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Team Meat Talks Piracy.
- Thread starter Saty
- Start date
This is actually one of those weird pirate mentalities that I've witnessed. I know people who will just download every single new release regardless of what it is. At best, they'll install it, play for 5 minutes, and then never touch it again. A lot of pirates simply "collect" these downloads and have no intention of really investing time into them. I don't understand this myself, but it is very common.Jiguryo said:
From my own small sample, I can definitely say that, when a game they really care about comes along they will end up buying it. Most of the games they pirate are not titles they would ever purchase as they have no real intention of playing them. I realize it's hard not to view it as a lost sale, but it really is not.
I certainly don't believe it's the right thing to do by any means and it definitely doesn't justify piracy, but I also don't feel it's as bad as some companies seem to think. Of course, I don't have the same data they have either, but I suspect some of them view every download as a lost sale which just isn't true.
carbonbased
Member
nailed it!wutwutwut said:
a huge factor not being considered by the folks up in arms over these comments is the value of pure word-of-mouth. just because a pirated copy can't be directly compared to either a lost sale or a future sale doesn't mean it doesn't lead to future sales. what Team Meat is arguing here is that piracy is a form of marketing, and one that can end up costing substantially less than 'real' marketing at that. the supposed lost sales from pirated copies can bring in far more money than otherwise when those pirates spread the word about your product.
this is some genius shit and probably the biggest reason (alongside the almighty steam sale) as to why Valve is such a dominant force in pc gaming.AppleMIX said:
Minimum Rage
Banned
Jiguryo said:
But pirating is an easy and normal way to do it.
I bought crysis1 in 2007 or 2008. I liked it. One of my favourite games of that time.
Then they released crysis2. 2 hours laters it's downloaded & installed. If it's good I buy it, if it sucks I don't buy it.
Why should I feel bad because of this proces? The publishers/devs don't offer a decent service for me to check out their game.
Herbspiceguy
Member
Most people want to pay for a quality product of their interest/passion, especially after having a first hand experience. This includes "pirates". I never got the 'either or' mentality on this issue.
angular graphics
Banned
Jiguryo said:
Not at all, going with a whore means you desperately need it.
Pirates don't desperately need to game.
The Faceless Master
Member
so you're saying that if somehow, someway, there was some super awesome unbreakable DRM in Deux Ex, your friend would buy it?subversus said:
AND YOU BELIEVE HIM?
Minimum Rage
Banned
AShep said:
No I can't. I already spend the maximum amount I can on buying games.
Seraphis Cain
bad gameplay lol
Actually, this article reminds me of how I got into Monster Hunter.
A friend of mine pirated Monster Hunter Freedom Unite. He then brought his PSP over to my house and showed it to me. I then bought the game on a whim, mostly because he wanted someone to co-op with. I got waaaaay into the game, and eventually got three other friends into it. All three bought copies of MHFU, and two of them eventually went on to buy copies of Monster Hunter Tri as well.
So from that one copy of MHFU my friend pirated, Capcom sold four copies of MHFU and two copies of MH3.
Not saying situations like this are common, but it does happen.
A friend of mine pirated Monster Hunter Freedom Unite. He then brought his PSP over to my house and showed it to me. I then bought the game on a whim, mostly because he wanted someone to co-op with. I got waaaaay into the game, and eventually got three other friends into it. All three bought copies of MHFU, and two of them eventually went on to buy copies of Monster Hunter Tri as well.
So from that one copy of MHFU my friend pirated, Capcom sold four copies of MHFU and two copies of MH3.
Not saying situations like this are common, but it does happen.
The Faceless Master
Member
yea, there are a ton of people who pirate games AND NEVER EVEN INSTALL THEM, much less play them. they just download them because they can!dark10x said:
like people who buy games and have a backlog they'll never clear, only without buying...
angular graphics
Banned
Jiguryo said:
It's not a comparison, it's an analogy.
There's no other way I can think of to explain to you why people pirate products that aren't terribly interested in and would never buy them in the first place.
This. According to Team Meat pirates are the cool kids who tell all the other kids what they should buy so they can continue to play it for free. Team Meat might not care where their money comes from but I don't wanna be ripped off by wanna be trend setters just because I'm fair enough to pay up.AShep said:
And people who end up buying the game... Stop being pirates for that instance of stealing maybe. But often they pay lower prices so they DO rip off the early buyers.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
Yo numbskulls. Yes, a developer cops to pirating stuff in the OP. It's still bannable to admit to piracy--and I'm not talking "a friend showed me his burnt copy" or "i used to pirate stuff when i was 13", I'm talking "Hey guys I pirate my games no ban it's all good I buy them later".
This isn't some sort of wasteland thread where the rules don't apply. Seriously.
This isn't some sort of wasteland thread where the rules don't apply. Seriously.
Minimum Rage said:
There is a difference, though, and it comes from degradation of the product.
I could be wrong here, but I assume that a pirated version of the game still looks and performs at the same level as its legitimate counterpart.
Is someone has a shitty cassette recording from a radio station of a song they like, they might still go buy the album for a higher quality experience, or to hear the rest of the songs on the album.
If someone pirates an exact copy of something, there is little incentive for them to legitimize their piracy with a purchase.
Bottom line, for me, is this: whether one would have bought the game or not, a product was created. Even if it is digital, it still cost money to develop. Just because one is not stealing a physical copy doesn't mean that they're not stealing.
Honestly I think a lot of devs/publishers can stop some piracy if they give a demo or trial with every game.
Not many people want to jump in and spend money on a game they haven't tried unless it's a well established series.
Piracy, as sad as it is, is a good way to try a game before you buy it. Obviously some people are assholes that don't buy even after trying and enjoying a game, but there's a lot of people that do buy after trying a game.
DRM like the bullshit that Ubisoft pulls prevents nothing and just fucks over the consumer. It's totally ridiculous.
Not many people want to jump in and spend money on a game they haven't tried unless it's a well established series.
Piracy, as sad as it is, is a good way to try a game before you buy it. Obviously some people are assholes that don't buy even after trying and enjoying a game, but there's a lot of people that do buy after trying a game.
DRM like the bullshit that Ubisoft pulls prevents nothing and just fucks over the consumer. It's totally ridiculous.
IrishNinja
Member
butter_stick said:
maybe.
on the other hand? i wouldn'tve enjoyed games like Grim Fandago or I have no mouth and i must scream or the fan translation of Mother 3, or heard stuff from the Nujabes that wasn't released here/is only available used or seen some flicks/anime without borrowing/renting/copying etc because these goods were not made available to me at retail. as a result, though? ive purchased things in far & wide genres i'd not've even known existed, much less experienced, had i stuck solely by your metric here.
it's not a rationalization nor does it apply to the next man, but i'm but one of the many consumers overlooked when needlessly applying a platitude to a vast % of the population by deeming them THIEVING CRIMINALS. i likewise get you're likely an intelligent poster not favoring the dichotomy this creates with oppressive DRM either, but that's where a view like this systematically seems to lead, vs what Team Meat is saying here. i long for a day when we can discuss these things here on a scale, rather than the polar ends of I PIRATE EVERYTHING (banned) and I PAY $60 EVEN WHEN ITS STUPID BECAUSE SUPPORTING BAD BUSINESS MODELS IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN ACTING LIKE AN EDUCATED CONSUMER AND FUCK YOU FOR DISAGREEING etc etc, again not saying you embody these things but i promise you, by the time the regular morning crowd is here, we'll be at page 5 with several people telling me in a randian fashion that borrowing and renting makes me the problem. sorry to make you the start of this slippery slope, frankly.
carbonbased
Member
LOST SALES!!!!!111AShep said:
he just admitted in that very post that he uses it as a metric for judging games worthy of spending money on, so obviously the answer is no. i don't see how his methods are any worse than borrowing a copy of a friend's game or going and renting it before deciding to purchase tbh
it's truly shocking that someone like you who came across as fervently anti-union in the pachter thread would be so beholden to corporate will on this issue.
mxgt said:
Right. This is why XBLA is great, every game released has a trial. Steam's demo section is abysmal, and the less said about PSN the better.
On bigger titles a demo should be mandatory too. Unless publishers like the 'ignorance is bliss, people will buy it off PR reviews, piracy is to blame' stance.
The Faceless Master said:
of course I believe him. He bought Assassins Creed 2 because he got tired of waiting when people pirate it properly and he bought Bad Company 2 because there's no use in playing SP campaign and he enjoyed beta a lot.
These are only two games he bought this gen.
Minimum Rage said:
"Easy and normal" is the root of the problem here. Some people are too desensitized to the damage piracy does to industry, in direct or indirect ways.
angular graphics said:
You say potato, I say potato.
If a person isn't terribly interested in such game, then why even PLAY it? If they're on the fence, there's always rental or playing it at a friend' s place.
They'd better off playing stuff they actually care for! The thing is that people who pirate games will *always* try to justify their actions, skipping from point to point.
The Faceless Master
Member
i don't understand this post.Takuya said:
wutwutwut said:
No, but instead they get to spend no money.
Your argument, fundamentally, boils down to "Get the game for free, pay for all these extra features". Which is potentially a viable business model, but it's a business model which the developers don't get any *choice* about embracing.
A corollary to your argument, therefore, becomes "If your game doesn't really benefit from any such online features, you're screwed!". If the industry as a whole was to embrace this model, it could kill off entire *genres*. Or at least force people into adding extraneous features rather than making the core game better, just to meet this "legitimate copy premium" standard.
It's an extreme viewpoint; I'm not arguing it as a definite factor. But it's the sort of thing which should be considered before completely embracing this as something that's totally fine.
darkpaladinmfc
Member
Steam DRM doesn't stop piracy at all.Takuya said:
IrishNinja
Member
darkpaladinmfc said:
how do you possibly quantify this statement.
You're actually agreeing with me. I used the word "pay" intentionally. With a free alternative, your friend doesn't feel like it's worth to pay for the game. Games are products, and every product has a perceived value. If the perceived value is equal or superior to its price, you got a sale. If it's not, you don't.subversus said:
Now, since the free alternative is unfortunately going to stay (so you can't rule it out and pretend it hypothetically doesn't exist, it does and we better deal with it) regardless of how we act, what's the best way to incentivize paying? This is the actual issue at hand.
SpaceDrake
Member
extralite said:
That's not actually what they're saying at all if you read the article even a little
Pirates who don't pay are still Uncool Losers who we make frowny faces at, but it's the guys who pick the game up for free and then decide to give us money like the rest of our beloved paying customers who are cool
(We love our paying customers they are awesome and keep us fueled with ramen and coca-cola
But the real point is, DRM does nothing to stop piracy, so why in the game of goozex even bother to include it at all, it's just a waste of money and effort
And if you're asking "well, if there's no DRM and it's easy to pirate, why shouldn't I?!", then the responding question becomes
How badly do you want to see your favorite devs and this industry continue
Because in the end we're all just begging for your money and support, even those of us who don't openly admit to it
Whether or not you actually do so is up to you
warbegins said:
Neither of those methods seem like adaquate ways of judging games. If you spend money on a game I believe you would be inclined to play more just because you payed for it, and you may have more fun past the opening parts (especially this gen where slow starts are common), and end up loving it. If you judge just based on the opening sequences through borrowing you could get bored and stop. I would consider that a lost sale.
blitzcloud
Banned
So are they literally saying that they don't mind me downloading it?
They are just two devs, so yeah... one of them doesn't mind it which is already 50% the company.
PS: I won't download it, nor buy it. I simply don't like it
They are just two devs, so yeah... one of them doesn't mind it which is already 50% the company.
PS: I won't download it, nor buy it. I simply don't like it
I'd add "without impacting legit customers" though. Which, unfortunately, is not easy. And considering every DRM gets eventually bypassed, the situation we have is that it's actually us paying customers that get the short end of the stick.subversus said:
This means it's not, right now, the best way to act.
They have to spend extra time looking for pirated copies, worrying about malware someone might have snuck in, taking care of backups, getting cracks to work and so on. So it still costs people a non-zero amount of value, it's just not in a form that the developer benefits from.mclem said:
Well, some business models work better than others. That's been a fact for as long as capitalism has existed.
Not necessarily. Every game can offer infinite downloads and almost every game can offer regular free DLC, for instance. Amnesia is a hardcore single-player game, yet it offered a lot of additional content for free. I'm sure that must have driven quite a few sales.
The market has already said this is how it needs to work.
witchedwiz
Member
this over and over...interview said:
invasive drm?
nothankyou
Their reasoning would work if people would be honest. But reality is that people aren't. In theory it works. Just like communism. In reality it doesn't because humans are shitty.
I can be all my fucking life that people generally don't buy a game they just pirated when they suddendly like it. And this is how it SHOULD work. You enjoy the product somehow? you pay for it.
I can be all my fucking life that people generally don't buy a game they just pirated when they suddendly like it. And this is how it SHOULD work. You enjoy the product somehow? you pay for it.
Mithos
Member
Excellent example, I have quite a few friends that do this regularly, download movie/series/game/music (aka pirating) and later down the line when price is right they add it to their collection buy picking up a legit copy.Stumpokapow said:
Yeah good luck with that...Jocchan said:
The Faceless Master
Member
the focus should be on making something fun for customers, not un-fun for non-customers.subversus said:
angular graphics
Banned
Jiguryo said:
I know plenty of people that turn on the TV and watch a couple of films they don't particularly care about, till it's time to go to bed. Why? WHY NOT?? Really now, you don't know how humans work?
And why do you think they don't pay (and play) for the games they REALLY care about? You seem to believe people either buy all their games or pirate all of them which is far from the truth.
IrishNinja
Member
OniShiro said:
again, it's highly possible this problem speaks more to the model (rising costs + not bothering to realistically pursue other revenue streams/meet changing consumer demands/etc) than the scapegoating that piracy = lost sales creates.
subversus said:
the panel also would've accepted Clover.
soldat7 said:
unrealistic out-of-pocket dismission to a valid topic, fuck yeah!
The Faceless Master said:
ding ding ding