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The Official Religion Thread

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jdogmoney said:
Okay. Dude. I think it's pretty safe to assume you're a theist. That is, you believe in a god of some sort. You actively believe, yes? Anyone who does not believe in a god, no matter which one, is not a theist. We have a word for someone who is not a theist. It's "atheist".

I'm not just a theist. That's pretty generic, but I never said I was anything but.

BTW, the "next" post had to do with a different person chiming in on my stand. I read it now and it comes off as arrogant. That wasn't my intent. However...

jdogmoney said:
Look, this is silly. Arguing about semantics. It distracts from the point, which is that you're wrong about religious belief being a natural thing. Obeying the social hierarchy, that's natural. Listening to elders and other humans in positions of respect and power, that's natural.

Your link (editorial from a skeptic?:lol ) backs me up. I'm starting to think some are reading with an eye towards disproving me rather than educating me. I'm not using a theist version of atheism which would probably inclue agnostics. I'm using secular ones. You think?

You are still incorrect. Each time one of you bring the point out you make clear it's not about semantics. There would not have been a social hierarchy involving religius belief without an instinct toward belief. This has happened amongst independent cultures since the beginning of intelligent mankind. It doesn't take a theist to figure that out.

Those civilizations then made it a part of their societal hierarchy just like leadership, economics, & a legal system. They are still doing it. Whether a belief in the "supernatural" is true or not is irrelevant to whether it is a natural inclination. I don't believe 99.99% of religious thought out there, that doesn't stop others from gravitating toward it. I can't get it much simpler than that.

Even if the absence of belief meant atheism, it is foolish to thnk a baby would develope in that fashion. It's silly to think that religion just popped out of thin air and started indoctrinating everyone. It's absurd to think that people didn't start talking about rerligion until the system was in place.

My disagreeing with you is not a sign that I am trying to convert you. Everyone knows that won't work.
 
I hate how there is a label for everything.This is me =i believe that someone /something created me.He/she/it isnt asking me to kneel to him and worship him.Not ignorant.Not selfish..No ego.Just told me ' Yo sup,so yeah have fun in the world.Explore,learn,gain new experiences.Just dont do crazy stuff like killing others coz it aint nice =/.'Thats all i was asked.I dont understand all the hate and debate.DO whatever you wanna do.Dont do things you DONT want to do and at the same time in your head say'Damnit i dont wanan do this but im gonna go to heaven so BOOYA to everyone else.
bah i have a lot of things to say but so hard to express in forum.
 
JGS said:
My disagreeing with you is not a sign that I am trying to convert you. Everyone knows that won't work.

I'm not sure what this means.

[Also, my parsing of your quotes is mainly for readability, I'm trying to respond to each point you make.]

I think you're mistaken. If it were natural to be religious, does that make me and any other atheist unnatural? Yeah, it's natural to be paranoid, and to fear the unknown. Our would-be ancestors that didn't fear the unknown all got eaten by an allosaurus or something. I don't think that translates into a natural tendency towards religious belief, although I do grant that is was a factor.

Hopefully that joke won't distract from my point.
 
It is probably incorrect to call it natural anyway because at best it is a secondary or tertiary belief. Besides that, the opposite would be unnatural. You can probably express it in terms of probability much better. Of course I'll agree that people are likely to invent gods and religious/social structures in the absence of anything else (though the act of invention requires one to be born without a natural proclivity, so there is a lot of truth in the notion that we are atheists from birth).

Imagine a hypothetical scenario in which god is never mentioned or taught, and all of the natural mysteries like the beginning of the universe and human consciousness are completely answered. Is god still a likely belief? I don't know (though the more we know, the less likely god is invoked). It is hard to imagine that now. In fact, it is hard to imagine that a single person on the planet hasn't grown up being inundated with theology and questions of existence.
 
The other day Christians were handing out The Origin of Species Ray Comfort edition at my Uni (RMIT University) and I was genuinely surprised because I didn't think it would make it to Australia.
 
Jibril said:
You can safely ignore that. It doesn't mean anything.
And Anaxagaros is right. The alcohol itself isn't forbidden, intoxication is.
And Pig meat is forbidden. However, in dire circumstances, it's permissible to consume or use otherwise.

Interesting. Can you point out to me where it says this in the Quran or hadith. Thanks.
 
Aad said:
Interesting. Can you point out to me where it says this in the Quran or hadith. Thanks.

Something you will find very interesting is that wine itself was permissible for a long period of time in the early Islamic community, it was until a few years later that it had been prohibited.


2:219 They ask you (O Muhammad ) concerning alcoholic drink and gambling. Say: "In them is a great sin, and (some) benefit for men, but the sin of them is greater than their benefit."

The verse refers to wine, which is khamr in arabic. And the prophet elaborated on that stating in the hadith:
Muslim #4963, Narrated Abdullah ibn Umar "Allah's Messenger said: Every intoxicant is Khamr and every intoxicant is forbidden.

Khamr here refers to any type of intoxication affecting the soundness of the mind.
 
Himuro said:
I'm no longer Christian but my church still has me down for membership. Should I cancel my membership or just let it rot? Have you guys ever done this? Are you still members at your old churches even though you no longer attend regularly? I question this because I don't have the heart to tell them WHY I'm cancelling my membership, although they should have at least gotten some warning signs already that I'm no longer Christian and haven't been for a few years already? Thoughts?
Well you could always lie and say you're converting to judiaism or Catholicism, and would like to leave the church.
They wont be that upset as you'll still believe in God I reckon.
 
missbreedsiddx said:
I won't get into religion in general because my opinions are rather extreme in regards to my belief that religion is pure evil.

I will say however that whenever a sports player or actor/musician thanks god for their success I get the urge to stab them in the face. The idea that god has any interest in your stupid fucking game, shitty movie, or boring album is so incredibly egoistical and arrogant. God doesn't give two shits about you, your superbowl, your record sales, or your career.
And on a smaller level, God also doesn't care about your marriage, your new born child, your promotion, your good luck, or anything to do with you in general. How about you thank the people who deserve it, the people that suppprted you, loved you, helped you, trained you, taught you, and made you the person you are today. Stop thanking an entity that you don't even truly understand who cares nothing for you.
When your plane lands safely in a river after an emergency, its not a damn miracle of god, its a remarkable feat performed by a man who you completely dishonor by giving his credit to some make believe concept you have created in the vain attempt to understand something your stupid little mind could never hope to truly conceive.
In other words, shut the fuck up.

There, thats my rant for the week.


Perfect. You saved me the effort. Believe in yourselves people, not something made up to control the masses.
 
jdogmoney said:
I'm not sure what this means.

Some have insinuated that I'm making these statement to prove God some kind of way which is not the case. It is a waste of my time to prove a deity exists to people who don't believe it. My view holds regardless of how you worship- God, Buddha, Baal, Zeus, etc...

EDIT - Oops, I forgot to add that my view holds if you don't worship at all too.

jdogmoney said:
I think you're mistaken. If it were natural to be religious, does that make me and any other atheist unnatural? Yeah, it's natural to be paranoid, and to fear the unknown. Our would-be ancestors that didn't fear the unknown all got eaten by an allosaurus or something. I don't think that translates into a natural tendency towards religious belief, although I do grant that is was a factor.

Hopefully that joke won't distract from my point.


Good question.

I'm not saying that it is impossible to break from religious thought. In fact, I didn't say people are born with religious thought. I stated that as we get older than infants, we gravitate toward it. If you're an atheist, you could say we develop our imaginations. As "theist", one could say they are able to see validations that a particular deities existence.

Atheism is not unnatural because it's completely natural to use your brain to make independent decision which is all religious thought is too. What would be unnatural is thinking that a baby comes out of the womb with a disbelief/belief of anything.

In short, while it's natural to think about religious ideas, it's completely natural to dismiss them too.

ALL of that starts at a much later time than newborn. Now if we're using a new-fangled definition for atheism or, as some have commented, are simply going back to it's original usage, it's your word so do what you like. I don't have an argument for ignorance = atheism except disagreement. However for the common definition, the common usage, & the common understanding, the premise that a baby is atheist is wrong as yellow rain.

You are mistaken in thinking that religious belief needs to be one of paranoia. I'm not the one who thinks dictionaries are out to get me. I'm religious but am hardly paranoid. I'm religious and hate superstition. My reasons for belief are simple but never dispoven by anything an atheist (or anyone else) has thrown at me. So why switch teams?

There was another thread where Gaffers were saying they believe in something because of the beauty of the world and universe, so there's more to it than that. However, the unknown isn't a good answer too. Few animals outside of people know anything outside of instinct and that doesn't cause them to worship based on what they don't know.
 
JGS said:
There was another thread where Gaffers were saying they believe in something because of the beauty of the world and universe, so there's more to it than that. However, the unknown isn't a good answer too. Few animals outside of people know anything outside of instinct and that doesn't cause them to worship based on what they don't know.
In Islam, everything worships God but people don't understand their way of doing it.

Again, not trying to preach, just adding what I believe.
 
GT500 said:
In Islam, everything worships God but people don't understand their way of going it.

Again, not trying to preach, just adding what I believe.

This is the case with Judeo Cristian religions too at least in terms of non-human life.

However, their worship does not require acknowledgement. They do as instructed when needed (Noah's Ark, Jonah's fish, or the 2 she-bears that kill 40 kids in a village) which is different from people which are required to make a choice.

Animals can live and die just doing what they do- eating, pooping, & making more versions of themselves.
 
JGS said:
This is the case with Judeo Cristian religions too at least in terms of non-human life.

However, their worship does not require acknowledgement. They do as instructed when needed (Noah's Ark, Jonah's fish, or the 2 she-bears that kill 40 kids in a village) which is different from people which are required to make a choice.

Animals can live and die just doing what they do- eating, pooping, & making more versions of themselves.

islam and juedo cristian religion are related
 
Mgoblue201 said:
It is probably incorrect to call it natural anyway because at best it is a secondary or tertiary belief. Besides that, the opposite would be unnatural. You can probably express it in terms of probability much better. Of course I'll agree that people are likely to invent gods and religious/social structures in the absence of anything else (though the act of invention requires one to be born without a natural proclivity, so there is a lot of truth in the notion that we are atheists from birth).

The bolded part is all that I'm saying in the first place. Anything else is a misunderstanding that I'll assume is on my part. Can we all get along now?:lol

Mgoblue201 said:
Imagine a hypothetical scenario in which god is never mentioned or taught, and all of the natural mysteries like the beginning of the universe and human consciousness are completely answered. Is god still a likely belief? I don't know (though the more we know, the less likely god is invoked). It is hard to imagine that now. In fact, it is hard to imagine that a single person on the planet hasn't grown up being inundated with theology and questions of existence.

Questions of existence will always be here. Maybe that's what I should be saying instead of religious thought. As we get past babyhood, we wonder about our existence. Science does not do a good job of answering that which is why people are perfectly content with worshipping something since nothing better has come along in their eyes.

From a US standpoint, I say the same thing about atheism especially when you consider the fact that hardly any public school in the US teaches anything at all about religion and if they do it's from a cultural standpoint which is fine by me except for one thing which I'm not going to touch with a ten foot pole. Kids are taught in a vacuum most of their educated life.

This is the primary reason imo that people gravitate away from religion in the first place - from first grade on, they are only exposed to it at home and only for an hour or two then when the family goes to church. Plus they may be taught wrong.

Religious thought should be doomed, but even in secular lands, it is going to remain strong although less influential for some time. It's almost a paradox except that the bridge is people compromising on their religious beliefs to do what they want.

If you take the Genesis account as an example. Regardless of whether it was real or not, we should be able to agree that the writers were basing their writings on what they noticed. The first book of the Bible contains from the very beginning the idea that people who believed in God chose to not follow him.

If you go into the Mosaic Law, the same thing happens. They literally had death penalties, that would be carried out by men no less rather than lightening bolts from the sky, and people still chose their own way.

In fact, then entire Bible is basically about a small minority of people choosing to worship God over the majority who chose not to.

This means that people would stop invoking God long before they stopped believing in him. Atheism is simply an extension of that choice not to worship. I'm using the Bible since it's the most commonly known, not to steer people to it. It's the same story with most religions. At the end of the day though, it's a case of people thinking up a religion and people sticking to it or making up a new one...or not. None of it happens at infancy.

I'm rambling.
 
JGS said:
This is the case with Judeo Cristian religions too at least in terms of non-human life.

However, their worship does not require acknowledgement. They do as instructed when needed (Noah's Ark, Jonah's fish, or the 2 she-bears that kill 40 kids in a village) which is different from people which are required to make a choice.

Animals can live and die just doing what they do- eating, pooping, & making more versions of themselves.
Despite understanding their priases, animals follow their instincts because they actually don't have minds. Angels have minds but no desires so they can't disobey God. People, however, have both minds and desires and that's why we are tested. Because of that, we have the ability to believe or not, to obey or disobey... In other words, we have the choice.

For example, as a Muslim, I believe I must satisfy those desires in a proper way, for example, work to get money and food because theft is forbidden. How do I know what is a proper way? I follow what I believe. And actually, I wouldn't have followed it if it didn't make sense in my opinion.

Another example is, people can know what is good and what is bad by using their minds. I am sure even the worst thieves (who satisfy their desires in an improper way) are 100% sure that what they are doing is wrong even if they don't admit or say the opposite by words.

Ours minds is what make us God's greatest creation and there are many other reasons in Islam.

What I am trying to say here is religion isn't just beliefs and prayers, it is a lifestyle and morals. If you go and read the Hadith (what prophet Muhammad said or did), for example, you will find many parts of about mortgage, jobs, gifts, witnesses, marriage, neighbors...etc. And as for beliefs, I think it is injustice not to worship God who created me. It is injustice to associate others with God or not to worship God at all. And of course, I am expecting my reward in the afterlife.

My point? This makes sense to me. This is what makes the world a beautiful place in my opinion. Believe in whatever you want to believe. Everyone has his reasons.
 
JGS said:
The bolded part is all that I'm saying in the first place. Anything else is a misunderstanding that I'll assume is on my part. Can we all get along now?:lol
I generally think that labels only work if the individual actively explores the implications of that label - they should not be enforced - but if we were to assign labels, then lack of belief would certainly fit better, even if it is through ignorance. But to call that atheism is just a technicality, and in order to apply that practically, you'd probably have to call your cat an atheist (Jerry Coyne would probably approve of that). I think that's what you're saying, though.

Anyway, I suppose that in a future world where we could totally explain how consciousness works, people would still think that there is an afterlife and a soul. But I hope that as we begin to answer the really tough questions, people would be less likely to turn toward religion for answers. Science vs. religion is a false dichotomy too (science could just mean a method of skepticism and anti-authority, but that's merely a mode of thinking). Of course science can't answer the question of aesthetic values. It can't define us. Even scientists know that. They care just as much about those "undefinable things" in the human experience as much as anybody.

Religion is cultural (even without religion, people will probably turn to mystical bullshit). Even if someone converts, is one more likely in America to convert to Islam or Christianity? How about in Iran? Most people don't make fully aware decisions. Having once been religious, I can say that it is pretty much the religious MO to act like one has superior knowledge. It is the only way possible to convince oneself that the evidence is so overwhelming that rejection of that evidence is grounds for eternal punishment.

It's like Paul saying that men are without excuse. But that's bullshit. Thousands of different cultures have drawn thousands of different conclusions about the nature of existence just by the mere act of observation. It is reaching the point where the nonbeliever is more than the intellectual equal to the religious man. In fact, if one is adept enough at arguing, all of the inconsistencies and double speak of religion can be laid bare. And I'd be damned if godly men got into the good graces of god by believing such a delusion as creationism. If liars for Jesus can somehow be the epitome of godliness, then how can any of us be sure of what morality truly is?

I'm just merely saying that people don't necessarily make the right choices for whatever reason. It's a lot more complex than the believer/nonbeliever dichotomy that religion makes it out to be. People make the same bad choices based on irrationality or limited knowledge, whether they are religious or not religious. There is no god imparting divine knowledge so that one can easily say follow this or face the wrath of god. Anyway, I don't know where this is going, but I find it interesting.

GT500 said:
Despite understanding their priases, animals follow their instincts because they actually don't have minds. Angels have minds but no desires so they can't disobey God. People, however, have both minds and desires and that's why we are tested. Because of that, we have the ability to believe or not, to obey or disobey... In other words, we have the choice.
Are you kidding? It has been proven that some animals can think in abstract terms. Some of them probably have more emotional depth than some humans (certainly children). Some of them can certainly do things like mourn the dead and do heroic acts at the risk to their own lives. Human ancestors probably had limited yet developing cultures. All of these show brains that do more than simply react to instincts like some bacteria. They show the capacity for advanced thought.

See also my response to JGS about choice. And you have three outstanding posts of mine which you have yet to respond to.
 
Himuro said:
More to be found here

Interesting. I actually find the belief in evolution for the sake of debunking creationism is reflexively prohibitive, intellectually.

That is to say, there is too much focus on interrogating one and not the other. Alas, another reason why I choose the humanities.
 
cashman said:
You managed to get a symbol taoism, but not one for hinduism? This is madness!

Indeed. Madness!

Its this BTW-

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I was almost going to make a thread for this, then I remembered this one...

There's this girl at school who is a Christadelphian. She's one of the few, if not the only fully religious people in my school, and sometimes she says things that cause arguments. One memorable case was when she made a Facebook status slighting evolution that resulted in a 200 comment thread of argument/debate between her and some people who go to her church and about 5 guys from school. But anyway, the most shocking thing is what has just come out, something I never realised about her and her faith.

Christadelphians are not allowed to vote. She suddenly came out with that, saying she couldn't for instance vote Labour, because then if the Conservatives won she would have been restricting God's will. Here is the link she gave explaining it: Question Box: Why don't disciples of Christ vote?

Personally I don't see the logic in this at all, by not voting surely you are restricting the ways God's will can be implemented. Maybe God's plan was for you to vote against the winner so that they wouldn't win by a landslide, or to teach you that you won't always be in the majority.

It doesn't surprise me that much though, she in the past once said 'Has it ever occurred to you that science could all just be a lie' when arguing that religion explained the world better. But for a religion to explicitly forbid democracy seems a bit far.
 
So I've been thinking about the whole Naoh story and how he managed to get all animals on a ship and survive a huge flood, because when I first heard it I was 7 years old and I thought it was a fictional story, till I just read yesterday it's in the Bible and Quran. And I can't help but think how could animals exsists in a very early time, shouldn't there be dinosaurs not animals by the time of Naoh ?
 
RedShift said:
Personally I don't see the logic in this at all, by not voting surely you are restricting the ways God's will can be implemented. Maybe God's plan was for you to vote against the winner so that they wouldn't win by a landslide, or to teach you that you won't always be in the majority.

It doesn't surprise me that much though, she in the past once said 'Has it ever occurred to you that science could all just be a lie' when arguing that religion explained the world better. But for a religion to explicitly forbid democracy seems a bit far.

I can think of a few reasons although I have no idea what that religion is.

1. I'm not sure why democracy would be God's political party of choice. Democracy specifically allows other religions to worship freely next to God who exacts exclusive devotion. The only one he should be interested in (per Scripture) would be one where he's running things, not us puny humans.

2. All governments are doomed to fail since they are either temporary or unsustainable over the long haul. In other words, the vote could be pointless in the big picture.

3. A vote for one thing could put you at odds with a fellow believer that stands for something else. It's better to be unified in belief that apart on political agendas.
 
Does anyone else think the Muslim x Christian x Jew three-way cage match is utterly ridiculous for the following reason - IT'S THE EXACT SAME GOD BEHIND ALL THREE. Why am I the only one who notices this?
 
I NEED SCISSORS said:
Does anyone else think the Muslim x Christian x Jew three-way cage match is utterly ridiculous for the following reason - IT'S THE EXACT SAME GOD BEHIND ALL THREE. Why am I the only one who notices this?

The Christian believes that Jesus Christ is God incarnate. The Muslim and Jew do not. How is that the exact same God?
 
I NEED SCISSORS said:
Does anyone else think the Muslim x Christian x Jew three-way cage match is utterly ridiculous for the following reason - IT'S THE EXACT SAME GOD BEHIND ALL THREE. Why am I the only one who notices this?

Same God does not mean same beliefs, thus someone is wrong...or so the accusations go.

This makes sense considering that just because 3 groups worship the same God, it does not mean the same God accepts all 3 forms of worship.
 
DeusTrinitas said:
The Christian believes that Jesus Christ is God incarnate. The Muslim and Jew do not. How is that the exact same God?

Many Christians believe Jesus is God's son rather than God himself, but still it's true the belief are way too different to be considered the same.
 
Karram said:
So I've been thinking about the whole Naoh story and how he managed to get all animals on a ship and survive a huge flood, because when I first heard it I was 7 years old and I thought it was a fictional story, till I just read yesterday it's in the Bible and Quran. And I can't help but think how could animals exsists in a very early time, shouldn't there be dinosaurs not animals by the time of Naoh ?
The biblical flood took place around 2300 BC. Most of what we see today in the animal kingdom existed during that time as well. So yeah, no dinosaurs.

Also, here's a funny video explaining why the flood story is ridiculous.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I225Vcs3X0g
 
JGS said:
Many Christians believe Jesus is God's son rather than God himself, but still it's true the belief are way too different to be considered the same.

Guess that depends on your definition of "Christian" then. At the First Council of Nicea in A.D. 325, they declared Jesus Christ to be homoousios with the Father, i.e. he was fully God because he was of the same substance.
 
wooo my city made the OP, that smut for smut thing was pretty funny. Some co-workers of mine didn't see the funny tho. :lol
 
DeusTrinitas said:
The Christian believes that Jesus Christ is God incarnate. The Muslim and Jew do not. How is that the exact same God?

They are all called "Abrahamic" religions for the very reason that they worship the same God. It's the practices and interpretation of prophecy that are the big difference, but even they share many similarities - most importantly however, is that these factors in themselves do not stop the God from being the same one.

In fact, even the Bible and Qur'an themselves imply that they are the same. The parting of the brothers in the Bible, one discovering Judiasm and one discovering Islam; and also the Qur'an recognising Judiasm and Chrstianity as the only other 'valid faiths', pretty much seals the deal for me.

An interesting Qur'an quote in that link:

And nearest among them in love
To the Believers wilt thou
Find those who say, [789]
"We are Christians":
Because amongst these are
Men devoted to learning [790]
And men who have renounced
The world, and they
Are not arrogant.


"[789] The meaning is not that they merely call themselves Christians, but that they are such sincere Christians that they appreciate Muslim virtues, as did the Abyssinians to whom Muslim refugees went during the persecution in Mecca. They would say: "It is true we are Christians, but we understand your point of view, and we know you are good men." They are Muslims at heart, whatever their label may be."

Now why would they say this if they weren't the same? Surely every non-Muslim, or non-Jew, or non-Christian should be sent to auto-Hell otherwise?

DeusTrinitas said:
Guess that depends on your definition of "Christian" then. At the First Council of Nicea in A.D. 325, they declared Jesus Christ to be homoousios with the Father, i.e. he was fully God because he was of the same substance.

Yes.. a council decided it. IE, it is not the word of God himself. This is why Islam strictly forbids any changing of the Qur'an text.
 
I know that most wont care and the mormons here will just dismiss this. But this is fascinating.

Standford did a study using linguistic techniques to see if the book of mormon was written by multiple authors and also comparing the writing to people close to Joseph Smith to the book of mormon. BYU did a similar study years ago and touted that they were over 90% sure that Joseph Smith didn't write the book of mormon. This study also shows that but also shows that there is a high probability that it was written by Sidney Rigdon and Oliver Cowdery (two of founding members). People have theorized about this, and this study certainly helps that argument and really changes the way some will look at Mormon history.

http://www.stanford.edu/~mjockers/cgi-bin/drupal/node/41
 
DeusTrinitas said:
The Christian believes that Jesus Christ is God incarnate. The Muslim and Jew do not. How is that the exact same God?
wait what? I was raised in a christian house and never once was taught that Christ was God. God was the father Christ was the son.
 
I NEED SCISSORS said:
They are all called "Abrahamic" religions for the very reason that they worship the same God. It's the practices and interpretation of prophecy that are the big difference, but even they share many similarities - most importantly however, is that these factors in themselves do not stop the God from being the same one.

In fact, even the Bible and Qur'an themselves imply that they are the same. The parting of the brothers in the Bible, one discovering Judiasm and one discovering Islam; and also the Qur'an recognising Judiasm and Chrstianity as the only other 'valid faiths', pretty much seals the deal for me.

An interesting Qur'an quote in that link:

And nearest among them in love
To the Believers wilt thou
Find those who say, [789]
"We are Christians":
Because amongst these are
Men devoted to learning [790]
And men who have renounced
The world, and they
Are not arrogant.


"[789] The meaning is not that they merely call themselves Christians, but that they are such sincere Christians that they appreciate Muslim virtues, as did the Abyssinians to whom Muslim refugees went during the persecution in Mecca. They would say: "It is true we are Christians, but we understand your point of view, and we know you are good men." They are Muslims at heart, whatever their label may be."

Now why would they say this if they weren't the same? Surely every non-Muslim, or non-Jew, or non-Christian should be sent to auto-Hell otherwise?

Yes.. a council decided it. IE, it is not the word of God himself. This is why Islam strictly forbids any changing of the Qur'an text.

You are quoting from the Qur'an, so that represents a Muslim point of view. Perhaps most Muslims believe that they are worshiping the same God. I don't know. From the standpoint of most evangelical Christians, however, I sincerely doubt that a majority of them would agree that the Christian God and the Muslim God are one and the same.

And as for the council, there are plenty of passages in the New Testament indicating that Jesus Christ was fully God. The council simply affirmed a belief that was prevalent in the nearly 300 years between Christ's resurrection and the Council of Nicea.
 
DeusTrinitas said:
Guess that depends on your definition of "Christian" then. At the First Council of Nicea in A.D. 325, they declared Jesus Christ to be homoousios with the Father, i.e. he was fully God because he was of the same substance.

Are you saying that Christianity started at Nicea? If one is a Christian, wouldn't that mean followowing Christ? Otherwise, we're Niceans.

No disrespect, but I don't put a lot of weight into a religio-political meeting used to merge disparate beliefs of several customs into one.
 
Zeke said:
wait what? I was raised in a christian house and never once was taught that Christ was God. God was the father Christ was the son.
Pssh. You weren't raised in a TRUE Christian household.
35n0o45.jpg



Edit: The bible doesn't really mention the trinity. So yeah, it's pretty confusing and it makes no logical sense at all.
 
JGS said:
Are you saying that Christianity started at Nicea? If one is a Christian, wouldn't that mean followowing Christ? Otherwise, we're Niceans.

No disrespect, but I don't put a lot of weight into a religio-political meeting used to merge disparate beliefs of several customs into one.

No, I'm not saying that at all. Like I said, at Nicea they simply affirmed the already widely-held belief that Jesus Christ was fully God.
 
Zeke said:
wait what? I was raised in a christian house and never once was taught that Christ was God. God was the father Christ was the son.

Exactly, that's what I was raised to believe as well.

I don't really feel comfortable talking about my religious beliefs, but here goes: i'm a Christian, although not exactly a serious one. I don't go to Church, and imagine the powers that be as sort of Dudebro-esque figures who you discuss your shit with. I believe in God, simply because I think something must have created all of this. But I also believe in science as well, evolution and the big bang theory (it is my opinion that God was probably a catalyst who kick started the whole process and the 7 days thing is not to be taken literally). I accept that Jesus is the son of God and the one we should follow, but I also completely respect Islam as well and recognise what they believe. Hell, I even respect the views of atheists too because frankly it's their decision and I don't expect everyone to believe all this, and the arguments they put forth are logical and compelling (hey, at least it isn't fucking Xenu-level nuclear bomb space ship ridiculousness).

It just drives me fucking crazy seeing all the terrorism, bigotry and general fucking idiocy surrounding these three religions; but I guess it's simply because i'm just too goddam open minded to accept that ONE thing and only ONE thing is true. After all, no ones knows for sure who is 'right', and at least if I make the 'wrong' choice I may still get to Heaven thanks to being endowed with such great religious knowledge. It's a win-win situation for me, frankly.

DeusTrinitas said:
From the standpoint of most evangelical Christians, however, I sincerely doubt that a majority of them would agree that the Christian God and the Muslim God are one and the same.

I'll be blunt - I don't really care about what they think. I'll get to Heaven on my own terms. I'm just trying to figure out why humanity is so fucking retarded when it comes to religious clashing.
 
DeusTrinitas said:
You are quoting from the Qur'an, so that represents a Muslim point of view. Perhaps most Muslims believe that they are worshiping the same God. I don't know. From the standpoint of most evangelical Christians, however, I sincerely doubt that a majority of them would agree that the Christian God and the Muslim God are one and the same.

Perhaps those evangelicals would not.. but scholarship would say they are all worshipping the same God because they all spring from the same tradition. They all refer to the monotheism of Abraham, so in that sense they claim to worship the same god as described by a single individual.

Distant monotheisms would likely gel together into both speaking of one god anyway... but here we have two that actually source the same founder... yeah they worship the same god!

DeusTrinitas said:
And as for the council, there are plenty of passages in the New Testament indicating that Jesus Christ was fully God. The council simply affirmed a belief that was prevalent in the nearly 300 years between Christ's resurrection and the Council of Nicea.

There were plenty of differing viewpoints on the subject of whether Christ was man or God, and the holy trinity was only decided at the Council of Nicea by those in power.
 
DeusTrinitas said:
No, I'm not saying that at all. Like I said, at Nicea they simply affirmed the already widely-held belief that Jesus Christ was fully God.

I'm not doubting that was the widely held belief by that time. I doubt that was the original intent of Christianity which is what's most important.

Christianity was never meant to be the popular choice, just the correct one. It wasn't necessary to come to an agreement on the matter since the matter was already settled at the founding of the Christian church much earlier.

Nicea was a growth move imo and it definitely succeeded at that.
 
You just gotta love how Christianity had its doctrine decided upon and its modern day popularity largely due to.... a Roman Emperor.

God works in mysterious ways.
 
BocoDragon said:
You just gotta love how Christianity had its doctrine decided upon and its modern day popularity largely due to.... a Roman Emperor.

God works in mysterious ways.

It's doctrine wasn't decided on by Rome since it existed before Rome even remotely cared.

However, Rome certainly decided that original Christian doctrine was not it's cup of tea. Faith was traded for market share and a "peaceful" empire.
 
JGS said:
It's doctrine wasn't decided on by Rome since it existed before Rome even remotely cared.
They called a council to settle issues of dispute within the religion once and for all... to be forever passed down as unerrant Christian doctrine. That doesn't sound like doctrine being decided upon by the Emperor to you?
 
BocoDragon said:
They called a council to settle issues of dispute within the religion once and for all... to be forever passed down as unerrant Christian doctrine. That doesn't sound like doctrine being decided upon by the Emperor to you?

You didn't read what i said. Catholic doctrine maybe. Christian Doctrine - no way.

Men don't have the ability to make unerrant doctrine in contrast to what was already taught. Even if Chrstianity was started completely by men, other men can't come along and change it and decide that it is unerrant.

I could do that with the LOTR trilogy but make everyone Smurfs if that was the case. As long as more books were sold than Tolkiens, mine would be the true LOTR story.

What Rome does and what Christians taught prior to Nicea have nothing to do with each other except that Rome made it so. I don't follow Rome...
 
BocoDragon said:
Perhaps those evangelicals would not.. but scholarship would say they are all worshipping the same God because they all spring from the same tradition. They all refer to the monotheism of Abraham, so in that sense they claim to worship the same god as described by a single individual.

Distant monotheisms would likely gel together into both speaking of one god anyway... but here we have two that actually source the same founder... yeah they worship the same god!

There were plenty of differing viewpoints on the subject of whether Christ was man or God, and the holy trinity was only decided at the Council of Nicea by those in power.

I don't disagree that secular scholars would say they are all worshiping the same God for the precise reason you mention. Muslim scholars might argue the same. Jewish scholars, however, will not concede this as won't most evangelical Christian scholars. That said, Jewish scholars and evangelical Christian scholars will agree that all three faiths historically go back to the monotheism of Abraham.

In other words, the differences are theological, not historical.
 
To remark on what a few posts upthread vaguely touched on, a repeated sentiment I notice is that the good atheist seems to feel a responsibility to say "hopefully some day people will stop believing in stupid shit, but that probably won't happen."

The atheist who says this or similar doesn't seem to realize that it is pretty arrogant. They are dismissing a wide swath of how human beings work as "stupid shit" without even really understanding it.

It's like this.

Atheist goes up to religions person. Atheist tells religions person that god does not exist, nature is nature, their silly superstitions have no basis in fact, and that really, he is just trying to help. Religions person looks at atheist, feels unsatisfied by being told that there is no god, even if he does not know why, and turns away. Atheist throws his hands up and screams "people are idiots! Most will never understand the truth and continue to believe in stupid things!"

The failure that has just happened here is not that people are too stupid to understand what the atheist is saying. Some may be too uneducated at the moment to understand the implications of what he says and thus feel that their religious explanations are more "sensible" since they already understand those and don't understand this science language. But education levels actually have little to do with how many people reject atheists when they come up for yet another round of "you're all being silly".

What is actually going on is that atheists and scientists and materialists are offering answers to questions. And religious or mystical people look at these answers and find them unsatisfying, so they're biased towards not believing them - or not believing they are the whole, complete answer - regardless of how inescapably self sufficient the answers look from the perspective of the atheist. The real problem is that the atheist answers are not dealing with why people ask the questions in the first place. The answer does not negate the need. Now the atheist, typically, may claim that the reason why people are unsatisfied by their rational materialist answers is simply because people are vain. They want there to be a god, want there to be angels, demons, souls, magic, etc. This in itself is a true observation. The problem and the failure to communicate is based on the atheist curling is lip up and sneering at this fact of human psychology.

It's like a man comes up to you and says you should only eat chocolate ice cream because the preference for strawberry ice cream is foolish and stupid and you are foolish and stupid for having this desire. if you like strawberry icecream, no amount of rationalization that chocolate is superior is going to overcome the fact that the guy is a fucking asshole.

Atheists, thinking they have found the magic cure for humanity's ills, do not realize that the "vanity" that causes human beings to create mystical structures is not a negative trait to be sliced out. It has resulted in human beings a whole doing terrible things. But every aspect of human psychology has resulted in human beings doing terrible things.

The "religious impulse" is in large part the need for human beings to narratize their lives and the world around them. It's linked to the artistic impulse. What rationalists are failing to do is to work towards recontextualizing the religious and mystical impulse instead of just going around screaming that it stupid.

A lot of people already naturally do this as an intuitive solution to the issue. These are the christians, for instance, who believe in SCIENCE! and evolution and whatever else, but also believe in "god" or the equivalent in a more abstract way than the more literal biblical interpretations of those who are merely uneducated and/or superstitious. What would be a far more useful conversation would be for the atheist or the rational crusader to sit down with such people and begin talking about how their "mystical" beliefs do not have to be framed in a way that causes a conflict with a scientific understanding of the world. The atheist /could/ offer that mystical frameworks can be metaphors and models that people use to create narratives about life or their interactions with reality. Actual conversation and exchange of ideas could happen. (And once in a while, actually does.) But usually this does not happen; the atheist just says "I feel sorry for you, perhaps some day people will not believe stupid things."

Many atheist crusaders of course, will take the easy way out and construct a popular atheist straw man - they will just point to some crowd of screaming fanatics on television who are raging about evolution being taught in school and sneer "See? See? These stupid ideas are terrible and evil. We must stamp them out!" This of course, does nothing for the very large number of people who are not screaming fanatics and are quite reasonable, and ALREADY understand and accept what SCIENCE! says. It is these people with whom greater understanding of the human need and process of mysticism could be attained, but instead, they are merely being told they are stupid.

People will always believe "stupid things" because these things are not stupid things. They're core to how the human mind works. The scientist may say "but I do not believe these stupid things! Why have I no need of them!" That's because the scientist /has/ his religion and his shrine, his forms, his taboos, his god, and his pantheon. He just doesn't realize what his own brain has latched onto to fill the necessary roles.

The atheist "movement" has a serious problem; it is very popular especially to young guys on the Internet because it just lets them feel that science has their back when they tell all these people who have silly ideas that they're stupid stupid stupid. But any real progress towards human truth is being swept off the table in the war against organized religion's insanity.
 
Kaijima said:
To remark on what a few posts upthread vaguely touched on, a repeated sentiment I notice is that the good atheist seems to feel a responsibility to say "hopefully some day people will stop believing in stupid shit, but that probably won't happen."

The atheist who says this or similar doesn't seem to realize that it is pretty arrogant. They are dismissing a wide swath of how human beings work as "stupid shit" without even really understanding it.

It's like this.

Atheist goes up to religions person. Atheist tells religions person that god does not exist, nature is nature, their silly superstitions have no basis in fact, and that really, he is just trying to help. Religions person looks at atheist, feels unsatisfied by being told that there is no god, even if he does not know why, and turns away. Atheist throws his hands up and screams "people are idiots! Most will never understand the truth and continue to believe in stupid things!"

The failure that has just happened here is not that people are too stupid to understand what the atheist is saying. Some may be too uneducated at the moment to understand the implications of what he says and thus feel that their religious explanations are more "sensible" since they already understand those and don't understand this science language. But education levels actually have little to do with how many people reject atheists when they come up for yet another round of "you're all being silly".

What is actually going on is that atheists and scientists and materialists are offering answers to questions. And religious or mystical people look at these answers and find them unsatisfying, so they're biased towards not believing them - or not believing they are the whole, complete answer - regardless of how inescapably self sufficient the answers look from the perspective of the atheist. The real problem is that the atheist answers are not dealing with why people ask the questions in the first place. The answer does not negate the need. Now the atheist, typically, may claim that the reason why people are unsatisfied by their rational materialist answers is simply because people are vain. They want there to be a god, want there to be angels, demons, souls, magic, etc. This in itself is a true observation. The problem and the failure to communicate is based on the atheist curling is lip up and sneering at this fact of human psychology.

It's like a man comes up to you and says you should only eat chocolate ice cream because the preference for strawberry ice cream is foolish and stupid and you are foolish and stupid for having this desire. if you like strawberry icecream, no amount of rationalization that chocolate is superior is going to overcome the fact that the guy is a fucking asshole.

Atheists, thinking they have found the magic cure for humanity's ills, do not realize that the "vanity" that causes human beings to create mystical structures is not a negative trait to be sliced out. It has resulted in human beings a whole doing terrible things. But every aspect of human psychology has resulted in human beings doing terrible things.

The "religious impulse" is in large part the need for human beings to narratize their lives and the world around them. It's linked to the artistic impulse. What rationalists are failing to do is to work towards recontextualizing the religious and mystical impulse instead of just going around screaming that it stupid.

A lot of people already naturally do this as an intuitive solution to the issue. These are the christians, for instance, who believe in SCIENCE! and evolution and whatever else, but also believe in "god" or the equivalent in a more abstract way than the more literal biblical interpretations of those who are merely uneducated and/or superstitious. What would be a far more useful conversation would be for the atheist or the rational crusader to sit down with such people and begin talking about how their "mystical" beliefs do not have to be framed in a way that causes a conflict with a scientific understanding of the world. The atheist /could/ offer that mystical frameworks can be metaphors and models that people use to create narratives about life or their interactions with reality. Actual conversation and exchange of ideas could happen. (And once in a while, actually does.) But usually this does not happen; the atheist just says "I feel sorry for you, perhaps some day people will not believe stupid things."

Many atheist crusaders of course, will take the easy way out and construct a popular atheist straw man - they will just point to some crowd of screaming fanatics on television who are raging about evolution being taught in school and sneer "See? See? These stupid ideas are terrible and evil. We must stamp them out!" This of course, does nothing for the very large number of people who are not screaming fanatics and are quite reasonable, and ALREADY understand and accept what SCIENCE! says. It is these people with whom greater understanding of the human need and process of mysticism could be attained, but instead, they are merely being told they are stupid.

People will always believe "stupid things" because these things are not stupid things. They're core to how the human mind works. The scientist may say "but I do not believe these stupid things! Why have I no need of them!" That's because the scientist /has/ his religion and his shrine, his forms, his taboos, his god, and his pantheon. He just doesn't realize what his own brain has latched onto to fill the necessary roles.

The atheist "movement" has a serious problem; it is very popular especially to young guys on the Internet because it just lets them feel that science has their back when they tell all these people who have silly ideas that they're stupid stupid stupid. But any real progress towards human truth is being swept off the table in the war against organized religion's insanity.

If I were speaking from a purely atheistic standpoint, I would say you've hit on something here. Great insight. I especially appreciate what I put in bold from your post. However, for the sake of argument, if one religion is indeed correct, how much of what you said is dismantled by that?
 
I don't think you guys understand how little most atheists care. I can understand why you'd think there was some 'Us Vs. Them' thing going on if your only contact with atheists comes through the internet though.

Without God. That's all it means. Not 'Mr I Believe In Science And Love Converting Religious People'.

Try this for starters: http://www.investigatingatheism.info/definition.html

Otherwise you're no better than the people that assume all religious people are fundies.
 
Kaijima said:
To remark on what a few posts upthread vaguely touched on, a repeated sentiment I notice is that the good atheist seems to feel a responsibility to say "hopefully some day people will stop believing in stupid shit, but that probably won't happen."

A good Atheist lets others believe whatever they want and practice any religion, the same courtesy that we expect from the people of various religions.
 
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