or 7 centuries. This didn't occur by the magic of how great the religion supposedly is, it came from bleeding the population dry through the tax system and taking everything they could from the local population to maintain the momentum of warfare.

The Western Christians were a brutal intolerant people but just because the Muslims were slightly less brutal intolerant people doesn't make their reign anything less than barbaric either.

The attitudes of intolerance that you see between Muslims and minorities today aren't new, they tend to crop up from time to time whenever fundamentalists hope to return to the glorious times of the Caliphate where non-Muslims kowtowed to any Muslim as a rule of law.

 

[Enosh]

The academic articles I read said nothing about Christians being any more compelled to defend the empire than Muslims.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jannisary

 

[Akkad]

Fuck it, not even worth it.

 

[Akkad]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jannisary

Yeah, apparently stealing kids and turning them into soldiers is not a brutality to OttomanScribe.

Also, Centurion don't waste you time with this guy.

 

[markot]

Your surprised Ottomanscribe is biased? Read the username, theres a hint there.

Its sad how far these tin pot dictators are willing to go to stay in power, hopefully Assad ends up Ceausescu-d soon

 

[kobashi100]

The support from the international community for the people of Syria seems to be low. I've got to say that the Syrians living in the Netherlands haven't handled this very well though. They decided to protest in Amsterdam but had security guards split up the protestors including the children in seperate women and men groups.

Islam does not encourage free mixing between men and women so Islamic groups will always try to keep demonstrations separate.

 

[markot]

I think Libya took all the attention, and then Osama got killed... >.<

Sad that there isnt as much attention, hopefully they can at least put some decent sanctions on Syria, but even then Russia and China...

Hopefully plus, Egypt and co develop well and move forward strongly, it should act as continuous pressure on these dictators, and hopefully the Egyptian government, when formed and elected, puts pressure on dictators and remembers what it fought and protested for.

 

[OttomanScribe]

you need to stop pretending to know more about someones history, when it has nothing to do with your own... Only on gaf.

History is history. The fact that you believe that your cultural background allows you to define what is your history kind of proves my point that these histories are imagined, rather than real.

babylonians/chaldeans/assyrians/syriac are the same people with similar blood. To this day, there are groups of Assryians/Chaldeans/Syriac, we disagree by beliefs/religion, but we are all the same people and speak a similar language. This shit is complicated beyond your dreams, those groups still argue with eachother to this day, but they know they are decedents of the same people.

So how do you define a people? The Assyrian empire was wiped out and forgotten, as was the Babylonian and the Chaldean. The movement of peoples through the region means that there is no single strain of history reaching back into the past. So why do you link yourself with the Assyrians any more than with the Babylonians? What about the Akkadians, who were before the Assyrians? Each of them are about as historically linked with the community today (ie. not really at all linked).

Tomorrow, lets argue about the legitimacy of your people.

I don't base my self worth upon my name, which was as unchosen as which 'nation' I was born into. I know the culture of my parents, and their parents, but as far as desiring to create a historical narrative reaching back into the ages in order to claim some empire as my own, I am happy to go without.

a person is pretending my people are a fabrication... like i care if you think I'm hostile.

I believe they exist, I just think it odd the claiming of a historical link that does not exist.

Even if you ignore the genocides and I don't see why they would not count, Islamic rule generally instituted slavery, oppression and persecution on the local populations that were not Muslim, doubly so if they were not Christian or Jewish.

The genocides of the Young Turks were justified by Turkish Nationalism, not by Islamic law, hence there is not even a shady link to draw on in those cases.

As to the idea of 'Islamic rule', whom do we define as 'Islamic'? Do we say the Mongols were Islamic because some of them gave token conversions yet did not follow the religion? Do we say that the French rule in Egypt was Islamic because the governer claimed to have converted?

I don't doubt you can pull out examples of barbarism or wars. These exist amongst Muslims just as they exist everywhere else but again, you are clutching at straws if you are attempting to write a narrative of 'Islamic rule' being a singular or consistant thing, let alone arguing that that thing was always oppressive.

Yeah, apparently stealing kids and turning them into soldiers is not a brutality to OttomanScribe.

Is conscription theft? Most sources say that Christians were eager to have their teenagers chosen for the Jannisary corps, for it would mean that they would gain great power, even over other Muslims. Sounds like brutality to me.

In 2 centuries the Muslims were able to convert regions faster than the Christians could in 6 or 7 centuries. This didn't occur by the magic of how great the religion supposedly is, it came from bleeding the population dry through the tax system and taking everything they could from the local population to maintain the momentum of warfare.

Ah yes, because the largest Muslim country in the world was conquered by Muslim armies and forcibly converted. Oh. It wasn't.

Comparing Christianty's spread to the spread of the Muslims seems a strange tactic indeed. Was the Christian conversion rate slower because they were lax in enforcing orthodoxy on their subjects? Did they charge low tax rates and avoid converting the locals in stark contrast to Muslim practice?

Where are most of the Christians in the world today? Africa and South America. Where are most of the Muslims? Indonesia. Now I'll let you guess which one was conquered and converted.

Like I said, I do think there were many examples of bad Muslim leaders in history. This is the case for all religions, there were tolerant Kings, and brutal kings, this is the way of the world. However if you are going to argue a consistant oppressive policy of all Muslim Empires, then I think you need to consider another tactic.

 

[SovietStriker]

My family members were agressed in Damascus while beeing in a church on easter by "freedom" protesters.

Just saying.

Exactly, I'm an Assyrian from Iraq (in the US now) and there are people who feel they were safer under Saddam, because that guy was a scumbag but at least he oppressed everybody equally and kept Muslims in check.

Considering a minority is in power (the Alawis), I wouldn't be surprised once the Sunni majority gets what they want all minorities will have some problems. I heard minorities under Assad live OK, since Alawis are minority themselves once Sunnis take over or there is transitional government minorities will get affected by fundamentalist Sunnis and there will be no one to stop them. Same thing happened in Iraq after USA came in, sectarian violence and neighborhoods being polarized to either Sunni or Shia neighborhoods (not to mentioned the Christian minority). Funny that the sectarian violence is still in Iraq but only began to die down once Sunni and Shia had segregated neighborhoods and lots had perished.

 

[Centurion]

History is history. The fact that you believe that your cultural background allows you to define what is your history kind of proves my point that these histories are imagined, rather than real.


So how do you define a people? The Assyrian empire was wiped out and forgotten, as was the Babylonian and the Chaldean. The movement of peoples through the region means that there is no single strain of history reaching back into the past. So why do you link yourself with the Assyrians any more than with the Babylonians? What about the Akkadians, who were before the Assyrians? Each of them are about as historically linked with the community today (ie. not really at all linked).

haha ok mister ignorant. i define a people by their culture, language, and history...all the evidence in the world won't mean shit to you. I gave you the facts, you don't know anything about this subject. You have a resentment of these people, it's clear (likely linked to the religiousness of it or since they were there before the arabs so you harbor resentment). I showed you proof, now you show me your proof that these group of people appeared out of thin air. avoid linking to arab based sites that have a clear agenda.

what is it to you if we name ourselves babylonians? assyrians? or akkadians? lol unbelievable, what's your background? go ahead tell me. at first you were saying Iraqi christians just magically chose to name themselves assyrian because they saw it in the bible, show me proof of that... I linked you to actual proof showing you the breakdown of aramaic into neo-aramaic (which you thought was pulled out of thin air in the 1500's lol). your ignorance isn't bliss, its stupid.

I don't base my self worth upon my name, which was as unchosen as which 'nation' I was born into. I know the culture of my parents, and their parents, but as far as desiring to create a historical narrative reaching back into the ages in order to claim some empire as my own, I am happy to go without.

you're a racist. you are no better than the people who say the holocaust didn't happen, the genocide against the armenians and the assyrians didn't happen. The way you talked about how "they were wiped out" except from being in the bible is just laughable. I bet you didn't even know the chaldeans/syriac share the same language, or that if you ask them, they will agree to being assyrian, they are just prideful of their own subculture. but why bother wasting my breathe on a deaf/blind mule.
lol you will quote anyone who disagrees with your agenda, and spew crap out as facts.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

Calm down, bro.

 

[RustyNails]

People calling OS a racist are idiots. Don't do it.

 

[leroidys]

History is history. The fact that you believe that your cultural background allows you to define what is your history kind of proves my point that these histories are imagined, rather than real.


So how do you define a people? The Assyrian empire was wiped out and forgotten, as was the Babylonian and the Chaldean. The movement of peoples through the region means that there is no single strain of history reaching back into the past. So why do you link yourself with the Assyrians any more than with the Babylonians? What about the Akkadians, who were before the Assyrians? Each of them are about as historically linked with the community today (ie. not really at all linked).



I don't base my self worth upon my name, which was as unchosen as which 'nation' I was born into. I know the culture of my parents, and their parents, but as far as desiring to create a historical narrative reaching back into the ages in order to claim some empire as my own, I am happy to go without.


I believe they exist, I just think it odd the claiming of a historical link that does not exist.


The genocides of the Young Turks were justified by Turkish Nationalism, not by Islamic law, hence there is not even a shady link to draw on in those cases.

As to the idea of 'Islamic rule', whom do we define as 'Islamic'? Do we say the Mongols were Islamic because some of them gave token conversions yet did not follow the religion? Do we say that the French rule in Egypt was Islamic because the governer claimed to have converted?

I don't doubt you can pull out examples of barbarism or wars. These exist amongst Muslims just as they exist everywhere else but again, you are clutching at straws if you are attempting to write a narrative of 'Islamic rule' being a singular or consistant thing, let alone arguing that that thing was always oppressive.

Is conscription theft? Most sources say that Christians were eager to have their teenagers chosen for the Jannisary corps, for it would mean that they would gain great power, even over other Muslims. Sounds like brutality to me.



Ah yes, because the largest Muslim country in the world was conquered by Muslim armies and forcibly converted. Oh. It wasn't.

Comparing Christianty's spread to the spread of the Muslims seems a strange tactic indeed. Was the Christian conversion rate slower because they were lax in enforcing orthodoxy on their subjects? Did they charge low tax rates and avoid converting the locals in stark contrast to Muslim practice?

Where are most of the Christians in the world today? Africa and South America. Where are most of the Muslims? Indonesia. Now I'll let you guess which one was conquered and converted.

Like I said, I do think there were many examples of bad Muslim leaders in history. This is the case for all religions, there were tolerant Kings, and brutal kings, this is the way of the world. However if you are going to argue a consistant oppressive policy of all Muslim Empires, then I think you need to consider another tactic.

Good we're back to the no true Scotsman. You often talk in nuance about other countries and their geopolitical situation, so you being a rote apologist for all matters Ottoman is quite disturbing. Even if we were to accept the completely absurd notion that enslaving children to be brought up as Janissaries is not barbaric, you do realize that not everyone enslaved was turned into a Janissary right? Not by a long shot. And your premise of it being this multicultural utopia where no one revolted is false. Revolts were common in the Balkans, North Africa, Iraq, etc. It was not a rare occurrence, although perhaps rarer than other empires because the double whammy of the Mongols and the Turkic peoples left the middle East and Central Asia completely devastated to the point that they could not mount any resistance.

 

[Inanna]

PS: Even if I wasn't so blatant about claiming everything about your identity is a joke and should not even exist, you still have no right to be "hostile" against me here on GAF, because that's just against the rules.

Yes... Just because someone is misinformed, lets all curse and insult that fucking ignorant racist cunt, because you know, that's just soooo much better than being mature and reasonable. Ignoring that person and not letting them get to you would totally not be right in this case.

Classy...

 

[Azih]

Lord not this again.

Any empire founded by muslims that gets brought up weren't as horrible as Atrus says they were or as enlightened as OttomanScribe says they were.

What I will say though is that each empire has to be judged separately on its own merits. Lumping them all in under the one generic label of "The Muslims" though is incredibly incredibly dumb. And everybody fucking does it *RAAAAGE*

 

[leroidys]

Lord not this again.

Any empire founded by muslims that gets brought up weren't as horrible as Atrus says they were or as enlightened as OttomanScribe says they were.

What I will say though is that each empire has to be judged separately on its own merits. Lumping them all in under the one generic label of "The Muslims" though is incredibly incredibly dumb. And everybody fucking does it *RAAAAGE*

Can't we just file Empire under "shitty" and leave religion completely out of it?

 

[EricHasNoPull]

Yes... Just because someone is misinformed, lets all curse and insult that fucking ignorant racist cunt, because you know, that's just soooo much better than being mature and reasonable. Ignoring that person and not letting them get to you would totally not be right in this case.

Classy...

I think when a discussion is tense and also a little off topic in these threads it's probably best to minimize your interference with the side beef going on between two people and don't get yourself fully involved in them, especially with calling out on people for using foul language etc, (That's what the Mods are here for) No matter how harsh and tasteless you find one's words, it's not your place to moderate a thread. Especially when those words were not even directed at you.

I wasn't taking a jab at you with my comments, I was simply trying to give you a perspective of why one might use those words in this particular situation. Thanks.

 

[Centurion]

History is history. The fact that you believe that your cultural background allows you to define what is your history kind of proves my point that these histories are imagined, rather than real.

lol you didn't prove any point. I linked you actual proof, and you just ignore it all and selectively pick things here and there to pick at that have nothing to do with the evidence I posted.

it's just funny to be told ones own history, by the person who should least likely be giving me this history lesson.

It's like learning about the genocide from the turks/kurds lol....



oh wait just a minute!

The Assyrian Genocide (also known as Sayfo or Seyfo) refers to the mass slaughter of the Assyrian/Chaldean/Syriac population of the Ottoman Empire during the First World War.[1] The Assyrian population of northern Mesopotamia (the Tur Abdin, Hakkari, Van, Siirt regions of present-day southeastern Turkey and the Urmia region of northwestern Iran) was forcibly relocated and massacred by Ottoman (Turkish) and Kurdish forces between 1914 and 1920.[1] Estimates on the overall death toll have varied. Contemporary reports placed the figure at 270,000. More recent estimates have revised that figure to as between 500,000 and 750,000.[1][2]

OttomanScribe

oooook then. Of course you'd want to pretend my people don't exist, your ancestors tried wiping them out. I will no longer respond to your posts .

People calling OS a racist are idiots. Don't do it.

whatever you say buddy!

 

[EricHasNoPull]

People calling OS a racist are idiots. Don't do it.

Ughhh! c'mon man! I usually like your posts/contributions in the OT Rusty, and I really hope you read OttomanScribe's and Centurion's conversations in the last two pages before you posted that.

Anyway, I believe this thread has derailed quite a bit, I wish the best for Syria, but it's looking kind of grim.
I really thought Bashar was a bit more reasonable leader and didn't imagine him using military force on his own people. (at least not any more than Mubarak did) His father was a huge prick, but his father also was running the country during the fifteen year war in Lebanon and couldn't show any weakness to the enemy, I figured that's where all the harsh military/totalitarian government came about and figured it will be a little more tamed by now that Syria pulled it's troops out of Lebanon few years ago.
Nothing's changed I guess, The Frikin Assad family = A Mob family that runs a country.

...I didn't read anything from OS posts that makes him seem racist, a word itself that has a very, very strong characterization and shouldn't be thrown around lightly...

It's quite harsh to tell someone your culture has died long ago along with your people and what you stand for today is simply a false fabrication of that non-existent culture, don't you think? Now I know I oversimplified the statement to fit it into a sentence, but more or less those were the arguments. And I agree that this is a very, very sensitive subject, whether the word racism is thrown around or not.

 

[RustyNails]

Ughhh! c'mon man! I usually like your posts/contributions in the OT Rusty, and I really hope you read OttomanScribe's and Centurion's conversations in the last two pages before you posted that.

Thanks Yes I read all the stuff and in my book, usually the first guy who invokes Godwin Law or calls someone racist is on the losing end of the argument, or is not putting much effort. I didn't read anything from OS posts that makes him seem racist, a word itself that has a very, very strong characterization and shouldn't be thrown around lightly. Yes we are dealing with sensitive topics and issues, but lets try to not make it a total clusterfuck with insults hurled left and right. Some of us are reading the thread and learning new things.

 

[Centurion]

Thanks Yes I read all the stuff and in my book, usually the first guy who invokes Godwin Law or calls someone racist is on the losing end of the argument, or is not putting much effort. I didn't read anything from OS posts that makes him seem racist, a word itself that has a very, very strong characterization and shouldn't be thrown around lightly. Yes we are dealing with sensitive topics and issues, but lets try to not make it a total clusterfuck with insults hurled left and right. Some of us are reading the thread and learning new things.

if you knew someone that denied the holocaust, due to the history his people have with the Jewish people, would you consider that racist? I don't throw the word around easily, but this is a clear cut case of racism/prejudice... Yes he might be blinded by his nationalism/religious belief, but ignorance can only be used as an excuse to a certain extent, then it just reaches levels of absurdity and hate.

 

[Fularu]

Considering a minority is in power (the Alawis), I wouldn't be surprised once the Sunni majority gets what they want all minorities will have some problems. I heard minorities under Assad live OK, since Alawis are minority themselves once Sunnis take over or there is transitional government minorities will get affected by fundamentalist Sunnis and there will be no one to stop them. Same thing happened in Iraq after USA came in, sectarian violence and neighborhoods being polarized to either Sunni or Shia neighborhoods (not to mentioned the Christian minority). Funny that the sectarian violence is still in Iraq but only began to die down once Sunni and Shia had segregated neighborhoods and lots had perished.

Considering that my mother is christian and my father is alawi, we're doubly fucked.

Thing is, most of the sunnis are against the current "revolution", not against reforms and changes but against the kiulling of our soldiers or the state of the current protests, which are extremely violent, especially in Baniyas and Dera'a. Hell Baniyas is Khadama's stronghold, anythign that comes from there is polluted by the brotherhood's political agenda, which is to take revenge for Hama.

I really, really don't want to see wahabism and salafism take over Syria, thanks.

 

[Ashes]

if you knew someone that denied the holocaust, due to the history his people have with the Jewish people, would you consider that racist? I don't throw the word around easily, but this is a clear cut case of racism/prejudice... Yes he might be blinded by his nationalism/religious belief, but ignorance can only be used as an excuse to a certain extent, then it just reaches levels of absurdity and hate.

Seriously off topic. I think OttomanScribe belongs to a different school of thought rather than all those personal insults you are throwing at him.

I agree with Inanna; but I don't really like seeing people being banned like that, so I would strongly suggest you edit out the cunt reference you made earlier, before a mod gets in here.

edit: Oh another jnr. Seriously, abusive ad hominem ain't the best way to argue your points.

 

[RustyNails]

if you knew someone that denied the holocaust, due to the history his people have with the Jewish people, would you consider that racist? I don't throw the word around easily, but this is a clear cut case of racism/prejudice... Yes he might be blinded by his nationalism/religious belief, but ignorance can only be used as an excuse to a certain extent, then it just reaches levels of absurdity and hate.

Holocaust deniers aren't necessarily racists and vice versa. Although both are disgusting, one does not beget the other. See to be a racist you have to be a pretty huge prick and make wide generalizations of a group of people based on their ethnicity, such as "x people are lazy" or "y people are ugly", etc. I didn't sense any form of overt hatred from OS towards any group of people. If you go to some Israel/Palestinian threads, some people try to revise history by saying Palestinians didn't exist in this part of land, are nothing but migrants, etc. It doesn't make them racists. Just uneducated.

Seriously off topic. I think OttomanScribe belongs to a different school of thought rather than all those personal insults you are throwing at him.

I agree with Inanna; but I don't really like seeing people being banned like that, so I would strongly suggest you edit out the cunt reference you made earlier, before a mod gets in here.

This too. You obviously have something to contribute, so don't call people a word that will definitely get you banned especially under a Junior status. For next time, don't throw every insult you can to people who might be arguing against what you are arguing.

 

[Bento]

Interesting to read this discussion. Lots of heat between Syrians and Assyrians in Södertälje, Sweden so it's good to know a little bit more about the background of this mess

Holocaust deniers aren't necessarily racists and vice versa. Although both are disgusting, one does not beget the other. See to be a racist you have to be a pretty huge prick and make wide generalizations of a group of people based on their ethnicity, such as "x people are lazy" or "y people are ugly", etc. I didn't sense any form of overt hatred from OS towards any group of people. If you go to some Israel/Palestinian threads, some people try to revise history by saying Palestinians didn't exist in this part of land, are nothing but migrants, etc. It doesn't make them racists. Just uneducated.

I'd argue that racism can be a lot more subtle then you make it seem. There's a reason why people are on solid ground when the find a close link between, for example, anti-Islamists and good old fashioned racists despite that the former are not necessarily shouting that brown people are evil out loud.

 

[Centurion]

Holocaust deniers aren't necessarily racists and vice versa. Although both are disgusting, one does not beget the other. See to be a racist you have to be a pretty huge prick and make wide generalizations of a group of people based on their ethnicity, such as "x people are lazy" or "y people are ugly", etc. I didn't sense any form of overt hatred from OS towards any group of people. If you go to some Israel/Palestinian threads, some people try to revise history by saying Palestinians didn't exist in this part of land, are nothing but migrants, etc. It doesn't make them racists. Just uneducated.

he's not going to show his overt hatred, but i picked up on it from the moment he replied to me questioning what his intentions were of posting this picture:

and throughout the responses. you don't pick up on it, because you don't know the history and it isn't a part of your background (not saying this to sound elitist or to pretend i know the subject more than everyone). To me, he is clearly a racist, you might not agree with that, and that's totally fine.

and listen folks, if a mod chooses to ban me for calling someone a cunt for spitting on my people and pretending we are clinging on a false past, i'll take it. But he deserves worse.

 

[RustyNails]

I'd argue that racism can be a lot more subtle then you make it seem. There's a reason why people are on solid ground when the find a close link between, for example, anti-Islamists and good old fashioned racists despite that the former are not necessarily shouting that brown people are evil out loud.

I agree totally. I just put the textbook definition because I figured it would catch any form of supposed racism against Syrians/Assyrians that OS is supposedly carrying out, and it didn't. The problem with stealth racism which you point out, or stealth xenophobia is that you cannot label someone a racist because of it.

 

[EricHasNoPull]

I'd argue that racism can be a lot more subtle then you make it seem. There's a reason why people are on solid ground when the find a close link between, for example, anti-Islamists and good old fashioned racists despite that the former are not necessarily shouting that brown people are evil out loud.

Also this... I hate to say it Rusty but your view of What is racist is quite naive or just very passive.

I fail to see why stereotyping a person because of their cultural traditions happens to be a lot more insulting (racist) than claiming that person's race should not even exist at all according to the history books that one has been grown up studying. Okay I admit, prejudice and ignorance plays a bigger role than hatred in the latter point, but still...This is the internet.

 

[Ashes]

and listen folks, if a mod chooses to ban me for calling someone a cunt for spitting on my people and pretending we are clinging on a false past, i'll take it. But he deserves worse.

Really? Ottoman didn't say anything apart from what sounds like arguments based on historical data; in fact you had to revise what he said up 100 notches to define your position as a worthy one. Was he really spitting on your people?

I have no knowledge of Syrian history, but I have talked to people on the far right here in England, and they revise England's history like nobody's business. Pretty sure the BNP call me racist* for calling them out on their revisionist history.

*Racist against the indegenious white anglo saxons pure bred English.


edit: regardless, it's always better to win arguments through intellectual points rather than hurled insults.