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Team Meat are assholes, you can't compare the development cost of an indie game to an AAA game.

For an indie game is easy to be profitable even if the game is massively pirated, it doesn't works the same way for a game that costs 50+ M$ to develop

Don't make expensive games if you are to whine?

 

[THRILLH0]

What about him saying that a pirate usually pirates because he gets a better experience from a pirated game instead of a bought one?

Current implementations of DRM are indeed an issue but it doesn't justify piracy.

 

[darkpaladinmfc]

Current implementations of DRM are indeed an issue but it doesn't justify piracy.

Don't you think it's stupid that in some cases a pirate can have a better experience than a legitimate customer?

 

[IrishNinja]

In b4 somebody posts that webcomic that shows how it's not actually stealing when you make a copy of something, so it's fine.

sorry if logic bothers you?

point is, these guys get it, and are ahead of the curve for doing so. the bullshit answer to public shareholders that every torrent downloaded = a sale lost is part of why we are where we are with DRM and $60 games, rather than a market that competes to benefit the consumer.

the archaic mentality that the market is clearly leaving behind = RIAA circa 2006, much less today. steam, companies like atlus, etc = itunes. it's not nearly as complicated as PR speak makes it.

It's all positioning bullshit. Team Meat wouldn't exist without paying customers so it's disgusting that they choose to shit on them by endorsing people downloading their game for free.

WHOOSH

 

[subversus]

Don't make expensive games if you are to whine?

But people want to make expensive games with high production values because not everything has to be some pixelated 2d sprite platformer. Why they shouldn't make these games if some assholes choose to steal rather than pay?

 

[Tomat]

Current implementations of DRM are indeed an issue but it doesn't justify piracy.

Crappy DRM shouldn't be supported either though.

 

[AppleMIX]

Team Meat are assholes, you can't compare the development cost of an indie game to an AAA game.

For an indie game is easy to be profitable even if the game is massively pirated, it doesn't works the same way for a game that costs 50+ M$ to develop

Not every indie game sells like Minecraft.

Hell, Frictional Games was working at minimum wage for months up until the release of Amnesia: the Dark Decent.

 

[duckroll]

Don't you think it's stupid that in some cases a pirate can have a better experience than a legitimate customer?

Yes. DRM is largely useless. But that doesn't mean pirates are something worth cheering about. I say the best way to fight piracy is to make a good game with awesome community features. That way no decent game fan has any reason to pirate your game. If they do, then they're not decent people. In which case, whatever.

 

[-PXG-]

Team Meat actually gets it. Good shit.

 

[SpaceDrake]

They might care when they start undertaking more expansive projects.

No they won't, you don't seem to understand that the "biggest" indie successes of the past few years have made back their development budgets many, many times over

Like English Recettear - just English Recettear, never mind the "fame effect" we managed to generate for EGS in Japan that's translated into thousands more direct sales for them - has repaid Recettear's development costs something like half an order of a magnitude over. And Recettear was already in the black before we ever came on board. Can't give more specific figures because confidentiality and whatnot but it's in that ballpark

And Recettear was frankly one of the smaller indie releases of 2010

If my napkin math is right Team Meat could easily finance a $3-5 million dollar game off of what they've earned from just their little $15 platformer and still have plenty left over to be financially secure for a long while

It really isn't about product difference between AAA and indie, piracy simply is a phantom, it all comes down to how convenient it is to purchase a title, McMillan and Refenes aren't just talking out their asses, they're undoubtedly looking at the exact same metrics I am

I don't understand it. Trying out games, that's what demo versions are for. Pirating is and should remain illegal. What would come out of it otherwise? You have the equal choice of taking a game for free OR pay money for it? What is this shit? As a paying customer, I wouldn't want that kind of behavior from a game maker.

Well it's up to you

You can pirate a game, sure, we won't stop you

But if you don't support us financially, you're one more step toward us not being able to work on any more games and having to either leave the industry or die in the streets

So the question becomes

Do you feel what we're worked on is worth anything

And do you feel a need to support that

 

[Minimum Rage]

Team Meat are assholes, you can't compare the development cost of an indie game to an AAA game.

For an indie game is easy to be profitable even if the game is massively pirated, it doesn't works the same way for a game that costs 50+ M$ to develop

Maybe that's the mistake of big publishers. They invest millions in a game with great graphics, but usually very boring gameplay.

And then they wonder why games like Bulletstorm don't make them any money. Nobody is going to buy that turd of a game. And those who did feel ripped off.

Indie developers use their imagination instead of market research when they start developing.

Games like Frozen Synapse, Meatboy, Braid, ... prove that people don't care about fancy graphics. I'm sure I don't. Instead of wasting all their resources to graphics, they should invest more time and money in interesting gametypes/great AI/randomness/possibility for user created content.

But no, all those millions go into scripted events and cut scenes...

 

[alstein]

That or they'll just tell their friends where they pirated it from and the chain of not buying your game will continue. They're giving people way too much credit when they believe that someone that just got something for free will then turn around and pay for it just because they liked it.

That's poor pirates. Many of the folks I know (personal ancedote I know) who were big pirates in the 90s, when they got jobs, they started paying for things.

The biggest threat to game devs isn't piracy, but a shit economy in general that lowers incomes and turns customers into pirates (which I've also seen as people have gone broke)

There will always be some shitheads who have money and pirate left and right, those are the folks that are worth targeting, as well as the folks who try to pirate off piracy.

 

[angular graphics]

Current implementations of DRM are indeed an issue but it doesn't justify piracy.

Piracy doesn't justify draconian DRM either, but certain publishers don't care much about it.

 

[Zomba13]

Regardless of what you think of Team Meat's opinions, it's definitely good for consumers considering you don't have DRM preventing you from playing their games. My actual legit retail-bought Windows 7 has completely spazzed out due to it's draconian DRM and it's not telling me that my copy of Windows 7 isn't genuine.

This sort of shit really makes me annoyed with anyone who doesn't agree with Team Meat's policy. It's just not justifiable to punish paying customers regardless of the consequences of not having DRM, in my opinion. Thus, I agree with them whatever my stance on piracy may be in general.

lol. Mine does that like once every few months.

Anyway, I agree with the DRM stuff. If DRM fucks up the game for a legit buy they may not buy anymore of your products or may even turn to piracy (because pirates don't have to put up with that shit). With pirates they'll pirate stuff anyway.

 

[THRILLH0]

Don't you think it's stupid that in some cases a pirate can have a better experience than a legitimate customer?

The impact that DRM has on the average gamer's "experience" is minimal.

Even so, just because you don't like it you don't have the right to break the fucking law.

If you're a pirate then you're freeloading off the back of legitimate customers because the game wouldn't exist for you to rip off in the first place if it weren't for them.

Why the hell do you deserve to play a game for free that I'm out 60 bucks for?

 

[wutwutwut]

I don't understand it. Trying out games, that's what demo versions are for. Pirating is and should remain illegal. What would come out of it otherwise? You have the equal choice of taking a game for free OR pay money for it?

Is the choice really equal? Do pirates get access to infinite hassle-free downloads, access from anywhere in the world, regular updates, leaderboards, comparing times with friends, Super Meat World...?

With services like Steam, legit customers normally have a vastly superior experience to pirates. That is how you fight piracy -- by providing a better product to legit customers, not through broken DRM schemes.

 

[butter_stick]

sorry if logic bothers you?

point is, these guys get it, and are ahead of the curve for doing so. the bullshit answer to public shareholders that every torrent downloaded = a sale lost is part of why we are where we are with DRM and $60 games, rather than a market that competes to benefit the consumer.

the archaic mentality that the market is clearly leaving behind = RIAA circa 2006, much less today. steam, companies like atlus, etc = itunes. it's not nearly as complicated as PR speak makes it.

I'm fully aware that every download isn't a lost physical sale. But you've got to be batshit stupid to believe that a substantial proportion of piracy is based on the idea of "trying it out", and then purchasing the game as a reward to developers if the player enjoys it.

It's like the DRM excuse. DRM is a losing battle, and should probably just be abandoned, but it is not a reason why people pirate. People pirate because they want to get something and don't see enough benefits to paying for it. Publishers like Valve have spent their time on making their paid product vastly superior to the pirated product, which is the correct approach to take. Just throwing your hands up and saying "aw shit people are gonna pirate anyway lets make excuses for it" is retarded.

 

[subversus]

So the question becomes

Do you feel what we're worked on is worth anything

And do you feel a need to support that

and if people just don't ask themselves these questions? Like they saw the game, they pirated it, end of story. They don't think about who made it and if a developer has money to finance another game.

 

[Metal Gear?!]

Fuck pirates, including Team Meat.

I'm sick to death of this whole contrarian attitude towards piracy that's been rearing it's head more and more lately.

No, it may not technically be the same as theft where someone ends up being deprived of their property but you can't argue that piracy results in the deprivation of revenue to artists and content producers.

Bu-bu-but people like our game and will buy it anyway!! Bullshit asshole.

Ultimately it boils down to why the fuck should I have to pay for the same game that you're downloading for free?

It's unsustainable.

I take it your avatar is creative commons licensed?

 

[CecilRousso]

I have yet to be convinced that any kind of DRM that´s only DRM actually works. From the simplest online activation like the ones in Telltale´s episodic games to Starforce or UbiDRM. I have yet to read any arguments for it that doesn´t involve counting downloaded torrent-files.

There is only one thing that actually works in terms of getting people who otherwise would pirate the game to actually buy it: Released it in an attractive package. They put the game on Steam, priced it right and continued to support it after release as much as they could. Result = profit.

If I´m interested in a game that at most cost 14€, and is often on sale for 50% or 75%, and is sold on a plattform that adds value to me, and where the purchase is only 3-4 mouse clicks away, then I would have to be a very cheap person to look elsewhere.

 

[Diablohead]

I don't f*@#ing shoplift but I have pirated sh@%-loads of stuff. Like it's just not the same, it's not the same thing at all."

Uh? it's still stealing something.

 

[THRILLH0]

Piracy doesn't justify draconian DRM either, but certain publishers don't care much about it.

Oh cry me a fucking river. It always makes me laugh when people invoke terms like draconian when discussing DRM.

Like I said, what makes you more deserving than anyone else of playing a game for free?

Surely you concede that paying customers are a prerequisite for any game to exist so why should they have to pay while you don't?

 

[alstein]

One other theory, I think the current state of the PC market, with its oversupply of games and strong downwards price pressure , also reduces piracy. DD gets much of the credit for this.

With more games out there, it's easier to be satisfied enough with your games not to pirate, and prices are low enough that there's less incentive to pirate.

Draconian DRM is punished enough these days I think- how many games with Draconian DRM sell well on PC? There's enough games out there- that folks like Ubisoft aren't needed.

 

[butter_stick]

Uh? it's still stealing something.

People that have grown up downloading music have convinced themselves it's totally fine.

 

[angular graphics]

But people want to make expensive games with high production values because not everything has to be some pixelated 2d sprite platformer. Why they shouldn't make these games if some assholes choose to steal rather than pay?

I didnt say to make 2D games.
It's one thing to make a $10M game and another to make a $30M one.

With piracy or not, a $30M game might not make its money back.

 

[Auto_aim1]

Why the hell do you deserve to play a game for free that I'm out 60 bucks for?

This.

Why is it cool for someone to get the game for free in the name of marketing, when I'm paying $60 to support a game or developer. Team Meat shouldn't charge anything for their next game and follow this business model. Lets see how it works out for them.

 

[alstein]

People that have grown up downloading music have convinced themselves it's totally fine.

I think the success of DD in gaming has proven that it's possible to turn pirates into customers, provided you can make the legit product better then the pirate product.

That may not apply to music though, and I would argue that it doesn't.

 

[Raonak]

I don't like annoying DRM, but i also dislike piracy.

Well, they're just making small, cheap games; so people are less likely to pirate plus people have a more generous attitude towards indies.
I can't see piracy effecting them that much.

I dout they would be singing the same tune if they ever made a big budget game.

 

[Lafiel]

Piracy is not theft, but it's definitely not "just" marketing either. It might be for a 15 dollar game which goes on sale for as low as 5 dollars occasionally, since stuff like that is very easy to buy. But that changes dramatically as the price goes up.

Yeah, you usually see that kind of mentality from musicians who have their products priced in that same exact price range, but for games priced $50 and up, i think you rarely see someone pirating a game just to sample it and then buying it afterwards for that price, unless it's a multiplayer title.. or of course they buy it months later after it's heavily discounted on a DD store like steam.

 

[Jocchan]

But people want to make expensive games with high production values because not everything has to be some pixelated 2d sprite platformer. Why they shouldn't make these games if some assholes choose to steal rather than pay?

If not enough people are willing to pay for expensive games with high production values (except very few big hitters), it means there is not enough people willing to pay for expensive games with high production values (except very few big hitters). It's actually that simple. If someone isn't willing to pay, he's not a lost customer. He's a customer you never had in the first place.

I think the reality is that piracy affects different products differently. It's cool that a small indie team is open to not caring too much about DRM, and they see it all as a positive thing, since it works out for them. But there's definitely a case to be made that piracy isn't beneficial. This goes double for software applications. Many small businesses pirate the shit out of office software applications all the time, and even more would if there wasn't actual legal action taken by groups like the BSA to hit them hard when caught.

Piracy is not theft, but it's definitely not "just" marketing either. It might be for a 15 dollar game which goes on sale for as low as 5 dollars occasionally, since stuff like that is very easy to buy. But that changes dramatically as the price goes up.

Yep, definitely.

 

[Minimum Rage]

Uh? it's still stealing something.

No. If I download a random game without paying for it, the devs won't notice. They don't suffer from it.

You could say they do suffer from it, because they don't receive my money. But I wouldn't spend any money on it anyway. So nothing has changed. Because I already spend all my money I can to buying games I like.

Downloading a game is not the same as me going into your house and grabbing a ps3 game from your desk.

It's the same as people used to do in the 80's & 90's when they used cassettes to record music from the radio. OMG THEY ARE NOT PAYING FOR THE MUSIC THEY MUST BE STEALING!!!!

 

[Shurs]

That or they'll just tell their friends where they pirated it from and the chain of not buying your game will continue.

Yep.

 

[butter_stick]

I think the success of DD in gaming has proven that it's possible to turn pirates into customers, provided you can make the legit product better then the pirate product.

That may not apply to music though, and I would argue that it doesn't.

The issue is creating a reason to pay for games. I have no problem paying for a game through Steam, because I like the service it provides. Having the game in an always available library, achievements, etc. That stuff adds up to an experience I feel fine paying for. The opposite end would be if I was told to just pay to download an .exe file, or saw a link to it on Piratebay. There's no difference in the experience. It's purely based on your morals. It's not justifiable to pirate it, but the fact there's no advantage to paying for it is what's going to be an issue.

Music is the same way. Files from iTunes or What.cd are no different (apart from What's being better ). So you create a system like Spotify and trying and change people's expectations of what their money is spent on.

 

[SpaceDrake]

and if people just don't ask themselves these questions? Like they saw the game, they pirated it, end of story. They don't think about who made it and if a developer has money to finance another game.

Then they were never, ever our customers to begin with

Pretty much every hardcore pirate I've ever known hasn't given a shit about where their games come from and never bought a game to start with, we'll never reach those people so why try

And hell, sometimes you DO reach them when you really blow their socks off

You aren't going to "force" someone to pay you money, no matter how hard you try, not without using physical violence, this is a very old real life lesson

 

[angular graphics]

Oh cry me a fucking river. It always makes me laugh when people invoke terms like draconian when discussing DRM.

Like I said, what makes you more deserving than anyone else of playing a game for free?

Surely you concede that paying customers are a prerequisite for any game to exist so why should they have to pay while you don't?

Why do you think that several pirates won't buy the game if they like it?

Because that's exactly what happens for their game according to Team Meat.

If you have proof for the opposite please cite it like they did.

 

[Jiguryo]

You could say they do suffer from it, because they don't receive my money. But I wouldn't spend any money on it anyway. So nothing has changed. Because I already spend all my money I can to buying games I like.

If you wouldn't spend money on it, it probably means you don't care enough to play it. If you don't care enough to play it, then why bother getting an illegal copy?

 

[IrishNinja]

I'm fully aware that every download isn't a lost physical sale. But you've got to be batshit stupid to believe that a substantial proportion of piracy is based on the idea of "trying it out", and then purchasing the game as a reward to developers if the player enjoys it.

It's like the DRM excuse. DRM is a losing battle, and should probably just be abandoned, but it is not a reason why people pirate. People pirate because they want to get something and don't see enough benefits to paying for it. Publishers like Valve have spent their time on making their paid product vastly superior to the pirated product, which is the correct approach to take. Just throwing your hands up and saying "aw shit people are gonna pirate anyway lets make excuses for it" is retarded.

that's not what i said, though. to elaborate: sorry to further muddy this topic with crazy analogies (before the used auto dealership etc invade) BUT

your mentality is not very different from a society trying to illegalize/regulate prostitution, the oldest crime since getting money for nothing and your chicks for free. piracy is going to happen. your mentality lends itself to oppressive DRM and presuming people interested in your product are criminals, because your system is entirely binary: pay an overpriced, standardized amount, or rent/borrow/download/etc and give nothing back and be a parasite.

you know what's cause more pirates to pay for games than platitudes like this and DRM? steam sales, price slashes and humble indie bundles. think about that. i'm not trying to legitimize shit; i'm trying to take PR talk and a disastrous business model and show that a middle ground has long since been established, and it's not where you're pointing towards.

 

[Seraphis Cain]

So what I want to know is, are Team Meat preemptively banned from GAF now? :lol

 

[subversus]

If not enough people are willing to pay for expensive games with high production values (except very few big hitters), it means there is not enough people willing to pay for expensive games with high production values (except very few big hitters). It's actually that simple. If someone isn't willing to pay, he's not a lost customer. He's a customer you never had in the first place.

I absolutely don't agree with this. My friend will pirate Deus Ex Human Revolution on the day it's released. I asked him if he'd buy it if it wasn't available for free and he said: "definitely. But since it's available for free I don't see a reason to buy it." And this attitude is common among all people I know - from all countries, be it developed countries or developing ones.

 

[SpaceDrake]

Why is it cool for someone to get the game for free in the name of marketing, when I'm paying $60 to support a game or developer.

Because you are a cooler brosef than the pirates and you're willing to make sure we can keep making our titles, you are rad, also if you purchased from Steam or something you get free automatic patching, possible Steamworks support depending on the title and a bunch of other stuff pirates wouldn't get so

You are rad, my man!

Team Meat shouldn't charge anything for their next game and follow this business model. Lets see how it works out for them.

You're kind of misunderstanding what they're saying here, though, the point isn't that they should release their game for free, they're just acknowledging that DRM is pointless and that tons of people CAN get the game for free no matter what Team Meat or anyone else does

The onus to support developers always comes down to the individual person, it's been that way since the very dawn of computerized entertainment

So the question is, do you want to see Your Favorite Dev Team continue to make stuff

If answer = yes, you know what to do

 

[butter_stick]

that's not what i said, though. to elaborate: sorry to further muddy this topic with crazy analogies (before the used auto dealership etc invade) BUT

your mentality is not very different from a society trying to illegalize/regulate prostitution, the oldest crime since getting money for nothing and your chicks for free. piracy is going to happen. your mentality lends itself to oppressive DRM and presuming people interested in your product are criminals, because your system is entirely binary: pay an overpriced, standardized amount, or rent/borrow/download/etc and give nothing back and be a parasite.

you know what's cause more pirates to pay for games than platitudes like this and DRM? steam sales, price slashes and humble indie bundles. think about that. i'm not trying to legitimize shit; i'm trying to take PR talk and a disastrous business model and show that a middle ground has long since been established, and it's not where you're pointing towards.

Yes, piracy is going to happen. I'm not saying "DRM the shit out of everything!" as a response. It's unrealistic to have any legal repercussions for people. But I'm also not buying the bullshit excuses that people make for it. And saying "I pirate music, but I don't steal from a store, it's TOTALLY DIFFERENT!" is just stupid. Of course you wouldn't have bought everything you've pirated. But you also would have bought some things you did.

 

[radioheadrule83]

The best way to counter it imo is to make the game break or be flawed in some way when pirated.... or by adding value to games with network updates that put hurdles in front of pirates if they want to continue playing. Those methods can often be counteracted, but delaying the full functionality of pirated games can have a positive effect, and the fact pirates get to sample the game before the game-breaker means they might be more inclined to buy it IMO. There are Square Enix games that do this, and a couple of Nintendo games on DS and Wii that tried it.

The convenience of piracy is what makes it so widespread. Make it inconvenient, or tip the balance of effort vs reward and you really curb the practice. Make a legal alternative more competitive and convenient and you erode it further... a good example is Spotify and the Amazon MP3 store. People are turning to services like those in droves, because you can buy music for less than a bottle of coca-cola, you can pay £5 a month for unlimited music without ads and have it on your mobile device... and thats more convenient than trawling more dubious audio services or torrent sites like The Pirate Bay for songs and albums.

I do think Team Meat would feel differently if they'd put together a mega-budget game, and piracy was eating into their profitability and their chances of breaking even... but I do think piracy needs to be accepted as a fact of life and countered positively, pro-actively and with a mind to converting pirates into consumers again - rather than simply punishing them or stopping them.

 

[Captain_Spanky]

I love it when people justify stealing by saying it doesn't count because it's digital.

Actually it's not stealing, its copyright infringement, which is different. It's more similar to people copying tapes and recording films off the TV or radio in the 70s and 80s.

 

[mclem]

That or they'll just tell their friends where they pirated it from and the chain of not buying your game will continue. They're giving people way too much credit when they believe that someone that just got something for free will then turn around and pay for it just because they liked it.

If you read the article they say they get lots of emails from people that admit they did exactly what you say it's unlikely to happen.

They have some sort of evidence for that claim, do you have for the opposite?

I'm trying to work out why these pirates didn't *give* a copy of the game to the people they were extolling its virtues to.

 

[PixyJunket]

Indie devs sure love talking up piracy.

 

[MikeE21286]

TIL: Piracy is OK?

 

[Minimum Rage]

If you wouldn't spend money on it, it probably means you don't care enough to play it. If you don't care enough to play it, then why bother getting an illegal copy?

I always pirate my games before buying it.

I've been ripped off many times because I bought a game because a review convinced me.

The reviewers are the real criminals here. They promise it's good stuff, but it's nothing like it. Reviewers remind me of drugdealers. They promise pure quality drugs, but in the end you are swallowing rat poison.

 

[angular graphics]

If you wouldn't spend money on it, it probably means you don't care enough to play it. If you don't care enough to play it, then why bother getting an illegal copy?

Why are people doing one-night stands? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-night_stand

"If it happens, good, I get the enjoyment for the night"
"If it doesn't happen, I don't care, it's not like I wanted to be in a relationship with him/her, so I didn't lose anything"

 

[Jiguryo]

I always pirate my games before buying it.

I've been ripped off many times because I bought a game because a review convinced me.

The reviewers are the real criminals here. They promise it's good stuff, but it's nothing like it. Reviewers remind me of drugdealers. They promise pure quality drugs, but in the end you are swallowing rat poison.

I hear you on misleading reviews (be it for whatever reason, personal or otherwise), but pirating it is hardly the only way of testing the games first... and no, I don' t mean downloadable demos.

 

[Jiguryo]

Why are people doing one-night stands? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-night_stand

"If it happens, good, I get the enjoyment for the night"
"If it doesn't happen, I don't care, it's not like I wanted to be in a relationship with him/her, so I didn't lose anything"

Your comparison is like saying you won't give a whore your money because you didn't like her services. Sorry, but no.