you and me both. I still don't understand why I had to go to speak with the dragon, and why he just gave me that thing, and why I had to jump into memories to collect the old giant king souls and what the fuck...? And why does my character just "accept" fate and jumps into the throne.
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The Dark Souls II Lore Thread of speculations, spoilers and headaches
- Thread starter SargerusBR
- Start date
you and me both. I still don't understand why I had to go to speak with the dragon, and why he just gave me that thing, and why I had to jump into memories to collect the old giant king souls and what the fuck...? And why does my character just "accept" fate and jumps into the throne.
SnakeLinkSonic
Member
That was my first guess as well. I was just curious since you see her watching you as you make your way through Drangleic Castle.
Cannon Goose
Member
Wait a minute, the souls of seath, gwyn and nito are in Dark Souls 2?
cheezcake
Member
Dropped by the old souls in NG+
SargerusBR
I love Pokken!
I would like to add one more thing regarding the Drangleic = Lordran discussion.
The Drangleic Royal Armor is the Paladin Armor from Dark Souls. The Paladin set was used by the Way of White covenant.
The Drangleic Royal Armor is the Paladin Armor from Dark Souls. The Paladin set was used by the Way of White covenant.
EndcatOmega
Unconfirmed Member
'Last' Giant my arse. There's dozens of the things, if the Ancient Dragon's soul means what I think it means.
SargerusBR
I love Pokken!
Last Known Giant then?
EndcatOmega
Unconfirmed Member
Known by who?! This is ruining my immersion, From!!!!
More seriously, is there anything that hints the modern Dragons = Giants thing apart from the soul he drops (and the soul in the memory)? I'm not sure if I'm just inferring something that isn't there.
Cannon Goose
Member
Maybe the dragon fought and ate a giant?
I find it weird that the King, Queen and Velstadt are all so huge. Are they also giants or something?
Edit: Y'know in all the previews for the game where they'd show the Dragon Aerie, once I made it to Drangleic Castle I thought it was the same place, just at a different time. I was waiting for some big awesome time travel moment where you go back in time to a nicer Drangleic Castle where dragons are buzzing around. I find it a bit strange that you can't see the Dragon Aerie from anywhere else. Isn't it just up above the clouds on those really tall spires of rock? I figured you'd at least be able to see the spires from somewhere, or perhaps I missed them.
Why Lordran? The only actual lore evidence to what the land used to be called (possibly Vinheim) is in the item description of the Lingering Dragoncrest Ring, as many have pointed out.
EndcatOmega
Unconfirmed Member
Man, that's a lot simpler! Still, the fact it lacks a dragon soul at all suggests that's its actual soul
Space moves differently Drangleic too, apparently, especially as a short elevator trip can take you from a poisonous swampland to an actual volcano invisible outside it.
SargerusBR
I love Pokken!
Not necessarly, i'm replaying the game and this time managed to catch up some dialogue from Ornifex ( i killed her in my first playthrough), she says that a long ago a Great Pale Beast lived in this land. Obviously she's talking about Seath.
EndcatOmega
Unconfirmed Member
There's also the fact the description says the ring was used long, long ago, which fits Lordran as much as it does Vinheim.
Compared to the other DaS2 threads this one is a desert, I need answers dammit.
Am I wrong in assuming that DaS giants are different from DaS2 giants? They seem more tree-like. Of course they may be different because a lot of time has passed, but they just seem to "function" in different ways.
Can someone try to explain the relationship beetween the skeleton dragon mansion, the Aerie and Drangleic as a kingdom? I guess in the mansion someone was doing experiments with various creatures and managed to capture the Guardian Dragon you fight. It seems a bit odd that the other dragons would leave a comrade in a cage just an elevator away...but I guess it's a gameplay thing. Was there some kind of alliance between the dragons and Vendrick? The Emerald Herald seem to hint at something like that, but it's not clear. I guess since the members of Vendrick's guard are called Dragonriders there must be a connection, even if from the artworks the beast the Dragonriders used seem to be different from the standard drakes or dragons.
Am I wrong in assuming that DaS giants are different from DaS2 giants? They seem more tree-like. Of course they may be different because a lot of time has passed, but they just seem to "function" in different ways.
Can someone try to explain the relationship beetween the skeleton dragon mansion, the Aerie and Drangleic as a kingdom? I guess in the mansion someone was doing experiments with various creatures and managed to capture the Guardian Dragon you fight. It seems a bit odd that the other dragons would leave a comrade in a cage just an elevator away...but I guess it's a gameplay thing. Was there some kind of alliance between the dragons and Vendrick? The Emerald Herald seem to hint at something like that, but it's not clear. I guess since the members of Vendrick's guard are called Dragonriders there must be a connection, even if from the artworks the beast the Dragonriders used seem to be different from the standard drakes or dragons.
EndcatOmega
Unconfirmed Member
I got a hammer drop from... something (I think one of the golem-soldiers?) that said Aldia was Vendrick's elder brother. He, Vendrick and the Duke all seemed big on experimenting on souls, and it looks like Aldia bound the Guardian Dragon in there via magic going bu the Guardian Dragon Soul description. The link beyond that I'm not sure of; Aldia might've been responsible for resurrecting the dragons somehow, as in the time of Dark Souls 1 they seemed to have completely died out save for the Everlasting Dragon and Seath, and dude probably had a giant dragon skeleton for a reason other than to show off in trailers. Probably.
SargerusBR
I love Pokken!
Most people still haven't finished the game, this thread will be more active in the upcoming days.
I hope.
Unknown since all giants in DaS had their faces covered.
The mansion is called Aldia's Keep, Aldia was the brother of Vendrick, he was obssesed in discovering the truth about the souls and was convinced the Undead were a key element in the mystery. He also did several terrible experiments with dragons in his search for the truth, one of which was Shanalotte( Emerald Herald). The Guardian Dragon Soul implies that maybe the Dragons were controlled by some sort of spell made by Aldia:
Guardian Dragon Soul
Soul of a dragon that guards the path to the shrine.
Do the dragons watch over the land of their own will, or are they in the grip of one of Aldia's spells?
SnakeLinkSonic
Member
Are there any subtle allusions to Demon's Souls or Boletaria?
SargerusBR
I love Pokken!
I don't think it is Seath, mainly because the dragon in Tseldora uses the same model of the Ancient Dragon:
Compare it to Seath's model.
The story was supposed to be focused on the curse and whether the main character will discover anything about it.
None of that ever happens and I feel that the ending was pretty haphazard imo..
Idk I thought the lore would be..more interesting I guess ? Some references to Lordran are cool but what about THIS game's lore ??
None of that ever happens and I feel that the ending was pretty haphazard imo..
Idk I thought the lore would be..more interesting I guess ? Some references to Lordran are cool but what about THIS game's lore ??
Felt like the lore in this game was more interesting, but the plot itself was AWFUL. I mean there is no plot at all. Hero could of beaten the game by pulling one of the trolls from the tutorial to the kings door, and then summoning ladderbro to get to the hut. You dont need the great souls to get past the shrine of winter, you never talk to the king. Whats the point? What does your guy even do except sit in a chair and kill Nashandra? Emerald Herald really doesnt contribute to any plot either. Real disappointed there. Also felt like end boss just sucked in terms of impact. She was the Deathwing of bosses, I was like "who is this", then I was like "that was the end boss?". Compared to Gwyn it was a joke in terms of mechanics or impact.
Regarding Old Dragonslayer, 100% convinced it's Ornstein. Old Dragonslayer doesn't mean he's old, it could just mean a Dragonslayer from long ago. He even drops the Leo Ring doesn't he?
Non-baseless speculation:
I think Sunbro survived DS1 and is related to the church in this game, as several miracles seem to have their lore written from his point of view.
I think the cat is simply Alvina reborn, as referenced by the cat ring.
I think Duke's dear Freya is reference to Seeth, and not crazy guy in that office.
I don't think Nashandra is Manus, just that she has Manus soul. Could be Gwyn's daughter or Dusk after being corrupted for all we know.
Baseless Speculation:
Don't think this game takes place in the real world at all. Seems like all the areas are 100% unrelated. Like you're portaling from one place and time to the next. When you take the elevator UP from earthen peak to Iron Keep it's a total joke. The lava is flowing down, yet somehow is not below, and can't be seen from below? So many places have virtually no relation in geography to one another. I don't think From was just that lazy.
Things I don't understand:
Portal to Drangleic in opening FMV?
Why all undead are compelled to Drangeleic?
Firekeepers reference that "you talked to her didn't you" at the start of the game?
Who the 4th firekeeper sister is supposed to be?
Why would the giants really care that Vendrick stole the Lordvessel and/or the Lord Souls?
Regarding Old Dragonslayer, 100% convinced it's Ornstein. Old Dragonslayer doesn't mean he's old, it could just mean a Dragonslayer from long ago. He even drops the Leo Ring doesn't he?
Non-baseless speculation:
I think Sunbro survived DS1 and is related to the church in this game, as several miracles seem to have their lore written from his point of view.
I think the cat is simply Alvina reborn, as referenced by the cat ring.
I think Duke's dear Freya is reference to Seeth, and not crazy guy in that office.
I don't think Nashandra is Manus, just that she has Manus soul. Could be Gwyn's daughter or Dusk after being corrupted for all we know.
Baseless Speculation:
Don't think this game takes place in the real world at all. Seems like all the areas are 100% unrelated. Like you're portaling from one place and time to the next. When you take the elevator UP from earthen peak to Iron Keep it's a total joke. The lava is flowing down, yet somehow is not below, and can't be seen from below? So many places have virtually no relation in geography to one another. I don't think From was just that lazy.
Things I don't understand:
Portal to Drangleic in opening FMV?
Why all undead are compelled to Drangeleic?
Firekeepers reference that "you talked to her didn't you" at the start of the game?
Who the 4th firekeeper sister is supposed to be?
Why would the giants really care that Vendrick stole the Lordvessel and/or the Lord Souls?
If you watch the opening cinematic again there's an old fire keeper telling you what to do, I'm sure that's who she's referring to. I'm guessing she leads the undead to this world, place, whatever it is.
Even if it doesn't mean what you think it does, there's two living and respawning giants under the Black Gulch lol.
So I came up with two theories about this since the size difference between certain factions of NPCs have been prevalent since Demon's Souls. Didn't do any research into them at all so tons of holes lol.
It's a way to denote humans closest and allied to the king? Maybe they receive some kind of king's blessing, as silly as it sounds. Old King Allant wasn't a regular human size, but his son Ostrava, who left the kingdom and returned to oppose his father, was. You'd have to stretch this to include generic Dragonriders though.
Or...
It was a gameplay decision to differentiate important to slightly important enemies from normal enemies.
I like to believe that the heavy focus on the Giants from a land afar is a nice nod to the broken archstone of Giants from DeS.
SargerusBR
I love Pokken!
The Plot Thickens...
If you follow the assassination/hunt-down-trinkets-to-fool-the-idiot questline Navlaan says that Shanalotte is a fire keeper as I recall, so I guess if that first woman you met wasn't one then she is.
The one entry in there defines a sort of similarity against whats present in Dark Souls I and it kicks a lot of dust.
Similarly, there is a covenant in Anor Londo which functions to enter worlds as a Blue Phantom to oppose/punish Red Phantoms.
Also with respect to the special quality of materials for Heide equipment, there was a giant blacksmith in Anor Londo who made special equipment. Especially modifying normal weapons/shields and enchanting them with lightning.
You also find the Old Dragonslayer Boss in the same area, who very much resembles the Dragonslayer from Anor Londo.
-----
Could be as such.
Solaire in Dark Souls mentions that that time/dimension in Lordran is not stable 'The flow of time itself is convoluted', but it is only mentioned with respect to the animate entities which are moving about in Lordran.
And in Drangleic, since a lot of time as passed..the time/dimensional instability has also pulled in inanimate entities from an era long ago to Drangleic. As in pieces of Lordran itself has been pulled from the past and into Drangleic some hundreds of years before the start of the game after the giants invaded. Hence they are scattered all around in Drangleic, instead of being structured in a single location.
People grow in size when they take powerful souls.
It's why Ornstein grows when you kill Smough first.
Cannot explain Gwyn, tho. Maybe when he burned his soul to become Lord of Cinder he decreased in size to what we see in the end of the game; Gwyn Lord of Flame was probably gigantic, as depicted in his statues.
EndcatOmega
Unconfirmed Member
The way he says it suggests he's repeating the theory and then immediately follows up saying he believes it to be utter bollocks. It's still possible, but with the Herald's dragon origins I think the opening cutscene lady is much more likely.
She cons you into giving her souls. Other than that, no idea.
The fourth sister is the old woman your character talks to in the FMV, that is using a spinning wheel.
She is the person the other three sisters refer to when they say "you talked to her, didn't you". They even mention her as the "dear old" or something.
I think miracles lady killed the saint who the saint set belongs to.
Which should be the same saint in "saint's grave"?
Which could mean miracle lady is in the rat covenant or something?
Whoa, that's neat. Maybe Majula was built over Firelink, that big well in the middle of town being Frampt's hangout. It's nearby the (supposed) sunken Anor Londo.
I don't think that Seath is necessarily Ancient Dragon or the trapped Dragon in Freya's room.
The fact that the dragons exist at all, implies that the whole cycle repeats itself from the point where the four big souls are taken. Only this time, Vendricks didn't exterminate the dragons like Gwyn did with Seath's help.
Also, maybe Aldia is the Duke, and Freya's is Emerald's mother, in a reverse of Priscilla's role being the daughter of Seath and some girl. Or Emerald is some sort of experiment Aldia took with the dragons, dunno. The room below Freya was human sized, and Aldia was a human, maybe he used that room in visits to Freya. Cannot explain Vengarl's presence there other than he just wandering in there in his berserk rage.
SnakeLinkSonic
Member
I forgot about that.
It's probably due to the fact that Gwynevere and the Silver Knights in Anor Londo in Dark Souls were all illusions.
Tark implies that he and Najka were created by Seath when you first talk to him when he tells you that he was created by someone who was driven mad by jealousy for those who had what he lacked (I'm paraphrasing here, since it's been a while since I last saw the dialogue). When you speak to him after beating Freja and killing the guy in the room after her he tells you that you've killed his master, but that his master never truly dies, only changes forms.
Implication seems to be that the guy in the study beyond Freja is Seath in some weird little reedy podunk human body, and Freja is his latest creation. Or something. Fits with the dead ancient dragon strung up in the room, seeing as how Seath's always been all like "Fuck the ancient dragons, yo."
The Head of Vengarl also tells you that he thought he had been killed when he woke up with his head in a rubbish pile and his body rampaging but he doesn't know what the hell happened other than that. That you find Vengarl's body after killing Maybe-Seath implies he had something to do with it, and that sort of casual dickery really sort of fits with Seath's M.O.
Though if Seath was changing bodies you're really expect him to pick a form with scales instead of becoming a human, on account of the dude is friggin' obsessed and all.
AFAIK the silver knights are real; they are still in the rooms that surround Solaire' bonfire after killing fake Gwynevere. Same as the painting guardians.
The illusions were the demons and giant knights.
Hard to say about O&S either way.
e: oh forgot about the scorpion couple. Yeah good point, that was def referring Seath in some form.
SargerusBR
I love Pokken!
I think it was by Nashandra, since she wants to bring Dark to the world and linking the First Flame would destroy her goal.
One thing I wanna know is how the dragons came back. They were completely wiped out prior to Dark Souls right? How did they return? I think I remember reading Aldia attempted to create a dragon, so maybe it was that? Ornstein confuses me too. His soul description suggests that it's just some guy wearing armor similar to that of Ornstein's but I see everyone saying it could actually be him.
The biggest thing I found interesting though was the some of the NPCs' memories. A lot of them mention that they don't remember why they arrived in Drangleic. The blacksmith's daughter doesn't even remember her own father.
The biggest thing I found interesting though was the some of the NPCs' memories. A lot of them mention that they don't remember why they arrived in Drangleic. The blacksmith's daughter doesn't even remember her own father.
This is sort of minimal lore speculation, but it has to do with Raime, Velstadt, and King Vendrick.
In some item descriptions it mentions that Raime and Velstadt were the right and left hand of the king, but they eventually parted ways.
Velstadt continues to serve the king in both life and death, but it seems something happened to Raime. I believe he sought the knowledge or power of the king, and tried to murder him.
If you notice in the room where Vendrick is, there is a large beheaded corpse that you find the king's ring on. Perhaps that's Raime.
That's really interesting. Never thought about it like that ...
Vendrick seemed to be a more noble king than Gwyn... I felt that Gwyn was more driven by the loss of his power while Vendrick simply became misguided and persuaded by the deceptive Nashandra.
Would he have invaded the land of the giant's if Nashandra hadn't come into the picture?
Did she come into the picture as the fire was fading ... Which would be a vulnerable time to a great soul wielder such as Vendrick.
In some item descriptions it mentions that Raime and Velstadt were the right and left hand of the king, but they eventually parted ways.
Velstadt continues to serve the king in both life and death, but it seems something happened to Raime. I believe he sought the knowledge or power of the king, and tried to murder him.
If you notice in the room where Vendrick is, there is a large beheaded corpse that you find the king's ring on. Perhaps that's Raime.
That's really interesting. Never thought about it like that ...
Vendrick seemed to be a more noble king than Gwyn... I felt that Gwyn was more driven by the loss of his power while Vendrick simply became misguided and persuaded by the deceptive Nashandra.
Would he have invaded the land of the giant's if Nashandra hadn't come into the picture?
Did she come into the picture as the fire was fading ... Which would be a vulnerable time to a great soul wielder such as Vendrick.
Cannon Goose
Member
I thought that was the King's armour piled up. Unless you're talking about something else?
Hmm... Yeah that seems to make more sense. It was difficult to see a "head" so I assumed it was a headless corpse.
I found it weird that he was half naked, lol. Did he go crazy similar to Logan?
I'm reading some interesting theories on reddit how the "prize" Nashandra wanted Vendrick to seek may actually be the lordvessel from DkS1 ... Filled with the mighty lord souls. The amount of power in those souls would have been enough to rule any kingdom or conquer any land. However, at some point Vendrick went sort of mad, and was locked away in the Undead Crypt.
The Queen said Vendrick ran away, but at this point we can't fully trust what she's saying. The Queen likely locked Vendrick away in the crypt after he built the castle and handed over the "prize" to her.
Item descriptions make it clear that the man your are talking about was the duke of the mining town and also an arachnophile.
If I recall other descriptions suggest that the King realized that the Queen was evil and tried to escape her corruption. Though I have no idea why he fled to the Undead Crypt to do that.
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
This is actually possible, come to think of it. Velstadt uses Dark magic, like Nashandra and the Throne Watcher/Defender, and their souls are all tainted by the Abyss. What they have in common is they all served Nashandra. Perhaps Velstadt was corrupted by the Nashandra, and rather than protecting the King, he was actually there to keep him imprisoned. Thus the King hollowed and went mad. Velstadt was the betrayer, then, not Raime. Raime may have gotten wise to Nashandra's scheme and tried to stop her. Similar to how Havel, the Rebel, in Dark Souls knew about Gwyndolyn's deception and tried to stop it. Recall Havel's armor in Anor Londo, as well as an Occult club, occult weapons being strong against Anor Londo's denizens. Interesting parallel.