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[Takuya]

Do you honestly think that:

Sales gained due to piracy > sales lost due to piracy?

Fucking really?

Haha holy shit dude what world do you live in.

Sale gained is a probability. You don't lose a sale due to piracy, but you probably lose a potential customer.

In the end, nobody can say whether or not you 'gain' anything from piracy (other than exposure to your software). But the person who pirates your game already has it, and doesn't need to fork out the cash to legitimately/legally own a copy of your product anymore.

 

[:Motorbass]

In this modern time where more and more things go digital, we should appreciate their value in this form more and not less than before.

 

[THRILLH0]

I was very clear, copying isn't stealing anything from anyone.

I never said that if people copy games instead of buying them somehow their makers will make money. But they will definitely not lose money either.

So if ten people hire you to paint their house but then 3 of them decide not to pay you, you're cool with that because you're not actually losing money, you're just not making it right?

 

[angular graphics]

Stop talking out the side of your mouth.

Do you think piracy impacts revenue in an overall positive or negative manner?

Simple question yet you continue to tap-dance around it.

Do you think you can make a definitive statement about how piracy impacts revenue for any and all games?

 

[Ranger X]

I was very clear, copying isn't stealing anything from anyone.

I never said that if people copy games instead of buying them somehow their makers will make money. But they will definitely not lose money either.

Ok, if there's 100 people to buy your product out there. If 90 of them are copying it, you receive money from 10 people enjoying your product instead of 100. There is indeed no money loss.
And I am open minded there, I am speaking of people that ENJOYS the product. What's the last pirated game you had and that you bought as soon as you enjoyed it?

 

[Torraz]

no, it's also due to used sales and rentals.

in addition to ever more awesome sales and quicker price drops.

On a fun note, I just found out that renting games is supposed to be illegal where I live (the Netherlands).

 

[THRILLH0]

Do you think you can make a definitive statement about how piracy impacts revenue for any and all games?

Im very happy to make the definitive statement that in the overwhelming majority of cases, more sales are lost than gained due to piracy.

Now, for the 4th time, are you willing to answer the question or not?

 

[Steve Youngblood]

I would not be able to try it before I buy. I could choose to also not buy. What would you do if you couldn't test drive a car? You would therefore steal it?
In the real world, you're not entitled to benefit from anything that is created out there. Life doesn't work that way. You have to make with the stuff you can't reach, can't afford. --- or steal it. You guys sounds like princesses and the world ows everything to you...

I think you're assuming that I'm making an argument that I'm not because it makes for an easier position to tear apart.

Here's the situation I'm talking about. Consumer X has a low to mid-tier PC and wants to buy and play Game Y. However, it's supposed to be a demanding title, and their PC barely clears the minimum requirements. There's no demo. They're not buying the game until they confirm that it will run satisfactorily on their machine. What should this consumer do?

Now, I'm not suggesting that this is a clear cut case in favor of piracy. Perhaps you're right in that piracy is never justified. But in these kinds of examples, I don't understand the benefit for the company making the product in advocating this position.

 

[MMaRsu]

they get it.

DRM just harms legitimate customers.

the worse it is, the worse it is for people who want to pay for a product.

pirates... they don't worry about any of that crap!

why should the people who don't pay get a better experience than the ones who do?

Yuuuuup. Agreed on all accounts. And I say hey don't buy those games from publishers who harm buying customers because they put draconian DRM in their games. If your a legit customer you should get the best treatment, not get puked on by some washed up hooker.

 

[Shurs]

Im very happy to make the definitive statement that in the overwhelming majority of cases, more sales are lost than gained due to piracy.

Now, for the 4th time, are you willing to answer the question or not?

He'll just answer your question with another question.

 

[Jocchan]

Yes, of course.

Unfortunately it's extremely hard to setup for SP games at the moment.

Yeah good luck with that...

Yep, hence my point: it's not the best way to act.

 

[AppleMIX]

Im very happy to make the definitive statement that in the overwhelming majority of cases, more sales are lost than gained due to piracy.

Now, for the 4th time, are you willing to answer the question or not?

What is your evidence for this statement?

I stopped caring about piracy a long time ago. It's going to happen, no matter what.

There are research reports that suggest both positive and negative effects for various media. There is not enough conclusive evidence for giving one true answer. I would advise you to stop with your strawman attacks since you don't seem to appreciate receiving the same treatment in return.

Thank you.

 

[Hyoushi]

Stop talking out the side of your mouth.

Do you think piracy impacts revenue in an overall positive or negative manner?

Simple question yet you continue to tap-dance around it.

There are research reports that suggest both positive and negative effects for various media. There is not enough conclusive evidence for giving one true answer. I would advise you to stop with your strawman attacks since you don't seem to appreciate receiving the same treatment in return.

 

[angular graphics]

Im very happy to make the definitive statement that in the overwhelming majority of cases, more sales are lost than gained due to piracy.

Now, for the 4th time, are you willing to answer the question or not?

And we are done here.

On the other hand I can't make any kind of definitive statement nor do I believe anyone can.

 

[Ranger X]

Here's the situation I'm talking about. Consumer X has a low to mid-tier PC and wants to buy and play Game Y. However, it's supposed to be a demanding title, and their PC barely clears the minimum requirements. There's no demo. They're not buying the game until they confirm that it will run satisfactorily on their machine. What should this consumer do?

The problem in the case here is obviously the publisher not giving away a demo. But that can't justify stealing either. Apply this logic to anything else and it doesn't work. Why would it work for games? How are they less of a product someone made for you?
In the case here, what's supposed to happen is that the person should risk buying the game or simply not buying it. The fact they want to play the game doesn't weight anywhere. I want alot of things in life and I can't have all of it. That's simple REALITY. Raise money and build a new computer. Play something else, etc. There's tons of stuff to do. Lastly, not buying that game would be extremely benefital to everybody. If games without a demo wouldn't sell, publishers would make demos mandatory in their marketing plan.

 

[blitzcloud]

I was very clear, copying isn't stealing anything from anyone.

I never said that if people copy games instead of buying them somehow their makers will make money. But they will definitely not lose money either.

Indeed, it is not stealing.

It would be like having a worker for your company, not paying him at the end of the month/contract and telling him he can't prove he would've had another work in the meantime as excuse.

Intangible things gonna be intangible.

So, are you losing money if you're the worker? Nope, not technically, the employer didn't steal money from you. Are you losing money? Yeah, probably you could've been working elsewhere in the meantime. Can you prove it? Probably not.

 

[Minsc]

Do you honestly think that you can tell how many sales a game lost due to piracy?

If you do, please share with us, the formula.

Iron Lore Entertainment probably has a part of the formula.

 

[Card Boy]

I don't understand why people pirate, it seems like a hassel. You run the risk of keyloggers, virus's, malware, trojans, worms and the cops to deal with.

I have 180 games on Steam, and bought 95% off my games during sales. PC games are so cheap, its very cheap to do right thing. Consoles games on the other hand.....

 

[Jocchan]

Indeed, it is not stealing.

It would be like having a worker for your company, not paying him at the end of the month/contract and telling him he can't prove he would've had another work in the meantime as excuse.

Intangible things gonna be intangible.

So, are you losing money if you're the worker? Nope, not technically, the employer didn't steal money from you. Are you losing money? Yeah, probably you could've been working elsewhere in the meantime. Can you prove it? Probably not.

Uhm, are you comparing not buying a product to not respecting a contract?

 

[blitzcloud]

Iron Lore Entertainment probably has a part of the formula.

I just read it on the wikipedia... it's sad that some are so affected by it. People don't treasure nor value anything nowadays. Beliefs are a joke, helping people that surround you is overrated. paying for what you consume is awkward. internet certainly has been a beast in the growth of this disease.

Jocchan, the thing is a contract is there and there are laws that protect you so this doesn't happen. A breach of contract and a copyright violation. Doesn't seem like they are so far away as you're pretending. What I'm trying to prove, in a way, is that except for physical stuff, you really are going to have a hard time demonstrating anything about losses, and that the exploiters aren't the game companies as the pirates spout all around the globe: They are the exploiters.

 

[G0DLIKE]

I want your babies, Team Meat.

 

[jgminto]

Piracy is not a gigantic problem for the industry. Most people who pirate the games regularly were never buy games and it is not a huge amount. What the devs and publishers have to worry about is people that were interested in the game but were pissed off by the actions of the creators.

Anyone who listens to TotalBiscuit would have heard him talking about giving the pirates the moral high ground. If they can justify pirating the game they are more likely to do so. In my opinion the most damaging cause of piracy is pissing off the fans. Let's just take BF3 for example. If a fan was really pissed off with EA for the exclusive weapon preorder pack they could say that they were never going to buy the game anyway and just pirate it. If the publisher can stop this then they will keep a chunk of their sales.

I doubt regular pirates are more damaging than pre-owned sales.

 

[Ivan A Nguyen]

There's a side effect to pirating that I don't think many people talk about. It's the bandwidth usage. When it's free, there is no reason to limit how much you download. Just a few years ago you could torrent stuff all day and even if you never intend to play it, it's yours.

Now we are suffering from bandwidth caps that hurt legitimate users. If people paid like they were suppose to, then these caps wouldn't need to be in place. Companies wouldn't want to prevent you from spending money.

The sad truth is, all this "free" (pirated) stuff people are getting online is just hurting everyone.

 

[angular graphics]

Indeed, it is not stealing.

It would be like having a worker for your company, not paying him at the end of the month/contract and telling him he can't prove he would've had another work in the meantime as excuse.

Intangible things gonna be intangible.

So, are you losing money if you're the worker? Nope, not technically, the employer didn't steal money from you. Are you losing money? Yeah, probably you could've been working elsewhere in the meantime. Can you prove it? Probably not.

Yes, but a developer couldn't have been "working elsewhere in the meantime" like the aforementioned worker. Their job is to make games and they are making them for the paying customers.

If there are people who do not pay for them, so be it, the developer didn't put the effort to make the games for them in the first place; the developers weren't deceived that these people would pay them only to find out it was a lie and they wasted their time with them instead of doing something else.

 

[AppleMIX]

Iron Lore Entertainment probably has a part of the formula.

Yes, Iron Lore unable to secure funding for there next project had nothing to do with it.

Clearly piracy was the problem, even though they made a profit off Titan quest.

Edit: There was many factors involved in IL closing.

 

[Emitan]

I want your babies, Team Meat.

I want them first. Nice to see developers who understand the world isn't the same as it was 20 years ago.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

But that can't justify stealing either. Apply this logic to anything else and it doesn't work. Why would it work for games? How are they less of a product someone made for you?

This is lofty fluff that clarifies nothing. Anything else? What else would I be applying this "logic" to. For that matter, we're not talking about anything else. We're talking about a specific example.

Now, again, I'm not trying to convince you that the person in this example should be allowed to download the title without any legal ramifications. However, I do think it presents an example where, though I would't really advocate doing it, I also don't know what the big deal is. However, I don't have a black and white view of the world, either. I don't see the benefits in establishing easily defined moral guidelines.

 

[blitzcloud]

This is lofty fluff that clarifies nothing. Anything else? What else would I be applying this "logic" to. For that matter, we're not talking about anything else. We're talking about a specific example.

Now, again, I'm not trying to convince you that the person in this example should be allowed to download the title without any legal ramifications. However, I do think it presents an example where, though I would't really advocate doing it, I also don't know what the big deal is. However, I don't have a black and white view of the world, either. I don't see the benefits in establishing easily defined moral guidelines.

My brain hurts in a good way when I read your posts.

 

[Ranger X]

Yes, but a developer couldn't have been "working elsewhere in the meantime" like the aforementioned worker. Their job is to make games and they are making them for the paying customers.

If there are people who do not pay for them, so be it, the developer didn't put the effort to make the games for them in the first place; the developers weren't deceived that these people would pay them only to find out it was a lie and they wasted their time with them instead of doing something else.

In your world there is paying people (participating in the system) and non-paying people, entitled to benefit from that stuff for free? LOL
Great logic. In reality there's only one thing: People creating stuff for people and people giving them their due if they want to benefit from that stuff. This simple reality is there since forever, even before money was invented. Yet, it doesn't exist in your mind in matter of videogames or anything you pirate it seems.

 

[UrbanRats]

people who see filesharers are "legit thieves" similar to the ones on the street have issues

we might as well lock up/fine 99% of people below 30

I bet someone just got a boner reading this.

I want your babies, Team Meat.

Might aswell torrent them out.

 

[Mithos]

So if ten people hire you to paint their house but then 3 of them decide not to pay you, you're cool with that because you're not actually losing money, you're just not making it right?

More like AShep makes paint to cover 10 houses, but only 6 people hire you to paint the other 4 sees what ingredients are in you paint, and gets it free elsewhere and paint their own house.

 

[VGChampion]

I still think most of these indie developers just say this to make the annoying crowd happy with them. If I ever made a game, comic, movie, etc... I would totally say piracy is okay just because I don't want to piss off the kids who still download.

 

[MMaRsu]

There's a side effect to pirating that I don't think many people talk about. It's the bandwidth usage. When it's free, there is no reason to limit how much you download. Just a few years ago you could torrent stuff all day and even if you never intend to play it, it's yours.

Now we are suffering from bandwidth caps that hurt legitimate users. If people paid like they were suppose to, then these caps wouldn't need to be in place. Companies wouldn't want to prevent you from spending money.

The sad truth is, all this "free" (pirated) stuff people are getting online is just hurting everyone.

Wtf, are you saying bandwith caps are due to piracy????

Because here in The Netherlands we haven't had bandwith caps in years ( thank god ).. I know some US or was it Canada that reinstated bandwith caps from some ISP's, something that I find is honestly ridiculous. It's just another way to make money and screw over your customer.

Like KPN, a big dutch company which has now increased bandwith costs for mobile internet so damn much. It used to cost nothing, now that people are actually using it they wanna charge you more for it.

 

[Raonak]

Piracy is stealing if you had the intention of buying a game, but then pirated it instead, then thats full on stealing. A stolen sale.

in other circumstances, it's debatable.

 

[SiriusTexra]

I used to pirate a few games, buy the ones I really liked, but once I joined steam, I've paid for almost 200 games since late 2009, and many of them games I've never played yet.

It's gone from the extreme of not paying a whole lot, to dishing out too much money for games and not playing them.

i.e. everyone needs a Steam Sale and a gift happy friend in their life. That, and a bit of a paycheck. I know piracy is a problem here in Australia for us PC gamers, mainly because PC retail is literally 90 - 100 dollars.

Again, joined steam, saw the prices, now I buy games like it's groceries.

 

[THRILLH0]

There are research reports that suggest both positive and negative effects for various media. There is not enough conclusive evidence for giving one true answer. I would advise you to stop with your strawman attacks since you don't seem to appreciate receiving the same treatment in return.

Oh please. There is research that will tell you that cigarettes are good for you if you want to find it. Fact is that most substantial, independent financial analyses come to the conclusion that piracy negatively impacts the bottom line of a business.

Are you kidding me with the strawman stuff? At least I'm willing to form an opinion one way or the other as opposed to this wishy-washy "weeeeell, we don't know conclusively if piracy us good or bad so yay Team Meat!" fluff.

 

[Joel Was Right]

I'm surprised the mods haven't reacted to the OP considering if any Gaffer made those comments here they'd meet the banhammer. In a way, doesn't this article break the T&C of GAF?

 

[TheSeks]

Did... did a game developer just admit to piracy?

OMG BANNED ON GAF. BAN BAN BAN.

In any case, they're right about DRM screwing legit buyers and those legit buyers thinking twice. The only reasonable form of "DRM" is shutting offline from pirates, but even then pirates will eventually crack the online so why bother? Try to get as many sales from legit people as you can by treating them with respect, I feel.

 

[Feature]

Fuck pirates, including Team Meat.

I'm sick to death of this whole contrarian attitude towards piracy that's been rearing it's head more and more lately.

No, it may not technically be the same as theft where someone ends up being deprived of their property but you can't argue that piracy results in the deprivation of revenue to artists and content producers.

Bu-bu-but people like our game and will buy it anyway!! Bullshit asshole.

Ultimately it boils down to why the fuck should I have to pay for the same game that you're downloading for free?

It's unsustainable.

But how does it cost you revenue if someone who pirates a game wouldn't buy it anyway?

 

[Goldmund]

Team Meat are assholes, you can't compare the development cost of an indie game to an AAA game.

For an indie game is easy to be profitable even if the game is massively pirated, it doesn't works the same way for a game that costs 50+ M$ to develop

The more I hear this argument, the more willing I am to consider following analogy a little more than lugged in: indie developers are to AAA developers as Michaelangelo carving his David out of marble is to cheap workers assembled to shatter another giant rock to pebbles, making way for another expansion to some sovereign's palace they are to build as well.

Sure, infinitely more work was done by the uncountable workers and uncountably more eyes are going to see the new, bigger palace from afar than Michelangelo's work. Still, I'm only going to pity those who are responsible for the existence of the prior. I will value their work of countless lives less than that of a single one.

 

[Kabuki Quantum Lover]

Cool, he really does get it, as he's excusing my rampant piracy.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Are you kidding me with the strawman stuff? At least I'm willing to form an opinion one way or the other as opposed to this wishy-washy "weeeeell, we don't know conclusively if piracy us good or bad so yay Team Meat!"

Having an opinion on something necessitates weighing in on the implications of it in a strictly binary fashion?

 

[balladofwindfishes]

To bring up a non-gaming software piracy situation...

I was once told by an Adobe rep at school that they share somewhat Team Meat's theory.

Adobe figured that by allowing students and start-ups to pirate their products, in the long run, they would get more money as those companies grew and those students went on to make their own design studios.

The price of entry is so high, it makes learning the complicated programs difficult. But with piracy, the barrier of entry is non-existant, so people are more easily able to learn the programs and be more receptive to possible updates and new versions which they could possibly buy eventually.

 

[blitzcloud]

Piracy is stealing if you had the intention of buying a game, but then pirated it instead, then thats full on stealing. A stolen sale.

in other circumstances, it's debatable.

The problem is that the seed of piracy has been inserted so deep inside in our society, and some people even forget that there's the option of a purchase. They immediatly go to download it.

The other day in a thread of another forum, once dude said he was gonna try Amnesia DD, he downloaded it. I congratuled him for stealing from an indie dev studio of 5 developers. he felt offended, but I don't care. Thing is, later they did a poll on the very same forum, and the rates clearly shown that people BUY games when they are FORCED to experience some parts of it, like the multiplayer. In this case, xbox360 or PS3.

So it appears humans (many of them) only know how to do the correct thing when there's a whip.

To bring up a non-gaming software piracy situation...

I was once told by an Adobe rep at school that they share somewhat Team Meat's theory.

Adobe figured that by allowing students and start-ups to pirate their products, in the long run, they would get more money as those companies grew and those students went on to make their own design studios.

The price of entry is so high, it makes learning the complicated programs difficult. But with piracy, the barrier of entry is non-existant, so people are more easily able to learn the programs and be more receptive to possible updates and new versions which they could possibly buy eventually.

Yeah well, but adobe still forces you to pirate it. At least autodesk is offering like... literally for free... all the software for students.

I always thought that way about programs that require a learning curve... it's the most intelligent thing for them to do. Learn the program down to the roots, be a future consumer. We can wait.

 

[MMaRsu]

Piracy is stealing if you had the intention of buying a game, but then pirated it instead, then thats full on stealing. A stolen sale.

in other circumstances, it's debatable.

What if you were planning to buy the game, then pirated it, then you thought it was sooo good you just had to own it so you bought it .

Not saying I do this, but obviously it happens. It does happen that way with movies to me..and shows most of the time.

 

[Ranger X]

This is lofty fluff that clarifies nothing. Anything else? What else would I be applying this "logic" to. For that matter, we're not talking about anything else. We're talking about a specific example.

I failed to express what I wanted to say then. My logic applies to everything. Everything a human is making for another human. Be it you create clothes for somebody, a car, pair of shoes, a videogame, it's the same thing. It's someone making something FOR someone else. If someone does something for you what happens? You give them their due. This basic logic was there even before money. It was always there and it's still there today. The fact X dude wants you to try their stuff before buying or not is a side topic for me. The simple reality is that people are making stuff so you don't have to. Therefore you give them what they are asking in return OR you don't benefit from what they are doing for you. You also have the option of stealing. This is what applies to everything, videogames included.

 

[wutwutwut]

To bring up a non-gaming software piracy situation...

I was once told by an Adobe rep at school that they share somewhat Team Meat's theory.

Adobe figured that by allowing students and start-ups to pirate their products, in the long run, they would get more money as those companies grew and those students went on to make their own design studios.

The price of entry is so high, it makes learning the complicated programs difficult. But with piracy, the barrier of entry is non-existant, so people are more easily able to learn the programs and be more receptive to possible updates and new versions which they could possibly buy eventually.

I've heard the same from a former Adobe manager, along with the figure of approximately 83% of Photoshop installs being pirated.

 

[AdventureRacing]

no, it's also due to used sales and rentals.

Yes piracy, used sales and rentals are the only reason games big budget games are losing money. Here's a hint, if your game is having problems with people renting instead of buying or waiting for a used copy it's either because your game isn't interesting enough to buy new or you're over pricing your product.

I'm sick of seeing these things blamed when companies are losing money because of their terrible business practices and overpriced and sub par products.

 

[Ledsen]

Steam made pirating obsolete for me, because it's better in every way. I've got well over a hundred games on Steam and GOG combined that I happily paid for. Gabe is completely right, provide a better service than the pirate sites and people WILL buy your product. What's extremely weird is that companies don't seem to understand this.

 

[drhankmccoyphd]

Steam made pirating obsolete for me, because it's better in every way. I've got well over a hundred games on Steam and GOG combined that I happily paid for. Gabe is completely right, provide a better service than the pirate sites and people WILL buy your product. What's extremely weird is that companies don't seem to understand this.

Pretty much my point of view as well.