Thank you!
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Tablets for Art (Surface, Yoga, iPad Pro etc.) Deals Thread [to be updated regularly]
- Thread starter Shogmaster
- Start date
Thank you!
Shogmaster
Member
It's got a smaller screen than most Windows tablets @ 10.8" but with Core M5, 8GB of RAM and 256GB SSD for $374.88, what are you gonna complain about? The seller has 100% rating so you should be pretty good.
Seriously though... This is the best configured art tablet for the price I've come across thus far. And that 1920x1080 10.8" screen is Wacom AES enabled. You will need a compatible AES pen, and in all likelihood, Wacom Bamboo Smart for Select 2 in 1 will work on this bad boy.
This model is also well packed with ports, from USB-A, USB-C, micro USB, uSD slot, and micro HDMI out.
There is also a keyboard cover dock available as well, but it's almost impossible to find. For this price, just get a BT one.
Shogmaster
Member
Say what? You want to pay EVEN LESS THAN $375 for a Core M5 10.8" tablet with Wacom AES capability? You cray... But it's your lucky day, cray cray! This eBay store has the Core M5 4GB RAM and 128GB SSD version for $289.99!! That's a Core M portable art machine for less than three benjamins!!!
What is this world coming to?!? That's same price as mid range Android tablet FFS! Add the Wacom Bamboo Smart for $40 and your are still winning the shit out this deal.
Shadowhelper
Banned
My parents for some reason bought me a Galaxy Tab S3. It's gorgeous and sleek as hell. Reading comics on it is a pleasure. But, I personally would not have paid that much money for it.
I am getting acquainted with it as an art tablet. It seems to be pretty good as an art tablet. Where does it rank as an art tablet among the others, just of out curiosity. The reviews never said that particular part. Assuming the Ipad pro is better just due to the price.
I am getting acquainted with it as an art tablet. It seems to be pretty good as an art tablet. Where does it rank as an art tablet among the others, just of out curiosity. The reviews never said that particular part. Assuming the Ipad pro is better just due to the price.
Shogmaster
Member
S3 is really nice and premium, and it uses Wacom EMR pen, which IMO is still the king of active pens. But it will never be as good of an art tablet as Windows tablets with active pens nor iPad Pros due to Android's lack of premium art apps. The best you will get on Android is something like Sketchbook Pro or Medibang Paint. They lag far behind in features and performance to likes of Clip Studio Paint on Windows and OSX and Procreate on iOS IMO.
Something like that Dell Latitude 11 5175 for $290 will be superior art machine to that $600 S3 because it can use Photoshop and Clip Studio Paint.
computers putin'
Member
So I'm trying to decide whether to buy a Miix 700( open box returned ) for $515, and a Surface Pro 4 for $600(refurbished).Simply put, I just wanna know which would be better for digital art? Someone serve as the tiebreaker for me please.
Shogmaster
Member
What apps/programs will you be using? Reason I ask is because Miix 700 won't have Wintab driver available, which means you can't use legacy apps that rely on Wintab for pressure. You are limited to ones that use MS pen API, like Photoshop CC, Clip Studio Paint, etc..
Also, I assume that the Surface Pro 4 at that price is the Core M3 version with 4GB of RAM? Then I will make 2 option suggestion:
OPTION 1 - Spend $450 and get the Huawei Matebook Core M3/4GB RAM/128GB SSD from Amazon. This unit won't come with keyboard but with a pen. It uses proper Wacom AES panel so you will have Wintab driver for it, allowing you to use both legacy and MS pen API apps. The only real annoyance is the single USB=C port.
OPTION 2 - Spend $720 and get Lenovo Miix 510 with Core i5, 8GB of RAM and 256GB SSD from Newegg (was $699 last night lol). This unit has lower resolution screen than SP4, but 1920x1200 is still good for 12.2" and more importantly it has Wacom's official AES panel with Wintab driver, and 8GB of RAM to muscle through large canvas sizes and layers. Also comes with backlit type cover, so you just need to spring $25~40 for the pen.
computers putin'
Member
Fuck, I plan on using photoshop and clip studio paint mainly, but no wintab driver means there's no way to tweak pen sensitivity correct? I just bought the miix 700 off of ebay, i did some research and went with that, but i didn't know about the lack if a wintab driver.
Clip Studio Paint has Pen Pressure Settings under "File". You can tweak how much pressure you want to apply.
It's not a perfect solution, but you could probably get the Lazy Nezumi plugin for Photoshop's pressure control. It's primarily designed with line control in mind, but it does have options to deal with uneven pressure lines.
Do you happen to know what Paint Tool SAI requires in this regard? CSP topples it in most ways but I still like to use it occasionally (especially with the 2.0 version finishing soon... I hope). I could live without it, just curious.
Shogmaster
Member
With Clip Studio Paint, there is really no need to tweak through Wintab. The way Wacom Wintab driver tweaks pressure curve is really ham fisted. CSP will let you map the curve way more precisely anyways.
The only real reason for Wacom Wintab is for legacy apps and mapping pen barrel buttons.
Shogmaster
Member
I haven't use PTS in ages so I'm not sure. Sorry. Maybe someone else here would know.
computers putin'
Member
I suppose i can give this a shot when it comes, thanks.
Shogmaster
Member
You know what's a WAY better solution? Mapping the pen pressure curve behavior individually per brush!
computers putin'
Member
You know what's a WAY better solution? Mapping the pen pressure curve behavior individually per brush!
I know about the pen sensitivity in CSP, but I used it in conjuction with wintab and had a specific setup I got used to. I can get around it though and tweak it some more through CSP, so that's no big deal. I was more worried about pressure sensitivity in Photoshop 6 when it comes to painting.
Shogmaster
Member
Dude. You won't be able to have pressure with CS6 without Wintab anyways. You need CC at least. So don't expect CS6 to have pressure with Miix 700.
CS6 BTW is crippled by newer Wacom Wintab anyways. There are intermittent pressure loss every few strokes. Almost like it was designed that way...
Shogmaster
Member
OOPS!! I totally didn't realize Yoga 720 also has Wacom AES support!
This one is less than $830 with dual core ULV i7
This one has QUAD CORE i7 and less than $1000!
THIS fucker has Quad core 7, 4K SCREEN, and GTX1050 along with 16GB RAM and 512GB PCIe SSD and for less than $1400!!
Shogmaster
Member
You should ask that in a general tablet thread. This is an art tablet deal thread.
Vigilant Walrus
Member
WAT.
HOW HAVE I NOT HEARD ABOUT THIS DEVICE???
A Quad-core convertible with 1050 graphics. HOW? What? This should be setting the world on fire.
Shogmaster
Member
It's bc Lenovo makes like zillion models of laptops per year. Thing can get lost in the shuffle.
This thing is at Best Buy right now so I plan to go check it out in person today or tomorrow.
BTW, this thing should be destroying Surface Book sales if there is any justice. $1400 wont even get you a discrete GPU, let alone quad core i7, 16GB of RAM and 512GB PCIe SSD...
Shogmaster
Member
In addition to the Yoga 720, there yet another Lenovo 15.6" 360 convertible with active pen and discrete GPU: It's called Yoga 520 in Europe, and Flex 5 15.6" in US.
As I have mentioned before, Lenovo has too damn many models, and it can get VERY confusing to distinguish between them. So I shall attempt to clarify their newest active pen 2 in 1 models:
Anyways, whoever asked before about 15.6" active pen 2 in 1, the cheapest one you can buy new is the Lenovo Flex 5 without discrete GPU for $699.
But if you want one with discrete GPU, you can spend $840 for one with AMD R7 M460.
As I have mentioned before, Lenovo has too damn many models, and it can get VERY confusing to distinguish between them. So I shall attempt to clarify their newest active pen 2 in 1 models:
Anyways, whoever asked before about 15.6" active pen 2 in 1, the cheapest one you can buy new is the Lenovo Flex 5 without discrete GPU for $699.
But if you want one with discrete GPU, you can spend $840 for one with AMD R7 M460.
Is there a good comparison showing the difference between EMR and AES for drawing, anywhere? I've been using classic Intuos/Cintiqs with EMR for years now, and i'm curious how AES compares.
I was interested in N-Trig too, but Tested review of the MS Studio, steered me off, at least until they iron out that stuff.
I was interested in N-Trig too, but Tested review of the MS Studio, steered me off, at least until they iron out that stuff.
Shogmaster
Member
I wrote up a whole long thing about the difference long time ago. It might be this thread, it might be entirely different forum (probably).
The long and short of it is this: With AES, you have the touch digitizer layer doing double duty. It has to sense not only finger multi-touch, but the pen position. EMR only has to worry about the pen it can't sense fingers (EMR pen machines have second separate digitizer for touch - the same electro static type that does both pen and touch on AES devices).
What this practically means that those who have used EMR for a long time will sense a slight hesitation with AES pens that they never felt with EMR pens. That slight (less than 1 millisecond or something in that order) is the digitizer trying to figure out whether that new input it received was pen or finger. Yes it's perceptible, but so slight that you quickly get use to it. The most important fact about Wacom AES is that it uses the same load sensor and pressure curve on the pens as Wacom EMR set up. So you just have to get use to that ever so slight, barely perceptible delay of the pen.
Shogmaster
Member
Yes. the digitizer layer is on top of the LCD (for EMR it's below the LCD and lighting element), so as long as the glass cover is optically bonded to the LCD, you practically have no parallax.
This is good news, as i said i was searching for a viable alternative to the mobile studio pro, and this should open up more options.
Shogmaster
Member
Finally. Buying in a heart beat if it fixes my problems with the surface pen.
Edit: Wait, is this not the pen that is supposed to work with ntrig too? I don't see anything on the product description.
Shogmaster
Member
MPP = Microsoft Pen Protocol
AtomskEater
Member
That's the "G13" pen that was delayed for months, right? Excited to see how it performs.
Shogmaster
Member
me too @v@
I'm not sure how it is for drawing (someone else might know in here)
but it seems
Dell - Inspiron 2-in-1 13.3" Touch-Screen Laptop - Intel Core i7 - 12GB Memory - 256GB Solid State Drive - Gray
is on sale on best buy for $699.99 in general with an open box version at $608.99
model seems to be I7378-4314GRY.
seems like good specs for the price, but as i said I don't know how the touch screen/stylus support is for it.
but it seems
Dell - Inspiron 2-in-1 13.3" Touch-Screen Laptop - Intel Core i7 - 12GB Memory - 256GB Solid State Drive - Gray
is on sale on best buy for $699.99 in general with an open box version at $608.99
model seems to be I7378-4314GRY.
seems like good specs for the price, but as i said I don't know how the touch screen/stylus support is for it.
Shogmaster
Member
The same model is on sale at Office Depot for $599, but I don't think it does active pen of any kind so it's moot.
the one you listed only has an i5 (not an I7) and 8gb of ram (instead of 12)
so while they are the same model, they aren't the same specs.
but yeah, didn't know if it had an active pen though the best buy reviews talked about some sort of dell pen that worked on it. Thus why I wasn't sure if it was a good one or not for drawing purposes.
Shogmaster
Member
Nope. No mention of active pen from google. Only Inspiron convertible model with Active pen I know of is 7568.
RadicalVelocity
Member
I hope tilt is in it (assuming I remember everything correctly/didn't get cut). I am excitedly awaiting arrival.
Still looking for a Bigger and Better companion to my miix 700 (which i also believe has some digitizer problem, as i have an inconsistent and very horrific jitter problem on the right third of the screen--hopefully covered under warranty once this quarter is over with, as it's my primary note device). If the next surface book has TB3, that could be a winner, since i would like laptop lappability.
I don't really want a laptop that folds the keys against all the dirty surfaces of the world, for the sake of my (in)sanity. TB3 to get some synergy with a good external GPU (dGPU's of the 1st gen are way too low performance/high cost) would be a massive plus. That last one i'm afraid will dash my hopes for any potential surface book successor though.
AW SHIT
Shogmaster
Member
First, quick pen history for Windows 8/10 if you want to read it:
When MS was making SP3, they had full intention of using Wacom again. But unfortunately for Wacom, their own capacitive electro static active pen solution (which uses single touch digitizer for both pen and touch to reduce thickness and weight) was not completed in time. This forced MS to turn to another pen IP: N-Trig, for SP3.
N-Trig's Duo Sense 2 was the best capacitive electro static active pen available at the time, but the issue for us artists was that their pen's load sensor was no where as sensitive as Wacom's, so going from Wacom to N-Trig made many unhappy. But for MS, N-Trig switch and purchase was good for many reasons: They get to own a leading pen IP that much better suits consumer market than Perceptive Pixel's expensive tech that they already own, and it made for a good leverage against Wacom who probably wasn't a good candidate for main component partner for important project like Surface line.
In the meantime, MS is really focused in making the pen and digital ink a big part of Windows experience, expanding ink featureset into newer versions of Windows. But one of the problems that became obvious is that there are too many electro static pen IP competing in the Windows 2 in 1 space, creating lots of confusion for the consumers. This is not lost to other pen ODMs and there is a new effort for one pen standard for this space under USI (Universal Stylus Initiative) banner, started by Intel and others. Almost every pen ODM joins USI (Synaptic, Hanvon, Waltop etc.) except for the two biggest (Wacom and MS/N-Trig). Wacom joins eventually, but initially they had their own plans.
Fast forward few years and now Wacom's own capacitive electro statice active pen solution is having a decent impact on the market (Active ES), and it's market penetration is pretty solid with many ODM wins. Many artists are preferring it's superior pen feel over N-Trig's even after some expensive retooling of the pen for SP4 and Surface Book. So apparently MS approached Wacom in 2016 to make a pen for both of their pen standards, which uses different frequency for pen to touch board communication, with different protocol etc.. This partnership is announced in May of 2016.
Meanwhile MS has morphed N-Trig's Duo Sense 2 into MPP (Microsoft Pen Protocol), and has licensed it out to parts ODMs to manufacture MPP parts cheaper. By mid 2017, some Chinese market only tablets begins to use MPP. Also at CES 2017, Dell tells those who ask that their 2017 2in1s with active pens will be divided into Wacom AES (premium brands like XPS) and MPP (cheaper brands like Inspiron).
BTW, if the MPP standard is adopted by more pen part ODMs, USI is pretty much done for...
N-Trig's Duo Sense 2 was the best capacitive electro static active pen available at the time, but the issue for us artists was that their pen's load sensor was no where as sensitive as Wacom's, so going from Wacom to N-Trig made many unhappy. But for MS, N-Trig switch and purchase was good for many reasons: They get to own a leading pen IP that much better suits consumer market than Perceptive Pixel's expensive tech that they already own, and it made for a good leverage against Wacom who probably wasn't a good candidate for main component partner for important project like Surface line.
In the meantime, MS is really focused in making the pen and digital ink a big part of Windows experience, expanding ink featureset into newer versions of Windows. But one of the problems that became obvious is that there are too many electro static pen IP competing in the Windows 2 in 1 space, creating lots of confusion for the consumers. This is not lost to other pen ODMs and there is a new effort for one pen standard for this space under USI (Universal Stylus Initiative) banner, started by Intel and others. Almost every pen ODM joins USI (Synaptic, Hanvon, Waltop etc.) except for the two biggest (Wacom and MS/N-Trig). Wacom joins eventually, but initially they had their own plans.
Fast forward few years and now Wacom's own capacitive electro statice active pen solution is having a decent impact on the market (Active ES), and it's market penetration is pretty solid with many ODM wins. Many artists are preferring it's superior pen feel over N-Trig's even after some expensive retooling of the pen for SP4 and Surface Book. So apparently MS approached Wacom in 2016 to make a pen for both of their pen standards, which uses different frequency for pen to touch board communication, with different protocol etc.. This partnership is announced in May of 2016.
Meanwhile MS has morphed N-Trig's Duo Sense 2 into MPP (Microsoft Pen Protocol), and has licensed it out to parts ODMs to manufacture MPP parts cheaper. By mid 2017, some Chinese market only tablets begins to use MPP. Also at CES 2017, Dell tells those who ask that their 2017 2in1s with active pens will be divided into Wacom AES (premium brands like XPS) and MPP (cheaper brands like Inspiron).
BTW, if the MPP standard is adopted by more pen part ODMs, USI is pretty much done for...
Now for the benefits part of this Wacom Dual Protocol Pen for us: You basically get best of both MS MPP/N-Trig Duo Sense 2 (better touch grid density on premium panels, better palm rejection, better diagonal line jitter control), and Wacom AES (much lower Initial Detection Force of the pen's load sensor of 1 gram vs 5+ gram of other brands' pens, much more linear and predictable pressure curve, higher granularity of the pressure level for market purposes, and tilt detection of the new Gen 13 pens).
Now the only benefits left for making sure that your new 2in1 has Wacom AES are ability to map pen barrel buttons via Wacom control panel (you probably won't get that utility for MPP pens), and all the legacy software support via Wacom's Wintab driver. Lack of these features still may be deal breakers for some.
Pretty informative post, thanks Shog. So with that said, it seems to make sense that MS bundles this new pen with whatever surface product they have planned next week.
Also, what's the cost on this new pen by itself?
I almost regret not waiting to order my SB. We shall see.
Also, what's the cost on this new pen by itself?
I almost regret not waiting to order my SB. We shall see.
Shogmaster
Member
I wouldn't presume they would include this pen with future Surface SKUs. Their normal pen is much cheaper to make (1 coil vs 2 needed for tilt) and base pen more than fulfills most buyers' needs.
Also Wacom would make bigger margin selling them separetely since it looks like they will charge $70 per pen like their Intuos Pro and Cinitiq pens.
Shogmaster
Member
You probably have the one that says Lenovo on the barrel. The one that says Thinkpad on the barrel has much longer nib. Its $40 from Lenovo.
The Wacom Bamboo Smart for Select 2in1 has similar nib length as Thinkpad Pen Pro version. Its also $40.
Or you can wait for this new Bamboo Ink that probably has sane nib length as other Bamboo Smart but may or may not add pen tilt to your Miix 700 for $70.
Vigilant Walrus
Member
It's infruitating the prices Microsoft charge. But I love that Apple and Microsoft have these understated design ques. You barely notice logos, typography and flashy design elements. Why can't the other manufactureres just make designs that also blend into any sort of users lifestyle?
Instead they over saturate them with stickers, weird angles, curves and these other elements that make the computer look and feel out of place in many contexts. And their lack of understanding that less is more when it comes to aesthetics, is driving home Microsoft and Apples ability to charge these premium prices.
If it were up to me, there wouldn't be any branding or logos at all on the visible sides of the products.
I'm working with design day-to-day, but I am one of those designers who never adjusted to a wacom pen. For me, the idea that I can have full fledged Illustrator and After Effects on a convertible laptop with good pen would really do wonders for my workflow. But I need that Quad. I need that dedicated graphics.
Just looking at something like Alienware 13- I'd take that gaudy and aggressive looking tron futurist space laptop if it had a Convertible screen. With its insane Oled screen, impressive cooling, the thing would... sigh..
Who the hell is responsible for this divide? You'd think that content creators, prosumers and gamers would be under the same target audience? What does gamers lose by the screen being 360 degrees? Does it add that much cost to a mobile device to add a 360 degree hinge?
Shogmaster
Member
Its about cost. Those 360 hinges are more expensive than regular ones, and 360 screen require IPS to look fine in all modes. Most gaming laptops are TN for pixel response and cost reasons.
Shogmaster
Member
Negligible.
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked
- Poll
- Locked