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[Nome]

Team Meat are assholes, you can't compare the development cost of an indie game to an AAA game.

For an indie game is easy to be profitable even if the game is massively pirated, it doesn't works the same way for a game that costs 50+ M$ to develop

I'd have to agree here.

Smaller indie games can definitely benefit from piracy.
I don't see how something like Modern Warfare 3 could possibly benefit though.

 

[Auto_aim1]

Piracy isn't the problem, 50 million dollar development budgets are the problem.

Final Fantasy X cost almost $30 million to develop, and it sold a lot as well. This was in 2001. Big budget games, if done right, can break even easily and maybe even bring in a lot more money than invested in it. You have to invest something to make something back, and some people just do that on a grander scale.

There are detriments to this model, of course and piracy is one of them. Can't really blame the publishers for trying to protect their massive investment.

 

[Moundir&Tony>you]

So what about all the people I know that only pirate games without purchasing? I can think of three friends of mine who do this. They seriously never buy games, but play pirated ones all the time.

I'm not saying Team Meat is wrong, but that's 3 anecdotal evidence accounts against them in my small sphere of influence.

If they're into gaming , they will probably end up buying their games in a few years .
I used to pirate dozens of games , was the go-to guy among my friends for console modding , all because I didn't have enough money . Now , I don't have much money , but my personal collection has reached the 500 legit games .

Other people I know have gone through this as well .

 

[Opiate]

I think the discussion needs to move away from whether piracy is moral or not, or to what degree it is immoral, because the point is moot.

It's moot because piracy is not going away. Trying to suppress it clearly isn't working. Consequently the best solution is to find a way to deal with it.

A reasonable comparison would be marijuana use. Many people in America consider it immoral, but its use is obviously not going away, as people like the way it makes them feel. Realistically, that won't stop. Our attempts to confine marijuana use have been hilariously ineffective, and have if anything created resentment and anger towards law enforcement officials who could be otherwise focusing on more serious criminal matters.

So even though I don't personally use marijuana, and even if I found its use immoral (I don't), a strong argument exists for its legalization simply because it's stupid to try to force things to behave the way you want them to when they clearly won't.

To wit: the response to piracy, thus far, has mostly been to try and shove the piracy monster back in to the box. It didn't work, so the new strategy was "shove harder," with even more draconian DRM. That didn't work, so they shoved even harder, again to little effect. At some point, it's time to stop shoving, even if shoving feels like the "right thing to do," and start looking for alternative resolutions.

Reduce the development budgets of games. Focus on multiplayer and games-as-service. Factor piracy in to your development process with the logical assumption that it will occur. All of these clearly work well.

 

[webrunner]

So what about all the people I know that only pirate games without purchasing? I can think of three friends of mine who do this. They seriously never buy games, but play pirated ones all the time.

I'm not saying Team Meat is wrong, but that's 3 anecdotal evidence accounts against them in my small sphere of influence.

Hypothetically if a game was not available to pirates, would they buy it?

Also, do they talk about the games that they play to people who do buy games?

 

[Petrie]

So what about all the people I know that only pirate games without purchasing? I can think of three friends of mine who do this. They seriously never buy games, but play pirated ones all the time.

I'm not saying Team Meat is wrong, but that's 3 anecdotal evidence accounts against them in my small sphere of influence.

Perhaps you should choose friends who aren't such shitty people then.

 

[wutwutwut]

I don't see how something like Modern Warfare 3 could possibly benefit though.

What right does MW3 have to exist? Why should the market support it?

 

[XANDER CAGE]

What right does MW3 have to exist? Why should the market support it?

Oh dear, I knew someone was gonna do this.

 

[Torraz]

Hypothetically if a game was not available to pirates, would they buy it?

Also, do they talk about the games that they play to people who do buy games?

Speaking with regard to acquaintances, I sincerely doubt that most pirates would be able to actually afford 10-25% of whatever they pirate even if they were to allocate all of their disposable income towards this.

This is why I really love steam. During sales I can easily fill my gaming to do list for very cheap and any additional console games I want I can wait to drop to bomba prices and thus be a legal gamer.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

I'd have to agree here.

Smaller indie games can definitely benefit from piracy.
I don't see how something like Modern Warfare 3 could possibly benefit though.

Was Modern Warfare 2's success attributable to the fact that they somehow stopped people from pirating their game?

 

[Opiate]

What right does MW3 have to exist? Why should the market support it?

I'm not sure why this gets glossed over so much.

Why don't games with Crysis+++ graphics exist, with 400 hour campaigns and deep, involving multiplayer that is constantly updated by the developers?

Because that sort of game can't reasonably be profitable. It isn't because it doesn't sound nice, or because no one would want it. It just isn't viable in a marketplace, so it isn't made.

The same might be said of many games on the market today. If $50M games are struggling with piracy, and additionally, it is quite clear that piracy isn't going away, then gnashing your teeth, stomping your feet, and hrumphing about it isn't going to do any good. If the games aren't economically viable, then they just aren't, just as my Crysis+++ games isn't either.

If you're interested in solving the problem -- in the real world we actually exist in -- then something else has to change. Maybe it's the budgets. Maybe it's a greater focus on online connectivity. Maybe it's something I'm not even thinking of. Just because you'd like to make something doesn't mean it can actually succeed in the marketplace.

 

[aeolist]

Speaking with regard to acquaintances, I sincerely doubt that most pirates would be able to actually afford 10-25% of whatever they pirate even if they were to allocate all of their disposable income towards this.

This is why I really love steam. During sales I can easily fill my gaming to do list for very cheap and any additional console games I want I can wait to drop to bomba prices and thus be a legal gamer.

Besides focusing on dev/pub solutions I think retail deserves a mention too.

Piracy is rendering old retail models obsolete just as it's done to development models and Steam has done an amazing job of conquering the new market reality.

 

[StuBurns]

You know, as much as I agree with the sentiment that things have changed and that publishers/people in general need to reevaluate digital piracy and such...



Oh, ok, you've pirated a ton of stuff and it's totally not like shoplifting! Cool! Thanks for letting us know, I'm glad it's not the same thing as stealing at all. That's totally not a self-serving line of thinking at all, no sir. Wow.

Let's face it: piracy is "different" because it's easy.

I don't see how it's selfserving, he's a creator himself.

And I think the reason it's different is theft involves an item being taken from someone, piracy doesn't. Until very recently value has been gauged by scarcity essentially, that's no longer the case, and we have thousands of years of instinct and social grooming to work thru to solve this issue.

It's kind of similar to annoymous communciation leading to confrontations. Some people simply can't adapt to the these fairly radical changes in society. It will right itself over time, but till then some people are going to rip off everything they can. It's strange, I see very little evidence of creators being against piracy, it is almost always buinesses making a stand against it.

What Apple realized was there's no point fighting the piracy itself, people should be looking to provide a much better user experience so piracy isn't prefereable, Steam is also doing the same. Although PC piracy is generally very easy, it's not nearly as easy as just buying something on Steam.

Unless you literally want to play everything, the people who can afford nice consoles, TVs and computers can generally afford the games they want, even more so if they're willing to wait for stuff to drop in price.

 

[Petrie]

I'd have to agree here.

Smaller indie games can definitely benefit from piracy.
I don't see how something like Modern Warfare 3 could possibly benefit though.

MW3 definitely will see a benefit, just like the games before it, at least on consoles.

There are a dozen people at least at my job with modded 360s for playing burned games, they barely play anything but MW games and will all download the newest one, but guess what, Acti will get every dime they ask for map packs from these guys. Would the publisher rather get no money? They can get the game for free, but can't keep playing online for free. Same with all these new online passes, these companies have found a way to get SOME money from these people, and that's a lot better than ZERO.

 

[kittens]

I like these guys.

 

[Huevos de Oro]

I am also in the camp that thinks piracy is never going away, and that the way to fight it is not through even more severe DRM measures or restrictions that punish the legitimate user and not the pirate. In that sense, I agree with what Team Meat is talking about.

Scaling back budgets, offering more value to legitimate users as opposed to people who pirate, giving the game strong support after release, getting rid of intrusive DRM. There has to be an effective countermeasure, one that doesn't involve harassing the legitimate user.

 

[Jim E. Rossler]

I'm about to blow your mind. Haven't done any of the above.

Somebody has never driven a car EVER

 

[XANDER CAGE]

I don't see how it's selfserving, he's a creator himself.

That doesn't somehow absolve him from pirating from other creators, does it?

And I think the reason it's different is theft involves an item being taken from someone, piracy doesn't. Until very recently value has been gauged by scarcity essentially, that's no longer the case, and we have thousands of years of instinct and social grooming to work thru to solve this issue.

Right, and naturally, things need to be smoothed out here since the digital goods market is still too heavily reliant on physical trade practices, but piracy still involves getting something for free that you are required to pay for. I think that if we're going to change our perception of what the market is, the definition of theft is going to need to change too. Getting a paid good for free through illicit means should proooobably be considered theft. In my opinion. We can argue for eternity how serious it is or if it should be at all punishable, but in my eyes, it's still thievery.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

He's got a pretty good point. I wonder if there has ever been a game that was heavily pirated and didn't also sell quite well.

 

[Theonik]

MW3 definitely will see a benefit, just like the games before it, at least on consoles.

There are a dozen people at least at my job with modded 360s for playing burned games, they barely play anything but MW games and will all download the newest one, but guess what, Acti will get every dime they ask for map packs from these guys. Would the publisher rather get no money? They can get the game for free, but can't keep playing online for free. Same with all these new online passes, these companies have found a way to get SOME money from these people, and that's a lot better than ZERO.

...Wouldn't their pirated copies be incapable of playing online and thus the map packs would be useless to them?

Right, and naturally, things need to be smoothed out here since the digital goods market is still too heavily reliant on physical trade practices, but piracy still involves getting something for free that you are required to pay for. I think that if we're going to change our perception of what the market is, the definition of theft is going to need to change too. Getting a paid good for free through illicit means should proooobably be considered theft. In my opinion. We can argue for eternity how serious it is or if it should be at all punishable, but in my eyes, it's still thievery.

It would be more akin to a freeloader on a bus. I think that there is a very thin line with the definitions here and there is no need to change it, piracy is a crime but it has an entirely different nature to normal theft although one could say that the outcome is similar sans the deprivation of the original good
*edited*

 

[Petrie]

...Wouldn't their pirated copies be incapable of playing online and thus the map packs would be useless to them?

On the 360 you can play burned copies of everything online without issue. It may be harder to mod now, but in the early days it was as simple as a slight DVD drive modification.

Google tells me it's still just as easy.

People are occasionally banned, but that's the risk they take, and getting back is as simple as buying a cheap Arcade unit.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

This will be an interesting thread to re-read in 20 years just to see how the industry really adapted to the evolving nature of digital ownership and whether the industry decided to milk casual social gaming as its preferred source of more easily controlled and consistent revenue.

Of course by then we'll all be playing free-to-play cash-shop Facebook (privacy settings now requiring you to allow everyone to see your entire genome) integrated World of Angry Birds MMO on our Appletendo iScreen touch-TV/console, browsing IGNupSpotTrailers247 with our Kinect-only-functionality Microsoft gaming PCs, and reminiscing about the good old days before EA bought Sony and started producing bi-monthly, soap-opera style serials with 2 hours of gameplay which automatically expire if you don't have a $30 a month subscription to Origin Galactic.

 

[AbsoluteZero]

So is this available for OS X yet?

 

[XANDER CAGE]

It would be more akin to a freeloader on a bus. I think that there is a very thin line with the definitions here and there is no need to change it, piracy is a crime but it has an entirely different nature to normal theft although one could say that the outcome is similar sans the deprivation of the original good
*edited*

You are getting something that has an asking price without paying said price. The guy from Team Meat in the OP's quote says this is different from shoplifting, which to me is only true in the sense that the product is a copy instead of a physical object.

 

[Theonik]

On the 360 you can play burned copies of everything online without issue. It may be harder to mod now, but in the early days it was as simple as a slight DVD drive modification.

Google tells me it's still just as easy.

People are occasionally banned, but that's the risk they take, and getting back is as simple as buying a cheap Arcade unit.

Yes i know, but MS seems to have annual banwaves going round when the latest CoD is released and actively bans consoles, 360 piracy seems fairly inconvenient if you're interested in something like CoD so by default I'd say that it's somewhat protected from it. Ironically CoD is probably also the most pirated game at the moment and one of the best selling.

 

[Petrie]

Yes i know, but MS seems to have annual banwaves going round when the latest CoD is released and actively bans consoles, 360 piracy seems fairly inconvenient if you're interested in something like CoD so by default I'd say that it's somewhat protected from it. Ironically CoD is probably also the most pirated game at the moment and one of the best selling.

Browsing a couple forums, it seems there hasn't been a ban-wave in almost 2 years now. I don't know if users have become harder to find or if that means MS has other methods, but I do know that the guys in my workplace have been playing since last years game came out and haven't mentioned an issue.

 

[AcceptableGhost]

DRM is completely and absolutely worthless and everyone who makes the decision to DRM their stuff, I hate. It stop 0% of piracy and makes the user experience worse, what is the point?

 

[Saty]

While the discussion naturally revolves around piracy on PC, it's good to remind ourself that in this console 'generation', PC exclusive\centric games are performing good and above expectation, when it is the console market that is claiming casualties left and right with games underperforming and studios closing.

 

[Petrie]

While the discussion naturally revolves around piracy on PC, it's good to remind ourself that in this console 'generation', PC exclusive\centric games are performing good and above expectation, when it is the console market that is claiming casualties left and right with games underperforming and studios closing.

360 piracy is huge. Those saying that "if you have to modify the console only the hardcore do it" are just plain wrong. All it takes is one guy at a school/workplace/etc getting his done and everyone else follows suit. And unlike PC, the games are identical to their counterparts, multiplayer and all, meaning they cost the companies even more money running servers for their pirate copies. As I said above, map-packs and online passes DO help with this.

And then there's the DS and PSP, my goodness...

I've heard it's bad on Wii too, but have no knowledge given my workplace and such don't use them.

 

[amrod]

Tommy Refenes adds, "They spend so much money trying to prevent it but they are wasting everyone's time. They are damaging their own businesses. Those gamers who got screwed by DRM problems? I guarantee those people are going to think twice before they buy another game from that publisher.

That's the reason I am skipping Ubisoft's Driver

 

[Snuggles]

I don't see how they're condoning piracy, they're just taking up a flippant attitude about it. DRM, no matter how strict, is ultimately cracked while legitimate customers are forced to deal with it. Piracy is inevitable, so they might as well accept it and move on. I support what they're saying, since DRM is ineffective and devalues the product for legitimate consumers like myself.

 

[subversus]

I'm not sure why this gets glossed over so much.

Why don't games with Crysis+++ graphics exist, with 400 hour campaigns and deep, involving multiplayer that is constantly updated by the developers?

Because that sort of game can't reasonably be profitable. It isn't because it doesn't sound nice, or because no one would want it. It just isn't viable in a marketplace, so it isn't made.

The same might be said of many games on the market today. If $50M games are struggling with piracy, and additionally, it is quite clear that piracy isn't going away, then gnashing your teeth, stomping your feet, and hrumphing about it isn't going to do any good. If the games aren't economically viable, then they just aren't, just as my Crysis+++ games isn't either.

If you're interested in solving the problem -- in the real world we actually exist in -- then something else has to change. Maybe it's the budgets. Maybe it's a greater focus on online connectivity. Maybe it's something I'm not even thinking of. Just because you'd like to make something doesn't mean it can actually succeed in the marketplace.

as much as I hate piracy I agree with this. There are zero chances to reduce it by legal means at the moment. If we have Real IDs connected to IPs or something like that in some distant future + laws it MAY BE possible to destroy piracy or make it underground but right now it's not possible so dealwithit.gif

And frankly speaking the only games which suffer from it are single-player games. So the main problem is how to make these games in such climate. Unfortunately these games are data and data can be collected and copied unless it's encrypted in a very clever way or just streamed aka Onlive.

 

[subversus]

on a related note:

Ubisoft says its DRM “is a success” due to reduction in piracy
A Ubisoft representative has told PC Gamer it has seen “a clear reduction in piracy of our titles which required a persistent online connection, and from that point of view the requirement is a success.” This is thanks to the firm’s use of “always on” DRM for PC games, which was first used with The Settlers 7, but didn’t cause too much of an uproar until Assassin’s Creed 2 came out on the system due to shaky internet connections and server issues causing game log outs or loss of saves. Ubisoft clarified earlier reports which stated From Dust on PC would require the DRM, and informed VG247 that the single-player portion of the game would not make use of the DRM.

http://www.vg247.com/2011/07/28/ubisoft-says-its-drm-“is-a-success”-due-to-reduction-in-piracy/

I can confirm that it's working by anecdotal evidence.

 

[Snuggles]

they also successfully implemented the most atrocious form of DRM to date

get fucked, Ubi

 

[Deleted member 17706]

How would Ubisoft go about tracking piracy numbers?

Furthermore, why would they care about a reduction in piracy unless that directly resulted in an increase in sales?

 

[subversus]

they also successfully implemented the most atrocious form of DRM to date

get fucked, Ubi

I don't think they care about gamer's feelings if it works for them.

I'm interested if it is true or just PR spiel.

 

[alr1ght]

I don't think they care about gamer's feelings if it works for them.

I'm interested if it is true or just PR spiel.

They should care about pissing off their customers.

"Well you see, we went into the googles and typed "Assassins Creed 2 download" and saw a 4 million hit difference between it and the first game. Success!"

 

[Steve Youngblood]

on a related note:



http://www.vg247.com/2011/07/28/ubisoft-says-its-drm-“is-a-success”-due-to-reduction-in-piracy/

I can confirm that it's working by anecdotal evidence.

Is there a clear increase in sales?

 

[angular graphics]

on a related note:



http://www.vg247.com/2011/07/28/ubisoft-says-its-drm-“is-a-success”-due-to-reduction-in-piracy/

I can confirm that it's working by anecdotal evidence.

They claim they achieved "a clear reduction in piracy". And they definitely did since 2 of their games are still uncracked.

However did they achieve higher sales as well? Because that's not what they say.

 

[Maztorre]

I don't think they care about gamer's feelings if it works for them.

I'm interested if it is true or just PR spiel.

Yeah, I mean why listen to your paying customers when you've got more important things to do like marginally inconvenience people who would never have bought your game?

 

[subversus]

They should care about pissing off their customers.

"Well you see, we went into the googles and typed "Assassins Creed 2 download" and saw a 4 million hit difference between it and the first game. Success!"

I don't think it's this metric. I think they judge by sales. And if it sells better than they shouldn't give a damn about pissing off their customers since customers buy their games more in this case, i.e. vote with their dollar.

 

[Mr_Zombie]

on a related note:



http://www.vg247.com/2011/07/28/ubis...ion-in-piracy/

I can confirm that it's working by anecdotal evidence.

Didn't pirates already passed the DRM by by using local servers? I know that at least that was the case with AC2 and SC:C.

Sure, the DRM prevented day 0 piracy, but those games were pirated eventually anyway. In the end, legal customers had to deal with the shitty DRM even though pirates could play those games without an issue.

 

[Theonik]

Is there a clear increase in sales?

Could you even measure it?

 

[subversus]

Could you even measure it?

of course

like AC2 sold 100.000, AC.B sold 50.000 (figures don't matter, it's just an example) - something like that.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I don't think it's this metric. I think they judge by sales. And if it sells better than they shouldn't give a damn about pissing off their customers since customers buy their games more in this case, i.e. vote with their dollar.

So, Assassin's Creed 2 selling more than the original is some kind of evidence that their new DRM scheme worked?

Also, if it was truly 'successful' for them, then why did they remove it/choose not to implement it for certain titles?

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Could you even measure it?

Expectations? Comparisons to other titles that don't have the DRM? Comparison to earlier titles in the series? Comparisons to competing titles without the DRM? I really don't know. However, if we concede that you can't, then that causes me to question how they concluded that piracy was reduced, then. Where did they come up with that conclusion?

 

[SpaceDrake]

on a related note:

http://www.vg247.com/2011/07/28/ubisoft-says-its-drm-“is-a-success”-due-to-reduction-in-piracy/

I can confirm that it's working by anecdotal evidence.

As Robin pointed out to me: "you'll notice they don't mention if it's led to notably increased sales".

Also

If we have Real IDs connected to IPs or something like that in some distant future + laws it MAY BE possible to destroy piracy or make it underground

Sweet jesus if you're actually advocating this becoming A Thing you and I are, like, destined for an Agent Smith vs. Neo showdown or something

 

[SMT]

Interesting stance they have on piracy.
It is true, if a game is so good and I heard someone mentioning his copy, I would go out an buy it. He doesn't have to tell me it is a fake.

 

[subversus]

Sweet jesus if you're actually advocating this becoming A Thing you and I are, like, destined for an Agent Smith vs. Neo showdown or something

it was just an example, I don't advocate such things but I think they bound to happen in next 50 years.

 

[Theonik]

Expectations? Comparisons to other titles that don't have the DRM? Comparison to earlier titles in the series? Comparisons to competing titles without the DRM? I really don't know. However, if we concede that you can't, then that causes me to question how they concluded that piracy was reduced, then. Where did they come up with that conclusion?

Knowing how these pubs operate? Counting downloads on Piratebay.