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[theignoramus]

Thier response is an abrasive way to put it but to the larger point they are dead on. Diversity for Diversity sake is dumb and serves nobody.

Im sure the Coens wont trouble themselves in the future to change their casting choices.

 

[Demoskinos]

Neither does having 99% of roles and 95% of behind the camera work super serving one race and gender.

Not going to argue against that. The film industry is one of many that needs some fundamental changes. But I don't think stuff like singling out the Coen Brother's casting choices for Hail Cesar is where you make your stand.

 

[WrenchNinja]

Not going to argue against that. The film industry is one of many that needs some fundamental changes. But I don't think stuff like singling out the Coen Brother's casting choices for Hail Cesar is where you make your stand.

It's a good thing these arent the only directors and movie people have been critical of then

 

[Transhuman]

I'll agree with you on this when it just happens on its own. Until then, here we are.

Aka "The ends justify the means".

 

[Opto]

People speak against diversity for diversity's sake, but how do you make sure diversity happens without a little bit of that? Do people get mad at Star Wars Episode 7 cause both sides had women and people of color?

 

[Ayt]

I mean, the quotes literally equate Chinese people with Martians, and black people with dogs, so by extension Chinese people with dogs too.

There is no other reasonable reading of the sentences "Why aren’t there black or Chinese or Martians in this movie?" and "You don’t sit down and write a story and say, ‘I’m going to write a story that involves four black people, three Jews, and a dog,’ right?" than that consideration for including minority characters in their stories is taken in the same way consideration for including animals or fictional aliens is.

It's indefensible. It's off the scale in a "No Blacks, No Dogs, No Irish" kinda way.

The Coen's are Jewish so do you think they were equating themselves to dogs?

 

[akira28]

we know how much people love their animals.

 

[80s Bad Guy]

Sure, you don't arbitrarily write stories to be inclusive of all races, but when we can look at your entire body (a lifetime) of work and see an overwhelming whiteness to it, doesn't that mean you're writing from a kind of narrow point of view? Yes! Does that mean they are terrible people? No! Does that mean they should try harder? Yes!

But why do they have to be so defensive and why would anyone bother to defend that? Just acknowledge an issue exists, adjust and move on.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

Sure, you don't arbitrarily write stories to be inclusive of all races, but when we can look at your entire body (a lifetime) of work and see an overwhelming whiteness to it, doesn't that mean you're writing from a kind of narrow point of view? Yes! Does that mean they are terrible people? No! Does that mean they should try harder? Yes!

But why do they have to be so defensive and why would anyone bother to defend that? Just acknowledge an issue exists, adjust and move on.

People are defensive because they are human. You see a question like that and you assume it's coming from a perspective that the person finds you racist for the qualities you put in your work and not somewhere neutral.

I say we boycott the film.

 

[80s Bad Guy]

People are defensive because they are human.

Humans suck

 

[GorillaJu]

People speak against diversity for diversity's sake, but how do you make sure diversity happens without a little bit of that? Do people get mad at Star Wars Episode 7 cause both sides had women and people of color?

I can't speak for everyone, but I like to think that the writers decided "let's tell the story of a young female Jedi" and that John Boyega was the right fit for Finn's role, and fuck anyone who wasn't ready for a black man and young British woman as their protagonists, rather than "first off, we should have underrepresented minorities as our heroes because we'll score social capital points with folk on the Internet."

 

[MHWilliams]

I can't speak for everyone, but I like to think that the writers decided "let's tell the story of a young female Jedi" and that John Boyega was the right fit for Finn's role, and fuck anyone who wasn't ready for a black man and young British woman as their protagonists, rather than "first off, we should have underrepresented minorities as our heroes because we'll score social capital points with folk on the Internet."

But the latter is mostly extra interpretation of motive.

Essentially, for some "let's tell the story of a young female Jedi" is virtually indistinguishable from "first off, we should have underrepresented minorities as our heroes."

From example, you brought up Force Awakens. Here's Abrams with one of his focuses for the film:

’Star Wars’ was always a boy’s thing, and a movie that dad’s could take their sons to. And although that is still very much the case. I was really hoping this could be a movie that mothers could take their daughters to as well,” Abrams said.

Some read that as pandering to a specific demographic and those folks will always read it as that. That's not a problem. People worry about intent (which is largely guessing without direct comment) and not about execution. Execution is what matters.

Black Panther is one of the larger black comic heroes. His creation?

GROTH: How did you come up with the Black Panther?

KIRBY: I came up with the Black Panther because I realized I had no blacks in my strip. I’d never drawn a black. I needed a black. I suddenly discovered that I had a lot of black readers. My first friend was a black! And here I was ignoring them because I was associating with everybody else. It suddenly dawned on me — believe me, it was for human reasons — I suddenly discovered nobody was doing blacks. And here I am a leading cartoonist and I wasn’t doing a black. I was the first one to do an Asian. Then I began to realize that there was a whole range of human differences. Remember, in my day, drawing an Asian was drawing Fu Manchu — that’s the only Asian they knew. The Asians were wily…

You could call the tokenism. You could call that going down a checklist. That's how most of the diverse characters we have today were brought into being. To be diverse is always going to be a specific choice. The idea is that you step outside of your comfort zone and tell a new story or relate a new experience. If you do it well, you've added a new diverse character or story. And that's awesome.

 

[GorillaJu]

But the latter is mostly extra interpretation of motive.

Essentially, for some "let's tell the story of a young female Jedi" is virtually indistinguishable from "first off, we should have underrepresented minorities as our heroes."

From example, you brought up Force Awakens. Here's Abrams with one of his focuses for the film:



Some read that as pandering to a specific demographic and those folks will always read it as that. That's not a problem. People worry about intent (which is largely guessing without direct comment) and not about execution. Execution is what matters.

Black Panther is one of the larger black comic heroes. His creation?



You could call the tokenism. You could call that going down a checklist. That's how most of the diverse characters we have today were brought into being. To be diverse is always going to be a specific choice. The idea is that you step outside of your comfort zone and tell a new story or relate a new experience. If you do it well, you've added a new diverse character or story. And that's awesome.

But you're citing an example of a guy saying "I want black. I need a black hero in my comics." That's the creator, actively pursuing diversity because it's what he wants to make. That's not different from what I proposed—that whoever wrote Star Wars hopefully decided it was going to be a woman and a black man in the leading roles and that's the story they're going to tell, not because they want to appease the social media climate or are afraid of being accused of being racist.

 

[Claude Augario]

But you're citing an example of a guy saying "I want black. I need a black hero in my comics." That's the creator, actively pursuing diversity because it's what he wants to make. That's not different from what I proposed—that whoever wrote Star Wars hopefully decided it was going to be a woman and a black man in the leading roles and that's the story they're going to tell, not because they want to appease the social media climate or are afraid of being accused of being racist.

Is this a thing that actually happens? Is there a creator out there that admitted to not making all white casts under the duress of being branded a racist by an external influence?

 

[GorillaJu]

Is this a thing that actually happens? Is there a creator out there that admitted to not making all white casts under the duress of being branded a racist by an external influence?

Do you really think this hypothetical creator would admit it publicly if the situation applied to him or her?

Look at the wrongful characterization of the Coen brothers' stance in this very thread title - nowhere did they say anything that implies what the thread title implies. If the purpose of this discussion isn't to put creators under pressure to include more diversity, than what is it?

Also, I see MHWilliams has been made a mod. Welcome to the most thankless job on the Internet.

 

[MHWilliams]

But you're citing an example of a guy saying "I want black. I need a black hero in my comics." That's the creator, actively pursuing diversity because it's what he wants to make. That's not different from what I proposed—that whoever wrote Star Wars hopefully decided it was going to be a woman and a black man in the leading roles and that's the story they're going to tell, not because they want to appease the social media climate or are afraid of being accused of being racist.

Some will look at those quotes I gave and say "Oh, they were pandering to X" or "They're just trying to keep those people happy" when those characters were created, not realizing that many creators (especially in the realm of entertainment) are aiming for specific demographics with their work. Appeasement is part and parcel to that idea.

I don't see the bolded part happening in any appreciable manner and even if it is, my point is if the execution is great, then it doesn't matter. Pure creative drive, jumping on a trend or expanding market (Blaxploitation and Luke Cage), to fill out a mental diversity checklist (The Justice League cartoon going with John Stewart and Hawkgirl. Actually, most cartoons if we're being honest.), whatever. There are tons of reasons behind every creative decision; some internal, some external. If Batman vs Superman pivots on the DCCU's take of Superman because of the social media reaction to Man of Steel and the new idea works, it doesn't matter why the creators made that choice. The reasoning behind the decision doesn't really factor into the final product when it's all said and done.

Also, I see MHWilliams has been made a mod. Welcome to the most thankless job on the Internet.

Thanks! Looking forward to it.

 

[Raist]

Do you really think this hypothetical creator would admit it publicly if the situation applied to him or her?

Look at the wrongful characterization of the Coen brothers' stance in this very thread title - nowhere did they say anything that implies what the thread title implies. If the purpose of this discussion isn't to put creators under pressure to include more diversity, than what is it?

Well people should maybe read the actual interview, and not a report on it form some guy who decided to put a crazy amount of spin on it, and a completely different title.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...others-the-oscars-are-not-that-important.html

 

[LaserBuddha]

Thier response is an abrasive way to put it but to the larger point they are dead on. Diversity for Diversity sake is dumb and serves nobody.

If not diversity for "diversity's sake", then diversity for what?

I swear some people are as dumb as a box of fucking rocks.

 

[border]

Look at the wrongful characterization of the Coen brothers' stance in this very thread title - nowhere did they say anything that implies what the thread title implies. If the purpose of this discussion isn't to put creators under pressure to include more diversity, than what is it?

Clickbait/Yellow journalism. More people will read the story if the headline alleges a famous person said something outrageous or bigoted. Problem is that many people won't read beyond the headline and won't read the original interview (which the article in the OP doesn't even link to).

But yes, the net effect is that the Coens are shamed, pressured, and now have a minor PR headache. If I were a celebrity I don't know if I'd even answer questions on sensitive social issues, given internet media's predilection for mischaracterizing, truncating, or removing context from almost any statement so they can make a buck.

 

[spazchicken]

If not diversity for "diversity's sake", then diversity for what?

I swear some people are as dumb as a box of fucking rocks.

Seriously. So the black guy has to have a reason to be there? The Asian family has to have a ramen shop or laundry mat, so that's why they are there? It's really stupid to think that way. Whites are default and everyone else is an oddity, is basically what he is saying.

I used to wonder why there wasn't a whole lot of diversity in media like there is in my real world but I've come to realize that a lot of people's real worlds are not very diverse and a lot of people's imaginary utopia is very exclusionary.

If we want more diversity in media, it's up to the people who care about it to make it happen.

 

[Claude Augario]

Do you really think this hypothetical creator would admit it publicly if the situation applied to him or her?

Look at the wrongful characterization of the Coen brothers' stance in this very thread title - nowhere did they say anything that implies what the thread title implies. If the purpose of this discussion isn't to put creators under pressure to include more diversity, than what is it?

Also, I see MHWilliams has been made a mod. Welcome to the most thankless job on the Internet.

Why wouldn't they admit it? There are a lot of anti-diversity people out there, I'm sure they would get emotional support from the white geNOcide loonies if they said they were being pressured out of depicting their white utopias by the social media boogeymen.

 

[Opto]

It's a personal opinion, but I see tokenism as putting a minority in something to meet the bare minimum of diversity on screen. Like making Waiter #2 a black woman who drops off a drink and maybe makes a silent reaction to one of the main white character's lines.

So like an episode of Friends

 

[turnbuckle]

It's a personal opinion, but I see tokenism as putting a minority in something to meet the bare minimum of diversity on screen. Like making Waiter #2 a black woman who drops off a drink and maybe makes a silent reaction to one of the main white character's lines.

So like an episode of Friends

Or basically the Hallmark Movie Channel