Support NeoGAF

[SciencePilot]

Reading this thread, I get the impression that piracy is like some kind of "free" advertising. It's free in the sense that you don't have to have a marketing budget, but it's not free in the sense that you will have some number of lost sales. Looking at piracy in this matter, I can see why it tends to help niche games but hurt big budget games that actually do have marketing.

I think the problem with piracy comes from the fact that companies have no choice in the matter. They can choose whether or not to have a marketing budget, but they cannot choose whether or not to have piracy.

 

[wutwutwut]

Because it's a lot easier to have turn around from piracy to purchase if your game is a $10 downloadable game.

So in other words they found a better business model?

 

[Stumpokapow]

What a stupid comparison, people can't own a "cinema" version of a film and watch it whenever they want like they can a digital version of a game.

I own Super Meat Boy, and have no urge to buy a retail version.

Pity, the retail version has some really cool extras including a little dev diary about Team Meat's conception of difficulty in platformers throughout history. I wish I could share it with GAF, it's very cool.

It's also Steamworks as far as I know so you should have a separate code to gift someone else a Steam copy if you re-buy.

Oh, ok, you've pirated a ton of stuff and it's totally not like shoplifting! Cool! Thanks for letting us know, I'm glad it's not the same thing as stealing at all. That's totally not a self-serving line of thinking at all, no sir. Wow.

How is it self-serving for him?

He's a game developer. If his product's sales increased by 10% (IE if "sales lost to piracy" were purchases), he'd have about $150,000 in cash extra. That would have enough extra money to buy every single game he's ever pirated ten times over and still have tons left over to donate to charity to help atone for whatever you've felt he's done wrong.

If his argument is correct, his behaviour needs no absolution because it's harmless to him and to others. If the contrary is correct, he's been impacted significantly more by piracy than his piracy has impacted others.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

You know, as much as I agree with the sentiment that things have changed and that publishers/people in general need to reevaluate digital piracy and such...



Oh, ok, you've pirated a ton of stuff and it's totally not like shoplifting! Cool! Thanks for letting us know, I'm glad it's not the same thing as stealing at all. That's totally not a self-serving line of thinking at all, no sir. Wow.

Let's face it: piracy is "different" because it's easy.

It's different from stealing because nothing is lost

A exists in Man's Hands
Person steals A, A no longer is in Man's Hands

B exists in Man's Hands
Person pirates B, B is still in Man's Hands


Not stealing as the original product is not lost by the original owner.

 

[Dog Problems]

"They spend so much money trying to prevent it but they are wasting everyone's time. They are damaging their own businesses. Those gamers who got screwed by DRM problems? I guarantee those people are going to think twice before they buy another game from that publisher."

Damn right I am. I love these guys.

 

[Woo-Fu]

Reading through this thread, filtering out all the old tired arguments, I'm left with one conclusion:

Piracy isn't the problem, 50 million dollar development budgets are the problem.

 

[Takao]

So in other words they found a better business model?

A business model that doesn't work for the industry at large. Which is why my whole "packaged good" comment came to fruition.

 

[Orayn]

Let's face it: piracy is "different" because it's easy.

Piracy is different from theft because it actually is a different situation. Only when selling digital products is it possible for people to make an exact copy and distribute a theoretically unlimited number of duplicates for free. I'm not saying anything about the morality of it, but it's hard to deny that the implications are not exactly the same.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

It's different from stealing because nothing is lost

A exists in Man's Hands
Person steals A, A no longer is in Man's Hands

B exists in Man's Hands
Person pirates B, B is still in Man's Hands


Not stealing as the original product is not lost by the original owner.

what a new and exciting opinion we have here

You are still getting what Man has in his hands without paying what he is asking you.

 

[Stumpokapow]

You are still getting what Man has in his hands without paying what he is asking you.

Yes, no one is disputing that.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

Yes, no one is disputing that.

Right, but as different as that is from theft, I'm still having a hard time taking Team Meat man seriously when he's effectively saying it's ok because it's different from traditional concepts of theft. Yes, it's different, and yes, publisher attitudes need to change, but I still think that people who think that publishers should turn around and say it's alright for people to get things without paying are loony.

 

[subversus]

Reading through this thread, filtering out all the old tired arguments, I'm left with one conclusion:

Piracy isn't the problem, 50 million dollar development budgets are the problem.

they wouldn't be a problem without piracy, used sales and etc. but I agree. 10-20 million is the way it should be.

 

[wutwutwut]

A business model that doesn't work for the industry at large. Which is why my whole "packaged good" comment came to fruition.

Well maybe the industry needs to adjust then. Setting moral concerns aside, it is not the duty of the market to support every business model that content creators dream up of.

 

[SneakyStephan]

I don't agree with them

and in related news

BT forced to block access to Newzbin2



more here

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2011-07-28-bt-forced-to-block-access-to-newzbin2

If they try to force ISP's hands , people will just go back to forming trade circles like 20 years ago, nothing will change whatsoever.

So many babies here whinging about piracy when it's been around since the first book was printed.

Funny thing is books/cds/lps/games being handed around like a 5 dollar hooker introduced more people to the genres/formats than those 50 million dollar marketing campaigns will in a hundred years.

 

[sn00zer]

I don't think Ive met anyone whose pirated a game and bought it later.

 

[drhankmccoyphd]

I don't think Ive met anyone whose pirated a game and bought it later.

Pleasure to meet you.

 

[aeolist]

Right, but as different as that is from theft, I'm still having a hard time taking Team Meat man seriously when he's effectively saying it's ok because it's different from traditional concepts of theft. Yes, it's different, and yes, publisher attitudes need to change, but I still think that people who think that publishers should turn around and say it's alright for people to get things without paying are loony.

There's a difference between a publisher condoning piracy and a publisher deciding to not screw over their legitimate customers by avoiding draconian anti-piracy tactics.

That's what the discussion tends to be about and I find people who approve of any crazy DRM just as looney as you find people who think piracy isn't as bad as Hitler.

 

[Yanksfan]

I like how a studio who has never released a package good themselves suddenly think they're an expert on this.

1. They have.

2. Even if they hadn't, isn't one of their points that the field has changed significantly because of a DD environment? That there are different rules, thoughts and viewpoints on piracy as a result? I wouldn't say their views should be discounted just because they haven't released anything in retail (which they have) because they are taking a DD approach to their statements.

 

[Orayn]

Right, but as different as that is from theft, I'm still having a hard time taking Team Meat man seriously when he's effectively saying it's ok because it's different from traditional concepts of theft. Yes, it's different, and yes, publisher attitudes need to change, but I still think that people who think that publishers should turn around and say it's alright for people to get things without paying are loony.

I apart from the "I've pirated shitloads of stuff," confession, I don't think Team Meat is necessarily saying that piracy is okay, just that it's poorly understood and handled by many publishers.

 

[ArjanN]

I don't think Ive met anyone whose pirated a game and bought it later.

Hi.

 

[narcosis219]

I don't think Ive met anyone whose pirated a game and bought it later.

I know many, many people

 

[Mithos]

they wouldn't be a problem without piracy, used sales and etc. but I agree. 10-20 million is the way it should be.

Yeah because if there was no piracy or used sales EVERYONE OF THOSE would by a new copy, RIGHT?

WROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG!

 

[Steve Youngblood]

I apart from the "I've pirated shitloads of stuff," confession, I don't think Team Meat is necessarily saying that piracy is okay, just that it's poorly understood and handled by many publishers.

Yeah. Maybe he really is a jerk who's advocating that people steal stuff because they can, but I think the point is just to concede that this is a brave new world where people will do it because they can and not feel bad about it. Whether some people ponder exact definitions of piracy and physical theft and assert that they are, in fact, equivalent, many others -- be it intuitively or through self-deception -- feel that they are different.

Basically, the campaign to convince the public that piracy is as bad as theft ("you wouldn't download a car!") is a dud.

 

[Ghost Dad the Whip]

Those quotes just made me want to buy more team meat stuff than ever.

LFT-shirt

 

[XANDER CAGE]

There's a difference between a publisher condoning piracy and a publisher deciding to not screw over their legitimate customers by avoiding draconian anti-piracy tactics.

That's what the discussion tends to be about and I find people who approve of any crazy DRM just as looney as you find people who think piracy isn't as bad as Hitler.

Alright, great, Hitler reference. We're off to a great start here, thank you.

I don't think piracy is "as bad as Hitler", but I do find the comments of Mr. Team Meat incredibly self-serving. Of course he thinks piracy is different from stealing when he's also just admitted to pirating tons of stuff. It's a self-serving opinion. Piracy may not be taking physical product away from a seller but it is getting something for nothing, and to argue that it's simply free advertising for publishers just seems like a huge leap of logic.

I don't think pirates are double-Nazis, but I do sometimes think that people who justify it are missing the forest for the trees when they come up with justifications for the practice. I love a good bargain, but these days I try my best to pay for things I want to have. Even if it's not theft, I think piracy is generally wrong.

That being said, it's so damn easy and convenient I definitely think publisher attitudes need to change, because stupid always-on DRM and the like are not the solution. Lower game budgets is one option, lower prices is another. But I don't think a publisher will/should ever come out and say "oh, it's so easy for you guys to pirate this, please take our game without paying"

 

[Woo-Fu]

they wouldn't be a problem without piracy, used sales and etc. but I agree. 10-20 million is the way it should be.

Get rid of piracy it'd still be a problem, unless you're assuming that every pirated copy would be a sale. Not what I'd call a safe assumption.

Getting rid of piracy doesn't magically put enough money in the pocket of every gamer to buy every game that they might want to play. Getting rid of piracy doesn't do anything to reduce the competition in the marketplace. Doesn't do anything to reduce the many choices a person has when it comes to disposing of discretionary income.

People simply can't afford to buy every good game.
People simply don't have to the time to play every good game.

The success of the indie devs seems to make it appear that the route to success isn't giant budgets, it is good ideas. All the DRM in the world won't make a large budget smaller or a bad game great.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating piracy. Piracy is theft in my book. What I am advocating is for people to stop thinking that DRM is a wonder solution that will do anything to fix what is currently wrong with this industry. DRM is a necessary evil for the platform holders to entice publishers. For the publishers and developers it is just a waste of resources. DRM is a one-armed dutchboy trying to plug a dike made out of toilet paper.

 

[Orayn]

Yeah. Maybe he really is a jerk who's advocating that people steal stuff because they can, but I think the point is just to concede that this is a brave new world where people will do it because they can and not feel bad about it. Whether some people ponder exact definitions of piracy and physical theft and assert that they are, in fact, equivalent, many others -- be it intuitively or through self-deception -- feel that they are different.

Basically, the campaign to convince the public that piracy is as bad as theft ("you wouldn't download a car!") is a dud.

As have been a lot of the efforts to deter piracy directly, many of which (Shock! Surprise!) went about this by treating it exactly as theft. Worse still, those methods often make things worse for legitimate consumers.

 

[Petrie]

I don't think Ive met anyone whose pirated a game and bought it later.

Hell, my g/f had a friend send her a cracked version of Plants vs. Zombies, and she isn't even a casual gamer. She enjoyed it enough that she grabbed it off of Steam. You're completely wrong to think this isn't a common occurrence in every form of media.

 

[Burai]

they wouldn't be a problem without piracy, used sales and etc. but I agree. 10-20 million is the way it should be.

They still would. There just isn't enough consumer money out there to go around to justify 50mil budgets. Not unless we go with the 1 pirated copy = 1 lost sale argument. And that would be stupid.

There are too many games released, period. That's the true problem. Too many games with too much spent on making them and consumers happy to play the same handful of games all year 'round.

 

[SpaceDrake]

they wouldn't be a problem without piracy, used sales and etc. but I agree. 10-20 million is the way it should be.

They'd still be a huge problem because there's no way many of those games will ever BE popular enough to justify such budgets. Unless you still somehow think that each pirate is an absolute lost sale forever, in which case you'll never be convinced and this whole thread is pointless but whatev

 

[aeolist]

Alright, great, Hitler reference. We're off to a great start here, thank you.

Argue with the facts, not the metaphors.

Of course he thinks piracy is different from stealing when he's also just admitted to pirating tons of stuff. It's an incredibly self-serving opinion.

It's not an opinion. Piracy is not stealing. This is something that needs to stop being argued because it's objectively untrue.

Piracy may not be taking physical product away from a seller but it is getting something for nothing, and to argue that it's simply free advertising for publishers just seems like a huge leap of logic.

Not really, you can't argue that piracy doesn't generate some level of discourse and hype for a game that wouldn't exist without Bittorrent and Usenet.

Now, you can argue about whether that benefit is outweighed by people pirating who would otherwise have bought the game. This is a totally legitimate argument to have because the facts are inconclusive in either direction. You can't argue that piracy produces no benefits whatsoever.

I don't think pirates are double-Nazis, but I do sometimes think that people who justify it are missing the forest for the trees when they come up with justifications for the practice. I love a good bargain, but these days I try my best to pay for things I want to have. Even if it's not theft, I think piracy is generally wrong.

That being said, it's so damn easy and convenient I definitely think publisher attitudes need to change, because stupid always-on DRM and the like are not the solution. Lower game budgets is one option, lower prices is another.

I agree with all of this 100%. This is the kind of thing we need to be discussing because the hysteria and spin that are produced whenever this subject comes up do nothing but cloud the issue and further divide the community when it should be united against publisher malevolence.

 

[Speevy]

If I say, "I just pirated a game.", I'm a scumbag.

But if I say "I just pirated a game, with the intent of buying it later.", I'm a savvy consumer.

What if I pirate the game and within 5 minutes I decide I don't like it? I mean it's only 5 minutes. That's less than a demo! Maybe I'll just delete it from my hard drive or throw away the disc. The company should thank me for trying out their game.

I'll start trying out this philosophy at bowling alleys. I don't intend to steal your shoes or balls, and of course paying customers can have the lanes back.

All I ask is the chance to throw one strike before I decide if bowling is right for me.

 

[aeolist]

If I say, "I just pirated a game.", I'm a scumbag.

But if I say "I just pirated a game, with the intent of buying it later.", I'm a savvy consumer.

What if I pirate the game and within 5 minutes I decide I don't like it? I mean it's only 5 minutes. That's less than a demo! Maybe I'll just delete it from my hard drive or throw away the disc. The company should thank me for trying out their game.

I'll start trying out this philosophy at bowling alleys. I don't intend to steal your shoes or balls, and of course paying customers can have the lanes back.

All I ask is the chance to throw one strike before I decide if bowling is right for me.

Oh my god morality can sometimes be confusing and vague.

If you can't deal with shades of grey you should remove yourself from reality as soon as possible.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

Well, I'm not going to argue whether or not piracy is stealing, but I will say that piracy doesn't involve trying to get away from a cop across a parking lot in baggy jeans and Chuck Taylors.

 

[alr1ght]

don't you know every pirated game, every used game sale, and every game lent to a friend is a lost sale?

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

don't you know every pirated game, every used game sale, and every game lent to a friend is a lost sale?

So does that mean that buying games used is piracy, or stealing?

 

[alr1ght]

So does that mean that buying games used is piracy, or stealing?

was being facetious.

 

[carbonbased]

If I say, "I just pirated a game.", I'm a scumbag.

But if I say "I just pirated a game, with the intent of buying it later.", I'm a savvy consumer.

What if I pirate the game and within 5 minutes I decide I don't like it? I mean it's only 5 minutes. That's less than a demo! Maybe I'll just delete it from my hard drive or throw away the disc. The company should thank me for trying out their game.

riddle me this: what differentiates that from borrowing or renting the same game and then deciding not to purchase it (besides legality)?

 

[Speevy]

riddle me this: what differentiates that from borrowing or renting the same game and then deciding not to purchase it (besides legality)?

If you're going to remove the most obvious answer by putting it into parentheses, I can only answer common sense.

 

[carbonbased]

If you're going to remove the most obvious answer by putting it into parentheses, I can only answer common sense.

well then i hope you never speed, being utterly beholden to the law and all. it's pretty much a given you haven't smoked marijuana or done any underage drinking.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

I'll start trying out this philosophy at bowling alleys. I don't intend to steal your shoes or balls, and of course paying customers can have the lanes back.

All I ask is the chance to throw one strike before I decide if bowling is right for me.

I'm honestly not sure as to whether or not you think this is a good example to illustrate your point. I mean, I get what you're alluding to, but what am I reading here? Was this really the best you could come up with?

 

[Speevy]

well then i hope you never speed, being utterly beholden to the law and all. it's pretty much a given you haven't smoked marijuana or done any underage drinking.

I'm about to blow your mind. Haven't done any of the above.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

Argue with the facts, not the metaphors.

Don't use stupid fucking Hitler metaphors, then.

It's not an opinion. Piracy is not stealing. This is something that needs to stop being argued because it's objectively untrue.

Sorry, I disagree here. It is an opinion. I believe that if you are getting something for free that you are required to pay for, you are stealing. Not stealing like bread from a market, but you are getting something for nothing through illicit means.

Not really, you can't argue that piracy doesn't generate some level of discourse and hype for a game that wouldn't exist without Bittorrent and Usenet.

If you want me to argue with you stop telling me where I can and can't argue with you, haha. What level of discourse does piracy generate that can't also be generated through demos, shareware, and limited-time free play offers, like Steam's free weekends?

Now, you can argue about whether that benefit is outweighed by people pirating who would otherwise have bought the game. This is a totally legitimate argument to have because the facts are inconclusive in either direction. You can't argue that piracy produces no benefits whatsoever.

Oh phew, thanks, I'm glad I can argue that. Aww, but I can't argue that piracy produces no benefits? Darn. Again, I don't understand why pirated video games create more buzz than demos, videos, shareware, etc etc etc.

I agree with all of this 100%. This is the kind of thing we need to be discussing because the hysteria and spin that are produced whenever this subject comes up do nothing but cloud the issue and further divide the community when it should be united against publisher malevolence.

"Publisher malevolence" is kind of a funny term, but yes, publisher attitudes need to change. Treat the customer like a customer and a thief like a thief, and all that.

 

[carbonbased]

I'm about to blow your mind. Haven't done any of the above.

no actually i was dead serious about the smoking/drinking stuff

 

[Speevy]

I'm honestly not sure as to whether or not you think this is a good example to illustrate your point. I mean, I get what you're alluding to, but what am I reading here? Was this really the best you could come up with?

Not the best I could come up with, but I'm very tired.

 

[Fess]

Not stealing as the original product is not lost by the original owner.

Everything is bound to get digital soon or later. Saying that all that is digital is okay to just steal, just because the original version is still left, is just not right.

Right now digital TV is streamed to your house after you pay subscribtion.

Netflix and the likes streams movies to your house when you rent it.

Authors writes books waiting to get published and bought once you pay.

Articles and essays are written on home computers, most just sits there but some gets published either in magazines/books or on websites once a publishing deal is set.

People makes games and apps for mobile phones waiting to get published or downloaded by you once you pay them 99 cent.

People use digital cameras and make a living on selling photos to websites, magazines, advertising companies etc.

Artists make art using computers, they make concept and 3D art and assets for games, for comics, for movies and makes a living selling that stuff to companies making games that you hopefully buy sometimes.

Musicians make music using computers, selling their work to game companies like SquareEnix etc.

Is all this okay to steal according to you? Is it okay to share with friends? To share on net? What about publish yourself? Make money on it? I mean, the original is still there, nothing is gone.

 

[Pyrokai]

So what about all the people I know that only pirate games without purchasing? I can think of three friends of mine who do this. They seriously never buy games, but play pirated ones all the time.

I'm not saying Team Meat is wrong, but that's 3 anecdotal evidence accounts against them in my small sphere of influence.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

was being facetious.

So was I ;p

It's not an opinion.

You're right, the FBI won't raid your house over an opinion

Spoiler

unless you buy a lot of fertilizer

 

[Nemo]

How is it self-serving for him?

He's a game developer. If his product's sales increased by 10% (IE if "sales lost to piracy" were purchases), he'd have about $150,000 in cash extra. That would have enough extra money to buy every single game he's ever pirated ten times over and still have tons left over to donate to charity to help atone for whatever you've felt he's done wrong.

If his argument is correct, his behaviour needs no absolution because it's harmless to him and to others. If the contrary is correct, he's been impacted significantly more by piracy than his piracy has impacted others.

Eye for an eye

 

[remnant]

I wish they had said this before the game became available for purchase.

Oh well, all this story says to me is don't buy shit from team meat.