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The Official Left 4 Dead Thread

Twig

Banned
May 9, 2007
11,446
0
0
PillowKnight said:
Sure you have! I still recall that time you rage quit and vowed to never play versus ever again.
That is because I am a manbaby. That has nothing to do with imbalance. Everything to do with my complete and utter suckage.

At least I admit it, though! Where are you with your admittance! Nowhere! Too busy with denial! It is a river in Egypt!
 

fallout

Member
Jun 8, 2004
12,875
1
0
37
Downtown, Canada
www.n-sider.com
I've always found that the only real issue that people have with versus is that playing as the infected can be incredibly difficult and frustrating because you die a lot. Given the way that the game is setup, I think you're supposed to die more than the survivors. A lot more. I always figured that was why the game kept score. Maybe the scoring system could be reworked a bit, but it seems to work fine enough as it is.

I guess the issue that the "hardcore elite" frusmod players have is that it's too easy to make it through levels as the survivors once you're good enough at the game. Most of us don't have to deal with that because we're just not that good.

PillowKnight said:
TheOneGuy said:
I'm not even talking about what works anymore (though I've given plenty of reasons, you just choose to ignore them because you are a manbaby). I'm just talking about fucking personal preference and experience.

You can bitch and moan all you want about imbalances and whatever else bullshit you want to spout, but I don't care. I've never had any problems with versus as it is, and no amount of crying wolf from a bunch of manbabies will ever change my mind!
Sure you have! I still recall that time you rage quit and vowed to never play versus ever again.
This is more of a Twig problem than a versus problem.
 

1-D_FTW

Member
Jun 14, 2006
17,069
0
0
vertopci said:
We have a reason why CEVO/Frus works, you guys don't have a single reason why vanilla gameplay works.

Because it doesn't


Or you just ignore the reasons given. Play to have fun is a pretty good reason. Most people accept that as a good reason.

You guys have just been so corrupted by the "competitive" scene and have maps distilled into a single strategy (move as a single blob with shotties from pretermined safest spot to predetermined spot) that you're incapable of any longer seeing it's boring as hell.

The fact the frusmod necessitates taking advantages of the broken design of the map/infected limitations is all the better. It separates the dedicated hardcore from the rest. May the best team win.

Except it's boring as hell if you're not drinking the kool-aid.

Of course, a lot of this could have been eliminated had Valve just nerfed the shotgun hardcore. I can see why they'd want it more powerful on consoles (since accuracy is more difficult), but on the PC the thing is a joke.
 

vertopci

Member
Oct 12, 2006
3,329
0
0
Pittsburgh
Volcynika said:
Nah, it works fine. Can't help we're not "bawwwwwwwww infected underpowered need moar unbalance!"

But it's cool dawg. People like you always have choice! Except for games sans ded servers.

Works fine? Give me one reason how it works fine. The scoring system is broken, random spawn times for infected is absolutely retarded. And giving survivors up to 8 chances to redeem themselves after they fuck up is fine?
 
Jul 6, 2007
2,964
0
0
SoCal
vertopci said:
Works fine? Give me one reason how it works fine. The scoring system is broken, random spawn times for infected is absolutely retarded. And giving survivors up to 8 chances to redeem themselves after they fuck up is fine?
You get to play as the special infected a lot longer. =D
 

cakefoo

Member
Jun 24, 2006
5,264
0
1,270
usa
Volcynika said:
Nah, it works fine. Can't help we're not "bawwwwwwwww infected underpowered need moar unbalance!"

But it's cool dawg. People like you always have choice! Except for games sans ded servers.
If more power is all we wanted, don't you think we'd be using a config that made the infected more powerful without making half our time spent trudging along as the vulnerable survivor team? Frusmod effectively makes playing against AND AS survivors more interesting.
 

vertopci

Member
Oct 12, 2006
3,329
0
0
Pittsburgh
RocketDarkness said:
You get to play as the special infected a lot longer. =D

You get to attack more times than in vanilla L4D since the spawn timer is always 20 seconds. Instead of 20 to 32 seconds. Plus you always get a tank. And everyone loves to play as the tank. And tanks usually prolong a map. So you actually don't get to play as SI longer :lol
 

Blizzard

Banned
Jan 23, 2008
36,027
0
0
fallout said:
It's .... fun?
Everyone has a different idea of fun. My own idea of fun is playing as the infected team. There are lots of other games I could play where I shoot aliens, zombies, headcrabs, WW2 soldiers, or whatever. There are not so many where I play as the zombie trying to kill the humans (Stubbs the Zombie is one of them, but not very many people seemed to like that game).

On one hand, you would think that survivors nearly always surviving is fun for infected people because you get to play infected for longer, and you have more of a chance of getting a tank before you kill everyone.

On the other hand, I feel that it is frustrating and not fun when zombies in general and tanks in particular can't do much, and fight against survivors who constantly heal etc. (even worse before they fixed the spawns, so sometimes you'd get like 3 medkits and the other team would get 6+). Yes, this frustration may largely be due to the other team being "good" and moving as a blob with shotguns. So I suppose your conclusion would be that I should only play against teams who spread out and split up? I guess that could work.

On another note...I used to think -I- was bad at complaining or arguing, but holy cow at this thread. Hasn't Twig admitted explicitly (multiple times?) that he's trolling, arguing, being silly, or just trying to annoy people in general?
At this point, Volc will now call me a nub AND claim that I call everyone trolls.
When I take the time to type out a semi-coherent, in my opinion, message, Twig will then respond with WAT I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU SAY. Someone else even noticed, apparently, thus the ENGLISH DO YOU SPEAK IT picture response a page or two ago. So since Twig's behavior is apparently encouraged or at least tolerated by the moderators, why are people still trying to actually respond to him? Do you enjoy being insulted or something? :lol
 

cakefoo

Member
Jun 24, 2006
5,264
0
1,270
usa
1-D_FTW said:
Or you just ignore the reasons given. Play to have fun is a pretty good reason. Most people accept that as a good reason.

You guys have just been so corrupted by the "competitive" scene and have maps distilled into a single strategy (move as a single blob with shotties from pretermined safest spot to predetermined spot) that you're incapable of any longer seeing it's boring as hell.
Um, we have seen it's boring as hell- thus where frusmod comes in. :lol
 

PillowKnight

Member
Jan 15, 2007
2,487
0
0
TheOneGuy said:
That is because I am a manbaby. That has nothing to do with imbalance. Everything to do with my complete and utter suckage.

At least I admit it, though! Where are you with your admittance! Nowhere! Too busy with denial! It is a river in Egypt!
I wish I could make you understand just how incapable the infected are, but it's something you need to experience for yourself.

As far as manbabyness, im no man baby, I take my lumps and say "more please." Also, we don't play frusmod so that we can wipe teams out with ease--we play it to make it more challenging for ourselves (as survivors, obviously).

You guys have just been so corrupted by the "competitive" scene and have maps distilled into a single strategy (move as a single blob with shotties from pretermined safest spot to predetermined spot) that you're incapable of any longer seeing it's boring as hell.

The fact the frusmod necessitates taking advantages of the broken design of the map/infected limitations is all the better. It separates the dedicated hardcore from the rest. May the best team win.

Except it's boring as hell if you're not drinking the kool-aid.

Of course, a lot of this could have been eliminated had Valve just nerfed the shotgun hardcore. I can see why they'd want it more powerful on consoles (since accuracy is more difficult), but on the PC the thing is a joke.
You're dead wrong though, and your post shows a fundamental misunderstand of the dynamics of l4d.It's difficult to explain, but to highlight a point; we do not move as a big blob, and doing so is actually really friggin dumb. Also, using all shotties leads to a huge disadvantage, in general we have 1-2 person take an uzi. That "corruption" from the competitive scene, is what l4d is at higher skill levels when both survivors and infected play is at its best.

However, no one's arguing that the vanilla l4d can't be fun. I think there's a misunderstanding there. What were saying is that experienced l4d players find vanilla mode way too easy(my personal reason for this isnt med kits, but the lack of tanks).
 

EmCeeGramr

Member
Jun 25, 2005
38,456
0
0
goo goo gah gah i'm a big dumb babby who cares about a bunch of bullshit nobody can give a shit about

give me my bah-bah and blankie
 

Blizzard

Banned
Jan 23, 2008
36,027
0
0
I guess I will also insert my idea of fun when playing on survivors -- doing gauntlet-ish races to the finish, despite hazards from zombies, fire, and tanks. Everyone typically dies in garish fashion, but I think it's funny and fun. But maybe in turn, that makes it not fun for the infected team! They don't get to attack for as long. :(

And despite whatever vert might say, I am at least theoretically capable of being a "decent" player. I can and have coordinated my team over the mic, worked hard to attack the survivors, tried to defend teammates, beaten Nabs+vert+link+fish a time or two, even. I just don't usually enjoy doing that. Like playing expert L4D, it feels too much like work to me, and if I spend most of my life doing work, I'd prefer my games not to follow in that vein.

EmCeeGramr said:
goo goo gah gah i'm a big dumb babby who cares about a bunch of bullshit nobody can give a shit about

give me my bah-bah and blankie
Ah, discussion!
 

Volcynika

Member
Dec 17, 2007
21,317
0
0
Light coordinating is ok for me, but doing some crazy "OK EVERYONE GO IN THIS ORDER AT THIS POINT" just seems like too much effort to care about.
 

1-D_FTW

Member
Jun 14, 2006
17,069
0
0
There's a difference between doing gauntlet and dissecting a map to the point you know the best camping spot whenever an attack is initiated and then running there to exploit the god-like nature of shotgun camping.

Or devising the most fortified spots on the map to run to depending on where a tank spawns and running there to camp him with shotguns (Even though tanks are easy to kill on normal just by having the team flank him in open spaces.)

There's a middle ground. You progress at a normal pace and you shoot (and let gunplay skill determine success) whenever you're being attacked.

Exploiting the fact the infected don't have camp busting capabilities and maps have spots that border on invincible is understandable for competitions. But it's boring and removes any predictability from the game. And frusmod requires you play like this if you want success.

PillowKnight said:
I wish I could make you understand just how incapable the infected are, but it's something you need to experience for yourself.

As far as manbabyness, im no man baby, I take my lumps and say "more please." Also, we don't play frusmod so that we can wipe teams out with ease--we play it to make it more challenging for ourselves (as survivors, obviously).


You're dead wrong though, and your post shows a fundamental misunderstand of the dynamics of l4d.It's difficult to explain, but to highlight a point; we do not move as a big blob, and doing so is actually really friggin dumb. Also, using all shotties leads to a huge disadvantage, in general we have 1-2 person take an uzi. That "corruption" from the competitive scene, is what l4d is at higher skill levels when both survivors and infected play is at its best.

However, no one's arguing that the vanilla l4d can't be fun. I think there's a misunderstanding there. What were saying is that experienced l4d players find vanilla mode way too easy(my personal reason for this isnt med kits, but the lack of tanks).

I only played it once or twice. And I've not watched any competitive recordings. So I'm sure there are some fundamental flaws in my arguments. I'm just expressing my hate that it rewards the two things I find most broken: shotguns and nearly invisible camp spots. Gaf games aren't tournaments. I'd prefer off the cuff play styles. Especially if teams aren't balanced and it's clear one team is greatly overmatched.
 

Twig

Banned
May 9, 2007
11,446
0
0
Blizzard said:
When I take the time to type out a semi-coherent, in my opinion, message, Twig will then respond with WAT I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU SAY.
Actually I just sincerely had no idea what you were talking about or what relevance it had to the quote you were responding to. D:

I'm just trying to make light of the whole sitchyashun but some people take it too seriously I guess. I mean we all love L4D, right?

GROUP HUGZ ALL AROUND
vertopci said:
Plus you always get a tank. And everyone loves to play as the tank.
Actually I hate playing as the tank. X: And the boomer.

Hunter and smoker FTW. Smoker especially. Except I suck so it's probably better I don't get the smoker. ;_;
 

vertopci

Member
Oct 12, 2006
3,329
0
0
Pittsburgh
1-D_FTW said:
There's a difference between doing gauntlet and dissecting a map to the point you know the best camping spot whenever an attack is initiated and then running there to exploit the god-like nature of shotgun camping.

Or devising the most fortified spots on the map to run to depending on where a tank spawns and running there to camp him with shotguns (Even though tanks are easy to kill on normal just by having the team flank him in open spaces.)

There's a middle ground. You progress at a normal pace and you shoot (and let gunplay skill determine success) whenever you're being attacked.

Exploiting the fact the infected don't have camp busting capabilities and maps have spots that border on invincible is understandable for competitions. But it's boring and removes any predictability from the game. And frusmod requires you play like this if you want success.

??

1. Camping against a decent infected doesn't really work very well except in a couple spots in FrusMod. But guess what? In vanilla L4D those camping spots work very well! You could say that they border on invincible.

2. You can't let gunplay skill determine success in a game where you need very little gunplay skill. Yes, L4D requires very little gunplay skill whether you want to admit it or not.

3. FrusMod requires you to actually attempt to predict what the other team will do and counter them instead of just running ahead and using kits to cover your mistakes.

TheOneGuy said:
Actually I hate playing as the tank. X: And the boomer.

Playing as the tank is like being the incredible Hulk! Who doesn't want to be the Incredible Hulk?!!

Actually after those last two shitty movies, I guess I can understand if you don't want to be the Hulk
 

Twig

Banned
May 9, 2007
11,446
0
0
vertopci said:
Playing as the tank is like being the incredible Hulk! Who doesn't want to be the Incredible Hulk?!!

Actually after those last two shitty movies, I guess I can understand if you don't want to be the Hulk
My suckage means me as the tank equals failure 99% of the time. TOO MUCH PRESSURE
 

1-D_FTW

Member
Jun 14, 2006
17,069
0
0
vertopci said:
??

1. Camping against a decent infected doesn't really work very well except in a couple spots in FrusMod. But guess what? In vanilla L4D those camping spots work very well! You could say that they border on invincible.

2. You can't let gunplay skill determine success in a game where you need very little gunplay skill. Yes, L4D requires very little gunplay skill whether you want to admit it or not.

3. FrusMod requires you to actually attempt to predict what the other team will do and counter them instead of just running ahead and using kits to cover your mistakes.

We've already gone over this battle last week. My one experience was a lousy one. And the fact you basically stated you don't believe in sportsmanship in a blowout is why I ended the argument with my mouth dropped.

As for #2, I know this: The shotgun requires little aiming, is way overpowered, and has too much ammo. The levels are also poorly designed for versus. But it's my belief that in a casual setting where fun is the purpose, frusmod's elimination of the assault rife takes away any run and gun gameplay. It plays up all the things boring about L4D.

Maybe you can't put the genie back into the bottle. You guys know the maps too well to ever do something that's not optimal strategy. But it'd be nice to at least see you admit you can see why the more casual wouldn't like it.
 

Sibylus

Banned
Dec 18, 2007
23,682
1
0
waypoint.vice.com


I play a lot of coop, survivors almost always live through each map and make it to the escape vehicle. And that's fine, variety is good. In my view, Versus should typically involve a lot of survivor death, in a way to distance itself from coop, and also to make it more challenging for humans [1]. Versus should be tough for humans, but not as tough as Survival, where player death is universal and inescapable.

On the spectrum, vanilla Versus tends to lean heavily to the right, with survivors frequently surviving. I enjoy Versus more when it dips to the left, when survivors tend to die more than they survive yet still make it to the safe house enough to make things interesting.

Scavenge mode is interesting to contemplate in regard to player death, but ultimately can't be placed anywhere until after we start playing it a lot.

Would I welcome more randomness back into Versus? Maybe, the mode still managed to be fun even when teams were getting screwed over with random tanks. Perhaps a config could supply an additional Versus mode permutation to break up the tedium with an ultra-chaotic mode, a less competitive one, but also a lot more organic. If one completely randomized health kits, guns, pills, grenades, etc, it would still probably be difficult for the survivors and rewarding for the infected. Frusmod is enjoyable, and I think this Chaos config would be a good supplement to it. Variety!




[1] Worth mentioning is that coop players can enable Expert difficulty or Realism mode, while Versus is fixed at Normal difficulty. So to customize one's experience, configs and other sweeping changes are usually necessary.​
 

Twig

Banned
May 9, 2007
11,446
0
0
I like versus way more when it was still random. This perfect balance crap is boring.
vertopci said:
Just blame your teammates!
This is a flawless plan!
1D_FTW said:
But it'd be nice to at least see you admit you can see why the more casual wouldn't like it.
Actually I don't think they've ever said anything other than "we've played so much we need this to make it more challenging" which implies they're not casual and people who are not like them don't need it.
 

vertopci

Member
Oct 12, 2006
3,329
0
0
Pittsburgh
1-D_FTW said:
We've already gone over this battle last week. My one experience was a lousy one. And the fact you basically stated you don't believe in sportsmanship in a blowout is why I ended the argument with my mouth dropped.

Don't know what you're talking about here

1-D_FTW said:
As for #2, I know this: The shotgun requires little aiming, is way overpowered, and has too much ammo. The levels are also poorly designed for versus. But it's my belief that in a casual setting where fun is the purpose, frusmod's elimination of the assault rife takes away any run and gun gameplay. It plays up all the things boring about L4D.

So don't use FrusMod for casuals then. Use CEVO config, which keeps the tier 2 as default.

1-D_FTW said:
Maybe you can't put the genie back into the bottle. You guys know the maps too well to ever do something that's not optimal strategy. But it'd be nice to at least see you admit you can see why the more casual wouldn't like it.

Because in Vanilla L4D the scoring system is completely broken. Anyone can see that. At least with CEVO config, it's somewhat better. FrusMod fixes it completely.

GAF used to play vanilla L4D all the time before CEVO was discovered. And everyone who played back then bitched about the kits and how they were totally bullshit when combined with the scoring system. And this was before we knew optimal strategies and camping actually worked, aka back when we were casuals.
 

Twig

Banned
May 9, 2007
11,446
0
0
vertopci said:
Because in Vanilla L4D the scoring system is completely broken. Anyone can see that. At least with CEVO config, it's somewhat better. FrusMod fixes it completely.
Now why you gotta go and make me look a fool, son.
TheOneGuy said:
Actually I don't think they've ever said anything other than "we've played so much we need this to make it more challenging" which implies they're not casual and people who are not like them don't need it.

P.S., duders, check this BH finale out - I seriously don't know how we survived, almost everything went wrong BUT I FINALLY GOT IT YES http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWo-hglbFak (this is the longest and probably least interesting video I've posted so far though - BE WARNED)

(quality will suck for a bit though until youtube finishes processing it)
 

Raydeen

Member
Jan 21, 2009
2,222
0
0
UK, England
Botolf said:


I play a lot of coop, survivors almost always live through each map and make it to the escape vehicle. And that's fine, variety is good. In my view, Versus should typically involve a lot of survivor death, in a way to distance itself from coop, and also to make it more challenging for humans [1]. Versus should be tough for humans, but not as tough as Survival, where player death is universal and inescapable.

Yup. Played a server the other day that had Zombies that are 30% tougher and Smokers with near unlimited tounge reach....was a fucking warzone with most teams not making it past the 50% mark...which is how it should be. Only an elite team of pro-gamers should be able to make it to the end. Valve need to add an ELITE mode above EXPERT...and beef up the Witch to be 50% faster or something, she's just a non-event at the moment.
 

gregor7777

Banned
Jan 17, 2007
13,379
0
0
If you guys need a player and you see me on, invite me to one of these frusmod games.

I'd like to see the difference.

I'm not very good, but I think I can keep from completely fucking my team up.
 

vertopci

Member
Oct 12, 2006
3,329
0
0
Pittsburgh
gregor7777 said:
If you guys need a player and you see me on, invite me to one of these frusmod games.

I'd like to see the difference.

I'm not very good, but I think I can keep from completely fucking my team up.

You've already played one with us :lol

Guess it wasn't memorable enough for you to remember ;_;

edit: Anyone know if L4D2 is releasing at 12 AM EST time or PST?
 

Nabs

Member
Nov 3, 2006
37,676
1
1,045
i think he joined a stomp towards teh end :( :( :( not exactly a normal game

and i think 12am est, which means 7pm the next day.
 

vertopci

Member
Oct 12, 2006
3,329
0
0
Pittsburgh
Nabs said:
i think he joined a stomp towards teh end :( :( :( not exactly a normal game

and i think 12am est, which means 7pm the next day.

No, I'm pretty sure we played with him on my server a week or two ago.

edit: Oh valve time lulz
 

Red Scarlet

Member
Jan 29, 2005
23,348
3
0
I remember an interview from October saying 12AM eastern, but who knows.

If you guys have a spot for a Frusmod game, I'd like to give it a try instead of watch other people play it.
 

vertopci

Member
Oct 12, 2006
3,329
0
0
Pittsburgh
Red Scarlet said:
I remember an interview from October saying 12AM eastern, but who knows.

If you guys have a spot for a Frusmod game, I'd like to give it a try instead of watch other people play it.

Get 3 of your friends then go to #l4dscrim on gamesurge using IRC and ask for a scrim.
 

gregor7777

Banned
Jan 17, 2007
13,379
0
0
vertopci said:
You've already played one with us :lol

Guess it wasn't memorable enough for you to remember ;_;

edit: Anyone know if L4D2 is releasing at 12 AM EST time or PST?

:lol

Heh, yeah, I didn't pick up on any major differences. I figured it was just some server settings.

I played a full game with you all once I think. Came in at the end of another once too.