Mecha_Infantry
Banned
Liu Kang Baking A Pie said:
Notice I didn't add this to my 1 month ban facts!
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The Apple Tablet Thread Of It's Inevitable
- Thread starter ClovingWestbrook
- Start date
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Notice I didn't add this to my 1 month ban facts!
PhoncipleBone
Banned
It is identical to someone else's I quoted in another thread. That or the other person was Freddie Mercury without the jacket.RubxQub said:How do you have a Scribblenaut's avatar if this is your first post ever?
ARE YOU STEALING SOMEONE ELSE'S AVATAR?!?!?!!!!!!!!!!
H_Prestige
Banned
mrkgoo said:I'm expecting they'll keep the product around and inevitably it'll need updating. It's hard to see whatthey can do besides improve specs. Make it thinner? Lighter?. Maybe better battery and performance. New trackpad etc.
Damn, apple are so good at making me want everything. There range of proucts is tune to perfection. I want one of everything! :lol
They should improve the price.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
HP and Dell should probably do the same with their thicker and weaker Air competitors that actually cost more than the Air.H_Prestige said:
Kung Fu Jedi
Member
Liu Kang Baking A Pie said:
So true. Apple-haters like to bash the Air, especially when it first came out, focusing on the price vs. performance ratio and completely ignoring the size factor. When competitors began to release their own Air clones, they turned out to cost more and really not offer anything different.
Willxc123 said:
Something people have to realise is that Apple has been researching a tablet form factor for years. They never brought anything out because they felt they couldn't find a market or didn't think it was the right time. The fruits of a lot of that research is actually in the iPhone. The fact (lol) that they're bringing one out now is the number reason why everyone is so interested.
StrikerObi
Member
Still secretly hoping they call it the Newton.
Marty Chinn
Member
mrkgoo said:
But as amazing as the iPhone was when it was first unveiled, it still had some very glaring holes in it at the time. So even when Apple does something great, it leaves people scratching their head how they could have not included something fairly obvious. That in itself I thiink shows that just because Apple has been researching it for so long that it doesn't mean they're completely in touch with what is right.
Apple's approach to gaming will prove the victorious one, I think.
All of you seem to be waiting for a gaming device that is also a phone. That's what I presume you mean by "taking gaming seriously."
Instead, Apple is producing a phone that is also a gaming device. That is the future. Games are a secondary concern, not a primary one, and that is what we'll see more of thanks to the success of Apple's products.
PSP-like devices (that is, gaming first, other multimedia functions second) have failed.
All of you seem to be waiting for a gaming device that is also a phone. That's what I presume you mean by "taking gaming seriously."
Instead, Apple is producing a phone that is also a gaming device. That is the future. Games are a secondary concern, not a primary one, and that is what we'll see more of thanks to the success of Apple's products.
PSP-like devices (that is, gaming first, other multimedia functions second) have failed.
Marty Chinn said:
Glaring omissions, yes, but I think a lot of it has to do with their own decisions, as opposed to over sights. MMS was most likely purposely removed to enforce email usage, for example. EDGE vs 3G - a cost issue? Who knows.
I'm not saying the devices are always perfect, but there is a reason why Apple are bringing this device out now, and that makes up for a lot of the interest. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people who are highly anticipating the announcement (myself included) don't end up getting the device straight off the bat. I'm a pretty firm believer of not buying the first iteration. Though I may bite, as it may be my last chance to get it 'cheap' (US is cheaper).
Opiate said:
actually, what I meant by taking games seriously is providing more support to devs.
One: by having a storefront that allows for the success of $10 and up games, allowing devs to spend more time and resources on iPhone gaming.
And Two: by having better communication and support with devs concerning the approval/update process. this is something that is needed for all apps and devs, not just games. its a bit of a mess right now.
D4Danger said:
Yes.
That's because the DS is not a convergance device. We're talking about products which are trying to do it all: movies, music, games, etc. PSP tried this by being a game machine first, and other media second. It has, by virtually all accounts, failed at this. The iPhone is a communicator first (phone, messaging), and a game player as a secondary or even tertiary concern.
What I"m suggesting is that people care more about having a phone than they do a game player, so a phone form factor is likely to be the future of gaming. Gaming will bend to the needs of the telecommunication industry, not the other way around.
But Nintendo isn't even attacking this market at all -- much to their credit I think. Therefore, this won't affect them directly. We're specifically talking about "convergence device" approaches, like the PSP, Xbox 360 and iPhone.
StrikerObi
Member
D4Danger said:
The DS does not double as a media player, no matter what Nintendo says or does. It is purely a gaming device. It would be generous to even refer to it's media support as an "afterthought", it is so completely half-baked. The PSP is a gaming device with real multimedia abilities, and it is a failure.
That said, I still don't think Apple is taking gaming "seriously". They are striving to be the loss leader, which is a smart business strategy. Also, gaming is very clearly a secondary market to the iPhone. They sold plenty of iPhones before games were available for it. Games were certainly a catalyst for the growth of the iPhone, but Apple still doesn't take them seriously. If they did, they would be developing their own games (more than just their lone entry - Texas Hold 'Em).
It is the first party's responsibility to show the developers the potential market. This is how the industry works. Company X puts out a console, and along with it some high quality titles. These titles shape a lot of the install base, and in turn let developers know that gamers that like Genre X own Console X. It's pretty easy to see in today's market.
Xbox 360 - shooters and action games are the primary genre. Adventure and racing games are up there too. There is strong support from Microsoft in these genres (Halo, Fortza).
PlayStation 3 - Action and Adventure games are the primary genre. Shooters and racing games are up there as well. There is strong support from Sony in these genres (Uncarted, Ratchet & Clank, Gran Turismo)
Wii - Platformers and mini-game / waggle games are the primary genre. The catalog is generally highly "family friendly". There is strong support from Nintendo in these categories (Mario, and almost their entire catalog)
iPhone - Has no primary genres, unless you count the whole of "casual" games as a genre. Has no support from Apple, except for a lone game made available at the inception of the App Store.
Apple doesn't care about games. They care about licensing fees from games, which in the case of the App Store is the 30% cut of the profit.
SecretBonusPoint
Banned
You are stretching a very weak argument very far Opiate :lol If there was a PSP Phone, you'd have a point. Until then, no. The PSP still sells well with shit software sales. That seems to suggest that many people are also still buying it for media purposes (and piracy!).
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Opiate said:
Victorious in that it will be the most profitable of the three devices? Possible in the far future (DS prints money after all). Successful for those who actually enjoy games? Doubt it. Until the iPhone gets its killer game that everybody has to have, its gaming side will be mehh at most. I love my iPhone and enjoy some of the games, but lets be honest, would you rather play games on a DS/PSP or the iPhone?
SecretBonusPoint said:
Which only reinforces my point, does it not? People are more concerned about the other functions of the PSP than the gaming functions.
Which means that Sony made an error by focusing on the gaming functions first. Snice the other "media purposes," as you put it, seem to be the driving factor behind sales, it certainly would have behooved Sony to focus on those instead of gaming -- changing the form factor and marketing to match a more movie/music/multimedia approach. That also happens to be a game player.
I almost used this point to reinforce my position, so I thin it's odd that you'd bring it up as a refutation.
StrikerObi
Member
Opiate said:
You leave out the possibility of people buying PSPs and not using them very much, thus resulting in poor software sales. Same problem the Wii has (horrible tie-ratio). Only it's not quite as bad on Wii.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Opiate said:
No, the reason people are more concerned with the other functions is that for a while Sony was giving horrible games for the PSP. People also realized that with hacking their PSP they can get more usage out of it. Also realize that the PSP came out a few years before the iPhone. I do agree that for many, a portable game system will also need to have phone access and/or full multilmedia options to compete with the iPhone from this point forward.
I carry my iPhone wherever I go, it has become a third arm if you will. It fits in my pocket and I don't even realize its there. This is not the case with the DSi or PSP. Hopefully the next hardware released by Sony/Nintendo will go the route of Apple regarding this area. I will say that if Sony/Nintendo can offer the options that an iTouch have with the gaming focus of the PSP/DS, they will win UNLESS Apple does get serious about gaming which I don't see happening.
I'm not gonna lie, as both a DS and an iPhone user, I have to say... the iPhone probably gets equal game play time as the DS. See, the thing is, with the DS... I wait for a good game to come out, play hours and hours of it until I beat it, and then I don't touch it again until the next big thing. For the iPhone, I play a lot of those pick-up-and-play type games where you can do it for like 5-10 minutes every once in a while. But I must do that about 100 times a week. Right now my total play time on one game (Doodle Jump) for the iPhone is at 16 hours. Thats the same play time I might get out of one DS title.
Now, don't get me wrong I see how the two are different. But to say that the iPhone isn't really a gaming device is ridiculous. My girlfriend (practically a non-gamer) actually plays many a game on her iPod Touch. Her father, a successful and busy business man, still finds time to download and play a myriad of game apps. The iPod touch is expanding the game market to a myriad of people who might never play a game otherwise. Albeit the majority of these games are micro, pick-up-and-play, type games the developers are still raking in the dough. If some developer can figure out how to make a more epic or bigger budget game that feels right on the iPhone and is actually a good game, other portable gaming devices might actually be in trouble. I dunno, thats just my humble opinion. I don't think its really up to apple to take gaming seriously. All it takes is one developer to do that
Now, don't get me wrong I see how the two are different. But to say that the iPhone isn't really a gaming device is ridiculous. My girlfriend (practically a non-gamer) actually plays many a game on her iPod Touch. Her father, a successful and busy business man, still finds time to download and play a myriad of game apps. The iPod touch is expanding the game market to a myriad of people who might never play a game otherwise. Albeit the majority of these games are micro, pick-up-and-play, type games the developers are still raking in the dough. If some developer can figure out how to make a more epic or bigger budget game that feels right on the iPhone and is actually a good game, other portable gaming devices might actually be in trouble. I dunno, thats just my humble opinion. I don't think its really up to apple to take gaming seriously. All it takes is one developer to do that
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Willxc123 said:
I agree. If the iPhone can get that killer game, Sony will definitely need to rethink how it goes about in the portable gaming world. I truly believe Nintendo is immune when it comes to the portable area. Due to their first party preeminence, they will be fine. Nevertheless, with iTouch's being fairly close in price to a DSi, who knows. People with jobs can afford both but little Johnny and Suzy who ask their parents for one for Christmas may have to pick which one. I know I would seriously consider a Touch just because of its myriad of abilities compared with a DSi.
LovingSteam said:
I pretty strongly disagree: this is my whole point.
The iPhone, precisely because it lacks dedicated gaming buttons, has a smooth, convenient form factor for phone use, texting use, and various other uses like music search.
Gaming buttons, while they make game play better, also complicate the interface in a way that Apple, and apparently many of their customers, don't approve of. That's why there is exactly one button on Touches/iPhones.
So this is give and take: a sleeker, more intuitive phone means a less ideal gaming experience, and vice versa. What I'm suggesting is that most people prefer a sleeker phone experience at the expense of the gaming experience, rather than a sleeker gaming experience at the cost of the phone one. Which is why I said that game users will need to bend to the needs of the telecommunication industry, rather than the other way around.
It's not even close to as bad as the PSP. The Wii's tie ratio as of December was ~6.4. The PS3's tie ratio was ~6.7. If the Wii's is terrible, what about the PS3s?
But yes, your general point seems correct to me: there could be a lot of PSP owners who simply don't enjoy the product, and end up leaving it dormant.
Willxc123 said:
My iPhone is my PRIMARY gaming device. I moved, and couldn't bring my consoles. I wasn't even going to bring my DS, except as a parting gift a friend got me some DS games. Over the past year, I have purchased, I think 4 DS games and played maybe 6. I have dozens of games on my iPhone, and have sunk more hours into quick bite-sized games (even hours at a time).
I've played through Geared 2 and a half times, and Electric box 3 times, for example. I do occasionally miss a big game experience, but for the most part, I love gaming on the iPhone.
Why would the Apple Tablet be the gaming platform? That's crazy.
The iPhone and more notably, the iPod Touch make better platforms for their games. What makes them work is their portability and how you pretty much carry around a phone or MP3 player at all times. You're not going to carry around a bulky DS like a fucking dork all the time, but when you carry something like the Touch devices at all times you come across much more opportunities to get in a few hours of play, such as being constipated at the public bathroom or being pulled over by the cops because you're driving in the wrong lane.
What would make the Touch devices perfect for games would be just a single little analogue nub or something on the top of the handheld. But you know what? They don't need to do that, people are already buying the product and using it as a gaming platform regardless.
The iPhone and more notably, the iPod Touch make better platforms for their games. What makes them work is their portability and how you pretty much carry around a phone or MP3 player at all times. You're not going to carry around a bulky DS like a fucking dork all the time, but when you carry something like the Touch devices at all times you come across much more opportunities to get in a few hours of play, such as being constipated at the public bathroom or being pulled over by the cops because you're driving in the wrong lane.
What would make the Touch devices perfect for games would be just a single little analogue nub or something on the top of the handheld. But you know what? They don't need to do that, people are already buying the product and using it as a gaming platform regardless.
StrikerObi
Member
I think the focus here is on the wrong point. Nobody will argue that the iPhone is not a serious competitor in the game market. The install base, catalog size, and revenue all prove that Apple is making lots of money from games. This, however, does not make it a serious gaming device.
I think the point people are trying to make is that it does not matter how big the iPhone gaming market is, because so long as it lacks a fully-featured, full-length game, it will not be a serious gaming device.
Let's compare the market to something relate-able, film.
Nobody will argue that YouTube isn't popular, and that YouTube isn't making lots of money (from ads). But nobody would tell you that the movies on YouTube can compare to the movies at the cinema down the road. The movies in the cinema are feature length, multi-million dollar blockbusters designed to thrill and delight audiences with spectacle and superior quality (in all aspects of film). The films on YouTube are quick clips designed for quick thrills and laughs and though there are occasional gems a large majority of them are very much lacking in overall quality compared to their Hollywood counterparts.
Being a serious competitor in a market does not make your product serious.
I think the point people are trying to make is that it does not matter how big the iPhone gaming market is, because so long as it lacks a fully-featured, full-length game, it will not be a serious gaming device.
Let's compare the market to something relate-able, film.
Nobody will argue that YouTube isn't popular, and that YouTube isn't making lots of money (from ads). But nobody would tell you that the movies on YouTube can compare to the movies at the cinema down the road. The movies in the cinema are feature length, multi-million dollar blockbusters designed to thrill and delight audiences with spectacle and superior quality (in all aspects of film). The films on YouTube are quick clips designed for quick thrills and laughs and though there are occasional gems a large majority of them are very much lacking in overall quality compared to their Hollywood counterparts.
Being a serious competitor in a market does not make your product serious.
Odrion said:
I think the success of gaming on the iPod touch took Apple for a surprise somewhat. I say somewhat, because Apple were probably hoping, but just wasn't expecting it to be THE runaway success it has been. They now claim it as the 'funnest' iPod, and gaming had a mention in the latest round of updates, not to mention they're incorporating shader and other technologies.
They have invited gaming media to the upcoming announcement. I don't think this is because gaming is going to be a huge focus, but they probably want the tablet to be reported in all areas of technology - they're for sure going to have some gaming application demos for it. Then again, maybe they're going to be announcing iPhone OS 4.0, which is obviously relevant for gaming, so they invite gaming people as well. Probably a bit of both.
DjangoReinhardt
Thinks he should have been the one to kill Batman's parents.
No sensible person believes that Apple is "completely in touch with what is right."Marty Chinn said:
which1spink
Banned
So glad my account got activated just in time for this upcoming meltdown. :lol
However, on Wednesday morning I'll have the chance to talk to Mr. Esslinger, founder of frog Design and the guy who was resbonsible for the first iPhone and iSlate back in the 80s. Oh, and he also worked on some Apple products that were actually released.
He don't have insider-knowledge but for curiosity I'll ask him for his prediction. I'll post them just a few hours before the event starts, if GAF cares.
However, on Wednesday morning I'll have the chance to talk to Mr. Esslinger, founder of frog Design and the guy who was resbonsible for the first iPhone and iSlate back in the 80s. Oh, and he also worked on some Apple products that were actually released.
He don't have insider-knowledge but for curiosity I'll ask him for his prediction. I'll post them just a few hours before the event starts, if GAF cares.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
which1spink said:
Please do! And welcome btw. Hopefully Wednesday will create some fireworks.
Mecha_Infantry
Banned
Odrion said:
I'm 200% sure this will be the strongest aspect of the iTab
mrkgoo said:
This.
Mecha_Infantry said:
Not this.
Edit:
giga said:
This is true of just about every Apple presentation, however due to the secrecy of each product line unveil, I wouldn't be surprised if partner participation was withheld entirely. There weren't partners presenting what they were doing at the iPhone unveil, because no one outside of Apple had even seen it.
SuperPac
Member
Marty Chinn said:
It depends. What is 'right' for you may not outweigh what it does offer to the next person, etc. Some people are going to be upset if The Tablet doesn't have a stylus, use e-ink, have a high-end camera, have bluetooth keyboard/mouse support, support 3G cell connectivity, doesn't double as a wacom pad or input device for their laptop/desktop, can't act as a second or third monitor for their Mac, etc. But that's not the point. As I think we've seen, and as the point has been made in this thread, the convergence devices that literally try to be everything to everyone end up being unsuccessful.
Mecha_Infantry said:
You think gaming will be the strongest aspect of The Tablet? I dunno that I agree. I think it'll be media consumption (web/magazine/newspaper/video) with gaming as maybe second on down the line.
Kung Fu Jedi
Member
giga said:
I predict that you'll be wrong. Yes, this happens now when they demo a lot of stuff for the iPhone for instance, but honestly, that's because it is old hat. They're going to be showing something new, with new gestures and capabilities. I think they're really going to want to wow us.
Mr. Spinnington
Banned
i hate those peopleJuice said:
which1spink
Banned
Marty Chinn said:
The missing iPhone SDK comes to mind. The idea of just having iPhone ready websites instead of native apps sounded stupid and bland right from the beginning. And nowadays apps are what makes the iPhone superior to other devices.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Apple blew that one, but they didn't intend for the website idea to be their final strategy. The SDK and App Store architecture didn't just magically appear within 1 year out of demand for it. It was always the plan, they just didn't know how to handle the transition while it wasn't ready. You can't really go out there with no SDK and say "hey guys just make websites, but then again you maybe shouldn't because we're just going to let you make native apps when we're ready, so I don't know, do what you want."which1spink said:
Mecha_Infantry
Banned
SuperPac said:You think gaming will be the strongest aspect of The Tablet? I dunno that I agree. I think it'll be media consumption (web/magazine/newspaper/video) with gaming as maybe second on down the line.
Strong, but not solitatry..Overall a media consumption device, but I think gamers will be excited by the presentation..Remember, I do work for Apple :lol j/p
SuperPac
Member
Liu Kang Baking A Pie said:
Also web apps let a lot of companies and developers get their feet wet with interface and design before the real apps came out. Stuff like the web apps from Bank of America, CNN, Google Reader (still I think the best way to view RSS on the iPhone), the NeoGAF app -- all really good. Just the fact that a lot of websites began to tailor their mobile experience to Safari before the app onslaught was (and continues to be) a huge win for Apple.
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