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"The First White President": Ta-Nehisi Coates on Trump

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Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
I think he's arguing that if a white person voted for Romney and also voted for Trump, then Trump's racism isn't what guided them to their vote; their political identity did. But that ignores that the GOP's brand as a political identity is historically built on racism, nor does it at all disprove the idea that Republicans who may not be personally racist still found Trump's racism acceptable enough to vote for him for president. If anything it proves that point!


IMO, the most damning parts of the piece are Coates' "imagine if Obama was this person." Not only would a black Donald Trump never win the presidency, never win the presidential nomination, never be a viable candidate in a primary campaign -- that person wouldn't even exist as a member of the Republican Party! No black businessman with a history of sexual abuse, sexist remarks, racist behavior (toward whites, in this comparison, I guess) would even be allowed in the fucking building, much less be on the debate stage.

Yeah, I don't get that anyone could argue that Romney didn't go to great lengths to appeal to racists and "real Americans" (read: white people). Trump just replaced the dog whistling with more overt racism.
 

The Pope

Member
People just want to get a head in life. They will elect people that they believe will better their quality of life. We saw it in Apartheid South Africa, even though most whites knew it was wrong, now we see it with the ANC under Jacob Zuma in South Africa and we see it with the Republican Party in the States. Not everyone can have a slice of the pie in this world and tribalism and division will always be used to divide people and push people down the ladder. It's not necessarily out of hate but rather out of greed. Hate is used to justify the greed -it is instrumental but not intrinsic. Killing Obama's legacy is not just a personal vendetta or a racist plot but rather Trump rewarding those who he promised to keep feeding the pie ( oil, gun companies etc.). White Americans want money spent on them not on illegal immigrants.

Tldr: Don't be a minority in a democratic country - you are going to be fucked sooner or later. You are the easiest to push off the ladder and to be denied a piece pie. Humans are greedy pieces of shit.

*I am by no means condoning the actions of those who elected such a pig and I think Coates hits the nail on the head.
 
whew

WHEW

WHEW

This article is white hot supernova fire. Reading/listening to it should be a requirement for everyone in the country right now. Doesn't really inspire much hope that anything will get fixed in the near future, or that the first steps necessary for healing- awareness and admittance at the very least- will even be considered at all, but shining such a searing light on the country's deep rooted issues in connection to Trump is absolutely needed.
 

Figboy79

Aftershock LA
whew

WHEW

WHEW

This article is white hot supernova fire. Reading/listening to it should be a requirement for everyone in the country right now. Doesn't really inspire much hope that anything will get fixed in the near future, or that the first steps necessary for healing- awareness and admittance at the very least- will even be considered at all, but shining such a searing light on the country's deep rooted issues in connection to Trump is absolutely needed.

I know it doesn't mean much, but to me, the lack of Likes I got from my white liberal "ally" friends is kind of telling. I think Coates cut some folks too close to the bone with this one. I'm glad. A velvet glove doesn't seem to be working, so being blunt without coddling is really the only tactic we haven't done much with.
 

paskowitz

Member
I know it doesn't mean much, but to me, the lack of Likes I got from my white liberal "ally" friends is kind of telling. I think Coates cut some folks too close to the bone with this one. I'm glad. A velvet glove doesn't seem to be working, so being blunt without coddling is really the only tactic we haven't done much with.

My experience exactly. Not a single like from a fellow white friend.
 
Finally got around to reading the article and I think some of y'all are overselling the harshness of it. It's a great piece, but I don't think there's anything in it that would make somebody feel attacked, unless you're mentioned in it by name or voted for Trump. The way it couches things feels... not non-judgemental, but simply, absolutely truthful. Nothing about it seems like an assault. Coates is frank, direct, and backs up what he says with reason and sources.

Maybe it's just that I've been feeling less and less white myself as the anti-Semitism on the Right becomes more and more apparent, but this really wasn't all that uncomfortable.
 

Formless

Member
No lies detected. But of course the harshness of the reality presented by Coates' writings/titles will be or has been offputting to people.
 
Coates is frank, direct, and backs up what he says with reason and sources.

For a decent chunk of people, those qualities - especially on the topics of white privilege and racial tension - are uncomfortable.

I mean, speaking as a white person, I didn't find Coates' article to be "too harsh" - I think he's adding a necessary voice to this conversation. But I'm also more accustomed to reading this kind of material about American and European history. I can imagine why people might say "my white friends aren't gonna like this" - it's not an easy pill to swallow.
 

a.wd

Member
For a decent chunk of people, those qualities - especially on the topics of white privilege and racial tension - are uncomfortable.

I mean, speaking as a white person, I didn't find Coates' article to be "too harsh" - I think he's adding a necessary voice to this conversation. But I'm also more accustomed to reading this kind of material about American and European history. I can imagine why people might say "my white friends aren't gonna like this" - it's not an easy pill to swallow.

Truth hurts, but it is still true.
 

Bold One

Member
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Lime

Member
Asad Haider wrote an incredibly nuanced perspective on Coates' essay (as a constructive argument to widen the emancipatory possibilities of class and race struggles). Haider criticizes the ignorant Mark Lilla for his shortsighted and warped account of anti-racism and Marxism, while also expanding on Coates and showing the deficiencies in the otherwise excellent analysis that Coates provides:. It is a long read, but I'll take out the Coates-relevant bits and post them in full for those who don't care about criticism of Mark Lilla's failures.

Ta-Nehisi Coates, however, illustrates the debilitating limits of what “identity politics” has now come to represent, something far from the radical and coalitional practice of the Combahee River Collective: a moralizing discourse which monopolizes the discussion of race, yet fails to propose either a coherent theory of racial oppression or a viable program for eliminating it. Coates deploys his considerable erudition and rhetorical flourish in service of sheer obfuscation—the story of whiteness as magic and Trump as sorcerer. Despite the gingerly placed historical references, in Coates’s telling whiteness has no history. It is a malevolent force which surges from the netherworld in moments which can only be identified by the intensity of Coates’s own feelings—the American Dream become Coates’s personal nightmare.

Coates goes as far as to make the extraordinary claim that before Trump, whiteness lay dormant—when in fact our very first president owned slaves while in office, the first of eight to do so (four more were slaveowners while not in office). That Coates goes on to be disingenuous should not surprise us. If whiteness is magic, it has no real historical specificity, no clearly identifiable social effects, no limits on its scope of action, and no structure which can be dismantled. In Coates’s legends, there is no point in resistance to evil. There are no moments in which whiteness is opposed. The noble heroes are all found wanting, perhaps to leave room for one of Coates’s preference in the future.

Yet we know, from reading the same history books as Coates, that there was resistance. And indeed, the complex evolution of white supremacy is marked by this resistance—first and foremost the resistance of slaves, who from Saint-Domingue to Virginia refused to accept the notion that one person could be the property of another.

Missing from both accounts is the [Martin Luther] King who advanced an internationalist and socialist politics, who spoke out forcefully against the Vietnam War and American imperialism, who saw the continuation of the struggle for civil rights in the Poor People’s Campaign and the sanitation workers’ strike by AFSCME Local 1733, which he had gone to Memphis to support when he was murdered.

Coates traces a history familiar to anyone who has seriously studied the history of racism, or the history of capitalism: the differentiation between two forms of forced labor (indentured servitude and slavery), which came to be racially coded. But he does not account for the second episode: the point at which African slaves, legally emancipated, were integrated into a racially differentiated capitalist labor market, now “free laborers” who confronted the exploitation of wage labor alongside the survivals of slavery which divided them from white workers. The survivals of slavery granted certain privileges to white workers while continuing to impose racialized violence on black workers; but this does not change the fact that black and white workers also shared a common antagonism to their bosses, which, in many crucial moments, they clearly recognized.

In fact, as Peter Linebaugh and Marcus Rediker’s The Many-Headed Hydra recounts, such alliances existed even during times of slavery, when the “motley crew” turned the world upside down at every opportunity. In an account of the collective rebellions in the ports of New York in the mid-eighteenth century, they write:

The multiracial waterfront posed a political problem for New York’s rulers. The cooperative nature of work in the port had created dangerous insurrectionary connections between slaves of African descent… “and scum and dregs of the white population”… The authorities approached the solidarity with a trident in hand, each of its points carefully sharpened to puncture the prevailing multiracial practices and bonds of proletarian life in Atlantic New York. First they went after the taverns and other settings where ‘‘cabals’’ of poor whites and blacks could be formed and subversive plans disseminated. Next they self-consciously recomposed the proletariat of New York to make it more difficult for workers along the waterfront to find among themselves sources of unity. And finally, they endeavored to teach racial lessons to New York’s people of European descent, promoting a white identity that would transcend and unify the city’s fractious ethnic divisions.

We have, then, a series of omissions, elisions, and cherry-picked targets. It is easy to get bogged down in circular debates on particular details while missing the larger question: why does Coates deem it important to undermine the critique of capitalism? Why this target, when since the 17th century the resistance to racial oppression and capitalist exploitation have gone hand in hand? Why this target, when anti-capitalist politics, despite their recent growth, still remain politically marginal, their meekest expressions repressed by the bureaucracy of the Democratic Party? Why this target, when members of every mass socialist organization appear at anti-fascist demonstrations to put their bodies on the line against racism?

Indeed, as people of color, anti-racists, anti-fascists, and prison abolitionists within socialist organizations are dedicating time and resources to the battle against white supremacy, Coates decides to stand with Lilla on the sidelines and criticize them tout court. Socialist politics only appears in Coates’s essay as an alternative to racial politics, one which begins and ends in whiteness:

An imagined white working class remains central to our politics and to our cultural understanding of those politics, not simply when it comes to addressing broad economic issues but also when it comes to addressing racism. At its most sympathetic, this belief holds that most Americans—regardless of race—are exploited by an unfettered capitalist economy. The key, then, is to address those broader patterns that afflict the masses of all races; the people who suffer from those patterns more than others (blacks, for instance) will benefit disproportionately from that which benefits everyone.… This notion—raceless antiracism—marks the modern left, from the New Democrat Bill Clinton to the socialist Bernie Sanders.

But by speaking exclusively of a raceless anti-racism, and ignoring the historical existence and present resurgence of socialist anti-racism, Coates both discourages newcomers from joining and deepening socialism’s anti-racist commitments, and contributes to the McCarthyist rhetoric of the mainstream media that has consistently been used to undermine anti-racist activism in general. Anti-communism has a long history as a weapon of white supremacy, so for Coates to adopt its biases is troubling. As Robin D.G. Kelley recounts in his vital book Hammer and Hoe, “anti-Communism was also a veil for racism,” illustrated dramatically by the poster Kelley reproduces reading: “NEGROES BEWARE: DO NOT ATTEND COMMUNIST MEETINGS… The Ku Klux Klan is Watching you.”

Difficult as it is for people of color (including me) to come to terms with, we are not about to get rid of white people. This country is full of them. Coates is not wrong when he implies that insofar as they are caught up in the social formation of “whiteness,” they are an intrinsically reactionary force. The relevant question is how to subdue this force.

Fortunately the answer is clear: the abolition of whiteness. This is not the same thing as the abolition of white people. In fact, it is impossible to abolish whiteness unless the people currently coded as white recognize their responsibility to participate in this project—in short, becoming “race traitors.”

Treason to the white race, in fact, is in the interest of the vast majority of people classified as white. This should not be taken to mean that the privileges granted to white people by white supremacy are not real—they are all too real, and many white people enthusiastically participate in white supremacy to preserve these privileges. However, for the white people who are not owners of capital, white privilege is a poisoned bait. As the black communist Harry Haywood wrote in his 1948 book Negro Liberation:

It is not accidental… that where the Negroes are most oppressed, the position of the whites is also most degraded. Facts unearthed and widely publicized… have thrown vivid light on the “paradise” of racial bigotry below the Mason-Dixon Line. They expose the staggering price of “white supremacy” in terms of health, living and cultural standards of the great masses of southern whites. They show “white supremacy”… to be synonymous with the most outrageous poverty and misery of the southern white people. They show that “keeping the Negro down” spells for the entire South the nation’s lowest wage and living standards. “White supremacy” means the nation’s greatest proportion of tenants and sharecroppers, its highest rate of child labor, its most degrading and widespread exploitation of women, its poorest health and housing record, its highest illiteracy and lowest proportion of students in high schools and colleges, its highest death and disease rates, its lowest level of union organization and its least democracy.

These words could be written again today with only the most minor modifications. And they explain why Mark Lilla and Ta-Nehisi Coates are ultimately mirror images of each other, in their failure to recognize that overcoming white supremacy is not an “identity” issue, one which is restricted to the interests of a particular racial group, but rather at the center of a universal program for emancipation.

Whiteness is not magic. It is also not a psychological disposition or a particular type of body. It is a material social relation, as material as that of class. It is absurd to try to determine in the abstract which of these relations is primary. It is instead necessary to study a very specific concrete history—the history of plantation slavery and the development of capitalism in the United States—to explain both kinds of social relation. Capitalism is a fundamental target of any emancipatory struggle not because of some kind of priority of the “economic” over the “cultural” (whatever these would mean as essential categories), but rather because in actual history, racism has been an integral component of capitalism.

This is why, even when opposing the most reactionary expressions of identity politics, socialists should never make the mistake of thinking Mark Lilla is on their side. If socialists fail to actively oppose white supremacy, they allow capital to wield one of its deadliest weapons. In order to build a mass anti-capitalist movement—in order to foster the kind of solidarity, commitment, and collective action that is required for social transformation—it is necessary to oppose every expression of racial hierarchies and divisions which are visible in our society and reassert themselves in our movements. This is not to make movements “safe spaces,” but to make them expansive and powerful; it is not for white people to act as “allies,” but for them to reject the privileges conferred by whiteness in order to be able to act as comrades. Wherever racial oppression threatens the safety of a portion of the multiracial working class—whether it is an ICE raid, a police killing, or a fascist rally—socialists must be at the front lines in our collective defense.


For all his oppositional tone, Coates turns out to be unable to move beyond Lilla’s electoralism. This is not because he advocates an electoral strategy, but rather because his cloak-and-dagger narrative fixates on politicians, using them to symbolize entire political tendencies, analyses, and movements. Socialism appears in Coates’s analysis solely as the personal vision of Bernie Sanders, which not only buries the long history of anti-racists who saw socialism as an integral and necessary part of their mission, but also reduces mass movements to famous individuals. What Coates seems to ignore is that political figures are not simply mouthpieces for the unitary views of their supporters, and their supporters are not simply sheep who will fall in line with their supposed leader’s every declaration. What was significant about the Sanders campaign were not his personal views or his congressional record, but the fact that a wide range of constituencies with a wide range of demands identified with his call for “political revolution.” The unique demands of these different groups were made equivalent through their shared opposition to the existing political system.

We now know that black Americans were a fundamentally important link in this chain. Sanders is extremely popular among black voters—in fact, more registered black voters view Sanders favorably than any of the other “racial” demographics surveyed by the Harvard-Harris Poll, and more black voters have a “very favorable view” of Sanders than they do of Hillary Clinton. Yet, while critical of Hillary Clinton, Coates claims that she “acknowledged the existence of systemic racism more explicitly than any of her modern Democratic predecessors.”

An effective political practice involves, as Judith Butler puts it, “establishing practices of translation” between the differing demands of the groups that form a coalition, and eventually finding that “despite any apparent logical incompatibility,” these demands “may nevertheless belong to an overlapping set of social and political aims.” Today, this process of translation has led far beyond the Sanders campaign and the electoral arena in general, with young people seeking out alternative modes of organization and political struggle. Coates, however, is primarily interested in tearing apart Bernie Sanders’s language, and thus discrediting those of his supporters who are in the process of discovering new political possibilities. Every comment Sanders makes about “identity politics” is presented as if it shows the blind spot of any critique of capitalism, as if it illustrates the impotence of class struggle in overcoming white supremacy.

Here once again there is a yawning gap in the narrative. As historian Jacquelyn Dowd Hall has demonstrated, it was the “black-labor-left” coalition of the 1940s which lay the groundwork for the legislative achievements of the 1960s, famously represented by Socialist Party Member, president of the Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters, and core organizer of the 1963 March on Washington A. Philip Randolph. Hall offers us a corrective to the reductive narratives of both Lilla and Coates:

Historians have depicted the postwar years as the moment when race eclipsed class as the defining issue of American liberalism. But among civil rights unionists neither class nor race trumped the other, and both were expansively understood. Proceeding from the assumption that, from the founding of the Republic, racism has been bound up with economic exploitation, civil rights unionists sought to combine protection from discrimination with universalistic social welfare policies and individual rights with labor rights. For them, workplace democracy, union wages, and fair and full employment went hand in hand with open, affordable housing, political enfranchisement, educational equity, and an enhanced safety net, including health care for all.

By ignoring social movements and fixating on politicians, Coates distorts both the history of mass anti-racist movements and the potential for their contemporary growth. Socialist movements exist in the United States due to the courageous efforts of black socialists, communists, and trade-unionists. It is a legacy which must be carried forward today, and Coates does the struggle against white supremacy an enormous disservice by hiding it behind the liberal contempt for Bernie Sanders.

The red herring on which this manipulative narrative turns is the question of the “white working class.” Coates cites everyone from Sanders to Lilla as apologists for the “white working class,” whose racism and complicity in Trump’s power they deny by pointing to economic anxiety and frustration with elites.

Here Coates makes a peculiar move. He demonstrates conclusively that this argument of Lilla and Sanders is wrong. He points out that a Gallup study of pre-election polling data shows that voters “who supported Trump generally had a higher mean household income ($81,898) than those who did not ($77,046),” and they were “less likely to be unemployed and less likely to be employed part-time.” In other words, as Coates correctly concludes, “when white pundits cast the elevation of Trump as the handiwork of an inscrutable white working class, they are being too modest, declining to claim credit for their own economic class.”

But despite proving that the so-called “white working class” is not actually Trump’s base, Coates insists that for whites, racial solidarity takes precedence over any other political interest, citing the fact that Trump’s support was higher among whites as a whole than any other demographic. Once again, this is hardly a stunning new insight, so we have to ask why Coates emphasizes it. It becomes clear, as his argument unfolds, that Coates’s goal is to invalidate the possibility of class solidarity across racial boundaries. Even after showing the research which should shatter any belief that this monolith exists, Coates clings to the chimerical figure of the white working class, in order to exclude it from anti-racist struggle.

This is because Coates appears to lack any interest in seeing that struggle succeed. His demand is for moral repentance, not liberation. But instead of asking whites to feel guilty, we should demand the abolition of whiteness, a project in which they have a responsibility to actively participate. As long as Coates is unwilling to embrace the multiracial mass movement that can abolish whiteness, he and Lilla will forever be left to fight over the throne of a kingdom that remains unchanged. As usual, it is up to the nameless and faceless commoners to make history, rather than to appeal to the conscience of the king.

This is great complimentary read to Coates' well-written essay.
 

Caj814

Member
I know it doesn't mean much, but to me, the lack of Likes I got from my white liberal "ally" friends is kind of telling. I think Coates cut some folks too close to the bone with this one. I'm glad. A velvet glove doesn't seem to be working, so being blunt without coddling is really the only tactic we haven't done much with.

My experience exactly. Not a single like from a fellow white friend.

No lies detected. But of course the harshness of the reality presented by Coates' writings/titles will be or has been offputting to people.

Truth hurts, but it is still true.

I imagine once people got to a certain part that applied to them at one point of time or another all they saw on the screen was
t5qAMFm.png


and closed it out
 
That's exactly what it does not do. Haider explicitly call for white people to abolish whiteness!

My problem with Haider's piece is that it doesn't ask why Coates sees Bernie synonymous with anti-capitalism in his essay. It does something too many leftists do, especially POC leftists do.

It whines about the erasure of black socialists. But when it comes time for socialists to rise up and take political footholds, those faces are looking white and male in most platforms.

That multiracial front looks like a front, and then is seen as just that. You can say they are outfoxed by the media, but if you are gonna talk intersectional, look it and do it too.

For the challenger/changer to win, they gotta look MUCH better.
 
It injects the old class not race nugget

It's definitely more nuanced than that. It describes the historical interrelationships between the 2 and how capitalism leverages one to reinforce the other. It's almost like the ruling class has codified socioeconomic castes by race, making them easy to identify and control. Early in our county's history, when the ruling class observed solidarity between slaves, former slaves, and poor, working whites, they injected divide and concur tactics to manipulate the trajectory of the groups against one another, so as to destroy their solidarity and the threat it posed the rich, white ruling class of capitalists/imperialists.

This is the actual history of this racism in America. It always hinged on proclivity towards tribalism and xenophobia but was vastly exacerbated by a conspiring ruling class of white capitalists working towards their own ends.

This is a point which cannot be overlooked to undo the problems here, to disempower the mythos of white supremacy amongst poor whites, working class whites, and middle class whites.

It has to be explained and shown to them how they've been exploited as a pawn in the name of another's agenda, and how it's actually hurt them to not side with their black county men and instead with the idea of white supremacy rich whites have propagated historically.
 

Slayven

Member
It's definitely more nuanced than that. It describes the historical interrelationships between the 2 and how capitalism leverages one to reinforce the other. It's almost like the ruling class has codified socioeconomic castes by race, making them easy to identify and control. Early in our county's history, when the ruling class observed solidarity between slaves, former slaves, and poor, working whites, they injected divide and concur tactics to manipulate the trajectory of the groups against one another, so as to destroy their solidarity and the threat it posed the rich, white ruling class of capitalists/imperialists.

This is the actual history of this racism in America. It always hinged on proclivity towards tribalism and xenophobia but was vastly exacerbated by a conspiring ruling class of white capitalists working towards their own ends.

This is a point which cannot be overlooked to undo the problems here, to disempower the mythos of white supremacy amongst poor whites, working class whites, and middle class whites.

It has to be explained and shown to them how they've been exploited as a pawn in the name of another's agenda, and how it's actually hurt them to not side with their black county men and instead with the idea of white supremacy rich whites have propagated historically.
This line of thinking just absolves non rich whites of their racism. Time and time again they shown they know they are wrong but still do it. They will gladly shoot themselves in the foot as long as a POC loses a leg. And not because some 1%er is whispering their ear but because they want and agree with it
 

Guevara

Member
Interview with NPR, though it was worth adding. Not too hopeful though!

So you've outlined a situation in which there don't seem to be any saviors. No existing party or movement that gets us out of this situation to rescue us, essentially, from the racial divides that seem to be deepening. That is a sad indictment. How do you — because it is human nature to try to look toward some kind of light — where do you see the light? Where do you see a moment, or a way out?

I don't think I do.

We have some you know some 400 years of history weighing down on us, going all the way back to colonial times when black folks first arrived here in 1619. We have not figured out a way to really pay down that debt to get that history up off of us. And so I think the expectation at some moment will happen now is, forgive me, a bit naive.

How do you raise kids in that? I mean you've written an entire book dedicated to your son addressing this very issue; but how do you — I mean when the future is that bleak when the present and the future are that bleak?


I think quite easily. Life is always a problem. The fact that I'm on the radio saying that I don't necessarily see hope does not relieve people, does not relieve my son, does not relieve children, of the responsibility to struggle. Folks struggled in much bleaker times than this. So to me, the answer to that is the same answer to how we got here in the first place. It's history. If you look at how human beings have been throughout history, during bleak times, they've struggled. Why would it be any different this time?

http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswi...te-supremacy-ta-nehisi-coates-on-donald-trump
 
This line of thinking just absolves non rich whites of their racism. Time and time again they shown they know they are wrong but still do it. They will gladly shoot themselves in the foot as long as a POC loses a leg. And not because some 1%er is whispering their ear but because they want and agree with it

It doesn't absolve them of anything. But it gives us a way to reach them (or at least their children), to pull them out of their racist tendencies through teaching America's history of economic explotation hinged on systemic racism and non-rich whites' buy-in into it, which provides the context in which it developed.

Because at the end of the day, we want the oppression of black people to end. That is the end goal. You won't get there by telling white people they are inherently evil because no people are born evil. You need to describe how they've become complicit in an evil that was propagandized to them, and how, over time, they've become a cog in that exploitative hegemony.
 

Slayven

Member
It doesn't absolve them of anything. But it gives us a way to reach them (or at least their children), to pull them out of their racist tendencies through teaching America's history of economic explotation hinged on systemic racism and non-rich whites' buy-in into it, which provides the context in which it developed.

Because at the end of the day, we want the oppression of black people to end. That is the end goal. You won't get there by telling white people they are inherently evil because no people are born evil. You need to describe how they've become complicit in an evil that was propagandized to them, and how, over time, they've become a cog in that exploitative hegemony.
That only works if they are willing to listen, and places the extra burden on POC to educate.
 
That only works if they are willing to listen, and places the extra burden on POC to educate.

It's also up against Fuck You Got Mine syndrome. Nevermind said people are a ok with others suffering.

That is a lot of barriers for a POC to hurdle over to even get an ear.
 
It doesn't absolve them of anything. But it gives us a way to reach them (or at least their children), to pull them out of their racist tendencies through teaching America's history of economic explotation hinged on systemic racism and non-rich whites' buy-in into it, which provides the context in which it developed.

Because at the end of the day, we want the oppression of black people to end. That is the end goal. You won't get there by telling white people they are inherently evil because no people are born evil. You need to describe how they've become complicit in an evil that was propagandized to them, and how, over time, they've become a cog in that exploitative hegemony.

If you honestly believe telling a poor white piece of shits that poor blacks have it harder, just because they are black is going to work, be my guest and see there is no empathy for anyone as long as they still have ground to gain.

Fuck everyone else until i get mine, and fuck everyone else i already have mine.

Even stupid fucks like bill burr dont believe in white privilege "its not nuanced enough" for him and he eloquently speak tons of subjects.
 
If you honestly believe telling a poor white piece of shits that poor blacks have it harder, just because they are black is going to work, be my guest and see there is no empathy for anyone as long as they still have ground to gain.

White people are usually so receptive to discussions about privilege though? Especially disenfranchised ones, who definitely don't react by saying "bad things happen to me therefor white privilege isn't real."
 
That only works if they are willing to listen, and places the extra burden on POC to educate.

The burden shouldn't be on POC to educate. It should be on anyone who knows better to educate, especially whites who know better and who've aligned themselves with POC and their plight.

There are a significant amount of white people (albeit perhaps a minority) who know they have privilege due to the way they present racially to others and are willing to say that it shouldn't be that way...that everyone should be treated equally in word and spirit of law and in terms of inclusion and opportunity. Many post in this very forum. So, hope is not lost yet.

The best thing they can do besides help educate is to be inclusive of and provide opportunities to minorities and disadvantaged people wherever and whenever they can.

They must also, very importantly, advocate for policy that helps reverse the socioeconomic hardship systematically oppressed people's have historically had to deal with. This part will help disempower the institutional levers of white supremacy.
 

Lime

Member
My problem with Haider's piece is that it doesn't ask why Coates sees Bernie synonymous with anti-capitalism in his essay. It does something too many leftists do, especially POC leftists do.

He does:

Socialism appears in Coates's analysis solely as the personal vision of Bernie Sanders, which not only buries the long history of anti-racists who saw socialism as an integral and necessary part of their mission, but also reduces mass movements to famous individuals. What Coates seems to ignore is that political figures are not simply mouthpieces for the unitary views of their supporters, and their supporters are not simply sheep who will fall in line with their supposed leader's every declaration.

It whines about the erasure of black socialists. But when it comes time for socialists to rise up and take political footholds, those faces are looking white and male in most platforms.

You're not looking at the right places or engaging with the proper spaces then. Just go check out this whole podcast and all the guests in there. Or just look at this book series by Verso Books. Or think of names like Angela Davis, Françoise Vergès, Ruth Wilson Gilmore, Arundhati Roy, Crystal Fleming, @queersocialism, Christina Heatherton, Robin D.G. Kelley, George Lipsitz, Fred Moten, Paul Ortiz, Steven Osuna, Kwame M. Phillips, Uday Jayn, Shana L. Redmond, Cedric J. Robinson, Nikhil Pal Singh, Ash Sakar, Darryl C. Thomas, and @prisonculture, Mark Anthony Neal (for good and bad :lol). Even W.E.B. Dubois used Marxism/historical materialism! And this is not to prop up socialists/anarcho-commies of color as excusing the left's problem with Whiteness, but to show that if we want to care about emancipation and liberation from the oppression and forms of domination in global society, we need to listen to these incredibly insightful people.

Seriously, there's such a wealth of race+capitalist scholars & activists of color out there and once you dig into the names and bibliographies and outlets, it becomes very clear what issues we need to address in dismantling the forms of oppression across racial and economic lines.

That multiracial front looks like a front, and then is seen as just that. You can say they are outfoxed by the media, but if you are gonna talk intersectional, look it and do it too.

In the US & EU activist spaces I've followed offline and online, it does definitely seem like it is multiracial. The hard activist work is mostly coming from people of color with flawed support by some younger white people, but that's also because the former usually also belong to lower social classes by living under white supremacy. But in my view, those people out of color protesting on the streets for better wages, abolishment of prison and police, healthcare, etc. are Black, non-White Latinx, and Native Americans and that is not just a racial struggle, but also a class struggle.

For the challenger/changer to win, they gotta look MUCH better.

Like I mentioned, if we and people in general digged a bit deeper, we/they'd see the radical potential along racial and class lines that has always historically been there and continues to be there. And our emancipation is not going to come from ignoring how both race and class intertwine and reproduce each other.

So I just want to stress that we don't have to follow the narrative of whitebro socialism or whatever narrative rich people want to prop up in order to be unaffected by class demands (although I can understand the frustration with white people as Haider also addresses), but instead we should seek out and understand the voices that combine the racial and economic (and anti-war) perspectives that are so sorely needed in US (and EU) political discourse.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
"He would not be President if he were not a white man"

is not the same as

"If someone is a white man, he is president"
Astonishing that this needs to be explained, tbh

What I said was that being white or male doesn't really help you become a president that much.
Are you fucking kidding me, holy shit...

Name another country where the statement:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Is at the core of it's existence.

The problems with racism, violence, and inequality in the United States today is that it is a direct attack on what once made the United States something unique.
Name this mythical time period where this statement was actually reflected in the reality of the US, please?

These things are all attacks on the idea, for sure, but the notion that the US was once truly the embodiment of this idea is laughable. You've got long, long ways to go still.

pretty wack, honestly.
Care to elaborate?

DJI5mfOXoAEIWS4.jpg:large


This hit me right in the fucking gut.
I'd even add something like "But especially not a woman, no matter her intellect or qualifications" to that. Depressing all around.

" It is as if the white tribe united in demonstration to say, “If a black man can be president, then any white man—no matter how fallen—can be president.”

I feel like we all knew this subconsciously but I haven't seen it put into words until now.
Reminds me of the infamous LBJ quote:
quote-i-ll-tell-you-what-s-at-the-bottom-of-it-if-you-can-convince-the-lowest-white-man-he-lyndon-b-johnson-107-70-60.jpg
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
That only works if they are willing to listen, and places the extra burden on POC to educate.

It's also up against Fuck You Got Mine syndrome. Nevermind said people are a ok with others suffering.

That is a lot of barriers for a POC to hurdle over to even get an ear.

At least it presents some sort of path forward for progress.

What's the alternative? It's not like they are going to be more willing to listen and learn when there's nothing in it for them. Do we just wait until the voting age population is majority–minority and hope that those racists don't destroy democracy and go full facist before that can happen?

Coates article is great at pointing out the problems of "class not race" and I'm glad it exists. But when asked "now what?" Coates has no answer. There's kinda no where to go but back to making just enough racist poor white people want to join minorities for their own benefit, at best creating a situation where tribal osmosis will shape them to be an anti-racist ally, or at worst creating a cold political calculation for a vote. From there it's just a question on if going farther on class issues opens up more or less space for race issues.

Which itself is maybe falling right back into the problem that Coates is talking about in the piece. But if there's no better answer, what else can you do?
 

jufonuk

not tag worthy
Woo had a dream this morning that nuclear war was declared by this man.

Scared the shit out of me. Only a dream though. Right? Right?
 
Interview with NPR, though it was worth adding. Not too hopeful though!



http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswi...te-supremacy-ta-nehisi-coates-on-donald-trump

Why couldn't the same forces that triumphed over slavery, segregation, Jim Crow and laws against interracial marriage prevail again? The way he phrases things sometimes sounds like absolutely nothing has changed in 400 years, rather than, "We've overcome incredible odds due to the sacrifice of millions, but we still have a long way to go." He makes it sound like every slain activist died for nothing, like they're still at square one. I mean, there aren't enough black CEOs, politicians and other positions of power but there are a hell of a lot more than there were 100 years ago.

I can understand being hopeless in the age of Trump but he comes from a long line of activists who made incredible strides over the last 50 years, despite moderate whites barely doing anything to help. The country may be more racist than it was 10 years ago, but it's obviously not more racist than it was in 1950.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
Why couldn't the same forces that triumphed over slavery, segregation, Jim Crow and laws against interracial marriage prevail again? The way he phrases things sometimes sounds like absolutely nothing has changed in 400 years, rather than, "We've overcome incredible odds due to the sacrifice of millions, but we still have a long way to go." He makes it sound like every slain activist died for nothing, like they're still at square one. I mean, there aren't enough black CEOs, politicians and other positions of power but there are a hell of a lot more than there were 100 years ago.

I can understand being hopeless in the age of Trump but he comes from a long line of activists who made incredible strides over the last 50 years, despite moderate whites barely doing anything to help. The country may be more racist than it was 10 years ago, but it's obviously not more racist than it was in 1950.

Because the core ideology that kept African-Americans and people of color down back then is just as prominent as it is today and is routinely ignored when brought up as an issue. We've gotten a bit better, sure, but look at all the people trying to pretend Trump's election was due to anything but white supremacy. The actual data tells us this is the case and it is routinely ignored and explained away by people who are supposed to be allies.

A white supremacist legal framework is still in place. Jim Crow still exists, to a degree, we just call it by different names: the war on drugs, broken windows policing, and so on and so on. Same with the basic ideology itself. Why do you think middle America is considered "real America" by so many, despite the fact it doesn't resemble the everyday reality of a majority of Americans? In our elections urban issues are viewed with much less importance than rural ones and the "working class" means "white working class" despite white people not being a majority in that particular demographic. Then there's immigration policy and how we view education funding and a million other things. Hell, what's going on with Kaep is an example!

Until the day comes where we can have a real conversation about white supremacist ideology, any progress we make is incremental at best. It's like turning the AC on because you're hot, but you're hot because your apartment is on fire. Until you deal with the underlying issue nothing is really going to change. You'll just be playing whack-a-mole while your apartment burns down around you.

We're just as racist as we used to be, the only difference is we gave everything different names, agreed not to do certain things, and agreed not to use certain words and phrases. The ideas driving that racism are just as prominent as they once were though.
 

Slayven

Member
Why couldn't the same forces that triumphed over slavery, segregation, Jim Crow and laws against interracial marriage prevail again? The way he phrases things sometimes sounds like absolutely nothing has changed in 400 years, rather than, "We've overcome incredible odds due to the sacrifice of millions, but we still have a long way to go." He makes it sound like every slain activist died for nothing, like they're still at square one. I mean, there aren't enough black CEOs, politicians and other positions of power but there are a hell of a lot more than there were 100 years ago.

I can understand being hopeless in the age of Trump but he comes from a long line of activists who made incredible strides over the last 50 years, despite moderate whites barely doing anything to help. The country may be more racist than it was 10 years ago, but it's obviously not more racist than it was in 1950.
You are mistaking grim acceptance with defeatism. The fact you are saying "at least they aren't hanging you in public anymore" pretty much proves his point.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
You are mistaking grim acceptance with defeatism. The fact you are saying "at least they aren't hanging you in public anymore" pretty much proves his point.

In fairness all we did was change out the rope for a gun and say you needed something that resembled an excuse.
 

Slayven

Member
At least it presents some sort of path forward for progress.

What's the alternative? It's not like they are going to be more willing to listen and learn when there's nothing in it for them. Do we just wait until the voting age population is majority–minority and hope that those racists don't destroy democracy and go full facist before that can happen?

Coates article is great at pointing out the problems of "class not race" and I'm glad it exists. But when asked "now what?" Coates has no answer. There's kinda no where to go but back to making just enough racist poor white people want to join minorities for their own benefit, at best creating a situation where tribal osmosis will shape them to be an anti-racist ally, or at worst creating a cold political calculation for a vote. From there it's just a question on if going farther on class issues opens up more or less space for race issues.

Which itself is maybe falling right back into the problem that Coates is talking about in the piece. But if there's no better answer, what else can you do?
hell getting them to admit the problem would be a monumental start

In fairness all we did was change out the rope for a gun and say you needed something that resembled an excuse.
This is true
 
What an insightful and important piece.

There are a lot of pieces that deal with capitalism or racism or any other virulence that enabled Trump's. But this one is particularly powerful and undeniable in its conclusions.
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
hell getting them to admit the problem would be a monumental start


This is true

Maybe someone like Sanders privately does, but publically doesn't. Coates alluded to this.

One can, to some extent, understand politicians' embracing a self-serving identity politics. Candidates for high office, such as Sanders, have to cobble together a coalition. The white working class is seen, understandably, as a large cache of potential votes, and capturing these votes requires eliding uncomfortable truths. But journalists have no such excuse.

But yes, there should be more of it from journalists.

He mentions Nicholas Kristof and for some reason I have him flagged as a huge racist in my memory, even worse than your average journalist who denies racism, but I can't remember for what.
 
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