Support NeoGAF

[Shinta]

Whether it's a small patch or a large one, it still does the same thing.

This I have always agreed with. There are not a lot of people importing the game just to get the patch when they can download the entire thing instead.

But having the whole thing in there is definitely worse, even if they essentially have the same end result.

 

[Nairume]

I fully empathize with Sky wight now. He and his team put years into something for everyone, and now SE wants to shut it down? Just looking at it from his perspective, I would feel extremely upset and I wouldn't blame myself for feeling that way.

But fuck those developers and localization teams that worked on this game. Their work doesn't mean anything. Right?

Regardless of the time spent dragging it out, SE still put a lot of effort into making and localizing the game and are now in the process of porting the game to where they can release it in a market where it could actually have a chance of selling. Yes, they dragged it out, but they are trying to do something *now*. It was wrong of Sky to rush it out when he did, doubly so after SE had reached out to him, and triply so after his own team wanted to hold off.

And yeah, the ISO is over 2 GB and is literally the whole game. I don't see what the problem with that is when a patch essentially renders a new game itself anyway. Whether it's a small patch or a large one, it still does the same thing.

Because even if the large patch generally requires piracy to function, the large patch is pirating the game.

That distinction has been what has kept fan translators out of the ire of publishers for almost two decades.

 

[Elaugaufein]

Look at the sales of Bravely Default and Lightning Returns again. 100k is suddenly nothing?

And that was just the first 4 days, not the total number.

There's a fair gap between nothing and a decision whether or not to ship.

Bravely Default is also muuuuch lower budget, so sales expectations would be different.

 

[Adaren]

That's putting it lightly, the whole patch was basically a full ISO; there's even a small 136KB tool floating around that converts the patch to a standard ISO without the need of the original game.

Well then.

Hard to blame SE if this is true. The lazy format might be caused by rushing it out to beat SE's announcement and get downloads.

 

[Falk]

Regarding Sky's implication that Square Enix was reacting to him and not the other way around, as someone who has seen the back end of what goes into everything from trailers to the simplest of reveals from Square Enix at gaming events/cons for multiple different titles, no, it wasn't improvised.

That ship in particular doesn't turn on a dime.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

That and you don't redistribute the game along with the patch.

Which is what happened here.

Oh

well then, not really drama to me SE did what they had to do

 

[wmlk]

But fuck those developers and localization teams that worked on this game. Their work doesn't mean anything. Right?

OK.



There are hundreds of GBA hacks online that you can either patch or download wholly. They both have the same effect and are considered equally legal or illegal. I don't know why we're making some grey area just because it's a crude patch.

Yeah, I still think it's not the best thing to do to oppose SE especially when it's not your IP, but I don't think it makes it somehow worse that it's a crude patch. They both give the same end result, it's just that one thing is 2GB and the other would be a few hundred KB probably.

 

[Shinta]

There are hundreds of GBA hacks online that you can either patch or download wholly. They both have the same effect and are considered equally legal or illegal. I don't know why we're making some grey area just because it's a crude patch.

Yeah, I still think it's not the best thing to do to oppose SE especially when it's not your IP, but I don't think it makes it somehow worse that it's a crude patch.

It's because a whole lot of people like to pretend like they import every game and don't pirate everything, obviously. It's kind of a silly bit of denial people just run with in conversations like these.

If the game isn't released overseas at all though, then I don't see the issue really.

 

[Nairume]

There are hundreds of GBA hacks online that you can either patch or download wholly. They both have the same effect and are considered equally legal or illegal. I don't know why we're making some grey area just because it's a crude patch.

Yeah, I still think it's not the best thing to do to oppose SE especially when it's not your IP, but I don't think it makes it somehow worse that it's a crude patch.

Because distributing the patch itself isn't piracy even if it encourages it, because there is still a chance that people are going to be using their own copies for stuff. Especially in cases like computer game, you can flat out patch over a legit installation without having to do any sort of piracy.

And, yes, there are versions of roms floating around that already have patches applied to them. Case is with those is that they are almost always going to be released/hosted by different people than the people who made the hack, allowing the hackers themselves to have that level of deniability that is usually enough to keep publishers off their asses for encouraging piracy.

The distinction here is that Sky was distributing the game himself and was openly doing it because he claimed he was untouchable.

 

[extralite]

Yes, this is correct. I wasn't attempting to state otherwise.

But you did. Two times:

And that's most likely the reason why they contacted him to remove the patch. It's much shakier ground pursuing legal action on a translation that's being distributed only via delta information in a patch file (i.e., only the new work, none of the original content included), which is why such a thing doesn't tend to occur against fan translations in general.

I'm not sure what you're referring to. Fan translations don't receive C&Ds. That's not a common occurrence (or even one that's actually happened outside of zero-day Pokemon translation patches), when you're phrasing it like it is.
Regardless, it's pretty clear that they got him to remove the patch due to the distribution of copyrighted material, not because it's a fan translation of something they intended to release.

A translation is not new work and it is also copyrighted. You stated the opposite, which is wrong.

But the fact remains that game fan translations have not been pursued legally historically, there is just not much precedent for it. It seems highly unlikely that SE would have done so if this did not include actual game data.

It's because most fan translators have the decency to pull their translation once it's officially announced (cj_iwakura already pointed this out). It's probably also self protection.

Why did Nintendo shut down the Pokémon patch? Did it also contain actual game data?

 

[ArtHands]

How does changing the language of the text, makes it a whole game?

Everything else, such as the 3D assets, logo, soundtrack etc still belongs to Square Enix.

 

[Squire]

You misunderstood my point. I am saying that perhaps they were going to have a vita/ps4/xbox release, but due to the 100k download (from potential customers on the vita/ps4/xbox), they lower the profit and sales forecast and decided to scale back the budget...which means cutting the vita version.

The patch had been out for what, a day? It takes time to collect those analytical and make a decision. They didn't do that over the course of a weekend.

And really, I don't think they ever would. I don't think fan translations hurt sales that way, if they do at all.

 

[TrafalgarLaw]

Tell us how you really feel.

I just did? SE is holding the Deus Ex IP hostage otherwise I'd wish them bankruptcy.

 

[Dark_castle]

I just did? SE is holding the Deus Ex IP hostage otherwise I'd wish them bankruptcy.

You're a good man hoping people who needs to feed their family losing jobs in these time. You're good.

 

[Elaugaufein]

You're a good man hoping people who needs to feed their family losing jobs in these time. You're good.

If a companies desire to make profit above all else is moral justification in itself, than a desire for a company to lose all its money, above all else, is equally moral. That's how that sword cuts.

 

[TrafalgarLaw]

You're a good man hoping people who needs to feed their family losing jobs in these time. You're good.

I don't? No one put a gun to their head and said to work for SE. Maybe I exaggerated but we've seen more deserving devs succumb to less.

 

[oneils]

Read the article that was linked to this. had no idea they goofed with an announcement for type-0 on vita.

Completely missed that. Then Shahid retweeted it? Wow. What exactly is his job there, and how could he be so out of the loop to not know whether the blog post was correct or not?

 

[Dark_castle]

If a companies desire to make profit above all else is moral justification in itself, than a desire for a company to lose all its money, above all else, is equally moral. That's how that sword cuts.

Who is to come out and say what is "morally justified" and what is not.

 

[Dark_castle]

I don't? No one put a gun to their head and said to work for SE. Maybe I exaggerated but we've seen more deserving devs succumb to less.

How old are you? When you grow up a little older, you will know how precious employment are, and how difficult they could come by.

 

[TrafalgarLaw]

How old are you? When you grow up a little older, you will know how precious employment are, and how difficult they could come by.

Resorting to the ad hominem 'How old are you? When you grow up a little older...'? Please...FYI I have been and am employed, yes.

 

[Dark_castle]

Resorting to the ad hominem 'How old are you? When you grow up a little older...'? Please...FYI I have been and am employed, yes.

No? Because you did sound like a child throwing tantrum, wishing for a company to go bankrupt because the games they made do not appeal or unavailable to you. As a consequence, people will lose jobs, and if you ARE employed, you should know we are currently in a shitty times where there're just little vacancies everywhere.

It's not cool to wish for this to happen. You can absolutely hate on the company if you like, but asking for the company to bankrupt is pure malice.

 

[TrafalgarLaw]

It's not cool to wish for this to happen. You can absolutely hate on the company if you like, but asking for the company to bankrupt is pure malice.

Allright. But don't forget, making/developing a game isn't charity.

 

[Chev]

It sounded like they might have settled on some mutually beneficial agreement had he not done that

There's no precedent for that though. S-E (and for that matter almost all videogame companies) has never authorized fan translations before and doing so would make it harder for them to refuse any future fan translation.

 

[djp6]

Who is to come out and say what is "morally justified" and what is not.

Certainly not you.You cant question someone's morality and then ask who sets morality standards

 

[Freshmaker]

Why people always fail to understand how a legal department works?

Same reason IP protection is somehow void if a fan project opts to steal it.

 

[Elaugaufein]

Who is to come out and say what is "morally justified" and what is not.

Feel free to read the post you quoted as a condemnation of the idea that desire for profit is an inherent moral justification, if it pleases you more. It doesn't change the point I was making at all (actually it's more in line with my intent).

 

[Dark_castle]

Certainly not you.You cant question someone's morality and then ask who sets morality standards

It was a rhetorical point.

Feel free to read the post you quoted as a condemnation of the idea that desire for profit is an inherent moral justification, if it pleases you more. It doesn't change the point I was making at all (actually it's more in line with my intent).

Feel free to direct me to the post. Actually, forget it. I no longer care about these pointless argument. I've already made my case earlier with TrafalgarLaw.

 

[Deleted member 20920]

The only "good outcome" I could see for this situation would be if they ended up hiring part of the translation team, or making some sort of "compensation" to them for doing that job so they shut their mouths and cancel their project...
QUOTE]

They would have no reason to hire anyone for localisation. Word is that the translation has been done and voice work is mostly completed. The game was basically sitting there, localised for 2 years or so but they didn't want to release it. They don't need to hire anyone to do anymore translation.

Anyway, I think it's SE's prerogative to do a C&D. It's their own IP. The patch contained game data. They are going to release it in the future. I don't see how a company would just let it be. They have to protect themselves from such liabilities. it's not about being kind or "giving it" to the fans.

 

[ArtHands]

The patch had been out for what, a day? It takes time to collect those analytical and make a decision. They didn't do that over the course of a weekend.

And really, I don't think they ever would. I don't think fan translations hurt sales that way, if they do at all.

There's also a chance that SE have discussed internally about this decision weeks before E3, as a "what-if he give out the patch in advance" scenario, while discussing the compromise with him at the same time.

 

[Nairume]

There's no precedent for that though. S-E (and for that matter almost all videogame companies) has never authorized fan translations before

XSeed and Falcom have actually licensed fan translations for commercial release (though that should absolutely not be taken as a standard).

Atlus used to allow Ghideon Zhi to promote his MegaTen translations at the same time that the GBA remakes of those games were coming out in Japan and they could have reasonably ended up working on them if the order had ever come down.

Spoiler

I also clearly remember them outright linking to Aeon Genesis on their own homepage for a while but I could be wrong on that one

Point is, in cases like those, the translators knew to step down if word came out that an official release was happening because that's a quick way to get the hammer brought down on you.

 

[Rootbeer]

It seems like so many of these projects end the same way...

Well meaning, talented fans get together and release translation patches or similar play-enabling mods, only to receive takedown notices.

As this becomes more commonplace, at what point will these projects just go underground and release everything anonymously? That seems like a much better way to go about it if you care about getting your work out there.

I'm really thankful for some of the great english patches we've gotten over the years. Mother 3 being the best example. There is simply no way I could have gotten through such a great game without it.

 

[Nairume]

It seems like so many of these projects end the same way...

Well meaning, talented fans get together and release translation patches or similar play-enabling mods, only to receive takedown notices.

As this becomes more commonplace, at what point will these projects just go underground and release everything anonymously? That seems like a much better way to go about it if you care about getting your work out there.

How many have actually been taken down? Only examples people keep going back to are stuff like Chrono Resurrection and Crimson Echoes, and CR had a legitimate reason for getting C&D'd.

Again, for the handful of projects that have been taken down, countless have been left alone.

 

[Starwolf_UK]

I just hope Nintendo doesn’t decide to pull the same thing for the Mother 4 fan game this winter. They seemed content enough to let the Mother 3 fan translation proceed, so maybe they are more indifferent to this kinda thing than Square is.

When has Nintendo cared about fan games though? Zelda Classic should have died about 10 years ago if they did.

Why did Nintendo shut down the Pokémon patch? Did it also contain actual game data?

The Pokemon company handle all Pokemon related things. They even C&D Datel over certain powersave cheats (ones to unlock unreleased Pokemon).

 

[Elaugaufein]

How many have actually been taken down? Only examples people keep going back to are stuff like Chrono Resurrection and Crimson Echoes, and CR had a legitimate reason for getting C&D'd.

Again, for the handful of projects that have been taken down, countless have been left alone.

Crimson Echoes isn't really comparable here either, it was a rom hack with a new story not a translation.

 

[Im_Special]

Chrono Resurrection.

Chrono Resurrection wasn't even a game, and never was going to be one. It was a tech demo they used to sell their crappy little engine. Why do people keep bringing this one up?

 

[teiresias]

Regardless of the time spent dragging it out, SE still put a lot of effort into making and localizing the game and are now in the process of porting the game to where they can release it in a market where it could actually have a chance of selling. Yes, they dragged it out, but they are trying to do something *now*. It was wrong of Sky to rush it out when he did, doubly so after SE had reached out to him, and triply so after his own team wanted to hold off.

SE thumbed their nose at that market and those fans for years. They deserve any hate they get.

Regarding Sky's implication that Square Enix was reacting to him and not the other way around, as someone who has seen the back end of what goes into everything from trailers to the simplest of reveals from Square Enix at gaming events/cons for multiple different titles, no, it wasn't improvised.

That ship in particular doesn't turn on a dime.

If what you say is even remotely true then SE really is the most incompetent company in this business. Alot of backend work for trailers that frequently have like five seconds of new footage from one they showed three years earlier? Barely even any gameplay in trailers for games that we'll be lucky to see hide nor hair of four years after that trailer?

That they couldn't even get the damn platform correct on the announcement speaks volumes.

 

[Aveyn Knight]

It seems like so many of these projects end the same way...

Well meaning, talented fans get together and release translation patches or similar play-enabling mods, only to receive takedown notices.

As this becomes more commonplace, at what point will these projects just go underground and release everything anonymously? That seems like a much better way to go about it if you care about getting your work out there.

I'm really thankful for some of the great english patches we've gotten over the years. Mother 3 being the best example. There is simply no way I could have gotten through such a great game without it.

Nah, most fan translations go unscathed. It probably seems common for them to be taken down because for the few that are taken down, a lot of fuss is made.

But in any case, going underground, so to speak, is probably the safest approach these days.

Although it really depends on the company's track record. Surprisingly, Nintendo doesn't often step in, unless it's something that could have serious impact on sales, like day 0 Pokemon translations.

However, the bad thing about going underground is the lack of hype and, to a smaller extent, the possibility of clashing with another group. Fan translating is a lot of hard work, especially as games get more and more complex, and hype can often be a fuel to continue your work.

 

[Seik]

That's putting it lightly, the whole patch was basically a full ISO; there's even a small 136KB tool floating around that converts the patch to a standard ISO without the need of the original game.

Really?

Welp, that explains a lot.

Chrono Resurrection wasn't even a game, and never was going to be one. It was a tech demo they used to sell their crappy little engine. Why do people keep bringing this one up?

C'mon man, would you like people to talk like this about a project you spent days creating? :/

 

[Nairume]

Chrono Resurrection wasn't even a game, and never was going to be one. It was a tech demo they used to sell their crappy little engine. Why do people keep bringing this one up?

Exactly.

People convinced themselves that it was going to be a full remake (despite the team's constant claims otherwise) and thus use it as an example of SE being awful to its fans and not them legitimately going after somebody trying to profit off of their stuff.

SE thumbed their nose at that market and those fans for years. They deserve any hate they get.

Totally thumbed their noses at that market for years, aside from being one of the most prolific publishers on the PSP in both Japan and the US to where they were still localizing games long after that platform was dead outside of Japan. Also a company that was one of the first big supporters of the Vita and released one of its biggest recent games (albeit a port) in a time when the Vita is struggling to get support beyond indies and niche publishers.

But they tried to find a viable solution to releasing Type 0 in a way that people would get to play it in english while they'd still get a decent return on it and wait a couple of years to do so. Totally thumbing their noses. Fuck 'em.

 

[Im_Special]

Really?

Welp, that explains a lot.

Yes, I mean I can link you the site which has the tool but I'm not sure if mods here would approve of this, I'll do it if they allow. The site looks like its all PSP CFW related tools and this patcher tool, so its not exactly piracy. Sky's patch is probably just missing a tiny few KB's of data from making it whole, one way is to use the UMD to get that small amount of data to make an unlock key and is what Sky had assumed people would do, but someone else figured out this missing data and just grabbed that to make their own key.

C'mon man, would you like people to talk like this about a project you spent days creating? :/

Okay maybe crappy was a bit much, the point is they took SE's IP CT and used it as advertisement, to turn heads, to sell their product without SE's permission. It got hammered and people keep bringing this up...

 

[Nairume]

It did look a bit crappy in motion, especially once you started seeing more 3D games that better translated Toriyama's art into 3D.

 

[scytheavatar]

SE thumbed their nose at that market and those fans for years. They deserve any hate they get.

The thing is, SE are probably scumbags for how they treated their fans, but ultimately it's their games and they own the rights to decide what to do with it. I fail to see why that Sky fellow deserves the right to decide that the translation patch MUST be released even with SE's objections. What is he, a SE shareholder?

 

[teiresias]

What is he, a SE shareholder?

He better hope not given the way the company is headed.