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The Making of Alien Vs Predator - Atari Jaguar

Freedom Gate Co.

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Yes, but it was big enough to stop people from getting Jaguar.
No it wasn't. Magazines were still covering it because it wasn't clear how bad the messed up the launch by that time. Or how they didn't have enough money to produce a large quantity of consoles.

Jaguar was in a position any company would have killed for, they are the reason why they messed up not anyone else.
 

molasar

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No it wasn't. Magazines were still covering it because it wasn't clear how bad the messed up the launch by that time. Or how they didn't have enough money to produce a large quantity of consoles.

Jaguar was in a position any company would have killed for, they are the reason why they messed up not anyone else.
It is well known that they messed up.
They did not have anything to match against games like Donkey Kong Country, Earthworm Jim, Mortal Kombat 2, Doom 2 for example in 1994.

So what was Jaguar's appeal besides AvP and perhaps Doom in your opinion?
 
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Romulus

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This thread got me thinking, how many sales did the Jaguar have?

I was guessing around 1.5 million, which is a massive failure for a console meant for the masses, but no...

It sold 125,000 units lmao

That's absolutely awful. I can't believe I was one of the few. It was worth it.

So that makes me wonder, how many units did AvP sell? 40k?
 
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Freedom Gate Co.

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It is well known that they messed up.
They did not have anything to match against games like Donkey Kong Country, Earthworm Jim, Mortal Kombat 2, Doom 2 for example in 1994.
Yes they did, the biggest complaint about the Jaguar at launch was that there was no stock, not that people weren't wanting to buy them. That happened later. Don't forget MK3 was originally going to launch on the system before the port was cancelled.

This thread got me thinking, how many sales did the Jaguar have?

I was guessing around 1.5 million, which is a massive failure for a console meant for the masses, but no...
LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL :messenger_tears_of_joy: :messenger_tears_of_joy: :messenger_tears_of_joy: :messenger_tears_of_joy: :messenger_tears_of_joy:

Jaguar "shipped" 250k units and had over 100k in inventory or something similar, so who knows how much it actually sold.

Atari couldn't even produce 100,000 units for launch! They was flat broke!

AVP sold around 80,000 by the time they went bankrupt. This makes me believe that Atari only sold 150,000 Jaguars to consumers directly best case scenario.

In comparison the 3DO sold over 2 million and Gex allegedly sold 1 million copies and games like SFII Turbo sold 250,000.

The only consoles that compare to the Jaguars low sales are the CD32 which sold 100,000 units and the 32X, which sold 400,000 units.
 

ultrazilla

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Still the best Aliens vs. Predator video game. Come at me bros! :messenger_tears_of_joy:
Played the hell out of this when I had my Jaguar. What was the framerate btw? Anyone know?
Pretty sure it was between 15-20fps. Was still awesome!
 
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molasar

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Yes they did, the biggest complaint about the Jaguar at launch was that there was no stock, not that people weren't wanting to buy them. That happened later.
Lucky me, still I have managed to get one with AvP in Europe but I can understand that a shortage before Christmas is a huge blow.

Don't forget MK3 was originally going to launch on the system before the port was cancelled.
I do not think it would help much as it could take another year to happen.
 

molasar

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Still the best Aliens vs. Predator video game. Come at me bros! :messenger_tears_of_joy:
Played the hell out of this when I had my Jaguar. What was the framerate btw? Anyone know?
Pretty sure it was between 15-20fps. Was still awesome!
I am coming at you bro.

Who cares about low framerate if it does not break a gameplay experience. It is my best first person perspective AvP game too.
 
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Freedom Gate Co.

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Lucky me, still I have managed to get one with AvP in Europe but I can understand that a shortage before Christmas is a huge blow.



I do not think it would help much as it could take another year to happen.
It would have made a difference if they could produce enough cartridges. Atari lost a lot potential releases after the first year because of that.
 

molasar

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It would have made a difference if they could produce enough cartridges. Atari lost a lot potential releases after the first year because of that.
Why produce cartridges if there is no games for them, but even with its MK3 port (it would require a new controller for owners of the standard one ) by the end of 1995 Jaguar would be still competing with 16-bit consoles and their games like Killer Instinct, MK3, Weaponlord, Earthworm Jim 2, Donkey Kong Country 2 or Yoshi's Island.
 

Freedom Gate Co.

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Why produce cartridges if there is no games for them, but even with its MK3 port (it would require a new controller for owners of the standard one ) by the end of 1995 Jaguar would be still competing with 16-bit consoles and their games like Killer Instinct, MK3, Weaponlord, Earthworm Jim 2, Donkey Kong Country 2 or Yoshi's Island.
MK3 is a game what??

I'm not sure about your game list either, you can't use hindsight arguments when talking about the time period. For all anyone knew Kasumi Ninja was better than Killer Instinct, and games like AVP, Tempest, and Cybermorph were well beyond what the SNES could produce, and were.

In hindsight you could say half of the Jaguars first year of games weren't very good and the SNES had a lot of quality games that came period in 1995, but back then that was not what people were thinking. People weren't saying that they wouldn't buy a Jaguar because Earthworm Jim 2 came out, they said they wouldn't buy a Jaguar because they didn't find one or ever heard of it. Or they saw Need for Speed on the 3DO.
 

molasar

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MK3 is a game what??

I'm not sure about your game list either, you can't use hindsight arguments when talking about the time period. For all anyone knew Kasumi Ninja was better than Killer Instinct, and games like AVP, Tempest, and Cybermorph were well beyond what the SNES could produce, and were.

In hindsight you could say half of the Jaguars first year of games weren't very good and the SNES had a lot of quality games that came period in 1995, but back then that was not what people were thinking. People weren't saying that they wouldn't buy a Jaguar because Earthworm Jim 2 came out, they said they wouldn't buy a Jaguar because they didn't find one or ever heard of it. Or they saw Need for Speed on the 3DO.
I meant if MK3 was still coming it would not change much.

You must be kidding in your statement that Kasumi Ninja was better than SNES' Killer Instinct. It is the first time in my life I have read something like this. Even Ultra Vortek was not.

If you read my previous post then you know that I adore AvP but I would never get Jaguar for Tempest and Cybermorph or choose them over Mortal Kombat 2 and Donkey Kong Country if they were on SNES.

Regarding 3DO it did not have anything better than Jaguar's AvP IMO but I can see that people were fooled by smoke and mirrors of FMV segments in CD-ROM games at that time.

Anyway by the end of 1995 it was already too late.
 
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RAIDEN1

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Let alone competition from Sony circa December 1994 when the PSX released in Japan, the Jaguar would have also fallen flat on its face, when the N64 came out....ever a chance of a Super Mario 64 killer coming out on the Jag? Hell no!
 

Romulus

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Jaguar "shipped" 250k units and had over 100k in inventory or something similar, so who knows how much it actually sold.

Atari couldn't even produce 100,000 units for launch! They was flat broke!

AVP sold around 80,000 by the time they went bankrupt. This makes me believe that Atari only sold 150,000 Jaguars to consumers directly best case scenario.

In comparison the 3DO sold over 2 million and Gex allegedly sold 1 million copies and games like SFII Turbo sold 250,000.

The only consoles that compare to the Jaguars low sales are the CD32 which sold 100,000 units and the 32X, which sold 400,000 units.
I remember it getting a decent amounts of ads on TV too, which compared to the other ultra low sellers, I don't remember anything. The "Do the Math" stuff was popular, just didn't work.
 

RAIDEN1

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I remember it getting a decent amounts of ads on TV too, which compared to the other ultra low sellers, I don't remember anything. The "Do the Math" stuff was popular, just didn't work.
It was doomed to fail in the state it came out in from day one...and did nothing for Atari's reputation...
 

Freedom Gate Co.

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I remember it getting a decent amounts of ads on TV too, which compared to the other ultra low sellers, I don't remember anything. The "Do the Math" stuff was popular, just didn't work.
The do the math stuff did work, many people in this thread are failing to realize that the issue with the Jaguar was Atari didn't have enough money to produce many units. The biggest issue with the Jaguar within the first few months of it's shelf-life was that no one could find one, or that there weren't any games in stock.

The Jaguar was not at every retailer, I would go as far as to say that the Jaguar wasn't even in 10% of the retailers the Saturn was in and that was a flop in North America. You were lucky if you had 3 stores close-by that carried one. I only had two nearby, and the second one eventually stopped carrying the console and only carried games.

Let alone competition from Sony circa December 1994 when the PSX released in Japan, the Jaguar would have also fallen flat on its face, when the N64 came out....ever a chance of a Super Mario 64 killer coming out on the Jag? Hell no!
The PSX releasing in Japan isn't competition for the Jaguar in a completely different country that it wasn't released in yet, lol.

I meant if MK3 was still coming it would not change much.
If they had the budget to mass produced MK3 they would have had the money to mass produce other games as well so yes it would have made a difference.

You must be kidding in your statement that Kasumi Ninja was better than SNES' Killer Instinct. It is the first time in my life I have read something like this. Even Ultra Vortek was not.
You're once again looking at the mid 90's from todays perspective instead of from back in the mid 90's. Kasumi Ninja was considered a great looking fun game, SNES Killer Instinct was considered a watered down version of the arcade game. I did not say I believed it was better, but many consumers did. Sure, as the reviews came out it became clear Kasumi Ninja had bad gameplay but it's one of the best selling Jaguar titles for a reason. Back then hype for games drove sales, that's why many crappy games sold well as there wasn't as much access to previews and reviews as there are now in 2020.

If you read my previous post then you know that I adore AvP but I would never get Jaguar for Tempest and Cybermorph or choose them over Mortal Kombat 2 and Donkey Kong Country if they were on SNES.
But many people did in back in 1994. You continue to apply your views of today while not looking back at views of people in 1994 and that doesn't work.

Regarding 3DO it did not have anything better than Jaguar's AvP IMO but I can see that people were fooled by smoke and mirrors of FMV segments in CD-ROM games at that time.
I'm no expert on the 3DO, but people weren't fooled by smoke and mirrors of FMV segments, that seems more like a poor defense for the Jaguar more than anything.

Anyway by the end of 1995 it was already too late.
Not if Atari was prepared ahead of time and launched properly. They were in the perfect position to win and take names and some company executives were actually pretty scared. One of those was Sega obviously, 3DO had thought they were screwed as well after the price was revealed.
 

Freedom Gate Co.

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Thanks for posting. AvP is the reason to own a Jaguar. I’m shocked it was never ported
Rebellion had the publishing rights to the game and still do. It might take some work but It's unfortunate that Rebellion won't port the game, especially since it's important to the companies history. It was their second game ever made and the first 3D game they made period and it turned out very well.
 
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molasar

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If they had the budget to mass produced MK3 they would have had the money to mass produce other games as well so yes it would have made a difference.
This is only your speculation. You can have all the money in the world but it does not mean you can produce killer aps. And I do not remember MK3 being considered as a system seller.

You're once again looking at the mid 90's from todays perspective instead of from back in the mid 90's. Kasumi Ninja was considered a great looking fun game, SNES Killer Instinct was considered a watered down version of the arcade game. I did not say I believed it was better, but many consumers did. Sure, as the reviews came out it became clear Kasumi Ninja had bad gameplay but it's one of the best selling Jaguar titles for a reason. Back then hype for games drove sales, that's why many crappy games sold well as there wasn't as much access to previews and reviews as there are now in 2020.
You implicate here. Oh, how wrong you are again. I lived in 90s, I owned SNES, Mega Drive, Jaguar, PS1, Saturn, N64, Dreamcast consoles and had access to other gaming devices (arcades included) and games. So no, I do not look at it from today's perspective. I had my own copy of Kasumi Ninja (with a headband) in early 1995 and it did not impress me (and gamers I knew) on the same level like SNES' MK2 did. Yes, graphically it looked better but it was expected from a more powerful device but generally it was a crappy MK clone for us back then. If it was the only clone of MK available on the system until Ultra Vortek came out, so no wonder it sold well. Even I got it.

Regarding SNES' Killer Instinct, it was not considered a watered down version of the arcade game. It just was watered down as no one with their right mind could expect 100% port but it was made right. There was more fun with it than with MK3 ports, Kasumi Ninja and Ultra Vortek. And it was not only my opinion about it back then.

Also yes, I am aware of it that hype drove sales as I was a victim of it in many cases as well. Fooled many times by previews and reviews in magazines until I learned.

Anyway I like how you try teaching someone, who lived back then and experience all of these stuff, about how it was back then and how it is now.

But many people did in back in 1994. You continue to apply your views of today while not looking back at views of people in 1994 and that doesn't work.
I was (and gamers I knew) a part of people back in 1994 and I do not apply my views of today here. Do not speculate.

I'm no expert on the 3DO, but people weren't fooled by smoke and mirrors of FMV segments, that seems more like a poor defense for the Jaguar more than anything.
Neither am I as it was not appealing to me in any way. So you believe that people were tech aficionados and they could not be fooled by FMV? This is not how I remember those times. And I do not try to defend Jaguar this way.

Not if Atari was prepared ahead of time and launched properly. They were in the perfect position to win and take names and some company executives were actually pretty scared. One of those was Sega obviously, 3DO had thought they were screwed as well after the price was revealed.
It is all about ifs and speculations. They can be applied to everything.

To not create hard feelings between us, I would leave it as we have different opinions over this stuff for various reasons.
 
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Freedom Gate Co.

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This is only your speculation. You can have all the money in the world but it does not mean you can produce killer aps. And I do not remember MK3 being considered as a system seller.
That wasn't your original argument, you're combining different points together and are confusing yourself.

You implicate here. Oh, how wrong you are again. I lived in 90s, I owned SNES, Mega Drive, Jaguar, PS1, Saturn, N64, Dreamcast consoles and had access to other gaming devices (arcades included) and games. So no, I do not look at it from today's perspective. I had my own copy of Kasumi Ninja (with a headband) in early 1995 and it did not impress me (and gamers I knew) on the same level like SNES' MK2 did. Yes, graphically it looked better but it was expected from a more powerful device but generally it was a crappy MK clone for us back then. If it was the only clone of MK available on the system until Ultra Vortek came out, so no wonder it sold well. Even I got it.
You're personal opinions don't change Kasumis Ninja coverage and sales numbers. Yes, it eventually was clear it wasn't very good, that didn't stop people from acting like it was originally. Many people liked the game and it was covered as a cool game with great graphics.

This is very similar to people imagining the N64 was a huge consoles worldwide when it only sold great in one location despite the so called game changing software.

I was (and gamers I knew) a part of people back in 1994 and I do not apply my views of today here. Do not speculate.
There is no speculation, you're just wrong, you're trying to force a niche anecdote on factual coverage, sales numbers, and hype in the mid 90's. It's like you saying because you found a Jaguar, they were sold everywhere, that's not how this works.

Neither am I as it was not appealing to me in any way. So you believe that people were tech aficionados and they could not be fooled by FMV? This is not how I remember those times. And I do not try to defend Jaguar this way.
You're memory is broken, as the 3DO wasn't an FMV machine and had 3D graphics that rivaled the first few years of PS1 games, so to act like the 3DO was an FMV machine that only sold because it fooled people and wasn't a power house for the time is literally bullshit. It also had hundred of games while the Jaguar had what? Less than 80 official releases?
 

Afro Republican

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Regarding 3DO it did not have anything better than Jaguar's AvP IMO but I can see that people were fooled by smoke and mirrors of FMV segments in CD-ROM games at that time.
You should probably not talk about a console you know nothing about.

Let me know when the Jaguar can run a game like Need For Speed or StarFighter.

AvP runs at like 5fps and most of the assets are in 2D.
 

molasar

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That wasn't your original argument, you're combining different points together and are confusing yourself.
I still think that MK3 would not help much Jaguar's sales. The game itself did not deliver like MK2 did and already had a competitor in a form of Killer Instinct.
And no, I am not confusing myself and your eristics won't work on me.

You're personal opinions don't change Kasumis Ninja coverage and sales numbers. Yes, it eventually was clear it wasn't very good, that didn't stop people from acting like it was originally. Many people liked the game and it was covered as a cool game with great graphics.
I repeat, I was fooled by coverage and got the game too, so were many people. And it was the only MK clone available on Jaguar when it was released.
Where did you get that information from that many people liked the game? What was their reasoning? I myself liked its graphics, some finishers, main menu and character selection music but it does not mean that I liked the game generally. Perhaps many people liked the game because there was no other fighting game to like on their Jaguar.

There is no speculation, you're just wrong, you're trying to force a niche anecdote on factual coverage, sales numbers, and hype in the mid 90's. It's like you saying because you found a Jaguar, they were sold everywhere, that's not how this works.
LOL, you think that I believe that Jaguar was available everywhere and I try to force an anecdote. Let me tell you something. I am from a country where Jaguar had to be imported by small sellers. Also its media coverage was poor. No TV adverts, only some mentions in magazines. So I was forced to read foreign magazines. Like I wrote before your eristics won't work.

You're memory is broken, as the 3DO wasn't an FMV machine and had 3D graphics that rivaled the first few years of PS1 games, so to act like the 3DO was an FMV machine that only sold because it fooled people and wasn't a power house for the time is literally bullshit. It also had hundred of games while the Jaguar had what? Less than 80 official releases?
If my memory is broken and yours is so pristine then explain me how it did not have more appealing games than SNES? 3DO is an FMV machine (a hype based on this was created back in the 90s) and its killer apps were not that special in comparison to Jaguar's AvP. Also it was expensive. So what 3DO's 3D graphics games rivaled the first few years of PS1 games? Again your eristics won't work.
 

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I like your collection but I disagree with this statement.

Nintendo didn't have anything to show and the Ultra 64 was already delayed once, but I can still see how the magazine and the arcade advertisements for it generated some hype for it. The PS1 hype however, didn't build up hype in magazines until spring 1995, and Sega had overshadowed the Saturn themselves with the 32X, which was a weaker machine than the Jaguar.
Boom! :messenger_winking_tongue:

Sega Saturn cover story in the March 1994 issue of Diehard Gamefan, ironically with the launch/review cover story of Tempest 2000. Both the PlayStation and Saturn launched in Japan in 1994 and the video game media in other countries covered those launches and the games being made on those systems throughout 1994.
 

molasar

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You should probably not talk about a console you know nothing about.

Let me know when the Jaguar can run a game like Need For Speed or StarFighter.

AvP runs at like 5fps and most of the assets are in 2D.
All I know that it did not have appealing apps for me.

Who cares if something runs games not appealing to them.

Let me know how I can boot AvP on 3DO? Oh, it is called Space Hulk: Vengeance of the Blood Angels released a year later but not so good.

Also I do not remember people complaining how did AvP run back then. Its frame rate did not break gameplay.
 
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Afro Republican

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All I know that it did not have appealing apps for me.

Who cares if something runs games not appealing to them.

Let me know how I can boot AvP on 3DO? Oh, it is called Space Hulk: Vengeance of the Blood Angels released a year later but not so good.

Also I do not remember people complaining how did AvP run back then. Its frame rate did not break gameplay.
You been arguing with Dr.bluray for many posts about graphics, lack of games releasing on the jaguar, and their quality, but now you're acting like you've only been arguing about appeal?

How is Space Hulk anything like AVP? It's a FPS tactical strategy game. AVP is mostly a standard shoot bang FPS. 3DO does have FPS games like that but the fact you talk of Space Hulk Like it's a shoot bang fps proves you are arguing in bad faith.

Try to play Space Hulk like AVP, won't even get to the back hallway. No wonder it doesnt appeal to you, it's a completely different game. Even the easier Saturn version will punish you if you play it like a shoot bang after the first 10 minutes but at least that wouldn't have been as ridiculous of a comparison. You have to switch between units and make sure they don't die, losing two soldiers is almost always a game over because it makes it near impossible to complete the mission.

Also where are the FMV sequences literred throughout Space Hulk as you said?

It's like comparing Doom to Swat4 what in the hell... You guys come up with some crazy stuff I tell ya.

Also apps? What is this a smartphone thread?
 
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I meant if MK3 was still coming it would not change much.

You must be kidding in your statement that Kasumi Ninja was better than SNES' Killer Instinct. It is the first time in my life I have read something like this. Even Ultra Vortek was not.

If you read my previous post then you know that I adore AvP but I would never get Jaguar for Tempest and Cybermorph or choose them over Mortal Kombat 2 and Donkey Kong Country if they were on SNES.

Regarding 3DO it did not have anything better than Jaguar's AvP IMO but I can see that people were fooled by smoke and mirrors of FMV segments in CD-ROM games at that time.

Anyway by the end of 1995 it was already too late.
Very questionable. I think many would say games like Need For Speed, Space Hulk, Wing Commander etc. are at least better playing than AvP in terms of framerate and control fluidity. A hefty chunk would even claim they're just better-made games, too.

At the very least, 3DO, having many more games than Jaguar, that gave it a higher probability of having more quality games as well, statistically speaking. That doesn't mean Jaguar doesn't have some great titles though, even by '95. AvP, Tempest 2000, the Iron Soldier games, Super Burnout and SkyHammer (the last two weren't commercial releases IIRC) are arguably the platform's best games. But you can probably 2-3x the size of that list of comparable games on 3DO.

Again, just having multiples more games gives it that statistical edge and it wouldn't be too hard to point to a game up there better than AvP, even if just by technical reasons (which would still count).
 

RAIDEN1

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End of the day the 3DO was a very capable machine for its time in 1993....certainly compared to the likes of the CD32 etc...and the jaguar for all its "64-bit power" was a system with a poorly thought out architecture, that would have struggled to replicate a Ridge Racer/Daytona let alone a Mario 64/Wave-Race...Atari were in no position to take on the might of Sony let alone Sega being in a mess themselves with the Saturn...the jag needed to be bullet proof console in the sense that it was ready to take on the 64 bit generation..and not be hampered by bugs....
 

Romulus

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End of the day the 3DO was a very capable machine for its time in 1993....certainly compared to the likes of the CD32 etc...and the jaguar for all its "64-bit power" was a system with a poorly thought out architecture, that would have struggled to replicate a Ridge Racer/Daytona let alone a Mario 64/Wave-Race...Atari were in no position to take on the might of Sony let alone Sega being in a mess themselves with the Saturn...the jag needed to be bullet proof console in the sense that it was ready to take on the 64 bit generation..and not be hampered by bugs....
Thats difficult to go along with considering the ps1 was released in 1994.
 

molasar

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You been arguing with Dr.bluray for many posts about graphics, lack of games releasing on the jaguar, and their quality, but now you're acting like you've only been arguing about appeal?

How is Space Hulk anything like AVP? It's a FPS tactical strategy game. AVP is mostly a standard shoot bang FPS. 3DO does have FPS games like that but the fact you talk of Space Hulk Like it's a shoot bang fps proves you are arguing in bad faith.

Try to play Space Hulk like AVP, won't even get to the back hallway. No wonder it doesnt appeal to you, it's a completely different game. Even the easier Saturn version will punish you if you play it like a shoot bang after the first 10 minutes but at least that wouldn't have been as ridiculous of a comparison. You have to switch between units and make sure they don't die, losing two soldiers is almost always a game over because it makes it near impossible to complete the mission.

Also where are the FMV sequences literred throughout Space Hulk as you said?

It's like comparing Doom to Swat4 what in the hell... You guys come up with some crazy stuff I tell ya.

Also apps? What is this a smartphone thread?
I do not know Dr.bluray. Are you another guy how tries to use eristics on me?
Read my posts again.
I stated that AvP was the only real killer app (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killer_application) on Jaguar and MK3 would not help much. Nobody is acting. Something must be appealing somehow to be sold.

I do not like a shoot bang fps games besides Syndicate 2012 (you project here). Try to find my posts in CoD threads. If AvP is a typical FPS (or perhaps read its manual to make sure it is if you have not played it), then please point me to similar games.
I brought Space Hulk here as it is the closest example which can be compared to AvP on 3DO IMO.

You project like I do not know anything about Space Hulk and its origin. LOL

I never said that SH is littered with FMV seguences. Read my posts again. Or you just try using eristics on me? It is just one of the first consoles to use CD-ROMs and have appeal through FMV.

The thing that 3DO did not appeal to me with its games does not make me think of it that it is a bad device. Like I wrote before its all about killer apps. One of my buddies had one and I do not remember being excited over its exclusives. It was more to me like a budget PC.
 

molasar

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Very questionable. I think many would say games like Need For Speed, Space Hulk, Wing Commander etc. are at least better playing than AvP in terms of framerate and control fluidity. A hefty chunk would even claim they're just better-made games, too.

At the very least, 3DO, having many more games than Jaguar, that gave it a higher probability of having more quality games as well, statistically speaking. That doesn't mean Jaguar doesn't have some great titles though, even by '95. AvP, Tempest 2000, the Iron Soldier games, Super Burnout and SkyHammer (the last two weren't commercial releases IIRC) are arguably the platform's best games. But you can probably 2-3x the size of that list of comparable games on 3DO.

Again, just having multiples more games gives it that statistical edge and it wouldn't be too hard to point to a game up there better than AvP, even if just by technical reasons (which would still count).
If you read my post again then you can see that I stated it is my opinion. I was a teenager in 90s and everything regarding video games was just about appeal. 3DO with its games did not attract me, and the most people I knew, like Jaguar with AvP did. Also I still played 16-bit console games until I jumped to PS1/Saturn/N64 eventually.
 
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RAIDEN1

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Thats difficult to go along with considering the ps1 was released in 1994.
Well the PS1 was released at the back-end of 1994, where as the 3DO launched in Oct 1993 -(in the U.S ) things didn't really pick up for the PSX until 1995 in between that time, the 3DO had a decent amount of titles, not a console known to be difficult to develop for, aka the Jag and Saturn, but hampered by being so expensive...so at the time for the best part of 1994....there wasn't anything quite like what the 3DO brought to the table...
 

Romulus

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Well the PS1 was released at the back-end of 1994, where as the 3DO launched in Oct 1993 -(in the U.S ) things didn't really pick up for the PSX until 1995 in between that time, the 3DO had a decent amount of titles, not a console known to be difficult to develop for, aka the Jag and Saturn, but hampered by being so expensive...so at the time for the best part of 1994....there wasn't anything quite like what the 3DO brought to the table...
PS1 and 3DO were 14 months apart and when you look at the very best from each, it was nearly a generational leap.
 

Afro Republican

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I brought Space Hulk here as it is the closest example which can be compared to AvP on 3DO IMO.
There's really nothing else to respond to, you are doing the equivalent of comparing Swat 4 to Doom. There's no further discussion, please play the game or watch a Youtube video at least next time.

Thats difficult to go along with considering the ps1 was released in 1994.
PSX didn't release in NA until 1995, and the first two or three generations of PSX games weren't much better than 3DO titles, in some cases the 3DO had the better version of the game. The biggest advantage the PSX had over the 3DO early on that was commonly seen in games was improved frame rate since the 3DO's clock speed was much slower.

It wasn't until Crash Bandicoot and some other high-profile games in Q4 1996 where the 3DO was simply outclassed and we started seeing a consistent flow of games the 3DO would never be able to run. Many games before then could run on the 3DO, already were on the 3DO, or could run on the 3DO with less textures and polygons.

Very questionable. I think many would say games like Need For Speed, Space Hulk, Wing Commander etc. are at least better playing than AvP in terms of framerate and control fluidity. A hefty chunk would even claim they're just better-made games, too.

At the very least, 3DO, having many more games than Jaguar, that gave it a higher probability of having more quality games as well, statistically speaking. That doesn't mean Jaguar doesn't have some great titles though, even by '95. AvP, Tempest 2000, the Iron Soldier games, Super Burnout and SkyHammer (the last two weren't commercial releases IIRC) are arguably the platform's best games. But you can probably 2-3x the size of that list of comparable games on 3DO.

Again, just having multiples more games gives it that statistical edge and it wouldn't be too hard to point to a game up there better than AvP, even if just by technical reasons (which would still count).
Super Burnout is an official release, I don't think Skyhammer came out until 97 or later

While having more games is a big deal, you also have to realize the 3DO was easier to developer for, didn't treat third parties like shit, and had been built to show off its power much more effectively, which is why many developers that skipped the Jaguar or left it after one game went to the 3DO or were planning on releasing games on the 3DO.

Look at it this way, If the 3DO and Jaguar switched launch prices we would still be seeing 3DO machines coming out with the PS5 and Series X right now.
 

Romulus

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PSX didn't release in NA until 1995, and the first two or three generations of PSX games weren't much better than 3DO titles, in some cases the 3DO had the better version of the game. The biggest advantage the PSX had over the 3DO early on that was commonly seen in games was improved frame rate since the 3DO's clock speed was much slower.
In terms of hardware, it was released in 1994 with no hardware changes to the 1995 NA release. By the end of both consoles looking at all the games, PSX was way ahead. Even consindering that, the PSX wasn't easy to develop for and the 3DO was?
 
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molasar

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There's really nothing else to respond to, you are doing the equivalent of comparing Swat 4 to Doom. There's no further discussion, please play the game or watch a Youtube video at least next time.
You are absolutely right. Doom has more Aliens-esque vibes than Space Hulk. Not really but I do not even compare Alien Trilogy to AvP in terms of gameplay. Anyway I guess you did not have an opportunity to play it in 1994/95 because there was a shortage of it in your area too.
And as you already stated that you do not want to discuss this further but I still wonder what games you played and what gaming systems you had access to in 90s?
 
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Afro Republican

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PS1 and 3DO were 14 months apart and when you look at the very best from each, it was nearly a generational leap.
The best of the PS1 didn't come out 14 months after the 3DO, but 5 or 6 years after the 3DO. It would be more fair to compare 1994-1996 PSX games to 1994-1996 3DO games.

End of the day the 3DO was a very capable machine for its time in 1993....certainly compared to the likes of the CD32 etc...and the jaguar for all its "64-bit power" was a system with a poorly thought out architecture, that would have struggled to replicate a Ridge Racer/Daytona let alone a Mario 64/Wave-Race...Atari were in no position to take on the might of Sony let alone Sega being in a mess themselves with the Saturn...the jag needed to be bullet proof console in the sense that it was ready to take on the 64 bit generation..and not be hampered by bugs....
I would say up until 1996 myself.

Jaguar is often said by some developers to be very powerful, close to the PS1, but theories don't work when there's nothing to show for it. If you don't have anything to show this mysterious secret sauce is it's all imagination..

I posted the Jaguars best graphical achievement earlier and I'll post it again here:





You are right that the Jaguar would struggle to replicate Need for Speed. This is the best it can do and no matter what theories the Atari sites come up with, unless I see a game better than this it's all pointless.

This is a Jaguar CD game released late into its life,

Need for Speed on the 3DO was an early 3DO game that looked like this:



It's clear there's a big difference here, the Jaguar was just too weak and badly made.

It's better than the 32X though.
 

Romulus

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The best of the PS1 didn't come out 14 months after the 3DO, but 5 or 6 years after the 3DO. It would be more fair to compare 1994-1996 PSX games to 1994-1996 3DO games.

It was almost immediately apparent to me PS1 was a massive step up, but it just kept climbing from there. Ridge Racer, Tomb Raider, Wipeout, Destruction Derby, Twisted Metal, Crash, Resident Evil, Alien Trilogy were all 1995-1996 titles.
 

Afro Republican

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In terms of hardware, it was released in 1994 with no hardware changes to the 1995 NA release. By the end of both consoles looking at all the games, PSX was way ahead. Even consindering that, the PSX wasn't easy to develop for and the 3DO was?
PSX was not way ahead of the 3DO in 1994 or 1995. It has some games that took advantage of the different hardware but many games were on, or could easily run on the 3DO.

Even launch Ridge Racer could run on the 3DO, it would just have dips below the 30fps of the PSX version and lose some texture detail.


You are absolutely right. Doom has more Aliens-esque vibes than Space Hulk. Not really but I do not even compare Alien Trilogy to AvP in terms of gameplay. Anyway I guess you did not have an opportunity to play it in 1994/95 because there was a shortage of it in your area too.
And as you already stated that you do not want to discuss this further but I still wonder what games you played and what gaming systems you had access to in 90s?
Now you're playing games, AVP and Space Hulk are not comparable titles. It's looking more like you never played either game at this point.
 

RAIDEN1

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The best of the PS1 didn't come out 14 months after the 3DO, but 5 or 6 years after the 3DO. It would be more fair to compare 1994-1996 PSX games to 1994-1996 3DO games.



I would say up until 1996 myself.

Jaguar is often said by some developers to be very powerful, close to the PS1, but theories don't work when there's nothing to show for it. If you don't have anything to show this mysterious secret sauce is it's all imagination..

I posted the Jaguars best graphical achievement earlier and I'll post it again here:





You are right that the Jaguar would struggle to replicate Need for Speed. This is the best it can do and no matter what theories the Atari sites come up with, unless I see a game better than this it's all pointless.

This is a Jaguar CD game released late into its life,

Need for Speed on the 3DO was an early 3DO game that looked like this:



It's clear there's a big difference here, the Jaguar was just too weak and badly made.

It's better than the 32X though.
Would there really have been a next generation iteration of the 3DO to this day though? Seeing as the M2 was capable piece of kit, but Panasonic had cold feet in going forward with the tech they brought, its debatable even if the 3DO lasted up until 1998, that we would have even got a successor. Ultimately it was in Panasonic's hands....without the 32x being a whole new console in of itself, then yeah its understandable that it wouldn't quite have the horsepower to take on the Jaguar...if Sega crammed more into their mushroom add-on it would have driven the cost up, and made the Saturn project even more pointless, the 32x for all intents and purposes was a knee-jerk reaction by Sega in what they thought was Atari's machine eating up the competition alive...
 

Afro Republican

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It was almost immediately apparent to me PS1 was a massive step up, but it just kept climbing from there. Ridge Racer, Tomb Raider, Wipeout, Destruction Derby, Twisted Metal, Crash, Resident Evil, Alien Trilogy were all 1995-1996 titles.
When you just ignore what I say and list games that prove my point that doesn't help your argument. Crash and TR are Q4 1996 games. Ridge Racer can definitely run on the 3DO with some dips in frame rate and without all those jagged polygons and smeared textures.

Most PSX games before Q4 1996 with some exceptions, were not something that were miles better than the 3DO. This becomes even more apparent when you look at several of the best selling early titles.
 

Romulus

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PSX was not way ahead of the 3DO in 1994 or 1995. It has some games that took advantage of the different hardware but many games were on, or could easily run on the 3DO.
You said 1995-1996 was a fair comparison. But even a launch game like Ridge racer would have ran like shit on 3DO as you said. It not looked better than any 3DO racer out of the gate, it was butter smooth too. I knew right away it was a big step up.
 

Afro Republican

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Would there really have been a next generation iteration of the 3DO to this day though? Seeing as the M2 was capable piece of kit, but Panasonic had cold feet in going forward with the tech they brought, its debatable even if the 3DO lasted up until 1998, that we would have even got a successor. Ultimately it was in Panasonic's hands....without the 32x being a whole new console in of itself, then yeah its understandable that it wouldn't quite have the horsepower to take on the Jaguar...if Sega crammed more into their mushroom add-on it would have driven the cost up, and made the Saturn project even more pointless, the 32x for all intents and purposes was a knee-jerk reaction by Sega in what they thought was Atari's machine eating up the competition alive...
We didn't get a successor because 3DO was playing price wars, they cut the price too low to stay competitive with the PSX and lost too much money with all kinds of promotions like 3 games free if you buy a console, the M2 was going to be a remedy but 3DO dropped that project because they burned their finances and became a console and PC publisher after selling the hardware division to Samsung. Before the 3DO was sold and was still having fire sales to sell well against the PSX, Goldstar had stopped producing 3DO hardware because they lost too much money..

LGE's multimedia division vice president, said several times in recent months that it was becoming increasingly difficult to make any money on the Goldstar unit particularly in the face of new competitors like the Sony PlayStation and Sega Saturn.

In an attempt to deal with the rising competition, last year LGE twice lowered the suggested retail price of its 3DO machine, with little effect on unit sales. The last price cut put the Goldstar machine at an all-time low of $199.

"I'm not at all surprised by LGE's decision to drop its 3DO machine," noted Ray Navarrete, vice president and divisional merchandise manager of Tops Appliance City. "Competition has gone up and I don't think the awareness of 3DO is where it should be in order for it to grow. The consumer awareness just wasn't there."

Industry sources also said last month's sale of the 3DO Co.'s 64-bit M2 technology to Matsushita - "apparently lock, stock and barrel," as one analyst put it - put the capper on any further 3DO involvement on the part of LGE. Existing 3DO machines are 32-bit, as are the PlayStation, the Saturn and Nintendo's portable Virtual Boy.

"Matsushita appears to be solely responsible for the success of the M2 technology from 3DO," noted Walter Miao, vice president of technology for Link Resources, a New York-based market research company. "It's unfortunate LGE-Goldstar has withdrawn, but I don't believe it will be any easier for Panasonic having exclusive use of the 64-bit technology."
If the 3DO sold more initially they wouldn't have had their panic attack then set themselves on fire for almost 2 years, and would have had enough money to launch the M2 to compete with the Dreamcast. which would have still failed due to Segas previous decisions.

What's funny about the fire sales is they actually worked, 3DO sold more consoles in the latter part of it's life than the earlier part. But when you lose money on each console sold, numbers on paper don't matter.
 

molasar

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Now you're playing games, AVP and Space Hulk are not comparable titles. It's looking more like you never played either game at this point.
I am not sure if it is your bad day or something else. Probably you picked the wrong fight which was not even necessary. But we will get to the bottom of it and see your real reasoning.
It is just like dealing with a child. Perhaps you are envious of my experiences?

I was always stating that I have never played any other similar game to Jaguar's AvP if asked. Even not long time ago in some other thread, I wrote to one member who thought it is a Doom clone. And I compared it to Resident Evil to show him a better picture of it.

If you watched Aliens film from 1986 then you could find similar elements in Space Hulk computer games (yes that one from 1993 too or Space Crusade-latter I had on C64 also). This was the main reason for me to bring it up.

How old were you in 90s?
 

Afro Republican

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It is just like dealing with a child. Perhaps you are envious of my experiences?
You don't have any experiences, you never played Space hulk, shut up with your lies, play the game first before talking foolishness. You equally compared the two saying that SH was the closest comparison to AVP, AVP is mostly a shoot bang FPS, Space Hulk is a strategy game, stop pretending you have even played Space hulk, how does lying benefit you? We are done with this conversation if you want to whine and take the last word go for it but it won't change the fact you never played the game.

You said 1995-1996 was a fair comparison. But even a launch game like Ridge racer would have ran like shit on 3DO as you said. It not looked better than any 3DO racer out of the gate, it was butter smooth too. I knew right away it was a big step up.
It would have only ran slightly worse than the PSX version. PSX Ridge racer was not "silky smooth" It was a low a jerky game that wasn't even close to the arcades with horrible distorted and jaggy polygons.

You must be getting confused with the later updated version, Ridge Racer Revolution, which came out in late 1995 and is one of the few exceptions that I mentioned.

Of course that's still a hard comparison since the 3DO didn't have that many racing games, but RR was at least one of the games that were a pretty big leap, but not the original Ridge racer, nooooo.

Keep in mind I am not saying that the 3DO was comparable to the PSX, but it took the PSX some time before it really had a consistent flow of games that outdid the 3DO, to the point even some shovelware had some features the 3DO couldn't replicate. Even magazines were comparing the PSX to 3DO in the early days because they were comparable at the time. No one was doing that for the Jaguar for example.
 

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In terms of hardware, it was released in 1994 with no hardware changes to the 1995 NA release. By the end of both consoles looking at all the games, PSX was way ahead. Even consindering that, the PSX wasn't easy to develop for and the 3DO was?
I'm not a tech guy but I read an interview were the 3DO was very easy to develop for but to make sure every game ran well on every 3DO model, 3DO forced developers not to program anything that bypassed the OS and BIOS. So you could actually get more power from the 3DO if you were to get down a dirty. One of the developers got in trouble trying to do so I hear.

That generation was filled with bad decisions.

PS1: 2D games are dead no 2D, use terrible tools for drawing polygons.
SAT: Launch at a high price, surprise release, slap hardware in at the last second, hard to develop.
JAG: 3 processors, hard to make games for, buggy.
3DO: Don't you dare program a game that bypasses our OS and BIOS.
N64: Use cartridges, no sound chip, slow frame rates.
PC-FX: Abandon all those TG15 developers, focus on anime cutscenes, don't add 3D support.
 
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If the 3DO sold more initially they wouldn't have had their panic attack then set themselves on fire for almost 2 years, and would have had enough money to launch the M2 to compete with the Dreamcast. which would have still failed due to Segas previous decisions.
A 3DO vs. Dreamcast war would be covered by magazines and Sega would get more coverage by proxy than if they were the only ones around like in the current timeline. A war between the two may have actually gotten Sega more sales and support.
 

molasar

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You don't have any experiences, you never played Space hulk, shut up with your lies, play the game first before talking foolishness. You equally compared the two saying that SH was the closest comparison to AVP, AVP is mostly a shoot bang FPS, Space Hulk is a strategy game, stop pretending you have even played Space hulk, how does lying benefit you? We are done with this conversation if you want to whine and take the last word go for it but it won't change the fact you never played the game.
Man, you are making yourself a laughing stock here. You do not know me at all and I have no reasons to lie as there is nothing to gain here.
I already asked you about your history of gaming in 90s and you did not answer. Perhaps there is nothing there and you are just some retro collector.

Also I will give you a hint: if you look up for an old thread regarding systems you owned and first games you got on them, so you can see there what I wrote.

BTW, Space Hulk was known to me before it was even a computer game.