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[EzLink]

So what happened to make you try drugs? That's typically not the type of thing I imagine a devout Christian doing. :lol

I think it was a combination of things. I remember after christmas break was over that year and I resumed college I kinda got busy and sorta stopped reading my bible. Not immersing myself in it daily, i sort of gradually faded for a couple months (but i had done that many times before, and always came back so i figured it was just another phase). Then in february my friends got me to trip on dextromethorphan. I felt okay about doing it because I had always wanted to try drugs, but at that time i still believed all the bullshit D.A.R.E. had pushed onto me. But many of my friends had been dexing regularly for over a year and didn't have any bad permanent effects. I researched it, decided it was safe enough to try, and I fucking loved it.

But then I felt guilty. Horrendously guilty. So I didn't do it again for a while. It was around that time that my friend brought me some alcohol and pressured me into drinking it. I didn't get drunk, but still, it was a matter of taking that first step. Thinking underage drinking was morally wrong my whole life, after that first shot it was like i had kinda crossed a line. And I saw it wasn't that huge of a deal.

Then a few weeks later I had my first experience with a girl (just making out, and something I really regret now because I was so desperate that I threw my first kiss experience away on an unattractive fat whale). After that I dexed one more time (this all happened in march). Then more half assing my religion (i.e. just praying my nightly prayers basically) until june, when i was introduced to the wonders of marijuana. Shit. I loved it (and still do! :lol) But I got obsessed with it. Looking back, maybe it was to fill the void that my now empty religion had left me with. So I just didn't think about it much over the summer. I just smoked a lot and drank a lot and had the first summer of my life that I actually enjoyed (mainly because I stopped having self esteem issues around that time. Perhaps the drugs helped with that? I'm not sure). Then after summer I started thinking about how unjust strict christianity is. I was also a pretty strict calvanist, and I still think that that is what the bible teaches which is part of why its so hard for me to go back to. I don't just want to ignore the parts I don't like, that's not being honest with myself. But at the same time, I find calvinist to be such absolute bullshit that it usually just angers me when I think about it. I struggled with calvinism when I was a christian, but I just chalked it up to "God knows best, just gotta trust him". After my months of drugs/ignoring my religion, when I started thinking about calvinism again I was just like "goddam it this is such unjust bullshit". I hate the idea that God somehow loves everyone equally, yet only chooses a few to not rot in hell forever. Even without calvinism now the bible is hard for me to not get mad at. Because it still isn't fair for people who haven't heard of jesus, or people whose upbringing and culture don't have christianity as the dominant religion. There are so many people of different faiths, and even of no faith, that are doing their best and are great people. I can't reconcile in my mind that god somehow has "infinite love" for them yet sitll will damn them to hell when it really isn't their fault

hmm, I didn't mean to type that much. Regardless, it kinda felt good typing it all out

so yeah, I'd love to go back. I wish I could. But now everytime I see a bad thing happen I'm just so damn cynical. Like Haiti. All the horrific stuff that happened. That the God of the Bible could have stopped. But he didn't. Which is fine in a way, except also according to the Bible they will probably all end up in hell. And yet again, from this same bible, we are told to believe God still has infinite love for them

So many seeming contradictions that I can't get my head around

I went to church again for the first time today in months and I just kept wishing I could go back to how things were. Seeing all the people believe so easily, it makes me so jealous

 

[EzLink]

EzLink, you asked what religion I am? I was originally a Christian but I discarded my Christianity in college. Broken because I was without faith (at that point I would have considered my agnostic) I searched and searched for a religion, only because it felt right. So I arrived at Islam and I thought that would probably help me fill my spiritual gap, but that didn't work out for various reasons either. Now I'm atheist. I don't think I'll ever pursue religion ever again, but as hell respect and love researching it.

Yeah, I edited it out though cuz I was gonna put it in my next reply since you had already read my original post (that I then edited the question into, if that makes sense)

Man, it sounds like we are pretty similar. Used to be christian, gave it up in college. Hard to cope without faith. Now I'm considering buddhism, you went to islam.

How do you deal with the the seemingly meaningless of life? We life, die, and then the end. And all the horrible people on earth go unpunished :/

Thinking about stuff like that makes me want to do drugs just to forget about how awful everything is for a few hours. Seriously my mind can't keep handling this constant weight of misery about how pointless and also evil humanity is

 

[RustyNails]

Incorrect. We cannot predict the future so far ahead to assume anything about humanity being around when the sun "dies" (which in itself is not as straight forward as a simple instant change in state). Meaning you cannot say whether man will probably or probably not perish at that time.

Going slightly OT, but there are lot more pressing scenarios on Earth than Sun dying out

1) Over population
2) Water shortage
3) Asteroid/meteor strike
4) Solar storm
5) Catastrophic natural disaster

Only way I can see the Sun being threat is through a freak activity in the Sun that makes its life way shorter. What annoys me is that we still don't have an international space agency on the scale of NASA. It costs us billions to put a clunky tin in orbit called International space station...I don't see pinwheel space stations happening anytime soon at least, not in my lifetime.

 

[Atramental]

It's funny that I've only been an atheist for 4 months yet I still haven't drank any alcohol nor done any drugs :lol

Spoiler

or had sex with any girls. ;_;

 

[EzLink]

Actually, life without religion has given my life more meaning. Which is something that has surprised me. I do things not because someone's watching me, but because I feel it's right. I live life by own philosophy and this gives me power.

Also this puts beauty into life. It makes me appreciate what we have a lot more. I've had a lot of progress - emotionally, socially, physically, mentally - since accepting my absence of faith, and this allows me to savor the now moreso than what may be.

Think of it this way, the chances of us existing are so slim. I should just be happy to be here period, right?

Don't worry about the evil aspects of humanity. Everything's not so black and white. There's a lot of good in humanity as well.

I've progressed a ton too as far as being able to think for myself, and yes, it is liberating and nice. But I still feel its meaningless. It's basically just "living for the moment", which sucks because I am very aware of how temporary that moment is. So seriously, whats the point? Just to enjoy the very few parts of life that don't suck? Whoopdee doo

There is a lot of good in humanity but not having religion to rely on, it makes the evil shit worse. Not only do the evil people go unpunished, but they also ruin the only life the victim will ever get :/

EDIT: Groovy, first post on new page. Reposting my original question about buddhism because this is the only place I can think of to get advice on good book!

My friend has been telling me about Buddhism. Apart from reincarnation, I really like most of what he's told me about it. I like the focus on individual growth and harmony. I like how its flexible. I like how there isn't a god that requires you to worship in a specific way. In fact, apart from reincarnation, it doesn't seem like a religion at all. It seems more like a philosophy

So is there any one book that would be easy to read and understand yet still really informational on the topic for someone like me? I don't want to pour through all the sutras and shit. I just want a concise overview that hits on all the major tenets and practices. Not necessarily from an unbiased author either. Basically I just want to explore it more

Or maybe there is a buddhism thread already on GAF? For some reason I thought I remembered seeing one a long time ago but I couldn't find it on google search

Also maybe it could help me get back to christianity, which i really honestly wish I could be a part of again. Maybe it will help me think differently or something. And I know its pretty easy to incorporate buddhist philosophy with other religions

Thanks GAF!

 

[Movement]

It's funny that I've only been an atheist for 4 months yet I still haven't drank any alcohol nor done any drugs :lol or had sex with any girls. ;_;

But you have had sex?

Atramental
Time to come out the closet
(Today, 10:21 PM)
Reply | Quote

 

[Atramental]

But you have had sex?

Atramental
Time to come out the closet
(Today, 10:21 PM)
Reply | Quote

I'm a closet atheist.

Also, the mod who gave me this tag forgot to put an "of" between the "out" and the "the" and it's driving me nuts. lol

 

[EzLink]

I try my hardest to quell this feeling by striving to give my live meaning. Like, for instance, do you have any long term goals?

Well sure, but who cares? I reach my long term goals, and then what? I enjoy them for a few years until I day. And then my hard work for those goals doesn't matter because I'm dead

I seriously can't find a positive way to spin it, as hard as I try

 

[Movement]

Just noticed that :lol And i'm just kidding, I know you love vagina. Congrats on becoming an atheist, welcome to the dark side.

 

[EzLink]

This is the hardest part, because you're basically undoing rich cultural ties that you have been taught to be as truth since being a baby.

It's really tough.

Going to church when I felt this way made me so mad, because everyone else was joyously buying into it - as if it were some product.

The hardest part too is that I can't be my damn self around many people. Particularly the people I love the most, my family. It would destroy them if they knew I considered myself agnostic, they just wouldn't know how to handle it. And I can't do that to them. But it also means the majority of my life is pretending to be something I'm not :/

Not to mention all of the other ties I made within the church. I already had a big fiasco with quitting the church I was a member at and the pastor threatening to announce my departure publicly in front of all the other members (small town, lots of families I know go to that church, etc.)

I don't really blame any of these people though. They are doing their best with what they believe. It's still frusterating for me though

Then try to make a lasting effect while you are here. I don't know what to say. I've overcome that part a long time ago and I don't know how I accepted it.

Even then, humanity and the planet will die off someday so still that "lasting effect" wouldn't be permanent, even if it were possible for me to make some difference

Really I think that every atheist/non religious person just develops illusions to convince themselves that life is significant. And that's great, because its fucking hard to cope when you don't have anything to lean on. But for me it just feels like I'm trying to fool myself for the sake of my own happiness

 

[RustyNails]

My friend has been telling me about Buddhism. Apart from reincarnation, I really like most of what he's told me about it. I like the focus on individual growth and harmony. I like how its flexible. I like how there isn't a god that requires you to worship in a specific way. In fact, apart from reincarnation, it doesn't seem like a religion at all. It seems more like a philosophy

Not really a Buddhism expert, but from what I learned in Eastern philosophy class in college, Buddhism's idea of achieving peace is through removing desires, including sexual activity. To me, any religion that suppresses sexuality seems incongruent with humanity. But I guess that depends on how much you want to follow Buddhism.

 

[EzLink]

I've had a similar problem. It's hard, but you get through it, the isolation I mean. If you talk to some of them I'm sure they'll understand.

But I'm a city guy. You're from a small town. So...I don't know.

I wouldn't necessarily call it isolation. All of my friends know. I basically talk about it freely to anyone but my family and the people who would tell my family. And my family wouldn't understand, they would be convinced their song was going to be damned to hell for eternity and thats an unfair burden to put on them

Hey man, I appreciate you talking with me about all this though. It feels good being able to get this shit out there, especially with someone who can relate

 

[Atramental]

Going to church when I felt this way made me so mad, because everyone else was joyously buying into it - as if it were some product.

This. I feel like I'm just surrounded by sheep every time I go to church. All baaing to their master, Jebus. Completely ignorant of what precious time AND money they're wasting...
I sometimes want to get up and yell, "IT'S ALL A LIE!! LIVE YOUR LIVES! ENJOY EACH MOMENT!"

Just noticed that :lol And i'm just kidding, I know you love vagina. Congrats on becoming an atheist, welcome to the dark side.

Why, thank you.

Now I just needs to gets me some vagina... Oh and a meaningful relationship that comes with it.

 

[EzLink]

Not really a Buddhism expert, but from what I learned in Eastern philosophy class in college, Buddhism's idea of achieving peace is through removing desires, including sexual activity. To me, any religion that suppresses sexuality seems incongruent with humanity. But I guess that depends on how much you want to follow Buddhism.

From how my friend described it, the individual can pick whatever parts to follow. It's not completely rigid. But yeah, thats the whole concept of nirvana... ultimate detachment from every desire I believe. Although my friend says even the dali lama (spelling?) hasn't reached nirvana, and only a handful of humans have ever gotten to that point. So I'm not worried about having to give up teh secks. Not that I'm getting any anyway

 

[Zaptruder]

Been there done that Ezlink.

Nihilism seems like an attractive philosophy until you realise; so what?

Do you have the balls to top yourself?

No, your sense of survival is probably still too strongly ingrained into your psychology and your genes to do something so rash.

So what then? Just live. And if you're going to live, then live while you're still alive, and stop worrying about death.

I mean, I'm someone that believes that we stand at the cusp of (technologically wrought) immortality... and even thinking that it might be possible to live hundreds, even thousands of years past my natural life span, I realise that eventually I'll want it to end, and when that happens, it wouldn't matter if I experience all the best of existence for as long as I please, or if I just end up sucking my entire life and end up dying in a ditch somewhere... it all ends without meaning.

But. So what? Am I going to sit here and lament about that fruitless end, or simply take strength in the idea that there are no consequences to living, except for living itself?!

I'm still alive, and I have no plans to top myself, nor do I find life particularly excruciating. Indeed, as I grow from moment to moment, I find it more and more interesting. It's not something you'd expect staring down the barrel of nihilism... but there it is; life is interesting.

 

[Movement]

It's crazy how similar our deconversion experiences our from christianity. Himuro, ezlink, and atramental had almost identical experiences to mine.

 

[RustyNails]

Well sure, but who cares? I reach my long term goals, and then what? I enjoy them for a few years until I day. And then my hard work for those goals doesn't matter because I'm dead

I seriously can't find a positive way to spin it, as hard as I try

I'm not an Athiest. But my religion teaches that the only way you can be good even after you die is through charity. Open an orphanage, a place of worship, a charity organization, a school, or any organization that will help other people. Write a book. Even a donation matters. Even if you changed one person's life for good, you did good on earth and you will reap benefits from it. An orphanage will help save many lives long after you're gone. Even through a marriage if you raised good kids, you done good. The point is making a difference. So when you die, at least you died accomplishing something.

There's lot to look for in the world other than selfishly meeting your goals without making any difference.

From how my friend described it, the individual can pick whatever parts to follow. It's not completely rigid. But yeah, thats the whole concept of nirvana... ultimate detachment from every desire I believe. Although my friend says even the dali lama (spelling?) hasn't reached nirvana, and only a handful of humans have ever gotten to that point. So I'm not worried about having to give up teh secks. Not that I'm getting any anyway

:O I'm surprised. I thought Dalai Lama was at max level?

 

[EzLink]

It's just a fact of life: we're all going to die. Stars die, planets die, whole galaxies perish. It's the cycle of life. It's just something you accept and live life the best you can.

I mean, would an after life really give it any more meaning? If you go with the Christian view of heaven you'd be praising God for an eternity. What's the meaning to praising anyone for an eternity?

What's the meaning in anything?

It's what you make of it.

Why yes, the Christian view of heaven is fucking awesome. It's a brand new earth with no sin. Just imagine, after this planet is over, there is a BRAND NEW ONE. Like starting over. Being a part of that from the beginning, exploring everything, living on it forever, nothing bad ever happens, being able to fucking FLY. All that shit sounds awesome. And to be quite honest, chilling with an omnipotent deity for all eternity sounds badass too

Been there done that Ezlink.

Nihilism seems like an attractive philosophy until you realise; so what?

Do you have the balls to top yourself?

No, your sense of survival is probably still too strongly ingrained into your psychology and your genes to do something so rash.

So what then? Just live. And if you're going to live, then live while you're still alive, and stop worrying about death.

I mean, I'm someone that believes that we stand at the cusp of (technologically wrought) immortality... and even thinking that it might be possible to live hundreds, even thousands of years past my natural life span, I realise that eventually I'll want it to end, and when that happens, it wouldn't matter if I experience all the best of existence for as long as I please, or if I just end up sucking my entire life and end up dying in a ditch somewhere... it all ends without meaning.

But. So what? Am I going to sit here and lament about that fruitless end, or simply take strength in the idea that there are no consequences to living, except for living itself?!

I'm still alive, and I have no plans to top myself, nor do I find life particularly excruciating. Indeed, as I grow from moment to moment, I find it more and more interesting. It's not something you'd expect staring down the barrel of nihilism... but there it is; life is interesting.

I think life spans will be able to reach the thousands eventually, but I highly doubt we'll see it in our lifetimes, so that doesn't help much.

Nihilism is just so depressing to come to grips with especially if you've believed your whole life you were significant to the most powerful entity ever.

Also, I don't think I will EVER get rid of the nagging feeling in the back of my mind that Christianity may be real and I really could end up in hell after I die. That shits just been ingrained into my mind so deeply that I'll never fully be able to not worry about that

 

[EzLink]

I'm not an Athiest. But my religion teaches that the only way you can be good even after you die is through charity. Open an orphanage, a place of worship, a charity organization, a school, or any organization that will help other people. Write a book. Even a donation matters. Even if you changed one person's life for good, you did good on earth and you will reap benefits from it. An orphanage will help save many lives long after you're gone. Even through a marriage if you raised good kids, you done good. The point is making a difference. So when you die, at least you died accomplishing something.

There's lot to look for in the world other than selfishly meeting your goals without making any difference.

:O I'm surprised. I thought Dalai Lama was at max level?

I still want to do good things for others on earth. Both of my sisters are adopted and I can't wait to adopt if I end up with a wife. But still, ultimately meaningless if there is no afterlife. Because eventually it will all be over, faded into nothingness

Yeah, I would have assumed Dalai Lama was at MAX POWER too. My friend who is in an eastern religion class though was told that he isn't. Like seriously, he said hardly anyone ever has been able to do it. And no one currently alive has reached nirvana

Also apparently some monks make a vow to stay in the cycle of reincarnation until EVERY SINGLE LIVING THING EVER has reached nirvana and escaped the cycle. That's some hardcore fucking generosity, given their beliefs

I disagree. It sounds really boring. Happiness without pain and various trials is not true happiness.

You've already gone through your pains and trials on earth. That's part of the point

Again, did I mention you can fucking FLY. If you think that sounds boring then shit, I don't know whats wrong with you :lol

Basically I kind of imagine it like being on a drug. Like if you felt incredibly euphoric at all times. That's probably what you would feel like in heaven. Pure ecstasy. So I doubt it would get boring

 

[Zaptruder]

Also, I don't think I will EVER get rid of the nagging feeling in the back of my mind that Christianity may be real and I really could end up in hell after I die. That shits just been ingrained into my mind so deeply that I'll never fully be able to not worry about that

Just keep at it. The evidence will keep collecting and keep mounting against the idea of a theistic universe.

At some point, you'll come to feel the liberation of not having to deal with that bullshit, and come to glimpse at the true interconnected nature of all things and the order they share.

Also, as the evidence mounts, you'll come to realise that even if such a god is real, that he's a complete asshole that deserves a shit in the face rather than to be worshipped.

Or you'll think that, a god worth worshipping has such and such qualities... and then you'll catch yourself and realise exactly what you're doing.

 

[RustyNails]

I still want to do good things for others on earth. Both of my sisters are adopted and I can't wait to adopt if I end up with a wife. But still, ultimately meaningless if there is no afterlife. Because eventually it will all be over, faded into nothingness

Who cares if its ultimately meaningless as long as you give warm food to an orphan for a day? Belief in afterlife is a strong component of religions...If you feel that much attached to afterlife, and feel that you do not have any purpose without it, you should definitely examine religions more and follow one. I'm pretty content in my religion. I would be non-content in atheism. Similarly, posters here are content in their atheism, but non content in religion. Its up to you man. No one's forcing anything.

]Yeah, I would have assumed Dalai Lama was at MAX POWER too. My friend who is in an eastern religion class though was told that he isn't. Like seriously, he said hardly anyone ever has been able to do it. And no one currently alive has reached nirvana

Also apparently some monks make a vow to stay in the cycle of reincarnation until EVERY SINGLE LIVING THING EVER has reached nirvana and escaped the cycle. That's some hardcore fucking generosity, given their beliefs

Mind blown.

 

[Poimandres]

So... what do you guys make of mystical schools of thought?

There's basically a mystical arm of every major religion. Common factors: heavy focus on the interconnectdness of all things on an energetic level, no personalized God (but rather viewing "God" as the totality of existence), emphasis on raising "awareness" or "consciousness" on a personal level, embracing scientific discoveries, a tendency towards concepts of karma and reincarnation.

This is pretty much what I lean towards. A lot of this has filtered through to "new age" teachings, but there is a long history of looking at the universe this way. In many cases, you find remarkably similar concepts arising from these groups of free-thinkers across multiple religions independently of one another. More often than not, these beliefs are not adopted by the religion at large because they stress the roll of the individual experience, and are not easily bound by conventional "rules" and "laws".

 

[Sibylus]

Actually, life without religion has given my life more meaning. Which is something that has surprised me. I do things not because someone's watching me, but because I feel it's right. I live life by own philosophy and this gives me power.

Also this puts beauty into life. It makes me appreciate what we have a lot more. I've had a lot of progress - emotionally, socially, physically, mentally - since accepting my absence of faith, and this allows me to savor the now moreso than what may be.

Think of it this way, the chances of us existing are so slim. I should just be happy to be here period, right?

Don't worry about the evil aspects of humanity. Everything's not so black and white. There's a lot of good in humanity as well.

I agree with all of this. My religious life became only more conflicting and confused as I grew older, and by the time of my "tipping point" I was one really unhappy guy (by far the unhappiest point of my life so far). I realized I didn't have a good reason for believing the things I did and with that my religious beliefs fell away in an instant. I didn't know what to expect. At first I felt cut off, adrift from the anchor and out to sea. I didn't expect that life would be a lot more meaningful for me as a non-believer, and I certainly didn't expect the peace I now have. Years ago I could never get into the mindset of a non-believer, I just had no inkling of what it was like. Something so alien to my thinking settled the inner turmoil and gave me the opportunity to come to terms with my difficulties [1].

Kind of odd how what seems like disaster can be the best outcome in the end.

Spoiler

[1] - Among many other things, my fear of death has loosened considerably. My deep-seated fear of infinity was also assuaged (In other words, both the thought of heaven and hell unnerved me. That shit tortured me for years, I felt like some kind of broken freak for the longest time). The total absence of "God's voice" was reconciled (I could clearly discern my own thoughts posing as a God-figure, which was always troubling), as was the total lack of any connection to the divine or spiritual. All these religious people around me acted as if they were being moved and inspired by absolutely crazy things, but I felt nothing beyond the utterly mundane. Being a teenager and thinking you're "broken" and "salvageable" is not a positive thing. Hell, I was occasionally overcome by the fear that I was the Antichrist. Shit like that messes you up.

 

[Atramental]

Also, I don't think I will EVER get rid of the nagging feeling in the back of my mind that Christianity may be real and I really could end up in hell after I die. That shits just been ingrained into my mind so deeply that I'll never fully be able to not worry about that

Whenever that feeling comes up in my mind I just think to myself:

-Why would he make our DNA 98% similar to the DNA of a chimpanzee?
-Why is it that we can see the Andromeda galaxy, which is 2.5 million light years away, when the earth and all of reality is only 6000 years old?
-Why are there contradictions and errors in the Bible?
-Why is it that there is such a massive lack of historical evidence from 30 A.D. of Jesus's existence?
-Why is there a massive lack of evidence for all of the supernatural claims in the Bible?
-Why faith? Every other religion requires faith.
-Why must Jesus answer our prayers in a "yes, no, or wait" manner? Every other god and deity answers prayers in that manner as well. And at the same rate!

The list goes on of course.

Basically, if the Christian god did exist, he would be the most deceptive being to EVER exist.

 

[The Librarian]

Really I think that every atheist/non religious person just develops illusions to convince themselves that life is significant.

You've got it wrong. An atheist, believing that there is no afterlife/God, realizes that what he has here is all he's got, so he tries to make the most out of it he can. This makes life significant, not the other way around.

And that's great, because its fucking hard to cope when you don't have anything to lean on. But for me it just feels like I'm trying to fool myself for the sake of my own happiness

And what do you think you're doing when you adopt a faith/religion?

Well sure, but who cares? I reach my long term goals, and then what? I enjoy them for a few years until I day. And then my hard work for those goals doesn't matter because I'm dead

What do you mean "and then what"? Then you take pride in what you've done and try to set yourself up for something even more ambitious. The only sure thing you can do is try to live your life to the fullest because it's all you've got. If you do that, you have nothing to be ashamed of, so it doesn't really matter after however much X time has passed when you're forgotten.

I seriously can't find a positive way to spin it, as hard as I try

So you suggest we just do nothing and wait for the inevitable? Because that's a fucking awesome alternative.

 

[DeusTrinitas]

Also, I don't think I will EVER get rid of the nagging feeling in the back of my mind that Christianity may be real and I really could end up in hell after I die. That shits just been ingrained into my mind so deeply that I'll never fully be able to not worry about that

Regardless of what everyone is telling you about suppressing that nagging feeling, you won't ever be able to get rid of it fully and there is a reason for that:

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things."--Romans 1:18-23

 

[Poimandres]

Regardless of what everyone is telling you about suppressing that nagging feeling, you won't ever be able to get rid of it fully and there is a reason for that:

Alternatively, it could be because fear is a particularly powerful means of controlling a person...

Personally, I just can't relate to a judgemental God. Jealousy, anger, punishment... these seem like the worst of humanity- and seem utterly insoluble with an all loving creator.

 

[Ikael]

So... what do you guys make of mystical schools of thought?

They are the most valuable part of religions, and their inner core. After studying it extensively for years I cannot help but feeling that religion is mysticism for dummies. The religious paraphernalia (rituals, laws, theology and the like) are just tools in the service of their particular mysticism practices that became ends on theirselves instead of means to an end. Which is really, really sad. Mankind have forgot how far we could go if we would cultivate our consciousness and how much powerful tools there are at our disposal in order to meet that goal. Also, the disdainful attitude of atheist towards it is quite disheartening. Religion at its core have some really valuable teachings and techniques, and they get ridiculed in order to "kill the messenger", so to speak.

 

[Dabookerman]

Regardless of what everyone is telling you about suppressing that nagging feeling, you won't ever be able to get rid of it fully and there is a reason for that:

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things."--Romans 1:18-23

Actually, it's pretty easy to get rid of such feelings.

 

[JGS]

I disagree. It sounds really boring. Happiness without pain and various trials is not true happiness.

Sure it is. No happiness ever comes from someone you know/love dying.

If it's boring that the fault of the individual since there are tons of things to do now that are fun and devoid of pain and problems.

I'm only talking about happiness and not the religious angle, but still I never get the ohilosophy that life is boring even if it's everlasting considering all the stuff we miss throughout out lives.

 

[EzLink]

Whenever that feeling comes up in my mind I just think to myself:

-Why would he make our DNA 98% similar to the DNA of a chimpanzee?
-Why is it that we can see the Andromeda galaxy, which is 2.5 million light years away, when the earth and all of reality is only 6000 years old?
-Why are there contradictions and errors in the Bible?
-Why is it that there is such a massive lack of historical evidence from 30 A.D. of Jesus's existence?
-Why is there a massive lack of evidence for all of the supernatural claims in the Bible?
-Why faith? Every other religion requires faith.
-Why must Jesus answer our prayers in a "yes, no, or wait" manner? Every other god and deity answers prayers in that manner as well. And at the same rate!

The list goes on of course.

Basically, if the Christian god did exist, he would be the most deceptive being to EVER exist.

Playing devil's advocate here

- I don't think that our DNA being so similar to that of a chimp is any sort of argument against God. Just imagine if you did create everything ever, you would have a certain blueprint you would be using. In fact it's almost more amazing that our DNA is so similar to chimps, given how much difference that 2% can make
- The Bible never says the earth is 6000 years old. That part is flexible. There are lots of respected theologians that believe the earth is the scientifically accepted 4.6 billion years old. Humanity on the other hand can only be, at most, around 10,000 years old if you go by the Bible. Which isn't all that unreasonable of a belief anyway
- Most of the contradictions and errors are skeptics that are really, really trying to reach. Back in my Christain days I would research this shit and there are reasonable explanations for every alleged "contradiction" opponents have found
- I've kinda wondered that myself, but at the same time, the fact that all of his disciples were put to horrible deaths over their belief in his ressurection has always been something I can't explain if Jesus was a hack. Most of them were given opportunities to renounce their belief in him, yet they didn't. They knew they were going to be put to death, and they were. These were the dudes that would know though. So if Jesus really didn't wise from the gwave, they would have knowingly gave up their life for a lie.
- I'm not really sure how there is a lack of evidence for the supernatural claims of the Bible. Because back then they didn't have the type of record keeping and data and whatever as we do today. So what sort of evidence could there even be, other than just relying on personal testimony? The bigger problem is why doesn't supernatural shit still happen? But even in the Bible there were stretches of hundreds of years (particularly in the Old Testament) where nothing supernatural was reported, so that isn't a nail in the coffin either.
- What do you mean "why faith"? Are you asking why doesn't God just make himself obvious to everyone? I wonder this a lot too of course, but the theological answer offers a decent enough explanation. If everyone was certain of God's existence lots of people would follow Him even if they didn't really want to, just out of self preservation. And God wants people to genuinely love Him, He doesn't want people doing it for the wrong reasons
- How else would Jesus answer prayers? Yes, no, or wait are really the only three options He could choose from :lol

Regardless of what everyone is telling you about suppressing that nagging feeling, you won't ever be able to get rid of it fully and there is a reason for that:

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things."--Romans 1:18-23

Yeah, exactly. I mean, humans really aren't as smart as they think they are. And if an infinite omnipotent being exists, it certainly makes sense that humans wouldn't be able to comprehend the vast majority of this entity. And just like the Bible says, maybe we are just ignoring it because we don't like it. It's certainly a possibility. The people that say "oh that's stupid, it's just trying to control you with fear", yeah, I can see it in that light, but at the same time those people fit in to EXACTLY what that verse is talking about in the first place.

Alternatively, it could be because fear is a particularly powerful means of controlling a person...

Personally, I just can't relate to a judgemental God. Jealousy, anger, punishment... these seem like the worst of humanity- and seem utterly insoluble with an all loving creator.

But the way he uses His jealousy, anger, and punishment isn't for evil in the way humans use is. He's jealous because He created us and wants us to love Him, but since He doesn't force that he's jealous when we ignore Him. Analogous to a parent. Imagine having a child you love, but that child despises you and bonds with some other parental figure. I'm sure that would incite jealousy. Anger and punishment is for all of the injustice of the world. So that makes sense too. I get angry at all the horrible people on earth and wish for them to be punished too.

Oh come on, I'm not sure if this post is serious.

You can never be sure. Because if the Bible IS real, you are doing the very thing it is predicting... darkening your heart and supressing the truth.

Like I said, I'm playing devils advocate with all this. But still, this is why I don't think I'll ever be certain the Bible isn't real.

Plus there really is a lot of evidence to support it, at least compared with any other religious book. One thing I can't explain is the destruction of the temple. It was predicted in the Old Testament and then it happened at some point in the New Testament. Granted, its been a while since I've studied this shit so I'm foggy on the specifics. But its obvious the old testament was written way before the temple was destroyed, and its also obvious that it WAS destroyed soooo yeah. Could be coincidence, but there are some other prophecies that are hard to explain away as well.

If somebody can reasonably explain away everything brought up on this link

http://www.carm.org/evidence-and-answers

then maybe there is hope for me That is obviously not the only site though with evidence for the Bible, and in fact it may not even be one of the better ones. It still has lots of stuff I can't easily explain away though

 

[Deleted member 1235]

Well sure, but who cares? I reach my long term goals, and then what? I enjoy them for a few years until I day. And then my hard work for those goals doesn't matter because I'm dead

I seriously can't find a positive way to spin it, as hard as I try

have kids and try and make their lives as positive and free of hardships as you can.

And if an infinite omnipotent being exists, it certainly makes sense that humans wouldn't be able to comprehend the vast majority of this entity.

but we can still understand that he likes us to go to designated locations and sing together at him because otherwise he'll throw us to the pit.

It makes no sense. At all. He can't be that vain if he's that powerful.

 

[Kraftwerk]

So whats the 'title' for this...everyone says something to me so im confused :/
I believe in god but don't follow any religion. = ??

 

[EzLink]

You've got it wrong. An atheist, believing that there is no afterlife/God, realizes that what he has here is all he's got, so he tries to make the most out of it he can. This makes life significant, not the other way around.

And what do you think you're doing when you adopt a faith/religion?

What do you mean "and then what"? Then you take pride in what you've done and try to set yourself up for something even more ambitious. The only sure thing you can do is try to live your life to the fullest because it's all you've got. If you do that, you have nothing to be ashamed of, so it doesn't really matter after however much X time has passed when you're forgotten.

So you suggest we just do nothing and wait for the inevitable? Because that's a fucking awesome alternative.

Whoops, accidentally skipped this. I know the thought process of believing this is all we have is motivation to live life to the fullest, and I'm not suggesting to just curl up and wait for death. But things still feel meaningless because all of the meaning in life is purely subjective. With Christianity, your actions have eternal reprecussions, for better or worse. But all of your good deeds are noted by an infinite being who loves you and wants to give you everlasting paradise.

I wouldn't be struggling with this so much if I hadn't been a Christian for almost 19 years of my 20 year life. Hard to unlearn the thought process, especially in just a little over a years time

That stuff doesn't seem like "evidence" in the traditional sense in the least, man. =/

Given the time all that shit happened though and and the fact they didn't have any technology whatsoever, I'm not sure what else you would expect in regards to evidence. I'm just saying its not like the Bible has so many obvious wrong things in it that its super easy to dismiss.

 

[EzLink]

But according to the Bible, miracles and things happened daily. God actually spoke to people, Noah talked to a burning bush and Noah even caused a river to split in half so people could walk through it. Or are those not real and shouldn't be taken literal? Just stories for us to live by? Then why follow them? They're just stores, then?

That's the biggest evidence towards the bible not being real.

What about the fact that many of the things from the bible were outright taken from other religions in that region during that point in time?

The evidence keeps stacking up and I don't think this was ever real. And even if it were real, there's a section where the Bible says you can enslave others so long as they're from a different nation, or the fact that Noah explicitly asked his people to kill women and children. Even if it were real, would it really be a book worth holding on a higher moral level?

The Bible counts a single person coming to Christ as a "miracle", if I'm not mistaken. So going by that standards "miracles" still do happen daily.

Lots of cool supernatural shit happened in the Old Testament. But according to the Bible, God has a plan for all of human history. And He takes particular interest in the Israelites. So it makes sense a lot of the miracles that happened would involve them, particularly when they need to escape teh faroe

How were things from the Bible taken from other religions? Just because there is some overlapping doesn't necessarily means the Bible "stole" them. It's very possible that other religions got some moral things right that the Bible would also teach.

I don't recall ever reading anything about the bible saying its okay to enslave others from other nations. And as for Noah, its important to recognize that every important figure in the Bible is still a sinner. Abraham did some fucked up shit too, and it was still a sin. The bible doesn't try to depict these people as super holy people... just regular humans that God chose to work through, but humans that still sin and make mistakes

I also read an interesting article a long time ago about how if the Bible was just a big hoax, the authors would have picked things that fit in with the cultural norms. Jesus treating women as equals, for example. If someone was just trying to fake the whole religion they wouldn't choose things that fly in the face of what the culture believes. If that makes sense

I didn't get much sleep last night, I might not be wording or explaining things very well, but hopefully you get the point

 

[ckohler]

Regardless of what everyone is telling you about suppressing that nagging feeling, you won't ever be able to get rid of it fully and there is a reason for that:

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things."--Romans 1:18-23

I hope this isn't too offensive but its easy to twist Biblical words to fit an atheistic/rationalist world view:

"For what is real and true is revealed through science against all god-fearing and self-righteous men, who by their delusion suppress the truth. For what can be known about their so-called god is at best ambiguous to them, because only folklore has shown it to them. For its invisible attributes, namely, its eternal power and divine nature, have never been perceived, never since the formation of the world, much less in the things that have evolved. So they are without excuse. For although they think they know their god, they worship it for false reasons or give thanks to it, but they became futile in their thinking, and their logic is utterly lost and misguided. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the rational and true of the material world for images resembling fairy tales."

 

[JGS]

And yet happiness can come from working real hard on something, struggling, and it finally succeeding. In order to relish happiness, I think that you need the opposite.

We agree that hard work does not equal pain and suffering in my book.

In any case, the heaven described in the bible does not sound like true happiness. To me it sounds like a dictatorship.

Again, not discussing particular beliefs as I'm not sure about the view of heaven you're bringing up, but it's a dictatorship in the sense that you do what you're told by God. But we do that now with human governments so not sure how much freedom you think is lacking by God telling that to you.

You're not getting my point. I say it's boring based wholly on the fact I'd hypothetically live forever. I do not want to do that.

I got your point completely. I'm saying that as long as you live, you will always have something to learn or do. On top of that, if life is good, you will never want it to end. Heck, people with miserable lives usually don't want it to end, how much moreso for a happy person.

It's just that, I don't think that having all pleasure is a very realistic or even natural view on things. Having all pleasure sounds like a cop out. Pain makes me grow, sadness makes me grow, and I walk on top of the blocks and obstacles that in the past, tried to defeat me at one point. Rising up from true despair, only to relish in happiness? That is true happiness to me.

Living in a place that's warm and fuzzy and where there's no pain and all I do is worship a God all day doesn't really sound appealing or something I'd remotely want to visit.

I don't necessarily think that's what the Bible promises people. Look at the first Genesis account where condition were technically set up to the way they would be in a perfect world but also a clean slate. Adam particularly was told what his purpose was

- Take a leadership role in running the planet
- Make babies until the earth was full
- Make the rest of the planet look like Eden
- Obedience. Do what I tell you, particularly don't eat the fruit on the tree or it's curtains for you.

So in a perfect eternal world, one was expected to work, eat, raise families, & obey God. Other parts of the Bible that allude to everlasting often have it connected to work and responsibility. Even when it addresses heaven, it speaks of the ones going there as having responsibilities.

The only thing missing was the pain and death which I could certainly live my whole eternal life avoid and be very happy.

 

[Lucky Forward]

Honey, I'm Dead!

How God rewards a female suicide bomber.

Female suicide bombers set off explosives during rush hour in a Moscow subway, killing themselves and more than three dozen people on Monday morning. Russian officials suspect Islamic extremists. In 2007, Michelle Tsai examined what rewards might await female martyrs in heaven. The original article is reprinted below.

A female suicide bomber detonated a vest filled with explosives at a university in Baghdad Sunday, killing more than 40 people. If male martyrs can expect to find 72 virgin maidens in paradise when they die, what rewards can female suicide bombers expect?

Their husbands. The Quran itself describes little about the specifics of the afterlife, but it does note that believers will find huris, or maidens "of modest gaze, whom neither man nor jinni will have touched before them." (Every believer can end up in heaven; martyrs just get there faster.) Respected commentator Al-Tirmidhi said in a hadith that every man will have six dozen huris in heaven, but very few commentators enumerated the rewards for women. Ninth-century scholar Al-Tabarani did argue that women will be reunited with their husbands in the next world, and those who had multiple husbands can pick the best one to be their eternal spouse. (Other commentators added that a woman who never married can marry any man she wants in paradise.)

From the 9th through the 12th centuries, Muslim scholars described paradise as a place of sensual delights—for men. They debated whether men remained married to their wives in heaven, whether they could have sex with the virgins, and whether the heavenly virgins had anuses. (Some said there was no need for elimination in the afterlife.) There was even disagreement on the number of virgins assigned to each man. While Al-Tirmidhi said it was 72, Mulla Ali Qari, an 11th-century imam, counted 70 virgins and two human wives. Imam Al-Bayhaqi was more generous, granting men 500 wives, 4,000 virgins, and 8,000 previously married women. The meaning of the word hur is also open to interpretation, since it reads as "white raisins" when translated as a Syriac rather than Arabic word.

Women may not get these particular perks, but religious commentaries argue that paradise will make them beautiful, happy, and without jealousy. The fact that they fasted and worshipped Allah during their earthly lives will also make them superior to the virgins, who only exist in heaven. Some modern clerics argue that in heaven, husbands never grow bored of their wives, even with so many huris around. That may explain why some would-be female suicide bombers have spoken of becoming "chief of the 72 virgins, the fairest of the fair."

 

[JGS]

But according to the Bible, miracles and things happened daily. God actually spoke to people, Noah talked to a burning bush and Noah even caused a river to split in half so people could walk through it. Or are those not real and shouldn't be taken literal? Just stories for us to live by? Then why follow them? They're just stores, then?

That's the biggest evidence towards the bible not being real.

What about the fact that many of the things from the bible were outright taken from other religions in that region during that point in time?

The evidence keeps stacking up and I don't think this was ever real. And even if it were real, there's a section where the Bible says you can enslave others so long as they're from a different nation, or the fact that Noah explicitly asked his people to kill women and children. Even if it were real, would it really be a book worth holding on a higher moral level?

The Bible is real whether the miracles are or not. To suspect otherwise, you would have to find suspect the other texts the Bible is accused of ripping off, but no one ever does that.

However, it is a myth that the Bible stole from other cultures. The other cultures simply experienced the same things that are brought up in the Bible and made their own religion of it. No one copied anyone. That is something historians bring up to counteract it's possible validity without actually attacking the other cultures.

Deciding whether the accounts of Noah, Moses, & whatnot are real are important I agree. But that doesn't discount their value anyway since there is usually a lesson learned from all of it. None of the Grimm fairy tales are real, but that doesn't stop them from having some value.

For religious folk, it's important to get in their head which parts of the Bible are literal or not, but for non-religious folk it's silly to argue that the Bible is devoid of lessons to be learned even in the 21st century. It makes it clear the bias they have against it regardless of what it says.

 

[RustyNails]

Honey, I'm Dead!

If male martyrs can expect to find 72 virgin maidens in paradise when they die, what rewards can female suicide bombers expect?

This article is equating martyrdom with suicide bombing, which is true from a suicide bomber's perspective. But to any other, the article seems to convey martyrdom IS suicide bombing, which is false. The only thing they can expect after they die killing innocent people is eternal punishment. Also, the narration of 72 virgins hadith is weak.
"Hafiz Salahuddin Yusuf has said: "The narration, which claims that everyone would have seventy-two wives has a weak chain of narrators."

I wish they examined the thing more other than propagate the falsehood.

 

[Zaptruder]

The Bible is real whether the miracles are or not. To suspect otherwise, you would have to find suspect the other texts the Bible is accused of ripping off, but no one ever does that.

However, it is a myth that the Bible stole from other cultures. The other cultures simply experienced the same things that are brought up in the Bible and made their own religion of it. No one copied anyone. That is something historians bring up to counteract it's possible validity without actually attacking the other cultures.

Deciding whether the accounts of Noah, Moses, & whatnot are real are important I agree. But that doesn't discount their value anyway since there is usually a lesson learned from all of it. None of the Grimm fairy tales are real, but that doesn't stop them from having some value.

For religious folk, it's important to get in their head which parts of the Bible are literal or not, but for non-religious folk it's silly to argue that the Bible is devoid of lessons to be learned even in the 21st century. It makes it clear the bias they have against it regardless of what it says.

If the bible is the word of god, then it has power because it comes straight from the perfect being himself.

However, if the words are open to interpretation; that man must come to understand what parts are literal and what parts are metaphorical, subverts the power of god and places the power in the hands of the men that interpret his words.

Because the bible has been proven not literal, then it must be open to some interpretation.

If it is open to some interpretation, and there is no distinct guide as to what parts are literal and what parts are metaphorical, it is fair to say that the entire bible is open to interpretation.

If it is all open to interpretation, then the bible is another way for men to gain power over their fellow men by making others believe that their interpretation is the will of god, the perfect being.


In the 21st century, much of the prosaic advice contained in the bible is so far removed from our modern life as the time they were written in. Nor does it contain the most important lessons that man has chance upon that need urgently to be transmitted.

But more than any problem the bible creates, it's the idea that it is a complete source of morality, even in the 21st century, which in turn blinds many many people towards properly engaging in free thinking.

Causing the religious to favour lessons prescribed over 2000 years ago over a self-correcting, testing and evovling method of thinking is the bible and religion in general's biggest boondoggle in our modern times.

 

[Shanadeus]

So whats the 'title' for this...everyone says something to me so im confused :/
I believe in god but don't follow any religion. = ??

You're a teist?
Or deist?
I suppose it depends on what kinda "god" you believe in.

You've got it wrong. An atheist, believing that there is no afterlife/God, realizes that what he has here is all he's got, so he tries to make the most out of it he can. This makes life significant, not the other way around.

Dito.

Going slightly OT, but there are lot more pressing scenarios on Earth than Sun dying out

1) Over population
2) Water shortage
3) Asteroid/meteor strike
4) Solar storm
5) Catastrophic natural disaster

Only way I can see the Sun being threat is through a freak activity in the Sun that makes its life way shorter. What annoys me is that we still don't have an international space agency on the scale of NASA. It costs us billions to put a clunky tin in orbit called International space station...I don't see pinwheel space stations happening anytime soon at least, not in my lifetime.

It is almost depressing when you consider the fragility of not just human life, but all life on earth, in this very hostile universum. There are supernovas that cleanse vast areas filled with stars and planets and possibly life without even the smallest warning, and it doesn't matter if we are capable of deflecting a minor meteor if another meteor ten or a hundred times larger is unstoppable and wipe out all life on the planet.

Humans are the only creatures on earth capable of even fathoming the dangers to our planet, and I feel it is our goal and responsibility to spread life throughout the universe so that no matter what - life will always live on.

 

[DeusTrinitas]

I hope this isn't too offensive but its easy to twist Biblical words to fit an atheistic/rationalist world view:

"For what is real and true is revealed through science against all god-fearing and self-righteous men, who by their delusion suppress the truth. For what can be known about their so-called god is at best ambiguous to them, because only folklore has shown it to them. For its invisible attributes, namely, its eternal power and divine nature, have never been perceived, never since the formation of the world, much less in the things that have evolved. So they are without excuse. For although they think they know their god, they worship it for false reasons or give thanks to it, but they became futile in their thinking, and their logic is utterly lost and misguided. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the rational and true of the material world for images resembling fairy tales."

It's rather ironic that you're doing exactly what the passage describes:

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things."--Romans 1:18-23

You're free to twist this passage however you want. Either it's true or it isn't. But if it is true, then I'd say you have a big problem.

 

[Joel Was Right]

Anyone actually speak to Vicars, priests, rabbis or imaams?

 

[JGS]

If the bible is the word of god, then it has power because it comes straight from the perfect being himself.

However, if the words are open to interpretation; that man must come to understand what parts are literal and what parts are metaphorical, subverts the power of god and places the power in the hands of the men that interpret his words.

I don't think the words are open to interpretation at all. Assuming the Bible is inspired, then that means God wants us to believe what the Bible says. This is why it seems clear enough when they are speaking in signs, using illustrations, or talking real events. All interpretation except one are wrong. We know at least one of them is right because God is backing that particular interpretation.

Because the bible has been proven not literal, then it must be open to some interpretation.

Literal does not equal misinterpretation unless I'm misunderstanding what you're saying. If you are meaning literal equaling truth then that still does not have anything to do with wrong interpretations. This is especially true if you acknowledge there are any number of literature devices in use in the Bible.

If it is open to some interpretation, and there is no distinct guide as to what parts are literal and what parts are metaphorical, it is fair to say that the entire bible is open to interpretation.

The guide is very much the Bible itself & the teaching of the religion that most closely reflects Christian Doctrine (Not Nicea Doctrine). The only issue is if you believe what it says which is not the Bible's/God's fault is it?

If it is all open to interpretation, then the bible is another way for men to gain power over their fellow men by making others believe that their interpretation is the will of god, the perfect being.

The Bible is not open to interpretation by people, but it's definitely true that mankind has used it to gain power. That's not the bible's fault is it? There has never been a link between Christian teaching and political dominance except when a human makes it up. On the contrary, Christians aren't supposed to be doing the fighting for God in any physical way.

In the 21st century, much of the prosaic advice contained in the bible is so far removed from our modern life as the time they were written in. Nor does it contain the most important lessons that man has chance upon that need urgently to be transmitted.

This is incorrect. In fact the vast majority of big moral issues are as paramount in the 21st century as they were when the Bible was written. Why? Because despite thousands of years of seperation, men are still largely screw-ups. No matter how you slice it, that's predicted. In fact, that's the easiest prophecy of them all.:lol

But more than any problem the bible creates, it's the idea that it is a complete source of morality, even in the 21st century, which in turn blinds many many people towards properly engaging in free thinking.

This is true only in the context of the ones in the religion. What's the Bible's teaching to you or anyone that isn't Christiann? It has no impact beyond a few of the more evangelical ones saying you're going to burn in hell for your heathen ways. Whoopee (yawn).

Causing the religious to favour lessons prescribed over 2000 years ago over a self-correcting, testing and evovling method of thinking is the bible and religion in general's biggest boondoggle in our modern times.

I'll take the lessons of Jesus over the lessons of a power hungry politician or an arrogant know it all who knows nothing or a person mad at God for the suffering people cause to each other any day of the week. If that makes me primitive, then I'm happy to stay in the Bronze Age. When you have something better though, let me know & I'll be first in line. Your current pearls of wisdom aren't doing much to allay my concerns for mankind without the existence of God.

 

[Shanadeus]

It's rather ironic that you're doing exactly what the passage describes:

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things."--Romans 1:18-23

You're free to twist this passage however you want. Either it's true or it isn't. But if it is true, then I'd say you have a big problem.

But the other passage is also in the bible, and it actually sound sensible and sound.
So if by following one passage in the bible which possibly contradict the above one, you get into trouble?
That is a kinda tricky trap.

 

[KingGondo]

I don't think the words are open to interpretation at all. Assuming the Bible is inspired, then that means God wants us to believe what the Bible says. This is why it seems clear enough when they are speaking in signs, using illustrations, or talking real events. All interpretation except one are wrong. We know at least one of them is right because God is backing that particular interpretation.

So on top of "faith," we have to "assume" certain facts so we can interpret things the way God wants us to interpret them? This Christianity stuff sounds like a lot of work.

If you don't think the Bible is open to interpretation, don't you think it's odd that there have been dozens upon dozens of translations that shade the text differently (why isn't KJV good enough for some people)? How do you know which one is the "right" version? Which one is God "backing," as you put it?

 

[DeusTrinitas]

But the other passage is also in the bible, and it actually sound sensible and sound.
So if by following one passage in the bible which possibly contradict the above one, you get into trouble?
That is a kinda tricky trap.

I think you're confused. ckohler was taking the passage I quoted and changing the words of it to make it representative of an atheist point of view. What he said is not in the Bible.

 

[JGS]

So on top of "faith," we have to "assume" certain facts so we can interpret things the way God wants us to interpret them? This Christianity stuff sounds like a lot of work.

If you don't think the Bible is open to interpretation, don't you think it's odd that there have been dozens upon dozens of translations that shade the text differently (why isn't KJV good enough for some people)? How do you know which one is the "right" version? Which one is God "backing," as you put it?

That's like complaining that you have to chew to eat what you like. If one is faithful and religious, this isn't a stretch at all. In other words, they already know the Bible is inspired. I must be too respectful of people who do not believe in the Bible since my wording is getting in pointless trouble. If you don't think the Bible is inspired, what's the big deal exactly?

The best translations are the ones that translate from the earliest writings. King James does not fit that description. That's not a knock as King James gets the job done except for one big flaw which I'm not going to touch.

King James isn't good enough for some because it was written for King James and no one speaks in thee's and thou's anymore. It is better to get an accurate translation spoken in a form familiar with current readers.

EDIT: As far as who God is backing, use the "clues" in the Bible and they shouldn't be too hard to find. It's a process of elimination. Star with the big guys first:lol .

 

[Shanadeus]

I think you're confused. ckohler was taking the passage I quoted and changing the words of it to make it representative of an atheist point of view. What he said is not in the Bible.

Haha I just realized that, reckoned it was weird that such an passage would be in the bible.