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The REAL February NBA Thread - Accept No Substitute
- Thread starter DMczaf
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Loki said:
Jordan did NOT have a great jumper, I don't know what you are smoking to think he did. Do you remember the debacle of him entering the three point contest? Not what you see on your mythical "tapes", but what really happened. He stunk it up. I was of course joking, Jordan had a good mid range game, but he was never a pure shooter. Like Kobe and a lot of other players he is rhythm shooter. When he is on he won't miss, but he didn't have the mechanics or skill of a great shooter. Even though he is a evil man, I will say Jordan had a better J than Magic, which of course is not a big accomplishment at all.
I don't know if it is the college thing that led to the horrific shooting in the NBA. I think it is more of retard GM's. There are plenty of guys in college who can still shoot well and have size, but most NBA teams keep taking the most athletic player they can get and pray that he will gain skills (especially to shoot) later on. Granted, a lot of guys who are great shooters can be defensive liabilities, but you can't expect every player to be perfect in every aspect of the game, like I said you need to pick and choose and pick all the right parts to form a great team. No one seems to know how to build a complete team anymore with a few exceptions (West is still the man in this regard). Lets be honest Loki, Shaq could have stayed in college for 15 years and he still wouldn't be able to make shit out of 8 feet. Some guys (like Jordan), just don't have that skill.
Dude, Jordan has as consistent a midrange shot (19 feet and in) in his rookie year as Kobe does now, after 8 years in the league. He'd kill you with the J. This isn't my Jordan whorism talking; even Sports Illustrated called him "the best shooter in the league from 22 feet and in" in 1991, when he won Athlete of the Year. His < 20 foot jumper was incredibly consistent years before this. Kobe has always had a much better long-range shot than Jordan, and I've always said so, but from 22 feet and in? Jordan, hands down.
Was MJ ever a pure shooter, like a Miller or Bird or Ray Allen, or Dale Ellis? Hell no. But he nonetheless became the most consistent shooter from 22 feet and in in the entire NBA. Numerous coaches, analysts, and sports publications have stated as much.
My point was not to make this a "Jordan" post, but rather to point out that there are several skills and fundamentals lacking in today's game for a majority of the players. The players who possess those skills (e.g., a good shot, good footwork, the ability to legitimately run an offense, the ability to move without the ball well etc.) tend to be the ones who prosper.
Good point. The point, however, is that "shooters" should not have to be specialists who are relegated to only one or two spots on each team; rather, all players should have a serviceable shot (as they used to, by and large). Sure, you can still have your specialists (like a Steve Kerr), but if the majority of people on your squad can't consistently hit an open J, then the defense will sag and your liabilities will be exposed.
Was MJ ever a pure shooter, like a Miller or Bird or Ray Allen, or Dale Ellis? Hell no. But he nonetheless became the most consistent shooter from 22 feet and in in the entire NBA. Numerous coaches, analysts, and sports publications have stated as much.
My point was not to make this a "Jordan" post, but rather to point out that there are several skills and fundamentals lacking in today's game for a majority of the players. The players who possess those skills (e.g., a good shot, good footwork, the ability to legitimately run an offense, the ability to move without the ball well etc.) tend to be the ones who prosper.
Good point. The point, however, is that "shooters" should not have to be specialists who are relegated to only one or two spots on each team; rather, all players should have a serviceable shot (as they used to, by and large). Sure, you can still have your specialists (like a Steve Kerr), but if the majority of people on your squad can't consistently hit an open J, then the defense will sag and your liabilities will be exposed.
mitch kupchack is due -- is overdue -- for a halfway competent move. he can't have been jerry west's understudy for however many years without picking up something. i swear the highlight of his laker front office career was signing rick fox (he, rather than west, orchestrated that). and i'm not saying that out of fondness for rick fox.
though come to think of it the payton trade is working out pretty well. atkins really stepped it up when kobe was out, and i like mihm when he can keep himself in the game (his "i've just picked up another stupid foul" face is, however, growing as familiar as elden campbell's once was).
anecdote: a friend and i once managed, unknowingly, to steal mitch kupchak's seats at the staples center. we cheesed it before we were ejected by security or whatever. mitch kupchak didn't have such great seats.
though come to think of it the payton trade is working out pretty well. atkins really stepped it up when kobe was out, and i like mihm when he can keep himself in the game (his "i've just picked up another stupid foul" face is, however, growing as familiar as elden campbell's once was).
anecdote: a friend and i once managed, unknowingly, to steal mitch kupchak's seats at the staples center. we cheesed it before we were ejected by security or whatever. mitch kupchak didn't have such great seats.
Loki said:
We will never agree on the Jordan thing, but I really don't think Kobe is a great shooter either. I still see both of them as rhythm shooters, but lets just agree to disagree here.
Honestly, I am terrible at bball now and yet I think I can outshoot a lot of NBA players which is PATHETIC. Too many players in the NBA are 100% athleticism and 0% skill. I don't think that comes from lack of teaching or coaching, personally I think a huge part of the ability to shoot a basketball is something you either have or your don't. I think that the players that are more balanced overall just get overlooked and the ones that do make it are not placed in the right role to take advantage of their talents.
One thing that I really think hurts a lot of NBA players is that they lift too many weights (a lot of people disagree with me on this). I really believe that if you build up too much muscle on your body it will negatively effect your fine muscle movements. It is no coincidence that the best shooters always seem to be the dorky skinny kid with no muscle on his body.
Well, we can agree to disagree, but I'll leave you with this:
During the '97 playoffs, Pat Riley had his assistant coaches analyze tape of Michael Jordan, and they found that without a "hand in his face", he was hitting 68% of his shots. With a hand in his face, he was down to 48%. That tells me that a player can knock down an OPEN jumper (which is what we're discussing-- OPEN 15-20 footers, which a LOT of defenders give offensive players these days because they know they won't get burned by it). Even my father-- as pure a shooter as you'll ever find-- said that he notices now when watching the warmups for games, that only a few guys make shots. He says that "back in the day", nobody missed shots during warmups.
My father actually went to a national basketball camp one summer where Jerry West and Rick Barry were the instructors; he said that these guys just DID NOT miss. He said that West rattled off about 50 straight jumpers from around the horn one time. Think more than 2 or 3 players can do that today, even in warmups with no defense? Doubtful.
During the '97 playoffs, Pat Riley had his assistant coaches analyze tape of Michael Jordan, and they found that without a "hand in his face", he was hitting 68% of his shots. With a hand in his face, he was down to 48%. That tells me that a player can knock down an OPEN jumper (which is what we're discussing-- OPEN 15-20 footers, which a LOT of defenders give offensive players these days because they know they won't get burned by it). Even my father-- as pure a shooter as you'll ever find-- said that he notices now when watching the warmups for games, that only a few guys make shots. He says that "back in the day", nobody missed shots during warmups.
My father actually went to a national basketball camp one summer where Jerry West and Rick Barry were the instructors; he said that these guys just DID NOT miss. He said that West rattled off about 50 straight jumpers from around the horn one time. Think more than 2 or 3 players can do that today, even in warmups with no defense? Doubtful.
Loki said:
I agree with your dad about the warmup thing. I noticed that too when I used to go to games in the 80s vs. now.
:lol Now you are going to think I am crazy, but that 68% of shots hit without a hand in his face almost reconfirms what I thought.
That 50 shots in a row is fucking unbelievable. The most shots I have ever made from a decent distance was like 15 in a row from 3 point range (college), and that was a very rare occurance. Reminds me of a similar thing I witnessed at a bball camp I went to in high school at Bucknell. At one point, the instructor literally made like 20 shots in a row from a few feet behind the arc WHILE talking to us. This from a guy who was probably 30 and only played at Bucknell, which is barely Div1. He was a skinny guy too, just like West and Barry.
Dude, the 68% without the hand in his face was in games (i.e., there was some defense there, but the defender either slacked off or didn't react in time)-- he can hit many more in practice wide-open, I'm sure, as could most old school players. 
Can you name 5 guys today who'd hit 7 out of 10 shots in-game if you backed off them a step? I can't.
Yeah, my father said he was awed by the shooting prowess of West and Barry. And my dad was an incredible and pure shooter-- he could go out right now, after not touching a ball for 9 years, shoot around for 15 minutes, and would be raining shots left and right. He did it about 9 years ago in front of me and my friend, after having not touched a basketball for nearly 20 years. He has made 99 out of 100 free throws on three separate occasions while getting his own rebound. And even he was just dumbfounded by how good those pro guys were. Makes you think...
Granted, Jerry West and Rick Barry were not your run of the mill pros, not your "ordinary" shooters, but still...
Can you name 5 guys today who'd hit 7 out of 10 shots in-game if you backed off them a step? I can't.Yeah, my father said he was awed by the shooting prowess of West and Barry. And my dad was an incredible and pure shooter-- he could go out right now, after not touching a ball for 9 years, shoot around for 15 minutes, and would be raining shots left and right. He did it about 9 years ago in front of me and my friend, after having not touched a basketball for nearly 20 years. He has made 99 out of 100 free throws on three separate occasions while getting his own rebound. And even he was just dumbfounded by how good those pro guys were. Makes you think...
Granted, Jerry West and Rick Barry were not your run of the mill pros, not your "ordinary" shooters, but still...
My personal favorite Vince Dunk- http://www.redbrick.dcu.ie/~hammo/movies/dunk.mpeg
:lol that was great back when it happened.
:lol that was great back when it happened.
Matlock said:
<Shinobi>
Yeah? Yeah? Well...umm...NASCAR drivers are athletes, too, you know! 5 G's in the turns! Scorching heat in the driver's seat! The ability to sit for long periods of time! Err..umm...yeah! Take that, cocksuckers*!
</Shinobi>
<jabs Shinobi in the ribs>
* obligatory use of the word "cocksuckers", or some creative variant thereof, in every Shinobi post. Void where prohibited. Offer not valid in all 50 states.
Ninja Scooter
Member
Loki said:<Shinobi>
Yeah? Yeah? Well...umm...NASCAR drivers are athletes, too, you know! 5 G's in the turns! Scorching heat in the driver's seat! The ability to sit for long periods of time! Err..umm...yeah! Take that, cocksuckers*!
</Shinobi>
<jabs Shinobi in the ribs>
* obligatory use of the word "cocksuckers", or some creative variant thereof, in every Shinobi post. Void where prohibited. Offer not valid in all 50 states.
it was almost a perfect impression, but the lack of a "Bitch, please." to start things off prevents it from being flawless.
etiolate said:
Maybe (Peja's long-range shot is MUCH better than his midrange shot), yes, maybe, yes (but he doesn't count since he's a fossil), nope (not from 21 and in), yes.
So you've got 2 definites, 1 no, and 2 maybes among non-fossilized players.
Besides, it wasn't an actual challenge; I don't think it's an uncontroversial opinion to state that fewer players can shoot the midrange J consistently anymore. Yes, the specialized "shooters" (Dirk, Ray etc.) in the league are just as good as in years past, and many guys are just as good at 3-pointers as they used to be, but after these select "shooters", there's a sharp decline as compared to a 15 years ago.I just don't feel from watching him that his midrange shot is anywhere near as consistent as, say, Dirk's or Ray Allen's. It's better than Peja's 15-20 footer, though. And I don't think he'd hit 70% of them without a hand in his face, in a game, with the defender backed off a couple of feet but still there.
I don't know. His first year with the Kings he hit the midrange shot all season and then burned teams in the playoffs with it. It wasn't until everyone woke up and started getting really hard up on him that it wasn't automatic, but it's still very sharp. The Kings are full of shooters, even Brad Miller is near automatic with an open midrange shot. Of course it's uncommon and perhaps the reason teams go athlete over shooter is that if the athlete can learn to shoot they can create their own shot. Out of all the shooters in the league right now, Ray Allen is the best at creating his own shot. The rest aren't so good, and Peja + Dirk mostly rely on being taller than everyone and just shooting over them.
Creating your own shot has nothing to do with how good a shooter you are, though-- it has to do with your athletic and creative gifts. Now, whether you MAKE the shots you create (particularly if they're jumpers) DOES have to do with how good of a shooter you are. I can create my own shot at any time, but since I haven't played ball regularly for over a year, I won't make many of those created shots if they end up being (even uncontested) jumpers. The problem with the NBA today is that you have a bunch of guys who can "create their own shot", but few of them can actually shoot it, leading to declining FG%. Some people will point to the "defense" that's being played today, but, if anything, I think that it's half and half-- at least half the blame for declining FG% around the league lies with the players' lack of shooting skill, particularly in the 15-20 foot range.
You have a lot of guys who can hit 3's nowadays, and a lot of guys who can dunk. When's the last time you saw a "star" take two dribbles to his left and stop on a dime for the pull-up J? Outside of Dirk and Ray Allen (and sometimes Kobe, because he knows he can get it off), I'd wager "quite a while." And that's because these guys don't have that in their repertoire-- they're not confident with the midrange J as a weapon. And what that does is limit your options as an offensive player, and allows defenders to slack off and concentrate on your strengths. And it's not just on face-up, one-on-one situations, either. Think of a curl play: if your defender knows that you're not a threat to catch and shoot, he can trail that play, conserving energy, because he knows that you're either going to try to curl all the way to the basket or go into some elaborate "And-1" dribbling sequence looking to "own" him. Further, he may choose to not trail tightly on the curl AT ALL, since he can just slip under it without severe consequences. I can detail dozens of instances like this which occur during the course of a game.
The fact is that 1-360 (players in the NBA), the shooting ability of players, particularly in the 15-20 foot range, has declined by quite a margin. It's noticeable.
And yes, Bibby has gotten hot in the past-- particularly against LA in their playoff series in '01 or '02; I just haven't seen it consistently from him over the years, is all.
Panther_Fan
Member
Loki said:
Haven't read the latest posts yet, but just wanted to bring something up. By your own logic Loki, players today consistantly get wide open jumpers simply for the fact that they can't hit them. If you reverse that logic, and know that Jordan's greatest skill (pre-first retirement) was his driving abilitly, wouldn't that cause him to get a lot of open jumpers?
I saw Jordan play from college on, and until he developed the turn-around fade-away he was never regarded as a great jump shooter (regardless of SI and their whore-isms). It was basically a statistical anomaly the night he had against the Blazers.
I'm not trying to take away anything from Jordan, hell I wish todays "superstars" improved their game half as much as Jordan did over his career. To say Jordan was the best jump-shooter of his era (ala SI) is quite an overstatement imo. I think that due to his driving ability and quickness, he got a lot more open looks than say, a Dale Ellis or Dell Curry. And we both know how much easier it is to shoot an open J. I think Jordan's athletic ability greatly increased the number of outside looks he got, and TO HIS CREDIT, he was able to take advantage of this. That doesn't make him the greatest shooter of his generation though, and he was never regarded as such (outside of your SI claim).
ps. As a longtime Charlotte Hornet fan, I'd love to know what you think of Dell Curry.
Panther_Fan
Member
Loki said:
My point exactly. Jordan was able to get open looks from the outside due to his athletic ability, and to his credit, he became a good outside shooter.
Perhaps the dilemna is, was Jordan SUCH a good driver that his jumper appeared worse than it actually was?
I'd reluctantly put Jordan at the pantheon, and I say reluctantly because I love Bird's court vision and bball timing (not a great one-on-one defender but knew the game so well that he was always in position for team defense), and I'm an unabashed dookie.
Saying a Tarhole was ever the best at anything burns my very soul, even if it is at something as innocuous as womens soccer lol.
Panther_Fan
Member
Loki said:
F'ing word. I promise not to reply to this topic again until I finish it, but WORD.
I think the most amazing thing I've ever heard is Drazen Petrovich (RIP!) hit 99 out of 103 NBA Three Pointers in practice. Hell, the average player in the NBA would miss more than 4 uncontested layups today.
I miss shooters. Can JJ Redick play in the league? I didn't think so his first two years, but he looks fast enough now. He's run down and asked to do more than he can handle at Duke now, but in an NBA system he would be better than "The Alaskan Assassin" Langdon ever did I think.
Panther_Fan
Member
As far as I can remember, Drazen played three years in the league. The first was as a forgettable reserve for the Blazers at 8 ppg. Then he had a nice season with the Nets at around 15 ppg, then his Magnum Opus with the Nets at 22 ppg. That season, they had Derrick Coleman (yes kids, DC was once an All Star, and seemed to be perennial), Kenny Anderson (yes, KA was once a damn fine player too), and Drazen. Seems he had an awesome playoff run that year too, averaging around 40 a game for one series.
He was an amazing, once (twice if you throw Bird in there) in a lifetime, shooter. It was basketball fans loss around the world when he was killed in that car wreck (and to top it off the driver, his gf at the time, lived).
Petro could have been amazing, and likely would have still played as recently as a few years ago (he was killed around 92-93?)
He was an amazing, once (twice if you throw Bird in there) in a lifetime, shooter. It was basketball fans loss around the world when he was killed in that car wreck (and to top it off the driver, his gf at the time, lived).
Petro could have been amazing, and likely would have still played as recently as a few years ago (he was killed around 92-93?)
Yeah, it was 93 if I remember correctly.
On another note, my DVR is getting a workout this weekend.
Celebrity game (already deleted)
Rookie game (haven't seen it yet)
Dunk Contest
Skills Competition (I'm assuming 3 pt contest goes here)
All Star Game 2005
All Star Game 1998 (ESPN Classic Sunday Night)
All Star Game 2003 (ESPN Classic Sunday Night)
All at least 1 hour, some up to 3 hours (All star game)
On another note, my DVR is getting a workout this weekend.
Celebrity game (already deleted)
Rookie game (haven't seen it yet)
Dunk Contest
Skills Competition (I'm assuming 3 pt contest goes here)
All Star Game 2005
All Star Game 1998 (ESPN Classic Sunday Night)
All Star Game 2003 (ESPN Classic Sunday Night)
All at least 1 hour, some up to 3 hours (All star game)
Moneyhats2k5
Member
A front line of Mihm, Boozer and Odom :O
Best rebounding frontline in the NBA
Best rebounding frontline in the NBA
Panther_Fan said:
Jordan's driving ability forced teams to colapse into the lane and focus on him more and that forced him to improve his mid-range game. Jordan took advantage of the respect teams gave him regarding his ability to get to the hoop. But I agree with Loki as well as S.I. There has never been a better NBA player than Jordan at creating the room he needed to get a mid-range shot off (and to hit them consistantly). A lot of great players take advantage of what the defense gives them. Jordan was one of the few that took what he wanted.
Anyone that says that Jordan did not have good shooting form doesn't understand shooting form themselves. Jordan's form on his jumpshot was pretty near perfect. As was his FT form. I don't think anyone has "great" form from the set shot position, at least not from 20 feet out.
But the biggest point here is that no one has ever been able to match Jordan's ability to create the room he needed to get a shot off. Did he get more room on his shot because players had to respect his ability to drive? Well of course. Did he have an amazing pop-back move to set up his shot. Well, yes. And did he have amazing body control while in the air? Yes he did. Jordan seemed to always be able to square up his shoulders while in the air so that he was taking a good shot. That's what made Jordan the best mid-range shooter of his time.
There have been a ton of shooters that were more "pure" but that's not what we are really talking about here. Like it was said earlier most of the players getting drafted nowadays are getting picked due to their athletic ability (and potential) over their skill set. GM's are hoping that these athletes will learn how to shoot well under pressure. Well Jordan was one of those few great athletes that learned how to shoot better each year throughout his career.
As far as Dell Curry is concerned. I think Dell developed a very quick release to compinsate for his lack of ability to create his own shots. I dont' think he was ever that good at shooting off the dribble or even off picks. But if he was given the tiniest bit of space he could get his shot off. Dell is nothing compared to Reggie Miller though as far as pressure shooters are concerned. Reggie has what I like to call "hoop awareness". He always seems to know where he is on the court. There are times when he shoots that you can tell that he had no chance to see the hoop before he started his shot but had the ability to alter once he had started it. I don't think anyone has ever been better at running off picks than Reggie, the dude is a snake. I have too many memories to mention where I have seen Reggie cut out to the three point line, catch the ball facing away from the hoop, start his shot while turning and then finish the shot facing towards the hoop. He's done it several times this year too. And now he's a fossil.
It's just incredible.As for the five players that can hit 7 out of 10 mid-range shots (in-game) if you gave them a step, I would say Reggie, Ray Allen, Grant Hill and Dirk. I can't name 5. Cause like Loki I don't see enough players actually doing it. I think Richard Jefferson could wind up turning into a good mid-range shooter, his mechanics are good. But I think his mid-range percentage this year is probably scewed a bit by Kidd giving him the ball at the right time. Time will tell if more players will focus on that part of their game. I guess you can even argue that Duncan has a strong mid-range game too. He gets a lot of room on the wing for shots due to his ability to get to the hoop as well.
Well I don't write as well as Loki but I hope my points are laid out well.
Ninja Scooter
Member
Loki said::lol
Lakers never lose! They're going to give up 2 or 3 shit players and get Boozer in return? Wow, who's managing the Jazz again?
The rumor is Caron, Devean and Vlade for Boozer, which could actually work. Boozer supposedly has fallen out of favor with Utah coaches and management and he's got like 5 years left on his deal. They supposedly want to move AK47 to the 4, which would leave a hole at the SF. Caron would give them a SF for the future, Devean as a nice backup until his K is up a year from now, and they can simply buyout Vlade for a couple million and get his contract off the books. Gives the Jazz a TON of friggin cap relief too if they really would like to get rid of Boozer, basically trading his huge, $70 million contract for Caron's rookie deal (and they could then resign Caron for much less than Boozer was making). Perhaps if you'd stop and think before shitting on anything whenever someone says the word "Lakers" everyonce in a while, Loki.
Ninja Scooter
Member
DMczaf said:
fuck Jesus, he plays no D.
Ninja Scooter
Member
DMczaf said:So what? He has a mean sky hook!
here's a real pic of Jesus shooting a skyhook.
and yes, this JEsus doens't play a lick of D either, but who cares?
Do you guys think if they paid the players to join, more people would come and play in the Dunk Contest?
Marc Stein believes so:
Marc Stein believes so:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/allstar2005/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&id=1994898
Ninja Scooter said:here's a real pic of Jesus shooting a skyhook.
and yes, this JEsus doens't play a lick of D either, but who cares?
I always knew Jesus was black!
We should not trade for Boozer. The worst thing you can do as a team is panic and start making trades to make the playoffs this year. This just reeks of Isiah Thomas management 101. His contract is obscene too. Lakers are young and need to be patient and make smart trades one at a time. If it was Kevin Garnett or Tim Duncan I give a totally different answer, but as Isiah is not in charge of either of those teams that isn't going to happen any time soon.
Jesus, no wonder the NBA has so many ass clowns in it. It is like they have 30 guys like Konex and Loki as GM.
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