i dont think it would be much different than showing kevin's journey in his alternate reality - if they can show that "answer", i dont see why they can show this one - i also understand the show is intentionally ambiguous, but I think you could've visually shown this reality for a good 40 minutes or so at least, explore it's concept, and then end it on a note of ambiguity, rather than just dole it out in an expository dump at the end of the final episode
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The Leftovers S3 |OT| The End Is Near - Premieres Sunday 4/16, 9pm on HBO
- Thread starter bodyofanamerican
- Start date
i dont think it would be much different than showing kevin's journey in his alternate reality - if they can show that "answer", i dont see why they can show this one - i also understand the show is intentionally ambiguous, but I think you could've visually shown this reality for a good 40 minutes or so at least, explore it's concept, and then end it on a note of ambiguity, rather than just dole it out in an expository dump at the end of the final episode
But they don't just "want to leave". They want to go wherever the Departed went. That's not caring for noone.
Not that I buy scientists would actually base their decision on such a question. Nor that nobody would ever leak what it is they're doing. Nor that they'd need to do all that shit clandestinely to begin with (again, animal testing? no?). It is all very, very clumsy.
"But still watch my next show! Just... don't think about it."
I wasn't talking about that though?
Human Trashcan
Banned
Beautiful ending. Totally loved it. Just outstanding work by Carrie Coon, who deserves all the awards for this role. Justin Theroux is amazing too.
The show has a history of allowing its characters to tell stories like Nora's, and it's the strength of the writing and performances that make them work. I don't think that this scene with Nora was any different. The content of the scene, i.e. the great script and Carrie Coon's incredible acting, were enough to deliver "the point". Having flashes of the alt-world or whatever would have only been distracting. It doesn't matter whether she's telling the truth or not -- all that we needed to know is that Nora moved on and that Kevin believes her.
What's with your compulsion to write these reductive, cartoonish paraphrases of shit nobody is actually saying
What's with your compulsion to write these reductive, cartoonish paraphrases of shit nobody is actually saying
digitalrelic
Banned
Well, first of all, the individuals deciding who stays and who gets to depart are dealing with a very heavy burden. They could very well be sending people to their deaths. So I can understand how it would be very important for them to know with absolute certainty that the people they're sending are truly ready to leave and understand the uncertainty and the risks involved. And not just on a surface level, but on a deep, subconscious level.
The science is imperfect and mysterious and as they said in the show, for all they know they could be sending people to outer space with no oxygen or into the middle of a slab of granite. So with all that said, the "cure cancer" question is very important. One of the scientists continuously got hung up with Nora because she didn't believe that she actually wanted to depart.
Secondly, it's a dramatic television show, and dramatic excess like this is perfectly acceptable within the confines of television or film. The whole animal testing thing you keep bringing up and "scientists wouldn't really base their decisions off of questions like that" is just kind of a silly argument to be making here IMO. It's a supernatural drama, and I feel like if you're going to have issues with the show you could pick a whole lot of other examples that are much stronger than "BUT ANIMAL TESTING!!". I don't even know what animal testing would do here, anyway. In the end they just have to trust that the animal/person departed, because there's no way to prove that it actually worked unless you're the one in the machine (which is kind of the entire point of this plotline with Nora throughout the season).
KraftyKrankins
Member
Finally managed to see the finale. I didn't need a sort-of-a-explanation for the Sudden Departure.
I cried at least three times though. It might've not been the most memorable ending to a TV series but seeing Kevin and Nora after so many years back together, her disbelief when he first showed up on the front door, his reaction to her leaving the wedding, it was what I needed. Thanks, Lindelof. Your show was far from perfect but the emotions it brought out of me are a proof you've grown up quite a bit as a storyteller. Thanks for everything.
I cried at least three times though. It might've not been the most memorable ending to a TV series but seeing Kevin and Nora after so many years back together, her disbelief when he first showed up on the front door, his reaction to her leaving the wedding, it was what I needed. Thanks, Lindelof. Your show was far from perfect but the emotions it brought out of me are a proof you've grown up quite a bit as a storyteller. Thanks for everything.
Corpsepyre
Banned
You know, with that ending, I just didn't care that I didn't get any real answers throughout the show. That was an asskicker of a finale. I was wanting answers, and there are posts here where I have constantly said I'm in a love/hate relationship with the show, but fuck answers.
Kevins journey actually happened to him when he died, with Nora the point is that we don't know if it happened to her or not
John Harker
Definitely doesn't make things up as he goes along.
What's to show? It doesn't exist, it was her character evolution. The whole show she exposes truths and brings people pain and suffering because of how she feels inside- "I don't lie!" - and after her journey and years of isolation, she has a chance again at happiness so she lies and makes up a story that allows her to be with Kevin again. And he accepts it with no questions - he went through his own spiritual journey, where he's now comfortable being vulnerable and exposed in a deep way - and they can actually attempt to be happy together.
It's beautiful. And kind of brilliant.
Because it can go either way. Whether he story is true or not, the only part that really matters is what the viewer believes.
I think Lindelof learned a lot from Lost. He directly applied that to the Leftovers and it accomplished its goal much better in a more satisfying way. However, it was not close to perfect and I found the sudden focus on Kevin and Nora's relationship a little out of no where based on the previous seasons, having binged them a few weeks before season 3.
Overall, I am satisfied.
Overall, I am satisfied.
"We might well be killing them, so we better ask them that cancer question."
Wut. How does that even follow?
Obviously, it's not like they're concerned about getting sued, and if they're actually concerned about their safety, well... just don't fucking do it, maybe? Don't rely on your subject's answer to some weird quiz question to somehow bail you out, anyway?
And that's the hang-up, for her? Not that they're conducting experiments that she thinks are very likely to be murders? Experiments that they don't seem to be expecting any kind of results from? "Never mind that, what we should make sure of is that they understand we might well be killing them!"?
That's already pretty damn absurd right there (what do you think those scientists' motivations would be, incidentally?), but then, they decide that the best way to make sure the subjects understand the risks is to ask them if they care at all about killing children or curing cancer? Whah?
Yeeeeah, it's that, isn't it?
Sure, that's just one thing. And no, I don't consider "it's drama" an excuse for shoddy writing.
The reason we were given for the fact their research was kept a secret from the rest of the world is that they weren't allowed to experiment on humans. Taboo! Can't have that! Can't even publish! Because, somehow, we've skipped animal testing altogether.
It's just a hilariously shoddy excuse from writers who didn't bother to think about it for more than five seconds. Even arguing that the Powers That Be decided to bury the whole thing right away in order to avoid potential societal chaos would have made a bit more sense than that (and still would have been hard to swallow).
Don Draper's Hat
Member
People cried when watching the finale?
Am I dead inside?
Am I dead inside?
I have never cried at a single scene in the show so I'm always a little surprised to hear people crying at everything.
tbh i cry everytime they play the "November" theme
Human Trashcan
Banned
The final 2 'graphs of this review sum it up so perfectly http://www.vulture.com/2017/06/the-leftovers-series-finale-recap-the-book-of-nora.html
I'm glad you asked, my hat. You might be! But then again, I cry at great TV/movies all the time. Most episodes of this show have at least one eye-watering moment for me. This episode had a lot. I was already crying during Matt and Nora's goodbye.
I'm glad you asked, my hat. You might be! But then again, I cry at great TV/movies all the time. Most episodes of this show have at least one eye-watering moment for me. This episode had a lot. I was already crying during Matt and Nora's goodbye.
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
I cried like three weeks in a row with this
Raven117
Gold Member
I thought the ending was great.
The whole point of the show was examining how people deal with loss and grief...and the stories we tell ourselves to move past it.
I really enjoyed the series. Once you accept the premise that it is essentially an arthouse type post-modernism / impressionism metaphor heavy commentary on grief, loss, hope, purpose, you can just sit back and enjoy it and quite focusing on "figuring it out" like we have been conditioned to in most other TV series.
I enjoyed the freedom in that...as not all scenes had to "make sense."
The acting....man...Carrie Coon had me at season 1 with her vicious vulnerability and search for truth. (Everyone else too... Justin Theroux (sp) did a spectacular job) as well as the guy who played Matt).
The whole point of the show was examining how people deal with loss and grief...and the stories we tell ourselves to move past it.
I really enjoyed the series. Once you accept the premise that it is essentially an arthouse type post-modernism / impressionism metaphor heavy commentary on grief, loss, hope, purpose, you can just sit back and enjoy it and quite focusing on "figuring it out" like we have been conditioned to in most other TV series.
I enjoyed the freedom in that...as not all scenes had to "make sense."
Heart-wrenchingly accurate when saying goodbye to a loved family member at the end . . .with just the right amount of sibling"ness" about it.
The acting....man...Carrie Coon had me at season 1 with her vicious vulnerability and search for truth. (Everyone else too... Justin Theroux (sp) did a spectacular job) as well as the guy who played Matt).
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
I also think people are getting a bit hung up on the "Kevin believes her, doesn't matter if we do"
I don't think Kevin actually cares if the story is true or not. "You're here" implies just that, Nora is here, in front of him. That's all Kevin really cares about, that's what he's been searching for.
Kevin nuked his afterlife in order to remove his ability to separate from humanity and be vulnerable. "Take this fucking thing out of me". That was his character ark ending, he learned his lesson.
Nora going to the other side, seeing her family and failing to reach out to them, or simply backing out last minute, are the same end results. She came back, feeling most likely the same level of heavy guilt. She wanted to be left alone in the middle of nowhere and forgotten, because that's what she felt she deserved for being such a coward.
At least that's how I read the final episode after reading some impressions and breakdowns of people who are smarter than me. In the end, it took nearly two decades of searching, but Nora had her ark complete and Kevin gave her a chance of moving on and opening up, the same thing Kevin went through when he literally ripped his heart out in the afterlife.
I think I need to re-watch this season, I think it would be worth it just to go over everything again.
I don't think Kevin actually cares if the story is true or not. "You're here" implies just that, Nora is here, in front of him. That's all Kevin really cares about, that's what he's been searching for.
Kevin nuked his afterlife in order to remove his ability to separate from humanity and be vulnerable. "Take this fucking thing out of me". That was his character ark ending, he learned his lesson.
Nora going to the other side, seeing her family and failing to reach out to them, or simply backing out last minute, are the same end results. She came back, feeling most likely the same level of heavy guilt. She wanted to be left alone in the middle of nowhere and forgotten, because that's what she felt she deserved for being such a coward.
At least that's how I read the final episode after reading some impressions and breakdowns of people who are smarter than me. In the end, it took nearly two decades of searching, but Nora had her ark complete and Kevin gave her a chance of moving on and opening up, the same thing Kevin went through when he literally ripped his heart out in the afterlife.
I think I need to re-watch this season, I think it would be worth it just to go over everything again.
I agree.
Which is why the endless mysteries that Lindelof cynically added to the show without any intention of giving them meaning are so grating.
David Incorporated Esq.
Member
The main character of the show was immune to dying.
Why?
Oh I dunno, not important.
Man, fuck. I still liked it but it just feels insulting adding something so monumentally drastic and supernatural then saying "no big deal don't worry about it."
I love how this is the de facto defense.
Human Trashcan
Banned
I think you're ascribing a level of cynicism that really isn't there. Nor were there really that many mysteries, all told. I never felt that way, anyway. Everything that happened on this show was a vehicle to get at these raw issues of grief, loss, denial, and acceptance. It's larger than life, definitely. But it was from the premise. Once it became clear that the show was not about the Departure, but about the leftovers (I mean it's right there...) I think it's pretty clear what the show is from there. But hey, some things work for you, others don't. I'm struggling with aspects of the new Twin Peaks, for example.
Raven117
Gold Member
I mean, you can interpret all of it in different ways. But on its face...i don't disagree to an extent.
I guess I just let the show take me for a ride...and I was happy with that.
KraftyKrankins
Member
His expression man. :/ :'(
Miles Quaritch
Member
Hmm, it was an okay series finale but I feel turning the last episode into a love story probably wasn't the right decision.
I get it, it's easier to do and you can ignore all the mysteries you've spent three seasons building it and it also helps to create some easy emotional beats, but the decision feels hollow to me and it's not something I particularly liked.
The scene where Nora is climbing up the hill with the music playing. Why? What was emotional about that scene? I feel like I'm missing something but I've watched the scene and the lead up a few times now and I still can't find the emotional hook.
I think I'm done with Lindelof after this. He keeps doing this shit where he makes shows with somewhat compelling mysteries but then decides not to answer them because it's better that way. It's ridiculous that he can say that with a straight face after knowing he used those mysteries to hook people. If he wants to tell stories about romance and other shit, just do it, why dress them up in mysteries he keeps adding to, up to the series finale, and then goes LOL, it's about the journey, not the destination.
Cunt.
I get it, it's easier to do and you can ignore all the mysteries you've spent three seasons building it and it also helps to create some easy emotional beats, but the decision feels hollow to me and it's not something I particularly liked.
The scene where Nora is climbing up the hill with the music playing. Why? What was emotional about that scene? I feel like I'm missing something but I've watched the scene and the lead up a few times now and I still can't find the emotional hook.
I think I'm done with Lindelof after this. He keeps doing this shit where he makes shows with somewhat compelling mysteries but then decides not to answer them because it's better that way. It's ridiculous that he can say that with a straight face after knowing he used those mysteries to hook people. If he wants to tell stories about romance and other shit, just do it, why dress them up in mysteries he keeps adding to, up to the series finale, and then goes LOL, it's about the journey, not the destination.
Cunt.
FantasticMrFoxdie
Mumber
It's actually pretty funny seeing people ask, demand answers here.
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
It represented the work involved to accept your own sin, but she never gave up. I lost it when she put the beads on herself.
blame space
Banned
Yeah that killed me
I love the wedding stuff because, in the moment, it was really sweet but then you see the outcome and it just seems stupid. The "50 mile range" line about the doves as well.
I love the wedding stuff because, in the moment, it was really sweet but then you see the outcome and it just seems stupid. The "50 mile range" line about the doves as well.
TheMissingLink
Member
Perfect ending, wonderful episode.
"Some say once you're gone you're gone forever,
And some say you're gonna come back"
"Some say once you're gone you're gone forever,
And some say you're gonna come back"
FantasticMrFoxdie
Mumber
Human Trashcan
Banned
What mysteries did he spend 3 seasons building up? Legit curious because I can't think of anything.
I'm kinda gobsmacked that people can watch this show for 2 seasons and 7 episodes and still think "Oh the last episode is gonna have all the answers!" (to what, I wouldn't even know)
digitalrelic
Banned
I mean, I loved the finale but to pretend that there were no answers left unresolved is just silly.
What caused the departure?
What caused Kevin to become immortal?
Was the afterlife Kevin was accessing real?
Why did 0 of the 9,261 people in Jarden disappear?
How & why did Mary miraculously wake up in Miracle?
etc.. etc..
Again, I loved the show, and I personally didn't desire any of those answers (other than Kevin's immortality), but I can certainly understand how this style of writing wouldn't work for some people.
Fluffhead14
Member
I don't know if it takes a certain type of person to be okay with how the show presented itself, but it kinda seems it.
like... i get why someone might be perplexed as to why kevin kept coming back to life. i'd argue that in a show about 2% of the world's population disappearing out of thin air, you might have to buy in to some fantastical elements. nevertheless, i get that this specifically wasn't answered and that might rub some people the wrong way. i don't know if there's an answer other than "that's just how things are" that could explain it in any detail that those that care to know would find satisfying. you guys watched "across the sea" on LOST, right? is finding out the center of the island is a yellow light more satisfying than it just being a mysterious island?
to me, i'm totally fine with how this show was presented because what that place represented to kevin was more important to me than coming up with how he got there. having some shaman-like figure say "drink this and battle patti in another world to get rid of her" is all i need if doing so makes sense for what we know about kevin at that point.
and maybe that doesn't make sense to some of you, which i get, i suppose.
like... i get why someone might be perplexed as to why kevin kept coming back to life. i'd argue that in a show about 2% of the world's population disappearing out of thin air, you might have to buy in to some fantastical elements. nevertheless, i get that this specifically wasn't answered and that might rub some people the wrong way. i don't know if there's an answer other than "that's just how things are" that could explain it in any detail that those that care to know would find satisfying. you guys watched "across the sea" on LOST, right? is finding out the center of the island is a yellow light more satisfying than it just being a mysterious island?
to me, i'm totally fine with how this show was presented because what that place represented to kevin was more important to me than coming up with how he got there. having some shaman-like figure say "drink this and battle patti in another world to get rid of her" is all i need if doing so makes sense for what we know about kevin at that point.
and maybe that doesn't make sense to some of you, which i get, i suppose.
blame space
Banned
Well-said fluffhead14, I completely agree.
I loved the finale.
I felt like they had wrapped up things with most of the cast before going into this. Both Matt and Laurie wrapped up their stories in their episodes and Kevin Sr. wrapped up his story at the end of last weeks. Now John Murphy didn't have an episode (which I still wish we got) but he got his closure with Evie after Kevin said he sent his message.
So going into the finale all I wanted to know was what was up with old Nora and whether or not Nora reunites with Kevin. And I got exactly that. I loved how small-scale and intimate the finale was.
Man I'm gonna miss this show but I'm glad it ended as well as it did. Definitely one of my all-time favorites.
I felt like they had wrapped up things with most of the cast before going into this. Both Matt and Laurie wrapped up their stories in their episodes and Kevin Sr. wrapped up his story at the end of last weeks. Now John Murphy didn't have an episode (which I still wish we got) but he got his closure with Evie after Kevin said he sent his message.
So going into the finale all I wanted to know was what was up with old Nora and whether or not Nora reunites with Kevin. And I got exactly that. I loved how small-scale and intimate the finale was.
Man I'm gonna miss this show but I'm glad it ended as well as it did. Definitely one of my all-time favorites.
How about not introducing all that stuff in the first place?
Discotheque
Banned
I don't even really care that much that they didn't show any finite details about the departure tbh
I'm still really bummed out that they all of a sudden try to present this Kevin/Nora relationship as being so paramount to the series. That shit was never particularly strong. I certainly wasn't pulling for them to get back together or anything lol so that entire exchange did nothing for me.
Bummed out about how this show ended considering how much I enjoyed the show up to this point.
I'm still really bummed out that they all of a sudden try to present this Kevin/Nora relationship as being so paramount to the series. That shit was never particularly strong. I certainly wasn't pulling for them to get back together or anything lol so that entire exchange did nothing for me.
Bummed out about how this show ended considering how much I enjoyed the show up to this point.
Fluffhead14
Member
perfect example of my what i'm talking about. i'm not statistician, but i'd bet it's not outside the realm of possibilities that if this happened at random, there may be a place on earth no one departed from.
said place would likely be deified, like it was in the show. it created an interesting setting for the themes of the show to be played out on.
the explanation makes sense to me. it's also possible it held some sort of fantastical properties that could not be explained. i'm also on board with that. i don't think the show not coming down definitively on either side is lazy though.
Fluffhead14
Member
how about not creating a show or writing a book where 2% of the world disappears anyway?
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
y'all are family
twin bros last week wrecked me because it such a perfect illustration of Kevin's inner shit. Leftovers at its best finds a fantastical or adventure expression/exploration of something deeply personal. Every week they found a new and amazing way to do that this season
I'd rather have some things left unexplained than have something like "he was bitten by radioactive spider", "lightning bolt spilled chemicals on him" or "she breaths through her skin". And if the characters in the show don't know the answers, why should we. They are equally perplexed by it all. That confusion and uncertainty brings some of the best moments in the show.
Dreams-Visions
Member
I agree that the Kevin/Nora relationship never felt that strong. In fact it always felt more out of convenience or temporary necessity than love, which is why 20 years of searching for her fell kinda flat for me too. I never saw that grade of love for her coming from Kevin. I still felt the ending, but not as strongly.
Also, I really need help understanding the purpose of the afterlife. The assassin/president dynamic. The fact that people who were thought to be departed (like that woman's 5 kids) were actually there (thus dead, yes?). What does him killing his ability to go to the afterlife accomplishes? Why was his reflection significant? Why do some posters think the machine let Nora experience Kevin's afterlife? What happened to "the afterlife" for everyone else after Kevin nuked it? I had a hard time following any insight would be appreciated.
Also, I really need help understanding the purpose of the afterlife. The assassin/president dynamic. The fact that people who were thought to be departed (like that woman's 5 kids) were actually there (thus dead, yes?). What does him killing his ability to go to the afterlife accomplishes? Why was his reflection significant? Why do some posters think the machine let Nora experience Kevin's afterlife? What happened to "the afterlife" for everyone else after Kevin nuked it? I had a hard time following any insight would be appreciated.
Amazing show. My girlfriend and I only started watching back in April. By May we had blasted through S2 and we were able to watch our first (and last) live episode last night after just getting caught up in time. The Leftovers probably cracks my Top 5 all-time. Season 2 in particular is one of the finest pieces of television I've ever had the pleasure to witness. Just flawless. Justin Thereoux and Carrie Coon deserve all the awards, recognition, and future success in the world. I can't recall the last show that could thrill me, make me cry, make me howl with laughter, and destroy me on an emotional level so consistently.
Yup. I was just saying to my wife as well that it is my top 5.
Raven117
Gold Member
Because a fantastical backdrop allows for more of an examination into what grief, loss...etc. can mean to different people. Put people in extreme situations get extreme results kind of thing.