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Team Meat Talks Piracy.

Saty

Member
IGN has a sort of an interview with Edmund McMillen and Tommy Refenes on the subject, and their stance is pretty extreme:

McMillen believes that the more people who steal his games, the more will eventually buy them. He sees piracy as nothing more than a huge sampling exercise. "If the game gets pirated heavily, if it's a good game that people really like, they're going to either buy it eventually or they're going to tell other people about it. Either way it's just going to come back to a sale."
McMillen has no time for this "old" way of thinking. "The dinosaurs of marketing are really upset by piracy. They think it's literally stealing," he says. "They're old. That's really the reason. They're old and their ideas are old. They don't understand where we are now. They don't understand the mentality of people who are pirating things. They see them as thieves, the same people who go and shoplift. I don't f*@#ing shoplift but I have pirated sh@%-loads of stuff. Like it's just not the same, it's not the same thing at all."

Tommy Refenes adds, "They spend so much money trying to prevent it but they are wasting everyone's time. They are damaging their own businesses. Those gamers who got screwed by DRM problems? I guarantee those people are going to think twice before they buy another game from that publisher."
"Sh@% changed," says McMillen, warming to his theme. "Deal with it. Sh@% went digital and this is how it works now. It's really easy to copy and give to other people."

More comments at the link. They go on to mention how piracy is a sampling tool, saving them from doing a demo and about getting e-mails from ppl who pirated and then bought SMB.

http://pc.ign.com/articles/118/1184546p1.html
 
McMillen adds, "I'll tell you a story that is true. When Meat Boy came out on PC and torrents started going up on Pirate Bay, I would check, I had a friend of mine who said, 'congratulations, I just saw your game in the top 50 on Pirate Bay for games,' and I checked and we were 30th and I was depressed because it wasn't higher, because that's a measure of success."

Since then it has vastly outsold the supposedly better protected XBLA version..
 
butter_stick said:
I love it when people justify stealing by saying it doesn't count because it's digital.
That's not what they're saying at all. They're saying it's easier than ever in the digital age.
 
Really is a spot on attitude to have on the subject, you can't stop piracy because realistically the more you try the worse it gets. It is now a situation of adapt to the new circumstances or fall behind.
 
If the game gets pirated heavily, if it's a good game that people really like, they're going to either buy it eventually or they're going to tell other people about it. Either way it's just going to come back to a sale.

That or they'll just tell their friends where they pirated it from and the chain of not buying your game will continue. They're giving people way too much credit when they believe that someone that just got something for free will then turn around and pay for it just because they liked it.
 
Jonnyram said:
That's not what they're saying at all. They're saying it's easier than ever in the digital age.

"I don't f*@#ing shoplift but I have pirated sh@%-loads of stuff. Like it's just not the same, it's not the same thing at all."

IE "I can download music and movies without paying and that's fine and nothing like stealing movies or music from a store"

lilltias said:
It's not fucking stealing.

In b4 somebody posts that webcomic that shows how it's not actually stealing when you make a copy of something, so it's fine.
 
mr_nothin said:
I agree with them.
Dont ban me :(

You won't getting banned for agreeing that, yes, piracy exists, and it isn't going to go away. We all know that. :P

You might get banned if you agree that you pirate shit, though, lol
 
I don't agree with them

and in related news

BT forced to block access to Newzbin2

A British judge has made a landmark ruling which could set precedent for future rulings on piracy, net neutrality and file-sharing.

Justice Arnold's ruling has forced UK infrastructure provider BT to block all access to the file-sharing site Newzbin2, which aggregates content from Usenet sites for download by subscribers. A large proportion of that content is illegally pirated copyright material.

The case was brought by the Motion Picture Association, in an attempt to prevent illegal downloads of film and television programs, but the ruling clearly has possible repercussions for the piracy rife in the games industry, too.

"In my judgement it follows that BT has actual knowledge of other persons using its service to infringe copyright," said Justice Arnold in his ruling statement. "It knows that the users and operators of Newzbin 2 infringe copyright on a large scale, and in particular infringe the copyrights of the studios in large numbers of their films and television programmes.

"It knows that the users of Newzbin 2 include BT subscribers, and it knows those users use its service to receive infringing copies of copyright works made available to them by Newzbin 2."

By forcing an ISP to comply with an access ban, based on a perceived knowledge of assisted copyright infringement, Arnold could well have opened the floodgates on a potential raft of similar rulings.

BT welcomed the ruling, claiming that its clarification of the rules was "helpful".

"It clearly shows that rights holders need to prove their claims and convince a judge to make a court order," a BT spokesman said. "BT has consistently said that rights holders need to take this route. We will return to court after the summer to explain what kind of order we believe is appropriate."

Originally, the laws and technology - known as Cleanfeed - used in the ruling were designed to prevent access to child pornography. Many believe that commandeering those mechanisms to deal with piracy is a step in the wrong direction.

"Currently CleanFeed is dealing with a small, rural road in Scotland," said James Blessing of the Internet Service Providers Association in an interview with BBC Radio 4.

more here

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2011-07-28-bt-forced-to-block-access-to-newzbin2
 
Fuck pirates, including Team Meat.

I'm sick to death of this whole contrarian attitude towards piracy that's been rearing it's head more and more lately.

No, it may not technically be the same as theft where someone ends up being deprived of their property but you can't argue that piracy results in the deprivation of revenue to artists and content producers.

Bu-bu-but people like our game and will buy it anyway!! Bullshit asshole.

Ultimately it boils down to why the fuck should I have to pay for the same game that you're downloading for free?

It's unsustainable.
 
people who see filesharers are "legit thieves" similar to the ones on the street have issues

we might as well lock up/fine 99% of people below 30
 
SolidSnakex said:
That or they'll just tell their friends where they pirated it from and the chain of not buying your game will continue. They're giving people way too much credit when they believe that someone that just got something for free will then turn around and pay for it just because they liked it.

If you read the article they say they get lots of emails from people that admit they did exactly what you say it's unlikely to happen.

They have some sort of evidence for that claim, do you have for the opposite?
 
AShep said:
Fuck pirates, including Team Meat.

I'm sick to death of this whole contrarian attitude towards piracy that's been rearing it's head more and more lately.

No, it may not technically be the same as theft where someone ends up being deprived of their property but you can't argue that piracy results in the deprivation of revenue to artists and content producers.

Bu-bu-but people like our game and will buy it anyway!! Bullshit asshole.

Seems to have worked pretty well for them.
 
daviyoung said:
They might care when they start undertaking more expansive projects.

indeed

AShep said:
Fuck pirates, including Team Meat.

I'm sick to death of this whole contrarian attitude towards piracy that's been rearing it's head more and more lately.


.
 
It seems a lot of indi developers are taking similar stances towards piracy, They just don't give a shit about it.
 
they get it.

DRM just harms legitimate customers.

the worse it is, the worse it is for people who want to pay for a product.

pirates... they don't worry about any of that crap!

why should the people who don't pay get a better experience than the ones who do?
 
Regardless of what you think of Team Meat's opinions, it's definitely good for consumers considering you don't have DRM preventing you from playing their games. My actual legit retail-bought Windows 7 has completely spazzed out due to it's draconian DRM and it's not telling me that my copy of Windows 7 isn't genuine.

This sort of shit really makes me annoyed with anyone who doesn't agree with Team Meat's policy. It's just not justifiable to punish paying customers regardless of the consequences of not having DRM, in my opinion. Thus, I agree with them whatever my stance on piracy may be in general.
 
AShep said:
Fuck pirates, including Team Meat.

I'm sick to death of this whole contrarian attitude towards piracy that's been rearing it's head more and more lately.

No, it may not technically be the same as theft where someone ends up being deprived of their property but you can't argue that piracy results in the deprivation of revenue to artists and content producers.

Bu-bu-but people like our game and will buy it anyway!! Bullshit asshole.
Do you hate Gabe Newell as well?
 
I pretty much share this philosophy, by the by

People can either pay us or not, it's in their hands to support us and the original developers of the games we localize. If they do, great; if not, we go out of business and they have fewer games to play. We trust our fans to do the right thing and keep us in business, and we respect that by not putting in any DRM in our games (aside from what's built-in to Steam, and it seems like most of our customers don't give a shit about that and we make sure to offer alternatives for those who do).

DRM in this day and age is beyond pointless. I'm glad the dudes who are pretty close to being the biggest indie devs in the world at this point (outside of, like, Notch) are saying it loud and clear.
 
I think the reality is that piracy affects different products differently. It's cool that a small indie team is open to not caring too much about DRM, and they see it all as a positive thing, since it works out for them. But there's definitely a case to be made that piracy isn't beneficial. This goes double for software applications. Many small businesses pirate the shit out of office software applications all the time, and even more would if there wasn't actual legal action taken by groups like the BSA to hit them hard when caught.

Piracy is not theft, but it's definitely not "just" marketing either. It might be for a 15 dollar game which goes on sale for as low as 5 dollars occasionally, since stuff like that is very easy to buy. But that changes dramatically as the price goes up.
 
Saty said:
They go on to mention how piracy is a sampling tool, saving them from doing a demo and about getting e-mails from ppl who pirated and then bought SMB.

True story. I pirated the game and then bought it (but didn't send any email). I wish Ubi had the same attitude towards piracy and DLC and then the game prices went down. As EA said, people will soon pay that much no more, something has to happen. Also, make payers have some additional value over pirates, that's the way to go, DRM will ALWAYS be eventually passed by.
 
evlcookie said:
It seems a lot of indi developers are taking similar stances towards piracy, They just don't give a shit about it.
"Hey guys we're on your side!! Fuck those big corporations who want to stop you getting your game on!"

It's all positioning bullshit. Team Meat wouldn't exist without paying customers so it's disgusting that they choose to shit on them by endorsing people downloading their game for free.
 
AShep said:
Fuck pirates, including Team Meat.

I'm sick to death of this whole contrarian attitude towards piracy that's been rearing it's head more and more lately.

No, it may not technically be the same as theft where someone ends up being deprived of their property but you can't argue that piracy results in the deprivation of revenue to artists and content producers.

Bu-bu-but people like our game and will buy it anyway!! Bullshit asshole.

Ultimately it boils down to why the fuck should I have to pay for the same game that you're downloading for free?

It's unsustainable.

You would be amazed at how many pirates would not buy the game if they had to pay. Each download does NOT equal a sale lost.
 
TheOddOne said:
We'll see about that when your projects can't break even and then go to GDC to complain about it.
So you're saying at that point they'll blame piracy like other lame devs rather than themselves for making a non seller and going over budget on development?
 
I don't understand it. Trying out games, that's what demo versions are for. Pirating is and should remain illegal. What would come out of it otherwise? You have the equal choice of taking a game for free OR pay money for it? What is this shit? As a paying customer, I wouldn't want that kind of behavior from a game maker. Non-working DRM aside.
 
SpaceDrake said:
I pretty much share this philosophy, by the by

People can either pay us or not, it's in their hands to support us and the original developers of the games we localize. If they do, great; if not, we go out of business and they have fewer games to play. We trust our fans to do the right thing and keep us in business, and we respect that by not putting in any DRM in our games (aside from what's built-in to Steam, and it seems like most of our customers don't give a shit about that and we make sure to offer alternatives for those who do).

DRM in this day and age is beyond pointless. I'm glad the dudes who are pretty close to being the biggest indie devs in the world at this point (outside of, like, Notch) are saying it loud and clear.

you publish extremely niche games. People who buy them understand that if they don't pay then no games will be localized.

If you were publishing some big project you'd need more people to buy thus you'd need more casual audience who don't give a damn about profits, because they care about their wallets only.
 
elrechazao said:
So you're saying at that point they'll blame piracy like other lame devs rather than themselves for making a non seller and going over budget on development?
You never know how people will react.
 
AShep said:
Fuck pirates, including Team Meat.

I'm sick to death of this whole contrarian attitude towards piracy that's been rearing it's head more and more lately.

No, it may not technically be the same as theft where someone ends up being deprived of their property but you can't argue that piracy results in the deprivation of revenue to artists and content producers.

Bu-bu-but people like our game and will buy it anyway!! Bullshit asshole.

Ultimately it boils down to why the fuck should I have to pay for the same game that you're downloading for free?

It's unsustainable.

Not all of the time it doesn't, no. Out of the people who pirate a game, some of them were probably never going to buy it anyway whether they pirated it or not. So although they pirated it, had they not they still might not have bought it anyway. It will result in *some* revenue loss from lost sales, but this publisher view that the ratio of pirated copies to lost sales is 1:1 is ridiculous.
 
This guy doesn't get it as much as the people on the other side of the argument. What a dumbass.

The real answer lies in the middle. Piracy is a form of stealing, it does potentially lead to a sale loss, however - enforcing DRM and other security mehtods isn't going to solve anything. Piracy should be curbed by providing value and entertainment to your product at a reasonable price. There is nothing wrong with looking at piracy as an issue, but deal with it intelligently and use methods that prevent piracy, while not damaging the experience and ease of use for legitimate buyers.

Embrace piracy - yeah...okay. That's just as dumb as saying piracy is the root of all evil.
 
PaulLFC said:
Not all of the time it doesn't, no. Out of the people who pirate a game, some of them were probably never going to buy it anyway whether they pirated it or not. So although they pirated it, had they not they still might not have bought it anyway. It will result in *some* revenue loss from lost sales, but this publisher view that the ratio of pirated copies to lost sales is 1:1 is ridiculous.
I never said it was 1:1 so I don't understand your point.

The act of piracy in general impacts the bottom line, not necessarily every individual act.
 
I agree that DRM does punish the wrong people, but it's silly of them to encourage piracy. OF COURSE it results in lost sales. The problem is that piracy is just inevitable. It just is. I believe there is no practical way to prevent piracy, and there never will be. So they've resigned to just bend over and take it, and I guess that's fine for them.
 
I personally think the perspective changes a bit when you talk about game developers/publishers who spend millions on the development of their game(s).
 
Team Meat are assholes, you can't compare the development cost of an indie game to an AAA game.

For an indie game is easy to be profitable even if the game is massively pirated, it doesn't works the same way for a game that costs 50+ M$ to develop
 
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