Support NeoGAF

[.Pennywise]

Indies and AA games gave me the most joy this last generation as AAA games became more and more stale as they go too much to the safe zone and don't innovate much.

That being said, the amount of indie games being showcased in all the gaming shows are overwhelming. They even conformed a big chunk of the PS5 conference/presentation, like 50% of it was indies.
IGN show? Full of indies.
PC Gaming Show? Indie Game Show.
Guerrilla Collective, Future Games Show, etc. Indies here and there, all full of indies. One trailer after another, one interview with indie developers after another.


Now, as I've said, indies and to a bigger extent, AA games, are good for the industry and you can find really good gems often.

The problem is, as the quantity of indies goes up, the quality goes unfailingly down.

I've seen so much trailers that made me just straight out say "oh not another one of this please". Way too much low quality designs, animations, and variation (here it comes the 100th low poly crafting survival sandbox, yay!).
And that is the main problem. We know indie developers don't have the resources to make 1 million CGI cinematics nor high fidelity animations or graphics. But they have the resources to make good games/experiences, and in the majority of cases they're failing.

I think they took way too much the spotlight in this one, to the point, sadly, that a big part of them are beign used just as cannon fodder and fillers, more than hidden gems.

 

[RedVIper]

The problem is, as the quantity of indies goes up, the quality goes unfailingly down.

Irrelevant.

If you get 10 indies and 50% are good you'll get 5 good games.

If you get 100 and 10% are good you'll get 10 good games.

You only have to buy the good ones.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I actually like Indies when they try to do something new.

Instead, most Indies just try to ape past AAA titles on a smaller budget.

 

[JOEVIAL]

I kinda agree... kinda disagree though.

Yes we will get more games, and in turn more shovelware...

But we will also get many more good games. Indies have come such a long since Braid and the mid 2000's. We used to get maybe 5 good indie games a year back in the mid 2000's. Now we get well over 10, depending on your tastes.

 

[.Pennywise]

Irrelevant.

If you get 10 indies and 50% are good you'll get 5 good games.

If you get 100 and 10% are good you'll get 10 good games.

You only have to buy the good ones.

But I'm not talking about how many good indies I could get. The big amount of shovelware there is, is not a problem. I'm talking about how much really low tier quality is thrown to my face in every show, and how they're being highly overused, to the point, as I stated in the op, that they're just being used as cannon fodder and fillers, more than a good showcase.

 

[SinDelta]

Quantity is a quality of its own after all.

 

[unintelligent orange]

Yeah. Indies are very hit and miss. Most are not worth paying for. It's best to let those one get no sales and then die.

If consumers will only pay for genuinely good things, the market will adjust accordingly. A lot of people dont realize this simple fact.

 

[Valt7786]

Thing is everyone has next gen fever at the moment, we're all waiting for certain titles to be announced or shown and every show so far has a been a disappointment full of games most people don't care about. There should have just been 1 show dedicated to indies, and be called the indie game show so people know what they're getting.
Calling your stream the PC Games show or the Future Games show just raises expectations, expectations that aren't being met.

 

[Cert.in.Death]

Indies are the heart of the industry. Invariably not everyone succeeds but I don’t see the harm in trying to showcase smaller games to drive consumer interest. There are sufficient avenues already to find the major AAA efforts.

 

[Abriael_GN]

The PC gaming show was WAY bloated. At 2 hours and 18 minutes by my count, they could have at least cut down on the useless theatrics, without mentioning the fact that the presenters felt extremely canned, adding to the irritation. The last part of the show had me yawning and it didn't do justice to the games that were shown toward the end, because everyone was bored to death by then.

The Future Games Show was an absolute farce, extremely light on relevant stuff, with things touted as exclusive reveals that were just devs repeating what they had already said on the PlayStation blog. Felt like an obvious "Me too" moment in which GamesRadar had to have its own show because other sites were having it and they didn't want to be less, but they obviously didn't have the pull to get content. It's the worst show I've seen in a long time.

The funniest part is when they touted a small teaser for Outrdider's next livestream as an "exclusive look." That smelled like pure desperation.

Nothing against indies by the way. Lots of things would have been interesting if presented with the due care, but they felt like they were simply crammed together for the purpose of making volume instead of actually giving them the spotlight.

 

[Birdo]

Sale fillers.

 

[Thugnificient]

How many survival games do we need?

 

[bilderberg]

All the overly whimsy indie games are driving me mad. I can't take it anymore.

 

[MDSLKTR]

Infinite filler for GP, humble bundle and free giveaways.

 

[ACESHIGH]

Yes OP you are right. It's something I started noticing a couple of years ago. The problem is not that there are a lot of small budget indie games but that a few % of games of the high end platforms like PC, PS4 or Xbox one actually is up to current gen standards in production values and graphics. I can enjoy your metroidvanias and retro FPS but having a PS5, Gaming PC, or Series X to play those indie games feels wasteful. Like driving a Ferrari to go to shop groceries.

I remember that during the PS1, PS2 and even the PS3 days most games took advantage of the full power of a console, they could be crap, but at least they looked modern. I wish there could be more studios releasing single player AA games like Shadow Warrior, Elex, Technomancer, Styx, Daymare 1998, ReCore and more. It's critical to show support to this type of games or else we will have a handful of studios releasing big games and nothing in between.

 

[Ballthyrm]

Survival of the fittest.
Getting a lot of indie means some will make it long enough to make bigger games later.
Everybody has to start somewhere.

Just buy the good ones, the devs will get the money to make better games later on.

Case and point, CD Project.
Most people jump on the band wagon at Witcher III, they were around for more than a decade beforehand.

You won't get the big independant games budget out of the blue.
Where would they get the money ?

What i see when i see a tons of indies is more future great dev studios.
This is good. Buy the good games and everything will be fine.

 

[Spukc]

Yes and No, OP
Yes maybe and No.

Probably yes or no
Maybe

Difficult

 

[Thugnificient]

Also, am I the only one who noticed the number of times a tree got chopped in those games?

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

There have been a shitload of indies revealed the last few days, for sure, but a lot of them look pretty cool IMO. I don't think it's an issue, really.

 

[.Pennywise]

Nothing against indies by the way. Lots of things would have been interesting if presented with the due care, but they felt like they were simply crammed together for the purpose of making volume instead of actually giving them the spotlight.

That's exactly the problem I'm traying to point to. They're clearly not being well spotlighted.

How many survival games do we need?

Yes

All the overly whimsy indie games are driving me mad. I can't take it anymore.

Yes and No, OP
Yes maybe and No.

Probably yes or no
Maybe

Difficult

Definitely maybe.

 

[Gamernyc78]

Survival of the fittest.
Getting a lot of indie means some will make it long enough to make bigger games later.
Everybody has to start somewhere.

Just buy the good ones, the devs will get the money to make better games later on.

Case and point, CD Project.
Most people jump on the band wagon at Witcher III, they were around for more than a decade beforehand.

You won't get the big independant games budget out of the blue.
Where would they get the money ?

What i see when i see a tons of indies is more future great dev studios.
This is good. Buy the good games and everything will be fine.

So true. Housemarque started with small budget games and now you can see them transitioning into larger budget ones. If you make it with an indie, as you grow your budget and experience does and great things can come from that. Have you guys ever seen some of the games Naughty initially made? Lol

 

[dcx4610]

I prefer indie games. They are the one games at this point in my life that give me fresh and memorable experiences. It can still happen with AAA games but those tend to cater to the casual market.

That said, the issue is as these systems get more powerful, they resources and money to make them goes up as well. It's hard to find companies that are willing to spends movie-sized budgets on video games unless they are going to huge hits. That's when indies come in.

 

[Ulysses 31]

Bring all the games they want, I'll just buy the good ones.

 

[GHG]

People hating on indie games is the strangest trend of the last couple of years.

I think it's great that smaller studios are now getting their time in the spotlight. These games are absolutely necessary in the sea of generic and repetitive AAA games we get year after year.

 

[Belmonte]

Indie games quality is increasing with all this competition. I follow a Facebook page of indie games and every saturday they show what they are working. There are many promising games I want to play.

 

[ACESHIGH]

What i see when i see a tons of indies is more future great dev studios.
This is good. Buy the good games and everything will be fine.

I agree but what I noticed is that the indie devs that have a big hit, just release a sequel to that game on a similar style. The first Witcher game from 13 years ago looks better than 90% of the games on the PC gaming show and it was an AA game then made on an ancient engine.
I think that part of the problem is that people are too harsh with AA games because they measure them against AAA ones. Case in point all the "Eurojank" games. Whereas your "I can't believe it's another Metroidvania" gets a pass.

 

[Greatest Of All Time]

Makes sense to me.

Theyre typically smaller teams on smaller scale games that must have been easier to coordinate on during the pandemic than giant triple A studios thus they're more show ready at this point.

 

[.Pennywise]

People hating on indie games is the strangest trend of the last couple of years.

I think it's great that smaller studios are now getting their time in the spotlight. These games are absolutely necessary in the sea of generic and repetitive AAA games we get year after year.

Again, that's not the point of the thread. And as I stated, I'm really far from "hating on indie games". I've said what you said about AAA games in the first sentence of the OP.

I'm talking about how they are, as you say, taking the spotlight, but they're doing it in a bad manner.

 

[mr.dilya]

95% of indie games are straight up trash.

 

[Alexios]

Lol, no. They only show a handful that they think will have some mainstream appeal to give their shows hits and there are tons more awesome ones they could show but don't because the outlets are nooblet gamers anyway. Ignore the shit stuff, play the good stuff, it's all there, from indie to AAA.

 

[.Pennywise]

95% of indie games are straight up trash.

I wouldn't say the number of bad indie games is bad, less to say "trash". But as I said, the more there are, the lower the overall quality.

 

[.Pennywise]

Lol, no. They only show a handful and there are tons more awesome ones they could show but don't because the outlets are nooblets anyway.

I don't agree at all. I've seen way more indie games in these showcases than high or middle budget games.

 

[namekuseijin]

in the past, I've lost count of uninspired 2D 8bit clones of Mario, MegaMan, Zelda, Metroidvania and the likes

now I've already lost count on BotW indie clones...

very few indies have something new to say. I did enjoy Limbo, Inside, Hyper Light Drifter, The Witness, Dead Cells etc

 

[DeepEnigma]

I respectfully disagree.

These are the new “AA” now. It’s basically the comparative volume it was before, but now large publishers focus strictly on AAA and Indies take care of the new AA space.

I personally think some Indy games are of high quality as well, especially with the confines they are working with. The cream of the crop will stand out and you can ignore the ones that are of low quality.

 

[GHG]

Again, that's not the point of the thread. And as I stated, I'm really far from "hating on indie games". I've said what you said about AAA games in the first sentence of the OP.

I'm talking about how they are, as you say, taking the spotlight, but they're doing it in a bad manner.

How are they doing it in a bad manner? Do you only want AAA games at these conferences or something?

How would you propose they go about getting exposure in a major way?

 

[Punished Miku]

Yeah it's a problem for me too.

Switch in the early years stood out in that they seemed to curate indies a bit harder, which helps me out and made me want to buy more. Now it seems the floodgates are wide open on the eshop and its filled with a lot of trash games.

I still at least appreciate whenever Nintendo does the separate Nindie Direct shows because I can focus on a solid 10-15 games that are at least worth a look at some trailers

 

[rofif]

I agree. Many look the same. cartoony graphics, female lead, maybe pixel graphics. And it would be fine but many are so generic... Like very generic why even make a game like this. Left gen Indies were much different. See have some greats this gen too like inside, witness or gungeon but the waves of generic stuff are so weird. When games like I've mentioned or limbo, meatboy, gone home etc came out it was a huge deal. Now it's like there are no new styles and ideas

 

[Gamernyc78]

I don't agree at all. I've seen way more indie games in these showcases than high or middle budget games.

Tht doesnt sound righttttt at allll

Spiderman
Horizon
Resident Evil
Sackboy
Returnal
Agithia
Gt
Godfall
Ratchet
Oddworld
Ghostwire
Astrobot (from Sony comes with console)
Hitman
Deathloop
Demon Souls
Pragmata (Capcom)
NBA 2k

As opposed to 7 or 8 indie.

Way more mid tier to AAA games. I know your pushing a narrative but it just isn't true. There were around 7/8 indies at most and I just named like 17 mid to AAA games. All the above are from established known studios not indie ones.

The Indie numbers thy showed were no different from when Sony pushed indies initiative with ps3/ ps4 and thy had the gem of Journey and few others. Keña seems to possibly be a gem and lil Devils tht will go on to do big things. Thy showed more than enough exclusives and AAA in general but indies have a place too.

Btw after the show Sony made clear thy had "many" other games in development themselves in an interview even though what I saw was good enough for me.

 

[JOEVIAL]

Again, that's not the point of the thread. And as I stated, I'm really far from "hating on indie games". I've said what you said about AAA games in the first sentence of the OP.

I'm talking about how they are, as you say, taking the spotlight, but they're doing it in a bad manner.

I think I understand now. So you're concerned that Sony/Microsoft are putting too much of the spotlight on indie games at their big conferances, and not enough on AAA.

Especially at the beginning of a generation when AAA games are what people typically buy these consoles for.

Again... sort of agree, but I also love my indies

 

[.Pennywise]

Tht doesnt sound righttttt at allll

Spiderman
Horizon
Resident Evil
Sackboy
Returnal
Agithia
Gt
Godfall
Ratchet
Oddworld
Ghostwire
Astrobot (from Sony comes with console)
Hitman
Deathloop
Demon Souls
Pragmata (Capcom)
NBA 2k

As opposed to 7 or 8 indie.

Way more mid tier to AAA games. I know your pushing a narrative but it just isn't true. There were around 7/8 indies at most and I just named like 17 mid to AAA games. All the above are from established known studios not indie ones.

The Indie numbers thy showed were no different from when Sony pushed indies initiative with ps3/ ps4 and thy had the gem of Journey and few others. Keña seems to possibly be a gem and lil Devils tht will go on to do big things. Thy showed more than enough exclusives and AAA in general but indies have a place too.

Btw after the show Sony made clear thy had "many" other games in development themselves in an interview even though what I saw was good enough for me.

Yeah that's if you count just the Sony presentation. But if you look at IGN fest, PC Gaming Show, Future of Games, etc, shows, you'll see there's way more indies.

EDIT: and again, not hitting on indies

 

[Gamernyc78]

Yeah that's if you count just the Sony presentation. But if you look at IGN fest, PC Gaming Show, Future of Games, etc, shows, you'll see there's way more indies.

OH in totality? More than in the past maybe? Some of those shows I've never seen so honestly I wouldn't be able to speak on that.

 

[GodParticle]

I don't care for indie games at all. They often have interesting ideas, but poor execution

 

[Matsuchezz]

Just buy what you like, you do not have to buy everything. I am cool with indie games, since AAA games, are getting more expensive each generation and Devs are taking longer to develop and release those games, I think Indie games are god send. We have cool games to play in between those big AAA releases. Even AAA games end up being crap and some are expensive shit, like Anthem, the last Mass Effect, Halo 5.
Some indie games are really good, for short experiences that major publisher would not dare to spend time or money on those, from the PS5 event, I dig a lot off indie games that caught my eye. More options for everyone is good.

 

[Coolwhhip]

It must be super hard to make money in this ocean of indie games. I can barely tell them apart anymore.

 

[EDMIX]

Irrelevant.

If you get 10 indies and 50% are good you'll get 5 good games.

If you get 100 and 10% are good you'll get 10 good games.

You only have to buy the good ones.

That makes too much sense and logic for them to understand.

 

[.Pennywise]

Just buy what you like, you do not have to buy everything. I am cool with indie games, since AAA games, are getting more expensive each generation and Devs are taking longer to develop and release those games, I think Indie games are god send. We have cool games to play in between those big AAA releases. Even AAA games end up being crap and some are expensive shit, like Anthem, the last Mass Effect, Halo 5.
Some indie games are really good, for short experiences that major publisher would not dare to spend time or money on those, from the PS5 event, I dig a lot off indie games that caught my eye. More options for everyone is good.

For the seventh time. It's not the point of the thread.

That makes too much sense and logic for them to understand.

Funny how you say that without even understanding the point of the thread.

Is it good to have more good indies? Yes.

Is it good to have indies poorly curated take all the spotlight and use them as cannon fodder and filler? ...

 

[EDMIX]

For the seventh time. It's not the point of the thread.


Funny how you say that without even understanding the point of the thread.

Is it good to have more good indies? Yes.

Is it good to have indies poorly curated take all the spotlight and use them as cannon fodder and filler? ...

Who decides what is "Good indies"? The thing you are talking about is completely subjective....

Based on the reveal, what would you consider "Good"?

and Gamernyc78 destroys a lot of your point too...

Its hard to argue this when the numbers just don't add up based on that reveal.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

I actually like Indies when they try to do something new.

Instead, most Indies just try to ape past AAA titles on a smaller budget.

The number of 8 or 16-bit looking metroidvanias must be in the 100s by now.

 

[Matsuchezz]

For the seventh time. It's not the point of the thread.

I understand your point, so what would you like to see? what would solve the problem that you seem so concerned about?

 

[Clear]

When games take as long to make as they do these days, especially big-budget titles, you need to accept that there won't be that many released in any given year.

Without indies, the scene would be very quiet. Its just an economic reality.