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The Deuxcision: LeBron opts out, not one, not two but three teams.
- Thread starter Blablurn
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Randolph Freelander
Member
I don't know what they had from memory, but this source has a different spin:
Doesn't seem to indicate they had much wiggle room. Maybe they can make some moves to bring somebody in, but they kept bringing people in while LeBron was there, usually people past their prime, and it wasn't working. How confident should he have been that the front office would get it together? While you're formulating your answer, keep in mind the things the front office has done since he left.
On Duncan, I like him as a player. I'm happy he got 5, and if they had won last year (as I wanted them to do), maybe they're sitting on a repeat and he's now at 6 (but who knows, winning last year may have altered the course for this year). But let's not lose sight that San Antonio drafted well (Cleveland, not so much) and had, if Jackson is Coach 1, Coach 1b in Pop for Duncan's entire career. Duncan was never by himself on the island of misfit toys.
ryutaro's mama
Member
I get that maybe Cleveland wasn't a good fit but he had other options, in other cities. He went this route for ease. He wanted to just stack chips, without much resistance.
Good for him but at the end of the day, here we are again.
Deuxcision.
Randolph Freelander
Member
But how is it reasonable to be critical of someone for that? Be honest, who is saying "well, Miami gives me the best shot, and it puts me with people I'd like to play with, but I'll go to Milwaukee for the challenge." Who is putting himself in a less-than-optimal situation when he doesn't have to?
It seems LeBron was in an unwinnable position. Stay in Cleveland? Doesn't win. Go to New York? He's all about the glitz and glamour. Go to Miami? Easy road. He wouldn't have been criticized going to Dallas with Dirk already there? The Clippers were on the short list, think Hollywood wouldn't have been used as a critique? Go to Chicago with Derrick Rose there in Michael Jordan's city (in Cleveland's division)? (I think I've covered all the suitors... well, there was also the Nets. Hey... look at their payroll last year!)
But it's not like these championships win themselves. Dallas and San Antonio are obvious evidence for that. And it's not like Miami is the only superteam put together through signings and acquisitions, just look at Los Angeles (both of them!) and Boston in recent years for that. The only new wrinkle here is that Miami was able to do it with 3 marquee free agents (1 of them a resigning) at once. For players in their primes, I'm not sure it's been done before. But 2? Heck, Orlando with Grant Hill and Tracy McGrady comes to mind. It didn't quite work out, but are they bad people, too?
ryutaro's mama
Member
Tim Duncan was thinking of going there too but to your point, this is why I don't think it's cool teaming up with 2 other franchise players, in their prime (or near it):
http://youtu.be/GyHLT6c4gWQ?t=2m9s
He said what a lot of us were thinking.
You must admit he pick the worst route as far for fame concerned though, he won't get this much of infamy if he pick another route, he will always get the hate for just being the best player at his sport, but its wouldn't this big.
Randolph Freelander
Member
I love Jordan. But it's easy for him to say that now, but he had Pippen. He had Horace Grant for the first 3 titles, Dennis Rodman for the last 3. He had players all around him with Bill Cartwright and John Paxson and BJ Armstrong and later Steve Kerr and Toni Kukoc. He wasn't playing with the equivalent of LeBron's Cleveland Cavaliers. He didn't have to team up with Magic and Bird, he had his own NBA All Time Top 50 superstar running mate.
The only way LeBron came out of 2010 unblemished is by resigning in Cleveland. He might not have any titles, but he'd at least have public support... except for the part about him being criticized for not having any titles. Honestly, do you think Cleveland would have won championships in these past 4 years? Would Cleveland have gotten out of the eastern conference, let alone over on Oklahoma City and San Antonio (or whomever came out of the west in that alternate reality)? Would the Skip Baylesses of the world not have relentlessly pounded James for the lack of rings?
So once he let go of (fleeting) public support, where else is he to go? Where else would you go? In the handful of imperfect choices he could make, history seems to indicate he made the best one.
ryutaro's mama
Member
Jordan was getting smashed in the Eastern Conference for 5 years. He would have been well within his right to leave like LeBron did...he didn't.
He didn't have that Top 50 Pippen from the start. Pippen had to grow into that role. Jordan could have left when Pippen was fucking up, complaining of "injuries". He didn't.
He didn't join the Lakers or the Celtics...or Isiah in Detroit. That's his point. He stayed on his team and the FO surrounded him with talent.
If LeBron truly wanted to compete, in Cleveland, he could have made demands to the FO like Jordan and Kobe did. Fix this shit or I am leaving. No way you let your franchise walk out the door without trying.
I think LeBron knew from the Olympics in 2008 that he was out the door to play with his friends.
Syphon Filter
Member
Wade is the decline,i doubt lebron wants to stay unless they get another star which i doubt.
elrechazado
Banned
Everyone blames Cleveland for failing to attract talent. Doesn't Lebron deserve any "credit" for that? Why wouldn't any top players go play with him? Boozer spurned Lebron pretty hard.
I have no beef with Lebron- said in another thread that it makes zero sense to me that if an organization drafts well and or makes good trades to make a champ we celebrate it, but if players do it, it's evil and cop out now?
GM puts together team yay!!!'
Players put together team boooooo!!!!
I have no beef with Lebron- said in another thread that it makes zero sense to me that if an organization drafts well and or makes good trades to make a champ we celebrate it, but if players do it, it's evil and cop out now?
GM puts together team yay!!!'
Players put together team boooooo!!!!
ryutaro's mama
Member
Absolutely he deserves some blame. Like I said, I don't think there is anything that Cleveland could have done, imo.
I think he had already made the decision to bail in the Summer of 2008.
Vestal
Junior Member
Different situations in different eras of NBA.
Lets not forget that Lebron played in Cleveland for 8 or 9 years, all of them 99% healthy. Cleveland peaked when they made the finals and after that it was collapse after collapse with no end to them in sight. The bulls improved every year in the playoffs back then. MJ played 5-6 healthy seasons before reaching the finals. Pippen and grant growing and improving every year.
If the Bulls had regressed during that time I assure you MJ would have been tempted to leave just like Barkley did.
Ninja Scooter
Member
Boozer did that because he was set to gain tens of millions of dollars in extra salary by doing it. Cleveland was trying to be shady with that Boozer stuff with their "wink-wink" agreement with him and it blew up in their face. I don't care if you're telling me I get to play with Magic, Bill Russell, Larry Bird, Wilt and the Pope, no young player is turning down that much extra money when you are one knee injury from losing it all.
And Cleveland couldn't attract any FAs because they never had any cap space. The front office kept trading for bad contracts and drafting crap players they did a terrible job of surrounding him with talent. It was a bunch of "throw shit at the wall to see what sticks". Oh Larry Hughes? He used to be a promising player lets get him. Nobody deserves the blame for that except for the front office.
He played for Cleveland for seven years. SEVEN years. That's half a career. So you want him to sit on his ass waiting for something to change? What a simplistic, idealistic and naïve way to look at things.
Randolph Freelander
Member
Well, I'd have to further consult the history books, but Jordan signed an 8 year deal in 1988, just 4 years into his NBA career (for an "unheard of" 25 million, paltry by today's standards) (think about that, the GOAT playing for an average of just over 3 million per year through the 96 season). That 1988 deal was his first re-upping with Chicago. Similarly, LeBron resigned with Cleveland, he just had more options quicker in that second deal.
From a different angle, Jordan did get to live out LeBron's 2010. He went to college. He chose to play for one of the greatest coaches of all time (Dean Smith) on a team with James Worthy and Sam Perkins that was immediately a contender for a title (which they won in 82 [Jordan hit the winning shot as a freshman] and were also favorites for the 84 title [won by Ewing's Hoyas]). That's not to equate LeBron's pro decision with Jordan's college choice, but at the same time, before 2010, LeBron had never been recruited, never had the choice of where to go, who to play for and who to play with. Jordan had experienced that before.
I can go on and on, but I just can't criticize LeBron for leaving Cleveland, only the way he left. I can't hate him for going to Miami to play with other superstars. Other players of other eras might not have done it, other players of other eras might not have been able to do it, but he did, he's not the first, he won't be the last, and he doesn't have to be Magic Johnson or Michael Jordan or even Kobe Bryant (who even flirted on at least a couple occasions with leaving LA, after all).
Ninja Scooter
Member
Dan Gilbert and that organization have shown their true, incompetent colors in the years since LeBron left. They would have never successfully built a winner around him. They have no idea what the fuck they are doing. People trying to hold that against LeBron are just reaching.
Breh- Chicago vs. Cleveland. no one in the nba trying to go live in Cleveland. Fucking Kyrie can't wait to be a FA, he's gonna run so far and fast. By all accounts their owner is a crazy person.
Its not the same.
elrechazado
Banned
Fair points, but you're telling me if there was a top FA out there wanting to play with Lebron that they couldn't have worked something out? Nobody made an effort, and he never got anyone wanting to play there.
Front office deserve 90% + of the blame, but bron had zero pull.
HI. BILLY MAYS HERE
Banned
Best post of the thread
Marauder Shields
Member
This is going to be great, there's going to be mass tears no matter what Lebron decides to do. Can't wait.
Nobody's coming to you if they can't get paid. What was Lebron supposed to pitch them?
The MLE? Vet minimum?
It's the same problem the Lakers are having right now. They're arguably the most attractive franchise in the whole league and they can do jack shit because of Kobe's godzilla contract and the 13 (?) mil they still owe Nash.
Ninja Scooter
Member
Work something out how? They never gave themselves any flexibility. It's why they were only ever linked to guys like Shaq and Ben Wallace and Amare because to get young, star players (the kind you surround a young, star player like LeBron with, see OKC) you need space and flexibility. They never had any good prospects to trade for a proven young player (aside from the madly overrated JJ Hickson). If you have no cap space or flexibility then the only way to get another young star/chip would be trade....but were they going to trade? Mo Williams? Ben Wallace? Larry Hughes? Nobody wanted that shit. They were just a poorly constructed team. They drafted a once in a generation talent and didn't have a competent plan to build around him. For some reason from the time LeBron was like 19 or 20 they kept trying to put a bunch of overpaid veterans and mediocre young guys like Mo Williams and JJ Hickson around him. That was their plan.
LeBron was not in a position to take a pay cut until he because a free agent 7 years in. By the time LeBron did that he had already gone through 7 years of mediocrity and front office incompetence. Why would he take a pay cut for THEM? Why would he have any trust that they would figure it out with the extra free money? He went to a guy (Riley) that had a proven track record of constructing successful teams.
elrechazado
Banned
lebron took a pay cut in Miami but couldn't in Cleveland? Can't argue both sides dude.
Miami versus Cleveland.
Randolph Freelander
Member
Do not wildly overstate his pay cut. He wasn't playing for max money, but he also wasn't playing for much short of max money. The big 3 left just enough on the table to make the cap number work, they weren't playing for less than 50 or even 80% of their market values under the CBA. His "pay cut" was set to earn him over 42 million the next 2 seasons.
Now, if something crazy happened and Miami kept the big 3 and added Carmelo, that would be a huge pay cut.
elrechazado
Banned
Different argument. He said a FA couldn't get paid with bron's huge contract. We can talk about Cleveland's horribleness separately.
He still wouldn't have any guarantee that the FO would use the freed up money to sign anyone. It would have required blind faith on his part.
And I don't blame him he didn't have that after that display of utter incompetence for 7 seasons.
Ninja Scooter
Member
It's a completely different situation. Bron was already under contract. He couldnt' give up money in year 5 or 6 in Cleveland. That's against the CBA. Two, Miami bottomed out. They had nobody under contract specifically because they were going to target 3 max free agents (and really the amount the Big 3 gave up is overblown, they were still all huge deals just backloaded some). During the time LeBron was in Cleveland they never had any cap space. Even if Bron could somehow circumvent the rules and give up as much money as he did when he signed in Miami, it wouldn't have made a difference. The cap doesn't work that way.
ryutaro's mama
Member
7 years.
Naw, I think Jordan would have done what Kobe did. Get me some talent of trade me. Kobe was one Luol Deng trade away from bouncing the fuck outta LA. The FO did the right thing and he won 2 more chips.
Again, it's how he did it. Dude was on stage talking about it's gonna be easy. He wanted easy. He was tired of trying...fighting...building. All you need is one player to turn the fortunes around. You are telling me that after getting to the Finals in 2007, you aren't demanding that you bring in some major players or you are out?
For me, it has always felt like LeBron took the easy way out and that is why peeps don't respect him and the Decision <shrugs>
But he is the first to leave to go join 2 other superstars, in their prime. I don't think the Decision would have gotten a fraction of the hate it got if he wasn't going to MIA to join up like that. Wade, LeBron and Bosh (on paper) were breaking the league for years to come.
I agree that you have to have the right owner and management in place but if Magic Johnson can get his head coach fired (after winning the gotdamn championship, I would think LeBron would have had the leverage (had he wanted to use it, and that is the key) to get some shit changed around in Cleveland.
Ninja Scooter
Member
^^You can't fire the owner and the owner is the biggest problem in Cleveland.
elrechazado
Banned
I wasn't talking about mid contract. And I was responding to a guy that said a free agent coming to Cleveland at the same time Lebron resigning with them would have to take league minimum which is demonstrably untrue.
And you can't make the city you're in more attractive to other players.
soundahfekz
Member
man bottom line cleveland is, was, and always will be a shit organization as long as King Comic Sans is running the show.
Cleveland fucked up, Lebron fucked up with televising the decision, but the decision was HIS to make. He earned it after giving up 7 years of his career.
How many rings could KG have won if he said fuck being loyal to Minnesota earlier? Lebron wasn't waiting to ponder that question and I wouldn't either.
ryutaro's mama
Member
I will concede this but again, I say that LeBron a lot of viable options outside of Cleveland and Miami.
LeBron hit the EASY button.
Cities like New York, Jersey, LA (Clippers) Chicago, New Jersey, Dallas...you can't get players to come play in those places?
Zantetsuken
Member
I would stay away from Melo if I was Lebron. Hes an average player at best.
elrechazado
Banned
I didn't mention the decision, the owner, or ever said he had a duty to stay. If I were him I'd have dropped Cleveland like a bad habit.
Those cities are waaaaaay more desirable than Cleveland. That's my point?
BadAss2961
Member
I don't remember hearing anything about Cleveland being inept until LeBron packed his shit and left.
Everything was all good when he and his hype men were clowning around, dancing during games every night. Blowing teams out in the regular season.
Randolph Freelander
Member
Cleveland had MLE money, that's it. And that's with letting some players leave. LeBron would have had to leave a whole lot of money on the table to change Cleveland's cap situation enough to lure another star talent. He could have done it, yes. But with pre- and post-2010 results in full view, do you trust Cleveland to successfully wade those waters?
But again, be honest, play at 50% of your market rate to hopefully be able to lure another star player to play at 50% of his market rate, or play at 90-95% of your market rate with 2 other stars at that same level? "But... it's the easy road!" Yeah, easiest choice every single person in this thread would have made, too.
Glorified G
Member
Majority of Heat "fans" opts out too.
Ninja Scooter
Member
I think Cleveland had the space to sign one guy the year Bron was a free agent (I think Bosh was rumored to go there, or Amare, can't remember) but again, by that time, why should he give Cleveland the benefit of the doubt when the team had done such a poor job the prior 7 years? Why would LeBron be like "Hey Chris/Amare, come play with me in Cleveland for this awesome owner and front office!" when he didn't feel that was the case? Why does he owe that (or anything) to them? I hate that line of thinking. He saw another organization, with a much more proven track record of assembling great teams, which offered him the same cap space and took it. He's not a villain for that.
That's because your basketball opinions revolve around a singular narrative where Lebron is the bad guy.
The Lone Courier
Member
Lebron, Love, 'Melo, join Kobe in LA. Would be cool to see but will never happen.
ryutaro's mama
Member
And my point is, he went to that situation in Miami because he hit the EASY button.
It was far from the best option. IMO, I always thought Chicago (with Rose and Noah and Thibs' system) was a perfect fit.
Also, if you are the KING, go hang a banner in the GOAT's barn.
Ninja Scooter
Member
You weren't looking hard enough. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to notice that something is up when you look around the league at the great teams and players that other superstars were surrounded by, while LeBron has JJ Hickson and Mo Williams. The fact that they went as far as they did is a testament to LeBron (and the weak ass east).
If Chicago was the perfect fit... wouldn't that have been the easy button?
Who would run point? Haha
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