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[Giallo Corsa]

Everyone is cooking Nolan, he went full Bungie... You never go full Bungie.

Now I wonder if it's going to have a big impact at the box office. This movie will be the Marathon of Hollywood

One can hope, but it will most likely cut into ticket sales among a certain segment of moviegoers who never made it past high school, the "I had a blast®, it looked great" crowd.

Those, and the whole "anti-chud®" movement that fights daily for internet righteousness®

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Regarding colours, to be fair to any epic movie it helps set the mood of being grungy, dreary and dangerous if it has that grey and dusty look.

If a historic movie is made out to look like a Club Med or Baywatch beach party with people wearing bight colourful clothes it kind of ruins the mood.

 

[Dr Bass]

I don't think the Odyssey is supposed to come across like an island vacation getaway.

 

[CGNoire]

Regarding colours, to be fair to any epic movie it helps set the mood of being grungy, dreary and dangerous if it has that grey and dusty look.

If a historic movie is made out to look like a Club Med or Baywatch beach party with people wearing bight colourful clothes it kind of ruins the mood.

Yeah he is reaching.

 

[twilo99]

Imagine a film about African folklore where the lead actress, which is supposed to be the most beautiful black woman alive, is actually portrayed as a pale redhead with freckles and all…

Have to wonder what the reactions to that would be..



"David Rubin served as President of the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences from 2019 to 2022.

In 2020, under his leadership, the Academy launched the "Representation and Inclusion Standards" for Best Picture eligibility. These rules, still in effect, require films to meet at least 2 of 4 diversity criteria involving race, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, or disability in on-screen roles, creative leadership, or crew."

GG

 

[Bernardougf]

 

[Germuso]

 

[IntentionalPun]

Weird how nobody cared the actors in Troy weren't Greek.

 

[IntentionalPun]

More like Heil-in of Berlin

 

[Draugoth]

May quantum computing fix our timeline

Spoiler: meme

 

[Dr Bass]

Weird how nobody cared the actors in Troy weren't Greek.

Nobody seems to care about the lack of accuracy in any of the past versions.

 

[twilo99]

Weird how nobody cared the actors in Troy weren't Greek.

The central/Northern European phenotype is MUCH closer to what Greek people look like than Central/South Africa

 

[IntentionalPun]

The central/Northern European phenotype is MUCH closer to what Greek people look like than Central/South Africa

I mean yeah no argument there lol

 

[kpopSuperstar]

Nobody seems to care about the lack of accuracy in any of the past versions.

They didn't have africans, transformers and travis scott in them. Europeans can pass for greek, we are the same people, just less hairy.

 

[EviLore]

Nobody seems to care about the lack of accuracy in any of the past versions.

Troy and Kingdom of Heaven around the same time were both criticized heavily for inaccuracies.

Of course, things have gotten infinitely worse since then.

 

[jason10mm]

Weird how nobody cared the actors in Troy weren't Greek.

The trumpet calls that every little ethnic group (except causasian) and sexual orientation (except cishet) MUST be played by an authentic member of said group is what drove this argument.

No one really questioned why english speaking people were cast in an......english speaking movie. Twenty years ago the tolerance for a fully subtitled film wasn't nearly as high as it is now.

But the "I must be represented on screen or I'm not seen" crowd screeched and cawed such that what is good for the goose must now be good for the gander. And the gulf between UK, australian, american, or german european people and greek specific one is MUST less than having sub-saharan african folks thrown into the mix, especially in the roles they are cast in.

Flip the narrative, have an Ethiopian mythology story, set thousands of years ago, yet some of the gods and native peoples are represented by caucasians or koreans. Kinda makes no sense, and in todays more global casting environment, totally unnecessary.....unless you are servicing an agenda, not your own movie.

 

[twilo99]

They didn't have africans, transformers and travis scott in them. Europeans can pass for greek, we are the same people, just less hairy.

Correct.

Like I said, imagine a movie about the ancient history of Nigeria, and the main native to the country characters are portrayed as Northern European…

Imagine the scenes

 

[IntentionalPun]

The trumpet calls that every little ethnic group (except causasian) and sexual orientation (except cishet) MUST be played by an authentic member of said group is what drove this argument.

No one really questioned why english speaking people were cast in an......english speaking movie. Twenty years ago the tolerance for a fully subtitled film wasn't nearly as high as it is now.

But the "I must be represented on screen or I'm not seen" crowd screeched and cawed such that what is good for the goose must now be good for the gander. And the gulf between UK, australian, american, or german european people and greek specific one is MUST less than having sub-saharan african folks thrown into the mix, especially in the roles they are cast in.

Flip the narrative, have an Ethiopian mythology story, set thousands of years ago, yet some of the gods and native peoples are represented by caucasians or koreans. Kinda makes no sense, and in todays more global casting environment, totally unnecessary.....unless you are servicing an agenda, not your own movie.

So scratch back? Act like the people you so despise?

Just never understood that. I don't think it should be a big deal that every single Hollywood film ever about an Egyptian story stars almost exclusively white actors and I also don't think 'tis a big deal Helen of Troy is Black. It's a fantasy movie made by a British guy, who cares?

If you don't think people should have "scratched" about Prince of Persia or Alladin then don't act all offended at The Odyssey.

I'm pretty sure Nolan is just making the movie he wants and working with the people he wants to. Much like he did on Oppenheimer, a movie almost exclusively featuring white people that won he Best Picture Oscar the same year they implemented the diversity rules (that I don't support but also don't really give a shit about.)

 

[jason10mm]

Turns out I did have the DC of Troy in my library so I fired it up.

All Nolan had to do is carry that vibe through the Odyssey and I suspect the film would be hailed as a masterpiece. Nolan had a unique chance to bring us as accurate a portrayal of that period as possible, but instead he is more abstract than a low budget 80's italian sword and sorcery film.

 

[P:axMagellanic]

Happy to finally see Troy getting the love it deserves. Tremendous film.

The last samurai... Another great movie lambasted on release.

 

[Gp1]

Weird how nobody cared the actors in Troy weren't Greek.

Not white enough to be privileged, not minority enough for anyone to care

I remember the backlash when Gal Gadot was cast as Cleopatra...

 

[jason10mm]

Damn, the DC of Troy is INSANE. I do not recall so much head splitting and gore. Nor as much of Diane Krugers flawless body, daaaayum.

Oddly, Brad Pitt is the weakest link here. He hasn't quite nailed that slick swagger persona he has later on. Maybe its the pseudo accent he's affecting, or the cadence of the dialogue is just throwing him off. The decision to frame the film largely around Achilles and his pride was a good one though.

 

[jason10mm]

So scratch back? Act like the people you so despise?

Just never understood that. I don't think it should be a big deal that every single Hollywood film ever about an Egyptian story stars almost exclusively white actors and I also don't think 'tis a big deal Helen of Troy is Black. It's a fantasy movie made by a British guy, who cares?

If you don't think people should have "scratched" about Prince of Persia or Alladin then don't act all offended at The Odyssey.

I'm pretty sure Nolan is just making the movie he wants and working with the people he wants to. Much like he did on Oppenheimer, a movie almost exclusively featuring white people that won he Best Picture Oscar the same year they implemented the diversity rules (that I don't support but also don't really give a shit about.)

People do, and did, complain about prior casting. And it's just "equity" to ask for the same outcome, no?

If folks don't want to see white casts, then stop making stuff set in white places. Show me Rome versus Carthage if you want african actors (though if course, they should be northern africans). It's also important to consider the audience. You are not gonna get 200 million to make a film using all local greeks because greece is a country of 10 million people. You need actors a broader audience will recognize, which means you need folks europe and america will want to see, but who could at least capture the vibe of greece and represent the descendant culture, as pretty much all of western civilization hails from the ideas and culture of that area.

 

[JusticeForAll]

Just bought the dc of Troy. Never knew there was one that improved on the film.

 

[EviLore]

Just bought the dc of Troy. Never knew there was one that improved on the film.

Generally considered to be better except for the different score.

 

[Sohurmk833]

Nobody seems to care about the lack of accuracy in any of the past versions.

There is big differences between somewhat inaccurate but still believable like Troy and full on clown show like Odyssey.

 

[NeoIkaruGAF]

Regarding colours, to be fair to any epic movie it helps set the mood of being grungy, dreary and dangerous if it has that grey and dusty look.

If a historic movie is made out to look like a Club Med or Baywatch beach party with people wearing bight colourful clothes it kind of ruins the mood.

I don't think the Odyssey is supposed to come across like an island vacation getaway.

Heavy disagree here. Epic movies in the 50s and 60s were full of color and they lost nothing for it. Imagine Ben Hur or Lawrence of Arabia desaturated to hell like a Nolan movie. Pretty sad, no?

We've just been conditioned to see this shit as normal by two decades of grey or piss-yellow movies and games.
The world is full of color, and I'd rather have an epic movie spanning the Mediterranean look like reality than a drab world where every day is overcast. That part of the real world is sunny and colorful, and the palaces Odysseus visited in his travels must have been full of bright colors everywhere. The grungy look has had its time in the spotlight, and it sucked all the time. Let it die already and bring back the colors of reality. There's B&W movies that look sunnier than Nolan's shit.

 

[Dr Bass]

Troy and Kingdom of Heaven around the same time were both criticized heavily for inaccuracies.

Of course, things have gotten infinitely worse since then.

I stand corrected.

And agreed.

So, just for the record in this thread, I am definitely not defending the casting choices. I think there are likely "reasons" for them, and not all of them can be attributed to Nolan. But I could be wrong on that. But if I had to guess, I would assume Nolan kinda doesn't care about the casting as long as he gets to make his movies with his IMAX camera.

Edit: Also the amount of sheer anger I see online over what we see in the trailers kinda baffles me. Can we see the movie and then get angry?

 

[Knight of the Round]

Troy and Kingdom of Heaven around the same time were both criticized heavily for inaccuracies.

Of course, things have gotten infinitely worse since then.

Yup. In my country (Greece) we had bitched quite a bit in Troy and 300. I remember leaving the cinema when Troy ended alongside my brother and my cousin and I heard a 40-year old woman tell her husband, "You have to be completely clueless in the Iliad to appreciate this film". And, perhaps surprisingly to the today-woke crowd, there were a LOT of us who laughed at the movie portraying Achilles as straight and him having Patroclus as a 'cousin', when we all knew and were ok with the fact that the dude was gay, or at least bisexual. They were lovers, not cousins.

As for 300, I remember us Greeks being impressed with the cinematography and applauded the bad-assery the movie portrayed via the ancient Greeks, but rolled our eyes at the fantasy elements showing ogres, Xerxes' immortals looking like masked undead and the like. I know it's based on a comic, but the battle is historic and factual, not fictional.

Ironically, Captain Corellis' Mandolin with Nickolas Cage must have been one of the few Hollywood movies which had quite a few actual Greek actors in the film, some of them very well-known and respected in the Greek Film Industry.

As for the Odyssey, I have zero interest in watching it.

 

[ProtoByte]

Let's cool down on calling this movie a piece of shit just because of a couple of casting decisions which are practically inconsequential.

inconsequential because Helen of Troy and Achilles are barely in the Odyssey.

A lot of fake fans. Fact is that the vast majority of people arguing about this online haven't read anything Homer in full as much as they have absorbed snippets through memes and through this discourse in real time. The idea that the foundations of Western Civilization are under (effective) siege because Lupita Nyongo is playing Helen is a little dramatic. It's similar to the widespread "expertise" about Japanese history that suddenly manifested around AC Shadows because of Yasuke.

I will say this in agreement with you and others though: I don't know why tf Nolan thought this would be a good idea. Why Paige or Nyongo thought this would be a good idea. I'm similarly baffled about the Harry Potter HBO writers and producers deciding that black Snape was a good idea and not totally unnecessary after a decade of failed race and gender swaps, and that the actor himself decided to sign onto it.

It's a shame, but the nuance is lost as ever. Hollywood should have learned the lesson by now. And as it pertains to this movie, the BIG NAME casting thing is detrimental all around. This doesn't look or feel like you're watching a movie about the characters of The Odyssey so much as a shitty modern Broadway spin exhibition for actors we've seen in a million things to pretend. It's manages to be the most hackish attempt at mass appeal and also so total self-congratulatory inside baseball for people who are into Hollywood either as professionals or pundits.

It's ridiculous to cast "Elliot" Paige in anything to do with ancient aesthetics. It also doesn't serve any viable purpose to try forcing a consensus that Lupita Nyongo is the most attractive actress in Hollywood.

But then it also isn't a good thing that so much of the internet has the most virulent reaction specifically to Nyongo when the entire cast (seriously, Matt Damon?? Charlize Theron?) is out of place, for obvious reasons. It isn't a good thing that people make spread AI images as legit conformation that Paige is definitely playing Achilles.

 

[Giallo Corsa]

Yup. In my country (Greece) we had bitched quite a bit in Troy and 300. I remember leaving the cinema when Troy ended alongside my brother and my cousin and I heard a 40-year old woman tell her husband, "You have to be completely clueless in the Iliad to appreciate this film". And, perhaps surprisingly to the today-woke crowd, there were a LOT of us who laughed at the movie portraying Achilles as straight and him having Patroclus as a 'cousin', when we all knew and were ok with the fact that the dude was gay, or at least bisexual. They were lovers, not cousins.

As for 300, I remember us Greeks being impressed with the cinematography and applauded the bad-assery the movie portrayed via the ancient Greeks, but rolled our eyes at the fantasy elements showing ogres, Xerxes' immortals looking like masked undead and the like. I know it's based on a comic, but the battle is historic and factual, not fictional.

Ironically, Captain Corellis' Mandolin with Nickolas Cage must have been one of the few Hollywood movies which had quite a few actual Greek actors in the film, some of them very well-known and respected in the Greek Film Industry.

As for the Odyssey, I have zero interest in watching it.

Knight, just a small correction, brother:

The idea that Achilles and Patroclus were homosexual lovers is a theory, not an established fact.
Yes, some ancient authors strongly implied it, but it's never explicitly stated in the Iliad itself, for example, Homer never directly says they were lovers.
As another example, Aeschylus heavily suggested a romantic relationship between them while Xenophon outright rejected that interpretation.

So ultimately, they may have simply been extraordinarily close companions bound by immense loyalty and brotherhood ("super-bros" in today's world, or the same bond that war veterans share between them) or, they may indeed have been romantically involved.

Either way, it has always remained a subject of debate precisely because the relationship was left ambiguous.

What's fact though is that they weren't "cousins" like the movie Troy suggested/showed

Cheers

 

[Fake]

So long.

 

[Knight of the Round]

Knight, just a small correction, brother:

The idea that Achilles and Patroclus were homosexual lovers is a theory, not an established fact.
Yes, some ancient authors strongly implied it, but it's never explicitly stated in the Iliad itself, for example, Homer never directly says they were lovers.
As another example, Aeschylus heavily suggested a romantic relationship between them while Xenophon outright rejected that interpretation.

So ultimately, they may have simply been extraordinarily close companions bound by immense loyalty and brotherhood ("super-bros" in today's world, or the same bond that war veterans share between them) or, they may indeed have been romantically involved.

Either way, it has always remained a subject of debate precisely because the relationship was left ambiguous.

What's fact though is that they weren't "cousins" like the movie Troy suggested/showed

Cheers

King, that is a very fair point.

I should have worded it better and say that due to the ambiguity, the majority of us have no problem with Achilles being depicted as gay, or at least, someone who swings his sword both ways. While some might say they were dudebros and Achilles took his death way too heavily, others can say that this was a rage which could be induced only by the death of a lover. But you are correct, Homer does not explicitly state what his sexuality was, and I shouldn't have presented it as fact.

What is a fact, is that Greeks wouldn't have been enraged if Achilles in 'Troy' was presented as gay, while looking at Helen of Troy in Nolan's 'Odyssey' is far more cringe to us.

Of course, 'enraged' is a strong word - we usually don't overreact in Hollywood movies like people were in the film 'The Last Temptation of Christ' with William Dafoe.

 

[EviLore]

King, that is a very fair point.

I should have worded it better and say that due to the ambiguity, the majority of us have no problem with Achilles being depicted as gay, or at least, someone who swings his sword both ways. While some might say they were dudebros and Achilles took his death way too heavily, others can say that this was a rage which could be induced only by the death of a lover. But you are correct, Homer does not explicitly state what his sexuality was, and I shouldn't have presented it as fact.

What is a fact, is that Greeks wouldn't have been enraged if Achilles in 'Troy' was presented as gay, while looking at Helen of Troy in Nolan's 'Odyssey' is far more cringe to us.

Of course, 'enraged' is a strong word - we usually don't overreact in Hollywood movies like people were in the film 'The Last Temptation of Christ' with William Dafoe.

In The Odyssey, there's a section where Telemachus visits Menelaus and everyone starts crying uncontrollably from retelling stories of the Trojan War, to the point where Helen needs to secretly drug everyone with magical opioids so that they can get some sleep.

Homer told epic stories with heightened emotions. In that context, Achilles x Patroclus doesn't need to be a gay romance. Of course, some other sources do interpret it that way, as Giallo Corsa mentioned.

 

[kruis]

In The Odyssey, there's a section where Telemachus visits Menelaus and everyone starts crying uncontrollably from retelling stories of the Trojan War, to the point where Helen needs to secretly drug everyone with magical opioids so that they can get some sleep.

Homer told epic stories with heightened emotions. In that context, Achilles x Patroclus doesn't need to be a gay romance. Of course, other sources do interpret it that way, as Giallo Corsa mentioned.

It's unfortunate that we live in an age where a long true friendship between men is mocked ("bromance") and where every single example of such a friendship in history or in literature will be viewed through a gay lens.

 

[Dr Bass]

It's unfortunate that we live in an age where a long true friendship between men is mocked ("bromance") and where every single example of such a friendship in history or in literature will be viewed through a gay lens.

Hey, they tried to make Bert and Ernie gay too. Some people have an agenda.

 

[jason10mm]

It's unfortunate that we live in an age where a long true friendship between men is mocked ("bromance") and where every single example of such a friendship in history or in literature will be viewed through a gay lens.

That's because writers come from a world where they are ALWAYS trying to one up each other, undermine others, and another succeeding means you are losing.

If they did a year in an isolated, hostile environment where you MUST rely on your fellow man for survival, they would understand these mythic archetypes much better.

 

[Giallo Corsa]

 

[jason10mm]

Finished up the Troy directors Cut, pretty sure the theatrical run didn't include greeks throwing trojan babies into fires. Brutal (spoilers) sack of Troy.

The heightened violence and intensity in the DC really sells the war aspects well.

Though seeing Helen run off with Paris...WTF? Definitely would have generated some inline ire had social media been as prevalent.

 

[vindafarna]

I am generally reluctant to promote AI slop - but I would watch this fan-made AI stuff over Nolan's Odyssey aberration.

Fan-made trailer for the Odyssey, surprisingly well done:

 

[Dirk Benedict]

Whoopi Goldberg

She's going to play Santa Clause and will be unavailable for this movie.

Troy and Kingdom of Heaven around the same time were both criticized heavily for inaccuracies.

Of course, things have gotten infinitely worse since then.

I would take those inaccuracies any day of the year over what some are calling a humiliation ritual, a masterstroke in trolling, revisionism, etc.
It's not that big of a deal, because, ultimately, these people are making Their Movie. Not Ours or mine. They should fear the investment money that doesn't give a shit about accolades that are earned by ticking boxes instead of creating an unforgettable cinematic experience for the moviegoer. I have a positive outlook that there are people with money that don't give a fuck about earning those awards, but it would be difficult getting good actors for such films because a lot of them aspire for those accolades.

 

[NeoIkaruGAF]

I am generally reluctant to promote AI slop - but I would watch this fan-made AI stuff over Nolan's Odyssey aberration.

Fan-made trailer for the Odyssey, surprisingly well done:

Very nice Scylla, wow!

 

[nkarafo]

Troy (2004) is one of the better examples of "Perhaps I treated you too harshly" we have in cinema. I remember that film was heavily criticized when it released, but I guess we didn't know how good we had it.

Although i love it, it's not like the movie was great, it was just OK. Whatever criticisms were fair IMO. The issue is the standards today are so low that mediocre movies from the past seem like masterpieces. It doesn't show how good we had it (i mean we did but not because of Troy), it shows how bad we have it now.

 

[Trilobit]

It's like a colorblind person taking revenge on the world.

 

[near]

With all the doom and gloom around this, what are everyone's box office predictions? I still think it will do really well commercially.

 

[nkarafo]

With all the doom and gloom around this, what are everyone's box office predictions? I still think it will do really well commercially.

It will probably sell enough tickets.

I just hope Nolan doesn't win any oscars so his credibility gets ruined for nothing.

 

[near]

It will probably sell enough tickets.

I just hope Nolan doesn't win any oscars so his credibility gets ruined for nothing.

What if it's actually good? Would you be willing to overlook some of the casting choices?

 

[Mengy]

With all the doom and gloom around this, what are everyone's box office predictions? I still think it will do really well commercially.

It's a Nolan film so I think it will at a minimum do good. Might underperform his usual box office numbers if the DEI backlash has a sizable impact, but Nolan has a fanbase who will pay to see anything he does, so a profitable movie at a minimum is a good bet. I mean DEI crap aside Nolan is still a great film maker after all.

 

[nkarafo]

What if it's actually good? Would you be willing to overlook some of the casting choices?

No.

It shits on my culture too heavily to ignore which means it will always be distracting to me.

And also, the cast plays a huge part in a movie's quality. How can a movie be good enough when almost every character is ruined by the terrible casting?

Even without the insulting casting, even judging by just the visuals and atmosphere/vibe, the trailers don't look good at all.

This movie is the embodiment of the "how do you know it's shit while shitting on the plate" meme.