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[Dabanton]

Shameful.

 

[Kimosabae]

Ok lazy!

I said, they have add up with number of sources. simple.

Your broken english and avatar!

God you're cute!

 

[plufim]

Even accepting that a pirated copy is not a lost sale: the PC piracy numbers absolutely dwarf that of the consoles. If you had to pick either PC or HD twins, this is some pretty compelling evidence that PC is a risky strategy.

 

[Archer]

Mafia 2? Lol.

.

 

[Takao]

No, it isn't 1:1, but if it's closer to 1:1000, hard-line DRM which frustrates or even dissuades customers is beyond stupid...it's counter-intuitive. No offense but your anecdote does little to defend your point.

The only issue DRM on PSP games cause are for pirates and those who want to make back-up copies of their games. A normal consumer would just play it as any other game. I know there are many PSP games where the download numbers outweigh the sales figures greatly, that's just too much. It was mentioned earlier in this thread, but Dissidia: Final Fantasy was downloaded more than 5 million times just in 2009 (it was a 2008 release in Japan), the game's total life time sales can't be over 2 million worldwide. I find it very difficult to think that if the PSP was completely patched up the game would've sold exactly the same as it did with the current PSP.

 

[bee]

shame ubi's online at all times drm seems to put off so many legitimate purchasers, not had any issues with it myself and more importantly it works, hawx 2 and shaun white skateboarding remain uncracked on pc 2 months or so after release. i'm looking forward to the release of brotherhood on pc, i'm sure that will have an even better iteration of the protection system on it and of course its an extremely high profile game, will be interesting to see what happens

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Even accepting that a pirated copy is not a lost sale: the PC piracy numbers absolutely dwarf that of the consoles. If you had to pick either PC or HD twins, this is some pretty compelling evidence that PC is a risky strategy.

The more compelling numbers to look at are sales data. Obviously, these numbers aren't reassuring by any stretch, but they also don't paint a vivid picture of what exactly is going on.

 

[echoshifting]

Easy, voting with your wallet is the way to go. If people don't buy a product they will change it or stop making it. You don't want stupid DRMs in your games? Don't pirate them and don't buy games with said stupid DRM.
Also, this is not about getting rid of piracy completely. I don't know why people are thinking completely white or black. How about we slowdown piracy to a point it doesn't matter much for publishers so you don't get those draconian protections on your games anymore?

Problem here is that this is as much an educational and society problem than a technology one.

You don't think your approach is a little black and white? The problem with your suggestion is the perception of piracy numbers within the publishing arm of the industry. So let's say, a big game like Dragon Age II ends up coming packed with some obscene, hateful DRM. If I'm a huge Dragon Age fan, of course I'm gonna pick it up. But even if I don't, even if lots of people don't...the perception always seems to be that the DRM isn't strong enough, not that it's too strong. The perception is that people aren't buying it because they can crack it.

This blanket assumption that every customer is a potential hacker who presents a danger to the publisher's bottom line is both absurd and insulting. There's a right way to protect a game, and a wrong way. The wrong way results in an antagonistic relationship between the publisher and the customer base; it is incredibly alienating and demeaning to know that (for instance) you have to be online at all times while playing a game...just in case you're thinking about stealing it. Who wins? The hacker does; the DRM is always cracked eventually anyway. It is the actual customer who will have to deal with the DRM as long as they have the game (unless they resort to cracking it), and it is the publisher who has to deal with the negative perception.

Kind of reminds me of the "don't like it, don't fly" argument in support of the TSA's current actions. "Don't like it, don't buy" is a lose-lose for the publisher and the customer. The hacker still gets to play the game; he is the only one who gets exactly what he wants, every time.

 

[plufim]

The more compelling numbers to look at are sales data. Obviously, these numbers aren't reassuring by any stretch, but they also don't paint a vivid picture of what exactly is going on.

More people have pcs than 360's. So yeah.

Sure, but what fraction of those PCs are actually capable of modern gaming? Whenever a multiplatform game comes out, the PC sales are always the lowest, sometimes even beaten by the half-assed Wii port. If PC sales of BLOPs are the lowest and piracy rates of BLOPs are the highest, what does that say?

 

[Anasui Kishibe]

poor Red Steel

 

[Stumpokapow]

Question: Why are PC piracy numbers higher?

Answer: Eastern Europe, Russia, and China.

 

[Lostconfused]

will be interesting to see what happens

Its still going to get broken and pirated. Its just going to take a little while.

 

[Sgt.Pepper]

Pirates download anything. Hell they even pirated the Humble Bundle, which you could get at any price you wanted.

 

[SapientWolf]

I'm scratching my head at CODBLOPS and BC2. MP was pretty much the only redeeming factor for both of those titles. BF3 might not even have a singleplayer campaign.

 

[echoshifting]

Sure, but what fraction of those PCs are actually capable of modern gaming? Whenever a multiplatform game comes out, the PC sales are always the lowest, sometimes even beaten by the half-assed Wii port. If PC sales of BLOPs are the lowest and piracy rates of BLOPs are the highest, what does that say?

It doesn't say anything. You are implying a causal relationship exists when many alternative explanations cannot be disproven (i.e., the PC version of a multiplatform console game is often the worst version; gamers with multiple platforms typically buy console games on consoles; the PC version of multiplatform games is often the last to see release, sometimes by a wide margin...etc etc etc).

 

[Chauncy Talon]

Mafia II, wow. I knew it was pirated like crazy but not in those numbers.

 

[Boney]

So did Epic Mickey, that's probably number 6 or so on the list.

Other M is probably 17 or so.

...

you break my heart.

 

[John]

It doesn't say anything. You are implying a causal relationship exists when many alternative explanations cannot be disproven (i.e., the PC version of a multiplatform console game is often the worst version; gamers with multiple platforms typically buy console games on consoles; the PC version of multiplatform games is often the last to see release, sometimes by a wide margin...etc etc etc).

uh

 

[bee]

Its still going to get broken and pirated. Its just going to take a little while.

but if that little while happens to be 6 months or longer then it will have served its purpose and hopefully by then will have updated to fix the vulnerabilities that will inevitably be found

 

[Fuzzy]

Bullshit. No hackers gonna pirate wii party.

Maybe they have nieces and nephews. We sure as hell know they don't have any kids of their own.

 

[plufim]

It doesn't say anything. You are implying a causal relationship exists when many alternative explanations cannot be disproven (i.e., the PC version of a multiplatform console game is often the worst version; gamers with multiple platforms typically buy console games on consoles; the PC version of multiplatform games is often the last to see release, sometimes by a wide margin...etc etc etc).

These reasons you are listing? They are reasons to buy the console version over the PC version, I guess, but what reason are they to pirate the PC version? Is it something along the lines of "Well, this is the shittier version of the game, so fuck paying for it"?

If you seriously believe that no trend can be taken from this regarding PC games and lost sales to piracy, you have your head in the sand. You can argue all you want about minor details, but there clearly are more sales lost to piracy on PC than any other platform.

 

[echoshifting]

uh

Well, it is.

I know he referenced BLOPS and obviously that does not apply to BLOPS. Are you saying there aren't a lot of shitty PC ports?

 

[John]

Well, it is.

I know he referenced BLOPS and obviously that does not apply to BLOPS. Are you saying there aren't a lot of shitty PC ports?

they are still, with few exceptions, by leagues the best versions of the games.

 

[Stumpokapow]

If you seriously believe that no trend can be taken from this regarding PC games and lost sales to piracy, you have your head in the sand. You can argue all you want about minor details, but there clearly are more sales lost to piracy on PC than any other platform.

I'm not sure how that is clear.

PC could have 3 times as much piracy, 10 times as much piracy, 100 times as much piracy, or 1000 times as much piracy, but none of those numbers allow us to draw conclusions about the number of sales lost to piracy.

In fact, it seems incredibly feasible to me that a numerical majority of PC pirated downloads come from, as I said, Eastern Europe, Russia, and China--which collectively amount to essentially 0 lost sales due to widespread cultural piracy. On the other hand, while console piracy exists in those jurisdictions, consoles themselves are much more rare, so the numbers globally are lower.

 

[Lostconfused]

but if that little while happens to be 6 months or longer then it will have served its purpose and hopefully by then will have updated to fix the vulnerabilities that will inevitably be found

So the purpose of DRM is to annoy customers and delay piracy for an undetermined period of time? Then why not just you steam and not alienate a part of your consumer base?

 

[Version 3.0]

How are they forced to steal? And wouldn't that stealing justify the publisher to find new "annoying" ways for protection? The cycle continues.

I love PC gaming as much as the next guy, but some of you are full of shit.

"Forced" is BS, but "pirating" a game you bought in order to get away from intrusive DRM does happen. I've done it, and know others who have as well.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Sure, but what fraction of those PCs are actually capable of modern gaming? Whenever a multiplatform game comes out, the PC sales are always the lowest, sometimes even beaten by the half-assed Wii port. If PC sales of BLOPs are the lowest and piracy rates of BLOPs are the highest, what does that say?

If I'm absolutely determined to pirate Black Ops, I can do so on the consoles as well. The only thing that should matter to a publisher is the following: do they make money on a PC port? If the answer is "yes," then the fact that they are losing boatloads of theoretical dollars to piracy is beside the point.

 

[Firestorm]

If I'm absolutely determined to pirate Black Ops, I can do so on the consoles as well. The only thing that should matter to a publisher is the following: do they make money on a PC port? If the answer is "yes," then the fact that they are losing boatloads of theoretical dollars to piracy is beside the point.

Unless you're Capcom of course!

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Unless you're Capcom of course!

What a fun thread that was.

 

[Ranger X]

You don't think your approach is a little black and white? The problem with your suggestion is the perception of piracy numbers within the publishing arm of the industry. So let's say, a big game like Dragon Age II ends up coming packed with some obscene, hateful DRM. If I'm a huge Dragon Age fan, of course I'm gonna pick it up. But even if I don't, even if lots of people don't...the perception always seems to be that the DRM isn't strong enough, not that it's too strong. The perception is that people aren't buying it because they can crack it.

This blanket assumption that every customer is a potential hacker who presents a danger to the publisher's bottom line is both absurd and insulting. There's a right way to protect a game, and a wrong way. The wrong way results in an antagonistic relationship between the publisher and the customer base; it is incredibly alienating and demeaning to know that (for instance) you have to be online at all times while playing a game...just in case you're thinking about stealing it. Who wins? The hacker does; the DRM is always cracked eventually anyway. It is the actual customer who will have to deal with the DRM as long as they have the game (unless they resort to cracking it), and it is the publisher who has to deal with the negative perception.

Kind of reminds me of the "don't like it, don't fly" argument in support of the TSA's current actions. "Don't like it, don't buy" is a lose-lose for the publisher and the customer. The hacker still gets to play the game; he is the only one who gets exactly what he wants, every time.

Let's not mix things. My opinion is very simple and you're going in other territories than me up there. If you come to the conclusion that Dragon Age is worth the price entry (I don't really care about the reasons) and you buy it -- you're all fine. Case closed.

What's not fine is people pirating a game to play it for whatever reason instead of buying it. If a game isn't worth the price entry ( I don't really care about the reasons), you don't buy it and you don't play it. You simply do something else with your time.

I don't see how customers are potentially harmful before anything else. Customers are the ones that decides --- if they can have some integrity. So this is the problem right here. Some people will find reasons to not invest in a game but they don't have the integrity to not play that game and they pirate it to have a taste anyways. Those are the people I have a problem with. (and people simply pirating of course).

 

[Rorschach]

This is bullshit. Everyone knows piracy only exists on PC.

"Forced" is BS, but "pirating" a game you bought in order to get away from intrusive DRM does happen. I've done it, and know others who have as well.

Yeah. I don't know about these days, but it used to be really common to download boot hacks and NO-CD on every game you purchased to get rid of the long title screens, drm, and being able to play without a disc in the tray. Downloadable games have solved some of those things, though.

 

[plufim]

PC
1) Call of Duty: Black Ops (4,270,000)
Xbox 360
5) Call of Duty: Black Ops (930,000)

This is 4.5 times the downloads. And yet sales were much leaner on PC.

You can argue all sorts of excuses, but there is absolutely no way you can realistically argue there is no significant effect on PC when compared to console.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

Whenever a multiplatform game comes out, the PC sales are always the lowest

AFAIK, PC sales are actually quite difficult to come by.

The PCs strongest market (Europe) keeps its sales numbers for all platforms fairly restricted, and neither the NPD nor Media Create cover digital sales which most people assume is likely - at worst - half of total sales at this moment in time.

Both the US and Japan historically don't have particularly strong PC sales anyway.

EDIT:

This is 4.5 times the downloads. And yet sales were much leaner on PC.

You can argue all sorts of excuses, but there is absolutely no way you can realistically argue there is no significant effect on PC when compared to console.

These numbers aren't lost sales, or even totals of piracy: they are torrents downloaded on the PC. You cannot read too much into them for that reason, because they are data related to piracy, but not wholly representative of the big picture.

If you're a pirate and you want to pirate a PC game, your easiest cause of action is likely to be to download that game directly.

If you're a pirate and you want a Wii or 360 game, that is not necessarily the case - these numbers don't include people purchasing disk based copies for example.

 

[Nemo]

Question: Why are PC piracy numbers higher?

Answer: Eastern Europe, Russia, and China.

Where do you get that from?

 

[bee]

So the purpose of DRM is to annoy customers and delay piracy for an undetermined period of time? Then why not just you steam and not alienate a part of your consumer base?

well obviously you'd want it to be unobtrusive as possible but with the pc platform as it is, that ain't gonna happen. steam stops zero day piracy extremely well, but after that its business as usual and its pirated to shit after that.

i think if you can delay the pirate release for 6 months or more then yeah it is job done, anyone who pirates it after that would of done so anyway no matter what.

 

[brain_stew]

I bet the servers have been hacked from day one.!

You bet wrong.

 

[Lostconfused]

This is 4.5 times the downloads. And yet sales were much leaner on PC.

You can argue all sorts of excuses, but there is absolutely no way you can realistically argue there is no significant effect on PC when compared to console.

Um the flaws in your argument have been already pointed out. You are using sales numbers for only one region of the world. The torrent numbers only tell you how many times data was transferred. To be quiet honest you can't even make any other claims besides how many times a game was downloaded. Unless of course you care to tell us what clever way you use to derive how many lost sales per platform one of those downloads results in. You don't even need excuses your argument isn't based on sound logic.

 

[Lone_Prodigy]

poor Red Steel

Did piracy numbers of RS2 exceed actual sales?

EDIT: ******** says 300k, but it's ********.

 

[Equus Bellator Apex]

Question: Why are PC piracy numbers higher?

Answer: Eastern Europe, Russia, and China.

Racist.

 

[X26]

Haha. What? Pirated copy = lost sale. That's all there is to that.

...

 

[Steve Youngblood]

This is 4.5 times the downloads. And yet sales were much leaner on PC.

You can argue all sorts of excuses, but there is absolutely no way you can realistically argue there is no significant effect on PC when compared to console.

But try extrapolating this to a conclusion that actually matters. Publishers long ago decided not to target the PC exclusively with these high budget AAA blockbusters, so the question of whether or not a publisher should target the PC or the HD consoles is irrelevant. What actually matters is answering whether or not a publisher should release a PC version. And I don't understand why this data would suggest that they shouldn't. Multiply those numbers by ten and I'll still say we're missing a crucial piece of information: how did the title sell? Did those sales justify the port existing? If yes, then why are we wasting time crying over sales that are merely theoretical in nature?

 

[Granger Danger]

poor Red Steel

Does that even work without the Motion Plus peripheral?

 

[out0v0rder]

how the fuck can you even pirate bad company 2

Spoiler

holy shit it has single player mode?

 

[See You Next Wednesday]

Jesus Christ, PC piracy is fucking insane!

No wonder Developers are going elsewhere.

I mean JESUS at that number!
BLOPS was probably pirated more than all the copies of CoD games sold on the PC in the past 4 years.

 

[plufim]

Does that even work without the Motion Plus peripheral?

Nope. The only purchase one of the notorious Wii pirates I know in the past 2 years was a standalone motion plus. I like the guy, but geeze... and of course, he works in IT and lives alone, so he could easily afford to buy the games. He just chooses not to.

 

[ToxicAdam]

These are crazy big numbers.

Is it though? When you consider the pool of global gamers with the means of downloading a torrent. You're talking about hundreds of millions of people, probably.

 

[Enosh]

hmm I am suprised SC2 is that low

 

[Granger Danger]

Nope. The only purchase one of the notorious Wii pirates I know in the past 2 years was a standalone motion plus. I like the guy, but geeze... and of course, he works in IT and lives alone, so he could easily afford to buy the games. He just chooses not to.

There's no way all those pirates bought standalone Motion Pluses.

 

[mik]

Why Dante's Inferno?

360 owners love a bit of Devil cock.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Haha. What? Pirated copy = lost sale. That's all there is to that.

WHAT?!?! Are you serious? Many people who pirate had no intention of buying the game to begin with. Secondly, it isn't a lost sale since its not a disc. Its data, that is all. There is no supply being lost. There is no disc being stolen. It isn't keeping a person who has interest in the came from buying it. There is no correlation proven between piracy and lost sales.