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The House in Fata Morgana |OT| Obsession. Sadism. Avarice. Zealotry. Death.

E

emag

Member
Loz246789 said:
Well uh, a few things before I give a verdict here:
The plot does eventually change it up. Although I'd say if you're dismissing the stories so far as fairy tales/fables, even what the plot eventually becomes may be still have that vibe? (I honestly don't know what you're on about, but the game is tonally consistent for the most part. Also, for what it's worth, the game's not telling you these stories for no reason.)

Also, it's a visual novel, not a traditional game or even an ace attorney scenario, forget any pre-conceptions about playing anything. There are more choices more frequently later that are a bit more meaningful, but they're a means to an end to tell the story, rather than being there to be fun and engaging. It's a book with a bigger budget, that allows for a soundtrack and art assets. That's the package, basically.

If you feel like you've been just approaching this in the wrong frame of mind, then I'd say to try chapter 3? It's a little bit different from the previous two chapters in a few subtle ways, so you might latch onto something of substance there that allows you to get through the novel, and the quality does generally trend upwards as you go through. But it's not like a 1/10 to a 10/10 difference, so if you hated doors 1 and 2 in their entirety and found nothing enjoyable about them at all, it might not be for you.
Click to expand...

I don't have anything against fairy tales, but the quality of the stories themselves is extremely low, whether by modern (Gaiman) or classic (Grimm, Aesop) standards. Worse, what ought to be a few pages (probably paragraphs) of content is stretched out to multiple hours. That might be forgivable if the writing were clever or engaging, but instead it is puerile even by video game standards.

I didn't realize there was a demo; else I might have saved myself some cash if not time.
 
S

sbs2601

Neo Member
emag said:
I don't have anything against fairy tales, but the quality of the stories themselves is extremely low, whether by modern (Gaiman) or classic (Grimm, Aesop) standards. Worse, what ought to be a few pages (probably paragraphs) of content is stretched out to multiple hours. That might be forgivable if the writing were clever or engaging, but instead it is puerile even by video game standards.

I didn't realize there was a demo; else I might have saved myself some cash if not time.
Click to expand...

But they are neither fairy tales nor fables, no matter how you spin it. There is only one fairy tale in this VN and you haven't reached it yet.
 
M

MilkBeard

Member
emag said:
I don't have anything against fairy tales, but the quality of the stories themselves is extremely low, whether by modern (Gaiman) or classic (Grimm, Aesop) standards. Worse, what ought to be a few pages (probably paragraphs) of content is stretched out to multiple hours. That might be forgivable if the writing were clever or engaging, but instead it is puerile even by video game standards.

I didn't realize there was a demo; else I might have saved myself some cash if not time.
Click to expand...

The game is probably just not for you. People say that the game gets better after the first two chapters, but even then, you will have an idea of the way the game tells its stories in the first two chapters. If there is nothing at all that you can find good there, then best to move on.

But I have to ask--what video games are you playing that make the writing in THiFM seem childish?

I've been playing games since I was young, and I would say that this game is top-tier in terms of video game writing. It might not be as good as a well-written novel, but I haven't found a game that reaches that height, personally.

I'm just curious, really. Let me know what these games are that you would say makes this game childish or poor. At least so we can get an idea of what you consider good writing.
 
S

sbs2601

Neo Member
Fairy tales and fables are stories that weave heavy fantasy elements into their plot such as talking animals and magic, and otherwise would not work without them. (Door 1&2)
Even without the supernatural elements of the story, Mell and the Beast would still inevitably meet tragic ends due to both their inherent character flaws and their surrounding circumstances, just not in the same dramatic fashion as you see in the door. Door 2's big twist should have made it obvious the very limited role fantasy elements play in these stories.
Condensing the stories into fables of a few pages long would not only completely change the whole purpose of the stories themselves, but also severely limit characterization and foreshadowing for the later parts of the VN.
 
E

emag

Member
sbs2601 said:
Fairy tales and fables are stories that weave heavy fantasy elements into their plot such as talking animals and magic, and otherwise would not work without them.
Click to expand...
Hansel and Gretel is one of the best known fairy tales in the US/Europe, and the most magical element therein is an edible house, which could easily be replaced with a house with edible treats on the window sill.
Condensing the stories into fables of a few pages long would not only completely change the whole purpose of the stories themselves, but also severely limit characterization and foreshadowing for the later parts of the VN.
Click to expand...

Verbosity is not a requirement for characterization or foreshadowing. A good two-hour movie does a better job of both than most 100-hour RPGs.

Comparing apples to apples, a short story like October in the Chair is shorter yet far deeper than Door 1 & 2 (alone or combined).

MilkBeard said:
The game is probably just not for you. People say that the game gets better after the first two chapters, but even then, you will have an idea of the way the game tells its stories in the first two chapters. If there is nothing at all that you can find good there, then best to move on.

But I have to ask--what video games are you playing that make the writing in THiFM seem childish?
Click to expand...

I think you're right. I've been trying to convince myself that I didn't waste my time and money on Fata Morgana, but I'm better off cutting my losses.

Off the top of my head, I'd say that among recent releases, Tales From The Borderlands, The Walking Dead S1, The Last of Us/Left Behind, The Witcher 3, and Life Is Strange were all significantly better written and more mature than THiFM. That's not including IF like Slouching Towards Bedlam and Life's Lottery. I even found the Ace Attorney games and 999/VLR to be better, but they're both admittedly quite juvenile as well.
 
A

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
I kinda agree that the prose of the first 2 doors honestly reads as too heavy handed in its gothic fantasy, but you might hold off judgement about maturity of the writing, because this story (heavy spoilers but you're probably not going to give a shit anyway given your tone) handles
trans identity
far better than any game I've encountered.
 
L

Loz246789

Member
I feel like this is as good a time as any to lay our cards on the table as people who have finished the game. If anyone hasn't finished the game but plans to, don't read this. This is mainly for people who don't plan to finish the game, but want to know broadly why people like the writing.

If chapters 1 through 3 were independent tales, yes you probably could have them be a few pages long each. There's a discussion to be had here about how long *any* tale needs to be, and if a two hour movie is the optimum way of telling a story, and a bunch of other stuff like that which could probably be better handled by someone else, but as concepts the first three doors are relatively simple so I'm just going to brush aside most of that. There's some flawed characters, a relationship of some description with a white haired girl, shit hits the fan. There you go, I summarised THREE doors in a sentence, I'm sure you could actually do it properly in a few pages each.

But of course, these doors are part of a grander narrative, and I don't just mean the Maid and the main character reflect on the door afterwards. If anything, that's the excuse the novel uses, not its actual reason. WAAAAY later in the novel, all of these characters from these doors return as part of the greater plot, and it's important that these characters are not only established, not only come across as nuanced, but are actually memorable and (to greater and lesser extents) enjoyed as characters by the reader. By the time this point in the game rolls around, you should already have a good idea who these characters are as people, rather than just characters in a short story, and this information is important due to the context of the characters return being very different to the context they were presented in initially. If you don't remember who they are as people, then you have no clues to work with.

... Also, there's foreshadowing all over the place in these doors, and you don't even need to have beaten the novel to spot some of it. Some of it's pretty obvious, even if you don't know what it means. GEE THE MAID IS BEING PRETTY CRYPTIC RIGHT NOW, I WONDER IF I CAN TAKE HER AT FACE VALUE, etc.
 
E

Eien1no1Yami

Member
I just finished door 2 and went into door 3.

I'm also one of the guys that really likes the writing and the stories.

I even liked the story of door 1, maybe even more so than that of door 2, because of the fact that it's the first story you read and so you don't really know yet how serious this journey is going to be, so when things get real it really has a great impact on you.

Also I read some of the replies above that the writing in games like WD, Life is Strange and
TLOU is better, but I just can't can't disagree more.
Although I haven't played a lot of VNs, I've played a lot of other games since late 90s
and THOFM has one of the best writings I've read.It has me hooked since the beginning and I don't feel it's dragging at any moment.

Furthermore I would like to make a prediction about the
white haired girl
By the hint the game gave me just before going into door 3,
the white haired girl is the Master that the maid is travelling with and as we've seen so far in the stories, she is the femme fatal, the woman that brings misfortune to every person she meets despite her kindness
.So at the end of the game there will be choice.
You will have to choose between erasing the white haired girl from existence, because if she wasn't involved people probably would have lived a better life, or keeping the girl alive and accepting things as they are.
Something along those lines

And a final question, can someone spoiler-tag how many doors are there?
Also after the final door, does the game still goes on?
 
M

MilkBeard

Member
emag said:
Hansel and Gretel is one of the best known fairy tales in the US/Europe, and the most magical element therein is an edible house, which could easily be replaced with a house with edible treats on the window sill.

Verbosity is not a requirement for characterization or foreshadowing. A good two-hour movie does a better job of both than most 100-hour RPGs.

Comparing apples to apples, a short story like October in the Chair is shorter yet far deeper than Door 1 & 2 (alone or combined).



I think you're right. I've been trying to convince myself that I didn't waste my time and money on Fata Morgana, but I'm better off cutting my losses.

Off the top of my head, I'd say that among recent releases, Tales From The Borderlands, The Walking Dead S1, The Last of Us/Left Behind, The Witcher 3, and Life Is Strange were all significantly better written and more mature than THiFM. That's not including IF like Slouching Towards Bedlam and Life's Lottery. I even found the Ace Attorney games and 999/VLR to be better, but they're both admittedly quite juvenile as well.
Click to expand...

I understand your points, but as someone who writes, I must say that you shouldn't compare short stories with fragmented pieces of longer narratives. Short stories are meant to be tight and concise, and are as a whole, on a different level from novels. You just can't simply compare a door in this game to a complete short story; in the story contained in a door, you get a small arc that completes itself but said story is only a small piece in the entire story of the game. You have no idea why the writers chose to tell that story, and how it fits in the bigger picture.

That being said, if the writing doesn't appeal to you, it doesn't appeal to you. I have only played The Walking Dead and Witcher 3 out of those games you mentioned, and while they do showcase good writing, I can't say that they are better written than The House in Fata Morgana. It also should be kept in mind that The Witcher 3 had an entire series of books to draw from, and definitely should not be considered 'video game standard' in terms of writing. Witcher 3 stands above most games in that department, partly because of what I mentioned, and partly because of CDProjectRed's faithfulness in bringing it to life in video game form. You also are comparing two small stories in the beginning of the game, of which are only barely scratching the surface of the entire plot, to the writing of those games as a whole.

If I were to guess, I would say the problem itself isn't as much the writing as it is the content and characters don't appeal to you. I'm not saying the writing is perfect, and as others have said, some elements in the first two chapters are a bit heavy-handed at times, but they still showcase quality stories (in my opinion). I also have a criticism for something that happens later in the game, but overall, to me, THiFM showcases characters in a way that many games do not.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see if you continue playing. The story goes from these distinct smaller arcs that somehow only feel vaguely connected, to everything being closely connected on a grander scheme.

One more note: I also don't think the 2-hour movie format should be compared either. Oftentimes, I sit through a movie thinking: "They could have developed this plot further if it weren't limited to the 2-hour movie format." I usually end up thinking this way about any bigger story that the director chose to tell and fit it in the standard run time. Lord of the Rings is a good example that breaks free of this, as those movies did not feel truncated, and ran a bit longer than the normal runtime. Basically, my point is, a lot of movies suffer because of the limited screen time.
 
S

sbs2601

Neo Member
emag said:
Hansel and Gretel is one of the best known fairy tales in the US/Europe, and the most magical element therein is an edible house, which could easily be replaced with a house with edible treats on the window sill.

Verbosity is not a requirement for characterization or foreshadowing.
Click to expand...
I'm not only talking about how the plot of these stories work, though I would argue most fairy tales&fables would change in nature if written in an entirely grounded way. What I also mean by "work" is that these stories' target audience are children/young adults, and most of the target audience need fantasy elements to attract them and keep them engaged. There's a reason why you don't see O Henry incorporating fantasy into his famous short stories. There are completely different reasons for the inclusion of the supernatural in this VN, as well as all the (door 1+2)
seemingly over the top melodrama that comes with it (hint: try to think of who or what would desire and enjoy all this melodrama and suffering;they've already appeared in the story)
.

Can the first two stories be trimmed down a bit? Sure. In particular, I found the scenes involving
Pauline
to be way longer than necessary. But like Loz said, in the context of the entire VN, these stories cannot afford to be condensed in that manner.

In addition to the excellent explanation by Loz, if you don't plan on finishing the VN anyways, you might as well read this essay and at least take in arguably the biggest take-home message of this story:
https://nemuromemorialhall.wordpres...ithout-forgiveness-the-house-in-fata-morgana/
 
E

emag

Member
I'm not going to play any more of the game (I cannot overlook the verbosity and word choice of the prose when there's so much other media with which I can spend my limited time), but I appreciate the responses (and the link to the essay posted by sbs, which I've now read).
 
L

Loz246789

Member
*Listens to website track*
*Screaming internally*
Has someone made a thread? Someone needs to make a thread. This legitimately seems really cool.
 
K

KharmaPolice

Member
Awesome song. Bit disappointed by the generic anime artstyle even it is very colorful. Day 1 for me anyway.

And yeah, this definitely should have a thread.
 
F

Funyarinpa

Member
Loz246789 said:
*Listens to website track*
*Screaming internally*
Has someone made a thread? Someone needs to make a thread. This legitimately seems really cool.
Click to expand...

Give me a moment I'll create one.

Found a couple icons, the main illustration on the website, and a .mp3 link for the website music in the source. Will post those as well.
 
bobawesome

bobawesome

Member
I saw that I could download Erasmus for free from Novectacle's site, so I did. Anyone know of a English translation floating around or do we need to hope and pray that MangaGamer eventually get to it?
 
M

MilkBeard

Member
Wow, looks cool, the concept at least. I'm not too keen on the almost generic looking character designs, although at the same time, there are some really cool ideas in those designs, so it's kind of mixed there for me.

Music is good. Can't wait. Bring on the story and characters, Novectacle.
 
K

Kieli

Member
I can't get it out of my head. Been thinking about the ending non-stop for the past 2 days.

Once I get my thoughts together, I'll be posting a fairly lengthy write-up of what I thought.
 
E

Eien1no1Yami

Member
I finished the game yesterday and fell in love with it.

Before this one Steins'Gate was my favourite VN but after finishing it, Fata Morgana easily reached the top.
I mean it's not like I've read a lot of VNs but I can hardly image any other to be of the quality of THIFM in terms of good/mature dialogue, characters and themes.
One other thing that THIFM stands out from the others VNs is that it doesn't have most of the usual anime tropes that other VNs have.There may still be a few of them inside but it's the exception and not the rule.That was something that I found very refreshing.

The only gripe that I may have with the game is how it handled the different endings, which I didn't find that much interesting to be honest.
When I first started the game I also claimed that it's evident that the production values are pretty low and I thought then that it would affect my overall enjoyment, but after finishing it, really none of those technical things mattered.


Finally I have some questions regarding the other THIFM media.

Has anyone read the manga, is it any good?I know that as of right now it's only in Japanese but we may have some Japanese speakers here :p.

Also, is there a drama audio cd series?Again has anyone listened to it?Is it any good?

I'm asking all of these questions because my hunger for more THIFM has just began and I want to consume more xD.
 
L

Loz246789

Member
Eien1no1Yami said:
I finished the game yesterday and fell in love with it.

Before this one Steins'Gate was my favourite VN but after finishing it, Fata Morgana easily reached the top.
I mean it's not like I've read a lot of VNs but I can hardly image any other to be of the quality of THIFM in terms of good/mature dialogue, characters and themes.
One other thing that THIFM stands out from the others VNs is that it doesn't have most of the usual anime tropes that other VNs have.There may still be a few of them inside but it's the exception and not the rule.That was something that I found very refreshing.

The only gripe that I may have with the game is how it handled the different endings, which I didn't find that much interesting to be honest.
When I first started the game I also claimed that it's evident that the production values are pretty low and I thought then that it would affect my overall enjoyment, but after finishing it, really none of those technical things mattered.


Finally I have some questions regarding the other THIFM media.

Has anyone read the manga, is it any good?I know that as of right now it's only in Japanese but we may have some Japanese speakers here :p.

Also, is there a drama audio cd series?Again has anyone listened to it?Is it any good?

I'm asking all of these questions because my hunger for more THIFM has just began and I want to consume more xD.
Click to expand...

Congrats on finishing Fata Morgana! Yeah it's pretty great.

I can't really comment on the manga (I uh, didn't even know it existed until I read your post), and I can't really comment on the drama cds beyond "they exist", but I can tell you that if you want more Fata Morgana, Requiem of Innocence is 90% translated! (And uh, 44% edited, but don't let the facts get in the way of hype.) So hopefully that happens some time this year.
 
E

Eien1no1Yami

Member
Loz246789 said:
Congrats on finishing Fata Morgana! Yeah it's pretty great.

I can't really comment on the manga (I uh, didn't even know it existed until I read your post), and I can't really comment on the drama cds beyond "they exist", but I can tell you that if you want more Fata Morgana, Requiem of Innocence is 90% translated! (And uh, 44% edited, but don't let the facts get in the way of hype.) So hopefully that happens some time this year.
Click to expand...

Thanks, here is a section that I found on youtube.
Man, it's so good xD
 
M

MilkBeard

Member
Hello everyone, I just wanted to say it has been a pleasure talking about House in Fata Morgana here. I am leaving Gaf, and making my home at S L & E N T for now. I'm pretty sure there's someone else from this thread over there as well. If anyone wants to join, it's a decent place.

Anyway, peace out.
 
U

Usobuko

Banned
MilkBeard said:
Requiem for Innocence is 82% translated. Getting hype.
Click to expand...

MilkBeard said:
Hello everyone, I just wanted to say it has been a pleasure talking about House in Fata Morgana here. I am leaving Gaf, and making my home at S L & E N T for now. I'm pretty sure there's someone else from this thread over there as well. If anyone wants to join, it's a decent place.

Anyway, peace out.
Click to expand...

Yep.

Fata Morgana GAF has been great.
 
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