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The japanese market decline mostly responsible for stale feeling gaming is getting?
- Thread starter pramath
- Start date
Rhazer Fusion
Member
I thought it was the fault of FPS.
Yes, imo that is definitely contributing and I actually like FPS.
There's really no disputing that Japanese third parties have not even had close to the same level of success on home consoles this gen. Western third parties have done their thing fairly well, but it's just not enough to keep things interesting - esp with the long console cycle.
Military shooters didnt replace them because there was military shooters back then to that were very popular. Tactical military shooters have been replaced by dumbed down run and gun shooters.
Bioshock is also pretty dumbed down when you compare it to how hard and complex System Shock was.
I just think its a console problem. Developers know console owners will buy easier hand holdy experiences over games with depth. Look at Uncharted.
Well you still have arena shooters they just don't have the same popularity. The demand for arena shooters, simply declined and got replaced. Even then you still have outlets to get your arena shooter fix(quake live, Tribes:Ascend, UTIII, etc.).
Dumbed down? What the hell are; Arma II and Operation Flashpoint?
Complex =/= better.
Yeah you should look into buying a PC it seems you've been missing out.
You hit the nail on the head. Developers will stop making CoD and Uncharted derivatives when those games stop selling. So next time one of your buddies buys another CoD, return and exchange his copy of MW4 for Persona 4. If he remarks that he doesn't play "that gay japanese shit" tell him;
"Does CoD allow you to have 7 girls on call? Didn't think so."
And in a few years, Atlus will become the new Infinity Ward.
Im talkin Consoles.. I dont see anything like Arma II on consoles... which is a game I play on PC.
Then why do I miss it so much?
Not all games have to be complex, but when they are all not complex that because developers want them to sell more on consoles.. that sucks.
I am a PC gamer and this is why I see it as a console problem...
Even John Carmike admits he wont make a new game like Quake Arena because its no good without mouse and keyboard and he wants to make AAA games which means they have to be console friendly. Shit like that pisses me off.
Contrary to popular belief PC gaming is part of the games industry.
You can miss it. I for one am glad the gaming tresh hold got lower. I have more real life friends playing games than ever before.
Snowden's Secret
Banned
I know you said Japanese third parties, but Nintendo essentially is the Japanese industry, and not only published a huge variety of content but almost single handedly grew the entire industry to new heights this gen. So I'm not entirely sure "Japan" is the issue here.
KirbYuuYuu
Member
So Basically, Japan is the issue here?
ExitPlanetDust
Member
It's just a perfect storm, really.
One of the major reasons we were playing games mostly from Japan in earlier console generations is because Japanese developers were the only ones putting out quality games for the console market. I may be generalizing, but it seemed like Western developers were mostly sticking to expensive PC experiences or shoddy, half assed platformers on consoles. Madden and a hand full of other Western titles broke through, but for the most part everything that was worth playing on a console was coming from Japan.
It makes sense. Nintendo basically brought the video game market back to life in the 1980s. From there you had Nintendo and SEGA, two Japanese companies, competing for the number one console spot with relatively affordable gaming hardware (in the West, at least).
For all of the a heavy-handed design choices in those old Japanese games, they were memorable and the polish was good. The industry was spilling out of the arcades and into livingrooms and people didn't mind the difficulty and strict game design. Even then, video gaming was a niche hobby, game developers didn't have to please the everyman.
Things got bigger in the 90s and I would argue that Sony brought video gaming mainstream with the Playstation brand. Anime was cool and people often stopped me to ask if I had seen "Akira" or "Ninja Scroll" when I was wearing my "Hook-ups" t-shirt. You saw more people playing games than before, many of the newcomer customers were permanent casuals. Western developers stuck mostly to the PC, though we were starting to see more polished offerings from them in the console market. Maybe the newer hardware gelled with their design choices. Maybe it was just easier to port PC games to the home market now.
In my eyes, Japanese game developers and their design choices would hang on for another generation. The Playstation 2 was undoubtedly the console to own. Still a Japanese system by design with its inherit hardware quirks and flaws, the public embraced it when promised an extension of the Playstation years. Microsoft released the Xbox, and though it may not have been a threat to the mighty PS2, it was essentially a PC. This gave a lot of Western developers the opportunity to develop for hardware they were more familiar with. No more dealing with custom console hardware. It also introduced a very online connected philosophy to the console world, marketed more aggressive than any console before it. Something already popular in the West with roots in a very dominant, mostly Windows PC market. SEGA may have touched on this with the Dreamcast, but Microsoft had the money and the longevity to bring it to fruition.
A key change in the next generation would be the credibility Microsoft had earned in the West and their earlier launch of the Xbox 360. Sony went with decidedly more difficult architecture that may or may not pay off at a premium price point. Both went to war over HD DVD VS Blu-ray while Nintendo went off in a different direction entirely. The 360 sold poorly in Japan despite Microsoft's attempts to court major Japanese developers.
Here's where the perfect storm comes into play. I think a few things happened simultaneously that lead to the Japanese video game stagnation we see today. I'll just throw them into a freeway pileup of bullet points.
-The 360 is positioned to become the gamer's console this time around. It has a distinctly Western flavor and many of the early adopters owned the previous Xbox. The online infrastructure is there and the console architecture continues its PC like familiarity.
-The 360 doesn't sell well in Japan, so Japanese devs figure, "why bother?" For once, the playing field is a bit more level in the West as consumers are more likely to give Western developed games a shot. Japanese developers don't seem to embrace the online nature and other game design shifts of this quickly growing community.
-Many consumers who may have moved on to more years of Playstation are a bit more wary now. They take a wait and see approach and either stick with their PS2, move onto the 360, or try out a new experience with the Wii. This further stunts the growth of Japanese game development as many of the big name studios just continue to support the PS2 or move on to other development entirely... like handheld gaming.
-The gaming community changes even more. Genres that Japanese developers are unfamiliar with begin to dominate the console market. Budgets bloat and the West becomes the money market to cater to rather than the East in previous generations.
So how does it all end up? The newer generation of console gamers largely doesn't give a damn about Japanese games. The Japanese developers have mostly ignored them and are now trying to play catchup by copying Western developed games. Though it doesn't matter much. A vocal discourse toward Japanese games and pop culture in general has grown out of this new Western market. Anime isn't cool anymore and no one seems to be able to get past the pretty boys in the leading role of a new Japanese game. For whatever reason, the Japanese market as a whole has become more cut off and alienated from these would-be western consumers.
I believe that if Japanese developers were to start making the games a lot of the old guard want them to, not many people would buy them. The days of Japanese games dominating retail shelves and sales charts are over. If we see that kind of game design and creativity again, it probably won't come from Japan. There are a few exceptions with specific genres hanging around. However, for the most part, those days are gone.
You can pick all of that apart however you want. I have been a console (and to a lesser extent, PC) gamer most of my life. I was old enough to thoroughly enjoy the 2600 toward the tail end of its glory. I argued SNES VS Genesis in the schoolyard, dreamed of the day I could affort a Neo Geo AES and rode the 32/64-bit wave, wide eyed, through the later half of the 90s. I've been an arcade rat and a 3 am Quake III Arena player. This is just my sideline take on what's happened in the industry and an opinion as to why.
One of the major reasons we were playing games mostly from Japan in earlier console generations is because Japanese developers were the only ones putting out quality games for the console market. I may be generalizing, but it seemed like Western developers were mostly sticking to expensive PC experiences or shoddy, half assed platformers on consoles. Madden and a hand full of other Western titles broke through, but for the most part everything that was worth playing on a console was coming from Japan.
It makes sense. Nintendo basically brought the video game market back to life in the 1980s. From there you had Nintendo and SEGA, two Japanese companies, competing for the number one console spot with relatively affordable gaming hardware (in the West, at least).
For all of the a heavy-handed design choices in those old Japanese games, they were memorable and the polish was good. The industry was spilling out of the arcades and into livingrooms and people didn't mind the difficulty and strict game design. Even then, video gaming was a niche hobby, game developers didn't have to please the everyman.
Things got bigger in the 90s and I would argue that Sony brought video gaming mainstream with the Playstation brand. Anime was cool and people often stopped me to ask if I had seen "Akira" or "Ninja Scroll" when I was wearing my "Hook-ups" t-shirt. You saw more people playing games than before, many of the newcomer customers were permanent casuals. Western developers stuck mostly to the PC, though we were starting to see more polished offerings from them in the console market. Maybe the newer hardware gelled with their design choices. Maybe it was just easier to port PC games to the home market now.
In my eyes, Japanese game developers and their design choices would hang on for another generation. The Playstation 2 was undoubtedly the console to own. Still a Japanese system by design with its inherit hardware quirks and flaws, the public embraced it when promised an extension of the Playstation years. Microsoft released the Xbox, and though it may not have been a threat to the mighty PS2, it was essentially a PC. This gave a lot of Western developers the opportunity to develop for hardware they were more familiar with. No more dealing with custom console hardware. It also introduced a very online connected philosophy to the console world, marketed more aggressive than any console before it. Something already popular in the West with roots in a very dominant, mostly Windows PC market. SEGA may have touched on this with the Dreamcast, but Microsoft had the money and the longevity to bring it to fruition.
A key change in the next generation would be the credibility Microsoft had earned in the West and their earlier launch of the Xbox 360. Sony went with decidedly more difficult architecture that may or may not pay off at a premium price point. Both went to war over HD DVD VS Blu-ray while Nintendo went off in a different direction entirely. The 360 sold poorly in Japan despite Microsoft's attempts to court major Japanese developers.
Here's where the perfect storm comes into play. I think a few things happened simultaneously that lead to the Japanese video game stagnation we see today. I'll just throw them into a freeway pileup of bullet points.
-The 360 is positioned to become the gamer's console this time around. It has a distinctly Western flavor and many of the early adopters owned the previous Xbox. The online infrastructure is there and the console architecture continues its PC like familiarity.
-The 360 doesn't sell well in Japan, so Japanese devs figure, "why bother?" For once, the playing field is a bit more level in the West as consumers are more likely to give Western developed games a shot. Japanese developers don't seem to embrace the online nature and other game design shifts of this quickly growing community.
-Many consumers who may have moved on to more years of Playstation are a bit more wary now. They take a wait and see approach and either stick with their PS2, move onto the 360, or try out a new experience with the Wii. This further stunts the growth of Japanese game development as many of the big name studios just continue to support the PS2 or move on to other development entirely... like handheld gaming.
-The gaming community changes even more. Genres that Japanese developers are unfamiliar with begin to dominate the console market. Budgets bloat and the West becomes the money market to cater to rather than the East in previous generations.
So how does it all end up? The newer generation of console gamers largely doesn't give a damn about Japanese games. The Japanese developers have mostly ignored them and are now trying to play catchup by copying Western developed games. Though it doesn't matter much. A vocal discourse toward Japanese games and pop culture in general has grown out of this new Western market. Anime isn't cool anymore and no one seems to be able to get past the pretty boys in the leading role of a new Japanese game. For whatever reason, the Japanese market as a whole has become more cut off and alienated from these would-be western consumers.
I believe that if Japanese developers were to start making the games a lot of the old guard want them to, not many people would buy them. The days of Japanese games dominating retail shelves and sales charts are over. If we see that kind of game design and creativity again, it probably won't come from Japan. There are a few exceptions with specific genres hanging around. However, for the most part, those days are gone.
You can pick all of that apart however you want. I have been a console (and to a lesser extent, PC) gamer most of my life. I was old enough to thoroughly enjoy the 2600 toward the tail end of its glory. I argued SNES VS Genesis in the schoolyard, dreamed of the day I could affort a Neo Geo AES and rode the 32/64-bit wave, wide eyed, through the later half of the 90s. I've been an arcade rat and a 3 am Quake III Arena player. This is just my sideline take on what's happened in the industry and an opinion as to why.
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
I was writing something, but the dude above nailed it. I agree with basically everything, save for that Japan probably won't rule the chartz again.
Thing is, Western games were the hip new thing this gen... they started gaining prominence on the Xbox last gen, but I think we've seen that frankly, Western devs can't come up with new ideas to save their lives. I don't think sequelitis has ever been as bad as it is now, and while yes, that's dictated largely by budgets, it's insane how by-the-numbers games have become in such a short amount of time. Indie devs are kind of the exception, but even then, like 90% of indie games are just puzzle platformers with faux retro graphics now.
Point is, I think... I hope to God that it's almost Japan's time to step up to the plate again. Eventually, the morons running companies like Square and Konami have to wise up, or leave the company, or die... right? There's a lot of fresh talent, especially in some of the smaller studios, and it's only a matter of time until these devs are given a shot at doing bigger-budget projects that have all the gee-whiz effects to actually catch people's attention in the West.
Thing is, Western games were the hip new thing this gen... they started gaining prominence on the Xbox last gen, but I think we've seen that frankly, Western devs can't come up with new ideas to save their lives. I don't think sequelitis has ever been as bad as it is now, and while yes, that's dictated largely by budgets, it's insane how by-the-numbers games have become in such a short amount of time. Indie devs are kind of the exception, but even then, like 90% of indie games are just puzzle platformers with faux retro graphics now.
Point is, I think... I hope to God that it's almost Japan's time to step up to the plate again. Eventually, the morons running companies like Square and Konami have to wise up, or leave the company, or die... right? There's a lot of fresh talent, especially in some of the smaller studios, and it's only a matter of time until these devs are given a shot at doing bigger-budget projects that have all the gee-whiz effects to actually catch people's attention in the West.
D3RANG3D
Member
And Doujin games aren't like 90% shmup/touhou?
vgmthebest
Banned
Don't blame their market, blame the US economy.
Recession = less risks taken = more rehashes.
Recession = less risks taken = more rehashes.
Anticitizen One
Banned
I certainly think so. Japanese games used to play a major role in the industry but outside of maybe Nintendo Japanese games sucks because they are either too western trying to copy gears of war and uncharted or too eastern like platinum games and suda 51 stuff that is really for a niche market that wants wacky games. What happened to the balance that led to such greats as the original resident evils, silent hill, ff 6-9, chrono trigger, metal gear solid, devil may cry, onimusha, secret of mana, etc. etc.
KittyKittyBangBang
Member
I would agrue there are more exciting, innovative games coming out now then ever before. If you have a decent PC and your bored, you're doing it wrong.
Sure if all you play are consoles FPS's then yeah of course it could feel stale.
On the other side of the coin though, you have games like Kerbal Space Program, Minecraft, Day Z, Orcs must Die 2, etc that are all fairly unique and pretty diverse.
Sure if all you play are consoles FPS's then yeah of course it could feel stale.
On the other side of the coin though, you have games like Kerbal Space Program, Minecraft, Day Z, Orcs must Die 2, etc that are all fairly unique and pretty diverse.
The gaming industry hasn't become stale, some people just aren't willing to look beyond their comfort zone. There has never been so much variety in the gaming space and so many games being made.
What the market has become is more fragmented, there are more platforms than ever before and the console ecosystem is very different from the PS2 days.
If one isn't willing to look beyond the console retail market for his games he is going to miss out.
And the mentioned Japanese games have mostly moved on to different platforms too.
What the market has become is more fragmented, there are more platforms than ever before and the console ecosystem is very different from the PS2 days.
If one isn't willing to look beyond the console retail market for his games he is going to miss out.
And the mentioned Japanese games have mostly moved on to different platforms too.
John Rabbit
Banned
yes because this is solely a problem with Japanese games.
Of All Trades
Member
So don't play those and focus on the other 10%? I beat Botanicula last night, that was fun. I beat Splice a few days ago. If you have a 360 then go sort through the XBLIG section by rating, there's a lot of good stuff at the top that isn't what you describe.
Alternatively, citation needed.
Hitoribhoshi
Member
I agree with ExitPlanetDust, but for instance Apple(handheld market shifting to phones and 1$ games) and free to play are absent from his painted picture, and japan is having a pretty hard time to get up to date with that too, imo.
That 90% of indie games are puzzle platformers is a myth anyway. They just have more mindshare than other titles right now, because they have a larger appeal.
rohlfinator
Member
I think it's a combination of a few things:
-Recession and game prices (especially when DLC is factored in), and the battle against used games are causing gamers to prefer "sure bets"
-Rising focus on online multiplayer encourages gamers to seek out games with the healthiest community
-Rising dev costs and shareholder expectations causing publishers to focus on sure bets (which is somewhat of a vicious cycle because they need to increase dev/marketing costs to compete with blockbusters)
-Rise of indie games making "quirky" experiences readily available at much lower prices
The decline of the Japanese market factors into it somewhat, since more variety is always good, but I think they are being hit by a lot of the same factors.
This is the worst meme.
-Recession and game prices (especially when DLC is factored in), and the battle against used games are causing gamers to prefer "sure bets"
-Rising focus on online multiplayer encourages gamers to seek out games with the healthiest community
-Rising dev costs and shareholder expectations causing publishers to focus on sure bets (which is somewhat of a vicious cycle because they need to increase dev/marketing costs to compete with blockbusters)
-Rise of indie games making "quirky" experiences readily available at much lower prices
The decline of the Japanese market factors into it somewhat, since more variety is always good, but I think they are being hit by a lot of the same factors.
This is the worst meme.