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[Hcoregamer00]

*rolls dice*

Game shows are back.

You don't know Jack 2013 version

XBOX 720 killer app exclusive

 

[ShogunX]

If Bungie's next IP is multiplat, they're going to need to get major backing from some studio. Otherwise a commercial that says, "from the creators of Halo" isn't going to cut it. I'm looking at you, Stubbs the Zombie.

Im pretty sure the box actually says ''Uses the Halo engine'' or something along those lines.

Edit -

 

[JCtheMC]

I honestly think the Houser Brothers have pulled a Wachowski brothers. That is, I suspect they don't understand what made them so popular in the first place. If a game has qualities X+Y+Z, it is often possible that people love X so much that they love the game in spite of Z, not because of it. Developers get the wrong idea, and think the huge sales mean people loved Z, so they put tons of effort in to Z, ignoring or reducing X (and Y).

I more or less agree with this. The main fault of the new focus is not compensating for whatever gameplay is lost. If you take an option from a player, you should (at least) give him one in return - and that type of equation just isn't very simple if you consider what type of game Rockstar intended to make. I'm expecting the next two GTA games to be comparable to Vice City and San Andreas in terms of how well the different elements are developed. I think that IV was as much a learning experience for R* as III was.

BTW. I can't believe you couldn't cram a sex change joke in there.

 

[NullPointer]

Pretty much. They were so focused on telling the best story ever in the most realistic city ever, they forgot to design a video game.

The shame is, they could've managed to have X, Y and Z in there if they tried. Strictly enforced linearity in a sandbox environment just isn't meant to be. Also, we've all seen other open world games this gen with much better combat mechanics, so it makes GTA4 look pretty damn antiquated.

Here's hoping they learn the right lessons this time around: Create a quality sandbox first, in terms of gameplay that is fun in its own right, and then create a compelling story that can drive that gameplay, and give it meaningful context. Otherwise, take Batman AA'c cure and shrink the sandbox if needed, or just remove it altogether and just make a linear story-driven game.

 

[DaveTheSnake]

Take a pick:
A) It's console exclusive
B) GTA4 backlash
C) GTA is not a franchise people really follow. They see the release, they pick up the main game, they kill a few cops and then they stop caring.

D) All of the above. :lol

I also choose D!

Were people really surprised by this?

 

[Keikoku]

Well that's a shame, they were great expansions. But I thought that TLAD did something like 1 million ?

The story and characters were the worst part of GTAIV. Why would I (or anyone) pay for more of that shit?

Well actually you pay for different (and better) characters & stories. That's the point of these DLCs.

 

[a Master Ninja]

"Episodes From Liberty City seems to have been most appealing to those who have finished GTA IV and wanted more story and gameplay," Feder said. "Which is a smaller market than initially expected."

At least they are finally coming to accept/understand how people play the games and what the majority of the buying public really wants from them.

 

[ghostmind]

This is why DLC isn't the best idea for some games. GTA thrived on hype last gen, with the period of time between releases allowing for that buildup. Continuing to feed the public more GTA (using the same city/engine/etc) kind of dulls that.

The DLC being platform-specific probably wasn't the smartest move either, though I'm sure some folks made some mad coin from that.

 

[G0DLIKE]

I bought Episodes from Liberty City a few days ago. Haven't played any of TBoGT yet, but TLaD is brilliant so far.

I'm sure the reason it's selling less than expected is because of MW2. I was always gonna buy this game, but knew I'd be playing MW2 for a month straight, so I held off. I'm sure others will be the same.

 

[aryies]

Not a chance. The next GTA will come out and do 10m+. The second Rockstar starts talking about it the hype will go through the roof.

pretty much.

haters will hate, but its not going anywhere.

 

[nightez]

No more episodic content pls.

I WANT FULL GAMES

Really. GTA IV had more content than most full games.

 

[Narcosis]

I live in a place with a population of about 50,000. I remember seeing a rack of used GTA IV at one of the stores here. The 360 version alone probably had a good 30-40 on the shelf.

A lack of expected sales doesn't surprise me after seeing that.

 

[Freedom = $1.05]

*rolls dice*

Game shows are back.

:lol :lol :lol man, futurama used to be so good

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

Sooo many haters.

Coen Brothers movies don't make the top ten either. ("Buh-haw-haw-OSCAR WORTHY LOL") Laugh it up, but the Hausers clearly had more aspirations in the storytelling arena than the gameplay one. This connected with some people (me and the millions of people keeping it in the Live Top 10, still, a year and a half later, for an example), and didn't with others. Such is the nature of art in a fledgeling, commercial medium.

 

[Freedom = $1.05]

Sooo many haters.

Coen Brothers movies don't make the top ten either.

Oh fuck, here come the oscar-worthy jokes.

 

[RainbowByte]

Noone wants expansions when the core gameplay is shit.

I have little interest in buying games that promise episodic content, usually DLC is just a cash grab for content that was cut from shipping with the game on time, and a way to dodge the problem of used game sales.

DLC that doesn't significantly improve gameplay mechanics or integrate fan feedback of the original game isn't worth what they charge for it - just give me a sequel that sucks less 12-18 months later at full price instead.

They're so screwed if Agent ends up being panned as a reskinned GTA and Red Dead Redemption goes bomba

 

[tetrisgrammaton]

welcome to the digital download future TTWO

They're so screwed if Agent ends up being panned as a reskinned GTA and Red Dead Redemption goes bomba

RDR looks great. The question is if there is a big enough demographic for that type of game. I mean Westerns definitely skew 40+. Old guys at my job love to talk about Westerns. They would LOVE it, but they would never be able to come to grips with what the game will expect out of them.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

BOOYAH! I CALLED IT!!!

 

[DeadGzuz]

Sooo many haters.

Coen Brothers movies don't make the top ten either. ("Buh-haw-haw-OSCAR WORTHY LOL") Laugh it up, but the Hausers clearly had more aspirations in the storytelling arena than the gameplay one. This connected with some people (me and the millions of people keeping it in the Live Top 10, still, a year and a half later, for an example), and didn't with others. Such is the nature of art in a fledgeling, commercial medium.

Where is the art? Some cliche gangster story bundled with poor shooting mechanics and repetitive missions? Not to mention their technical ineptness on the consoles.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

Where is the art? Some cliche gangster story bundled with poor shooting mechanics and repetitive missions? Not to mention their technical ineptness on the consoles.

There's been no sequence I've played that's been as successfully engaging as Niko and Roman driving to his blasted out apartment and then the taxi stand.

That's just one example.

 

[DoomGyver]

I would have bought the DLC for the PS3 if it had come in '09

-1 sale

 

[Jonnyboy117]

GTA4 is a good game, but I don't think anyone finished it (or quit early, in most cases) and thought "Damn, can't wait for more of that!" The game is already too protracted and expansive for its own good.

 

[legend166]

Sooo many haters.

Coen Brothers movies don't make the top ten either. ("Buh-haw-haw-OSCAR WORTHY LOL") Laugh it up, but the Hausers clearly had more aspirations in the storytelling arena than the gameplay one. This connected with some people (me and the millions of people keeping it in the Live Top 10, still, a year and a half later, for an example), and didn't with others. Such is the nature of art in a fledgeling, commercial medium.

Uh, what?

I doubt it's the storytelling keeping people playing online 18 months after release.

 

[Mrbob]

Even though I don't care for GTA4, the sad fact is these episodes are one of the few cases of DLC done right on a console. They look like real expansions. So Rockstar is getting punished for doing proper DLC, regardless of the issues.

Which means we are now going to see crappy, tiny DLC packs for GTA5.

One of my friends tells me I should pick up the Liberty City Episodes disc even though I quit GTA4 about 12 hours in. Best Buy is having it on sale for $29.99, maybe I'll check it out.

 

[Keikoku]

Even though I don't care for GTA4, the sad fact is these episodes are one of the few cases of DLC done right on a console. They look like real expansions. So Rockstar is getting punished for doing proper DLC, regardless of the issues.

Which means we are now going to see crappy, tiny DLC packs for GTA5.

One of my friends tells me I should pick up the Liberty City Episodes disc even though I quit GTA4 about 12 hours in. Best Buy is having it on sale for $29.99, maybe I'll check it out.

Maybe not. I mean, sales may be underwhelming, but they're probably higher than most DLCs.

 

[Haunted]

Ballad of Gay Tony is awesome. Much better than vanilla GTAIV, much much better than The Lost and Damned.

Sooo many haters.

Coen Brothers movies don't make the top ten either. ("Buh-haw-haw-OSCAR WORTHY LOL") Laugh it up, but the Hausers clearly had more aspirations in the storytelling arena than the gameplay one. This connected with some people (me and the millions of people keeping it in the Live Top 10, still, a year and a half later, for an example), and didn't with others. Such is the nature of art in a fledgeling, commercial medium.

Yes, GTAIV's multiplayer displays some truly amazing storytelling.


wait what

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

Ballad of Gay Tony is awesome. Much better than vanilla GTAIV, much much better than The Lost and Damned.



Yes, GTAIV's multiplayer displays some truly amazing storytelling.


wait what

Xbox Live Top Ten doesn't only measure Multiplayer instances of gaming.

 

[Haunted]

Xbox Live Top Ten doesn't only measure Multiplayer instances of gaming.

Ah, fair enough!


Storytelling debate aside, I don't really get the "the mechanics have aged" comments. RAGE is a good engine [if poorly optimised on the PC] - RDR uses it and the recent trailer got only positive responses.

 

[ViperVisor]

$50 use to get you a new city and some fun additions on PS2

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

Ah, fair enough!


Storytelling debate aside, I don't really get the "the mechanics have aged" comments. RAGE is a good engine [if poorly optimised on the PC] - RDR uses it and the recent trailer got only positive responses.

Admittedly, I doubt people are still sumptuously enjoying GTAIV's delicate PTA-style cutscene staging and editing. My friends and I still just go into a Free Roam and shoot each other for hours every Friday.

 

[Toonami 99]

F. Several other sandbox games released this year.

There was way too many sand box games released. off the top of my head:
Prototype
Red Fraction
The Saboteur
Assassins Creed II

Why go back to Liberty City when you can explore in other games. The reason I didnt buy it was because I was extremely disappointed with GTAIV.

 

[Dead Man]

As the Giantbomb guys said, it's amazing how fast GTA IV's gameplay mechanics have aged. I'm not interested in any more GTA games until they give the shooting gameplay a huge rehaul.

Definitely.

No. This is PRECISELY their problem with GTA4. They try to reinvent it and fail doing so instead of improving on the old formula that had EXTREME ROOM to expand/improve.
If GTA4 had focused on becoming more of a complex sandbox and improving the freedom, it would have rock the fucking world. But not, they put GTA4 into a completely story driven linear action game -- but in an open envirronement. Bad idea.

Yeah, I don't understand what they wanted to achieve with this. They took out all the reasons for an open world. They may as well have separate, discrete missions and called it an adventure game.

I have no 360, but even if they were on PS3 I would not buy them, and I've bought every other GTA. Even the shoddy PSP ports.

Edit:

F. Several other sandbox games released this year.

There was way too many sand box games released. off the top of my head:
Prototype
Red Fraction
The Saboteur
Assassins Creed II
Saints Row 2

Why go back to Liberty City when you can explore in other games. The reason I didnt buy it was because I was extremely disappointed with GTAIV.

Fixed

Storytelling debate aside, I don't really get the "the mechanics have aged" comments. RAGE is a good engine [if poorly optimised on the PC] - RDR uses it and the recent trailer got only positive responses.

The engine is awesome, but the gunplay and movement mechanics are very clunky to many people. If they work for you that's good, but a large portion of players seem to struggle with it.

 

[Willninho]

What we don't know are exact numbers anyway, so I don't know how this actually did. For instance, this could be the best full expansion-style numbers for console DLC, just it's not what Take2 was thinking saleswise and just a case of console players not wanted full on single player DLC.

 

[NullPointer]

The engine is awesome, but the gunplay and movement mechanics are very clunky to many people. If they work for you that's good, but a large portion of players seem to struggle with it.

Yep. Clunky cover system, and slow-walking through gunfights, otherwise having to hold down a face button to jog. Cars also didn't seem to have brakes that worked worth a damn. It shouldn't take an entire city block to slow down from what looks like a moderate speed.

 

[rohlfinator]

In addition to the numerous reasons already mentioned, I'd add:

-DLC probably isn't really in the minds of the greater GTA fanbase. I bet there are a huge number of GTA4 owners who didn't even know TLAD existed until it hit retail as part of the bundle. GTA seems like type of game that would have sold well to the millions of more casual players who might have an Arcade model that's not hooked up to the internet.

-They didn't really do a good job of promoting the distinguishing features of the episodes. I enjoyed GTA4's story and finished the game, but TLAD sounded like a pretty standard mission pack to me until I heard positive impressions on GAF. They needed a more exciting selling point -- I ended up liking the new motorcycle gameplay a lot, but just seeing those features in a trailer wouldn't have sold me on the game, especially if I was already bored with the original's story.

Storytelling debate aside, I don't really get the "the mechanics have aged" comments. RAGE is a good engine [if poorly optimised on the PC] - RDR uses it and the recent trailer got only positive responses.

Engine != mechanics. I'm a big fan of RAGE as well, but the aiming and cover mechanics are definitely a step below some of the more recent big third-person shooters.

That said, :lol at anyone who's suggesting the earlier games had better driving and shooting mechanics.

 

[Mr.Squirrel]

Would buy for PS3.

.

 

[riceandbeans]

Take a pick:
A) It's console exclusive
B) GTA4 backlash
C) GTA is not a franchise people really follow. They see the release, they pick up the main game, they kill a few cops and then they stop caring.

C) Nailed it.

Apparently, they didn't realize those "core" gamers don't purchase DLC. Core gamers buy physical discs. 50 million dollars wasted on episodic content that probably would have happened anyway. They overestimated the GTA brand and failed.

 

[Die Squirrel Die]

Yep. Clunky cover system, and slow-walking through gunfights, otherwise having to hold down a face button to jog. Cars also didn't seem to have brakes that worked worth a damn. It shouldn't take an entire city block to slow down from what looks like a moderate speed.

I don't disagree with those observations, but I do wonder if people aren't overselling the backlash of a vocal minority to aggrandise their own dissapointment. There's been complaints about the gameplay and controls in non-top down GTAs since they started making non-top down GTAs and everytime there are people claiming that this time it will be the final straw and downfall of the series.

I think there was some precedence to the response the DLC would receive in the reception of the Stories ports on the PS2. Okay they were late in the gen ports from the PSP, but they were budget price on a console which had seen huge GTA sales, yet sold a fraction of what their location predecessors sold. Maybe it's just that having a new setting, a new enviroment to explore is a far bigger part of the appeal of the GTA games than Rockstar counted on.

 

[Druz]

or did they also lose some money by not releasing the Add-Ons on PS3? Discuss!

the lack of a PS3 version is not the issue being discussed at all and yet brought up anyway. Orange Box L4D2 deja vu

this is about shit sales on the 360 version. I think it has a lot to due with the issues of GTA4 being mentioned.

 

[Pachinko]

Well the simple answer is that unlike the ps2 GTA trilogy , GTA4 wasn't unanimously received with open arms. We'd all played at least 1 of the 3d instalments, many of us played all of them and after san andreas it's highly likely the average GTA fan was looking for a follow up to it game play wise.

I happen to have enjoyed playing through GTA4 , it's the only game in the series that did anything for me because the controls and such finally got a place where I wasn't constantly frustrated with the games problems like the older entries. It still wasn't perfect but it was enough to get me through the storyline. For me in particular the "playground" half of the gta series has never interested me much, 30 minutes to an hour of messing around in the city using cheats and just trying to get a 5 or 6 star rating is more then enough.

This is why I didn't really care that GTA4 had basically nothing to do outside of the same 3 mission types. It stands to reason that the majority of the GTA fanbase does enjoy the playground aspects , some of them just gave up on playing gta and it's clones entirely , others went to saints row 2.

So , despite selling a few million copies , many of those copies were traded in for something else and weren't repurchased for the DLC. So you've got half the audience left and then half of that audience is on a system without the DLC even available. So in the end take 2 has perhaps only 25% of the original purchasers left to even sell towards. Not all 360 GTA4 owners bothered to buy it either. This is why we have a disc release with both episodes complete with a decent ad campaign. It still didn't work though because the mainstream GTA owner has moved on to other things- call of duty modern warfare 1/2 for one thing. For the fans who didn't move on I think they had their fill of the game by now, I mean it is a year and a half old now, new story/characters but the city is still the same.

What we want and what take 2 needs to do now is make either a brand new GTA fixing all the complaints from 4 or go make a new franchise of some kind.

 

[Die Squirrel Die]

This is why I didn't really care that GTA4 had basically nothing to do outside of the same 3 mission types. It stands to reason that the majority of the GTA fanbase does enjoy the playground aspects , some of them just gave up on playing gta and it's clones entirely , others went to saints row 2.

I'm not trying to pick you out specifically, but this is what I was getting at in my previous post. If it was a case that the backlash against GTA was so great then why were sales of the alternatives only okay, rather than spectacular? Outside of ACII nothing presented as an alternative sold more than a small fraction of what GTAIV did.

 

[HK-47]

:lol :lol :lol man, futurama used to be so good

It never stopped being good.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

GTA4 backlash? Doubt it.

I blame decision to make it DLC in the first place. Take Two expecting downloadable sequels from a fledgling online service selling like the original was like wanting to squeeze blood from a stone.

 

[Haunted]

The engine is awesome, but the gunplay and movement mechanics are very clunky to many people. If they work for you that's good, but a large portion of players seem to struggle with it.

Yep. Clunky cover system, and slow-walking through gunfights, otherwise having to hold down a face button to jog. Cars also didn't seem to have brakes that worked worth a damn. It shouldn't take an entire city block to slow down from what looks like a moderate speed.

Ah, those mechanics. Yes, movement definitely feels clunky and slow - having a run button (and worse, having to tap it quickly to sprint) was fucking retarded. There are definitelys more elegant solutions they could've chosen.

Probably the aspect of Red Dead Redemption I fear the most. The last trailer showed off the exact same clunky/slow movement controls that plagued GTA IV.

 

[SapientWolf]

GTA4 backlash? Doubt it.

I blame decision to make it DLC in the first place. Take Two expecting downloadable sequels from a fledgling online service selling like the original was like wanting to squeeze blood from a stone.

According to analysis conducted by Gamasutra staff writer Matt Matthews, Call of Duty: World at War map pack downloads have reached seven million.

If those CoD numbers are right then they suggest that it's the product responsible for lackluster sales, not the service.

I think a large number of people bought GTAIV just to screw around in a city sandbox environment and have no desire to tackle more story missions. Multiplayer allows them to do exactly that. That may be why GTAIV hasn't left the top 10 on XBL since its release.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

If those CoD numbers are right then they suggest that it's the product responsible for lackluster sales, not the service.

I think a large number of people bought GTAIV just to screw around in a city sandbox environment and have no desire to tackle more story missions. Multiplayer allows them to do exactly that. That may be why GTAIV hasn't left the top 10 on XBL since its release.

It's fun to point to one monstrously successful current series as a point for a series that's very clearly in the decline stage of its product cycle.

Forgetting the wide gulf between map pack downloads vs. a full fledged game, are you suggesting that a full GTA spinoff in the vein of Vice City or San Andreas wouldn't do any better than the DLC packs?

I said this when they announced it and i'll say it again now; XBLA, despite being the biggest of the console download services, is still too small a potential market to release full retail games on and expect them to perform like BnM's. GTA fatigue or backlash isn't the chief problem, the size of the available audience with access and interest is. Rockstar cut themselves off at the knees by releasing these primarily as DLC.

 

[rohlfinator]

I don't disagree with those observations, but I do wonder if people aren't overselling the backlash of a vocal minority to aggrandise their own dissapointment. There's been complaints about the gameplay and controls in non-top down GTAs since they started making non-top down GTAs and everytime there are people claiming that this time it will be the final straw and downfall of the series.

Yep. I haven't seen much indication of a GTA backlash in the general public, and the Live numbers quoted earlier support that.

GAF (or at least some vocal subset of GAF) always seems to tire of popular franchises much quicker than the general public, probably because we're more likely to play every entry of the series.

I blame decision to make it DLC in the first place. Take Two expecting downloadable sequels from a fledgling online service selling like the original was like wanting to squeeze blood from a stone.

Agreed... though I doubt they expected them to sell like the original. But yeah, the market for this type of expansion was pretty unproven, and they clearly overestimated it.

If those CoD numbers are right then they suggest that it's the product responsible for lackluster sales, not the service.

CoD is way more multiplayer-driven than GTA. A CoD player is going to be regularly logging into Live (to see the ads for the map pack) and is also going to be more pressured by the multiplayer community.

Also those CoD numbers are PS3 + 360, right?

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

Agreed... though I doubt they expected them to sell like the original. But yeah, the market for this type of expansion was pretty unproven, and they clearly overestimated it.

I'm not saying it would sell like the original, (that is, I didn't MEAN to say that) but the available DLC audience is much smaller than the B and M audience is. as of last count, only half of the 360 install base even take their console online. It's surely grown since that survey was done, but that's still a HUGE missed opportunity for loyalty sales.

 

[SapientWolf]

It's fun to point to one monstrously successful current series as a point for a series that's very clearly in the decline stage of its product cycle.

Forgetting the wide gulf between map pack downloads vs. a full fledged game, are you suggesting that a full GTA spinoff in the vein of Vice City or San Andreas wouldn't do any better than the DLC packs?

I said this when they announced it and i'll say it again now; XBLA, despite being the biggest of the console download services, is still too small a potential market to release full retail games on and expect them to perform like BnM's. GTA fatigue or backlash isn't the chief problem, the size of the available audience with access and interest is. Rockstar cut themselves off at the knees by releasing these primarily as DLC.

That's hard to know for sure. I wouldn't expect a disc based version of this to fly off the shelves either. The recent spinoffs just don't have the same hype and gravitas as the original release.

CoD is way more multiplayer-driven than GTA. A CoD player is going to be regularly logging into Live (to see the ads for the map pack) and is also going to be more pressured by the multiplayer community.

GTAIV is typically right behind CoD in live activity. Maybe Rockstar should consider catering to the multiplayer community.

 

[EternalGamer]

I'd say it is GTA backlash. The series refused to evolve beyond becoming geographically larger and improving the graphics. I still can't believe the press hyperbole surrounding GTA4. I can guarantee that the audience reaction was way more split. When GTA5 hits, I will not listen to reviews. I will rent/Gamefly it before I buy. I spent 20 hours playing GTA4 and finished the story and kept waiting for the game tha justified all that bullshit press.