MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Every game he makes an improvement in his overall skill, I say give him a chance, but Square will not.
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The state of Square, and what happened?
- Thread starter HitokiriNate85
- Start date
Every game he makes an improvement in his overall skill, I say give him a chance, but Square will not.
Write Wada a letter every time it happens.
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
I do not write letters for incinerators.
1) They can't get their console game production pipeline in gear, like a lot of Japanese devs.
2) They tried to push forward with their Fabula Nova Crystalis thing as well as FFXIV funding their other games, even after both of those initiatives failed.
3) 90's generation growing out of anime and the current generation of teenagers not as interested in anime.
2) They tried to push forward with their Fabula Nova Crystalis thing as well as FFXIV funding their other games, even after both of those initiatives failed.
3) 90's generation growing out of anime and the current generation of teenagers not as interested in anime.
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
You know the saying, "You can't teach an old dog new tricks".
Hydrogen Bluebird
Member
I think it's great for the people that enjoy it. The art and stories/writing are not for everyone though.
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
BERSERK was good. Not as good as the manga though.
Jathaine
Member
I'm Shimomura's #1 fan. Trust me I've listened to it.
She just did a far better job in BBS than 3rd Birthday.
I really have to disagree with this.
Crisis Core and Persona 4 are as Anime as you can possibly get and they have both done well and recieved high praise even in the west.
Most people weren't freaking out because Lightning had pink hair, they got mad when she had pink hair and her and the rest of her cast were written by a 12 year old with a panty fetish.
Well, I thought we were talking about anime fans, and it was generally a well received decade with them. I guess people that don't like anime would feel that way.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=45970783&postcount=900
I made this huge write up in a thread last month. Puts to words my thoughts on the whole issue .
I made this huge write up in a thread last month. Puts to words my thoughts on the whole issue .
Meccanical
Member
Years of hookers and blow have left Square in a fantasy world of pink haired women and skin tight leather suits.
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
If XIV lives up to its promise of amending the original's issues and Lightning Returns is the last in the XIII universe, then we are back on track. They should start with Type-0.
Type 0 will need an overhaul at this point, there is some interest but it is dwindling with each passing day.
And Type-1 Framework was supposedly completed a long time ago.
And I suspect that otome spoof was a stealth teaser.
Okay that was a bit of a generalization.
Not anime in general of course, but the kinds of stories and characters typically found in teen-focused Japanese RPGs since FFVII. A lot of people back then got into that stuff just because that basic appeal combined with the fact that very little on consoles up to that point had the same appeal. Many of those people probably got tired of that over the years.
Persona 4 is just plain good characterization. I feel like it's really popular despite its anime aesthetic.
spoiler alert: they haven't.
Yes but that doesn't explain Crisis Core or Kingdom Hearts. I don't really agree on Persona 4, but it shows that several types of Anime storylines, including those of VII's vareity can still work.
It's just needs to be done by someone who isn't a god damn idiot.
Cornbread78
Member
I won't get started, just go bad to making Jrpgs on consoles again. Who cares what audience they are for, you tried too hard to appeal to the west.
plus, get rid of all the money hat titles...
oh and what Kagari said..... I hope they have leared and fix it fast.
plus, get rid of all the money hat titles...
oh and what Kagari said..... I hope they have leared and fix it fast.
Alias Greed
Neo Member
In my opinion people like to overblow this because they miss their favorite developer / have nostalgic eyes.
The only big and by big I mean BIG F*** up was FFXIV and the money pit it became. That game ruined their entire japanese console output.
As for the rpg's that you miss so much of the ps1 and ps2 days blame the market. Things change. Those rpgs you love so much were moved to psp, ds, iOS.
Plus they saw the market shifting so they decided to invest in eidos, which turned out to be an amazing choice.
Square as a whole is perfectly fine, aren't them one of the few making money as a japanese publisher.
In my opinion you just miss the ther jrpg output but as whole they are fine.
The only big and by big I mean BIG F*** up was FFXIV and the money pit it became. That game ruined their entire japanese console output.
As for the rpg's that you miss so much of the ps1 and ps2 days blame the market. Things change. Those rpgs you love so much were moved to psp, ds, iOS.
Plus they saw the market shifting so they decided to invest in eidos, which turned out to be an amazing choice.
Square as a whole is perfectly fine, aren't them one of the few making money as a japanese publisher.
In my opinion you just miss the ther jrpg output but as whole they are fine.
What does this even mean?
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Yeah they really need to understand that people like them for making japanese rpg's. That is to get back into their own element of game design and to cater to no one.
You have to have a coherent vision instead of empty ambition.
Cashgrab games like All the Bravest. Theatrhythm would also qualify despite being a great idea.
Also ALL THOSE RE-RELEASES!
XIV were their second big fuck up, Spirit Within was the first and a very costy one.
Originally Squaresoft is a no name game company that nearly went under, but was saved by the wild success of Final Fantasy, a game where they just let their designers go all out and design what they personally wanted to play. This sets the tone for the company: designers pushing the craft of their games, mostly RPGs, in new and exciting ways. Not all of their projects are runaway successes, but they're all at the very least fairly interesting.
Eventually someone decides they need to make a movie and push the craft of movies forward too, and so they attach Final Fantasy's name to a totally CG movie way ahead of its time and develop all kinds of new technology in order to make it happen. It bombs and they lose 120 million dollars on it.
Hironobu Sakaguchi, creator of Final Fantasy and vice president of Squaresoft, voluntarily steps down, and is basically shamed out of the company. Squaresoft merges with the other RPG superpower in Japan, Enix, and becomes SquareEnix.
SquareEnix is now a company run by suits that hold a monopoly on the big name RPGs, and as creative talent bleeds out of the company it becomes something of a Japanese EA or Activision (a mega publisher). The first Final Fantasy published by SquareEnix is the first "direct" sequel in the series (X-2). The second one (XII) has a lot of its creative energy smothered by business decisions meant to maximize its potential audience and profits, with the creative lead having breakdowns from internal pressure and eventually leaving as a result.
Then, on top of the company having its creative core slowly eaten away by suits, this generation hits, and Japanese developers in general just cannot keep up with the changing dynamics of working on the 360/PS3. Despite how much money they've pumped into their games to keep them as visually progressive as they once were, a lot of their best titles end up on handhelds (TWEWY, Kingdom Hearts BBS/DDD, 4 Heroes of Light, etc), while their "HD" games take too long to come out, are plagued by compromises, or just end up in development hell.
Personally, I think they're going to be putting out some amazing games after all the turmoil and adjusting they had to deal with this generation, and I hope to see them empower new faces within the company to start some kind of JRPG renaissance, though it remains to be seen what will happen or if they really have gotten their shit together.
Eventually someone decides they need to make a movie and push the craft of movies forward too, and so they attach Final Fantasy's name to a totally CG movie way ahead of its time and develop all kinds of new technology in order to make it happen. It bombs and they lose 120 million dollars on it.
Hironobu Sakaguchi, creator of Final Fantasy and vice president of Squaresoft, voluntarily steps down, and is basically shamed out of the company. Squaresoft merges with the other RPG superpower in Japan, Enix, and becomes SquareEnix.
SquareEnix is now a company run by suits that hold a monopoly on the big name RPGs, and as creative talent bleeds out of the company it becomes something of a Japanese EA or Activision (a mega publisher). The first Final Fantasy published by SquareEnix is the first "direct" sequel in the series (X-2). The second one (XII) has a lot of its creative energy smothered by business decisions meant to maximize its potential audience and profits, with the creative lead having breakdowns from internal pressure and eventually leaving as a result.
Then, on top of the company having its creative core slowly eaten away by suits, this generation hits, and Japanese developers in general just cannot keep up with the changing dynamics of working on the 360/PS3. Despite how much money they've pumped into their games to keep them as visually progressive as they once were, a lot of their best titles end up on handhelds (TWEWY, Kingdom Hearts BBS/DDD, 4 Heroes of Light, etc), while their "HD" games take too long to come out, are plagued by compromises, or just end up in development hell.
Personally, I think they're going to be putting out some amazing games after all the turmoil and adjusting they had to deal with this generation, and I hope to see them empower new faces within the company to start some kind of JRPG renaissance, though it remains to be seen what will happen or if they really have gotten their shit together.
Cornbread78
Member
Chuck Norris
Banned
I would comfortably say that not a single amazing game has been made as a result if his tenure, besides perhaps the odd Nomura game having some quality to it.
Some were released - FFX, and Kingdom Hearts were well in development and FFXII had begun development when Wada started so he gets ni credit for those and management changes eventually caused the company to lose any effective direction. The only quality products released since he began were products in various stages of development at the time he started, since then Square has produced much lower quality stuff. You could even argue this extends over to the Enix side, with Dragon Quest VIII being the last truly ambitious attempt in the series - since then it seems they've decided to place it on a lower tier than Final Fantasy.
This is so good, and their greatest contribution this gen.
Pristine_Condition
Member
No Paradise Eve? Fuck 'em.
Alias Greed
Neo Member
True, but didn't they recover from that by the time PS3 was released in Japan ?
I remember Sony buying some stock and that was the reason Enix absored them, or something like that.
Many people talk about bad management or key people leaving, but I think those problems are common in game companies, and oftentimes not the main reason in why a company goes down.
Especially in the case of Square, the key people who have left, none of them has been able to create hits outside of Square, and this brings into question how much the success of the past can be attributed to those "key" people. In fact, it can be argued that Square should get rid of more of those "key" people to bring new life into their now stale portfolio.
If we set aside the two above reasons, we can start looking at problems exclusive to Square.
1) Being a Japanese company, they are facing a shrinking console market in Japan. This means it is key to be competitive in the foreign markets such as the US. Since the days of FF7, western game companies has caught up in technology, has reached the same level of polish as Japanese games, and they are more able to create content that appeals culturally to the western market.
It is clear from the declining sale of JRPG overall, and the recently escalated debate on the importance of relate-able character design and plot that Square is facing a dilemma whether to focus content on Japan or the West. Unfortunately, it is practically impossible for teams comprised of largely Japanese people to create games that are culturally relevant to the west. This means we will see continued decline in sale for their key IP's like Kingdom Hearts and Final Fantasy until a shift towards focus on western contents and key personnel changes to initiate that shift.
2) Square was slow to adapt to the changes in customer spending/gaming habit, especially in the western markets. The rise of F2P, PC gaming, online, user generated content, was largely ignored by Square as a whole. It is only recently we started to see more push for online related business opportunities. Unfortunately, it is difficult to break into a space with existing dominant players like Valve/Activision/EA without an attractive new IP, which Square is seemingly reluctant to do. With declining profits and the question of the feasibility of AAA game problem, it is highly unlikely we will see Square taking that risk, which will play part into further decline.
Even when Square experiments with F2P and micro-transactions, they miss the point and do irrecoverable damage to their IP (FF ATB fiasco).
3) As others have said, inability to rein in cost and green lighting projects that that shouldn't be green lighted is a huge factor in their recent decline. It can be argued that this is due to bad management, but I believe the real reason behind the bad management is that Square has trouble understanding what their customers wants (FF the movie is a shiny example of "key" personnel making this mistake).
Square games have always been the graphical behemoth of the game industry, yet with the change in taste of games evident with games like Journey, The Walking Dead, Minecraft, etc. it is clear that gamers are now looking for something else in their games.
While it is nice to see breathtaking CG's that costs hundreds of thousands dollars to make, when they are not part of the gameplay, you have to question if those resources could have been better spent. Square is in a troubled state because changing would mean abandoning what has made them so successful in the past.
It sounds disheartening, but I don't think it is the end for Square.
What they need to do is strengthen ways for their Japanese teams to understand the needs of their customers. Understand that building long-term relationship with the player is the key to financial success. This does not mean simply making a MMO or micro-transaction only games. They also need to think about how to approach refreshing their stronger IP's with games that embrace the changed landscape of games, such as user generated contents, connectivity. This does not mean simply adding online features or releasing sub-par games/ports to mobile/pc, but they need to be new titles built around these new gameplay possibilities.
Especially in the case of Square, the key people who have left, none of them has been able to create hits outside of Square, and this brings into question how much the success of the past can be attributed to those "key" people. In fact, it can be argued that Square should get rid of more of those "key" people to bring new life into their now stale portfolio.
If we set aside the two above reasons, we can start looking at problems exclusive to Square.
1) Being a Japanese company, they are facing a shrinking console market in Japan. This means it is key to be competitive in the foreign markets such as the US. Since the days of FF7, western game companies has caught up in technology, has reached the same level of polish as Japanese games, and they are more able to create content that appeals culturally to the western market.
It is clear from the declining sale of JRPG overall, and the recently escalated debate on the importance of relate-able character design and plot that Square is facing a dilemma whether to focus content on Japan or the West. Unfortunately, it is practically impossible for teams comprised of largely Japanese people to create games that are culturally relevant to the west. This means we will see continued decline in sale for their key IP's like Kingdom Hearts and Final Fantasy until a shift towards focus on western contents and key personnel changes to initiate that shift.
2) Square was slow to adapt to the changes in customer spending/gaming habit, especially in the western markets. The rise of F2P, PC gaming, online, user generated content, was largely ignored by Square as a whole. It is only recently we started to see more push for online related business opportunities. Unfortunately, it is difficult to break into a space with existing dominant players like Valve/Activision/EA without an attractive new IP, which Square is seemingly reluctant to do. With declining profits and the question of the feasibility of AAA game problem, it is highly unlikely we will see Square taking that risk, which will play part into further decline.
Even when Square experiments with F2P and micro-transactions, they miss the point and do irrecoverable damage to their IP (FF ATB fiasco).
3) As others have said, inability to rein in cost and green lighting projects that that shouldn't be green lighted is a huge factor in their recent decline. It can be argued that this is due to bad management, but I believe the real reason behind the bad management is that Square has trouble understanding what their customers wants (FF the movie is a shiny example of "key" personnel making this mistake).
Square games have always been the graphical behemoth of the game industry, yet with the change in taste of games evident with games like Journey, The Walking Dead, Minecraft, etc. it is clear that gamers are now looking for something else in their games.
While it is nice to see breathtaking CG's that costs hundreds of thousands dollars to make, when they are not part of the gameplay, you have to question if those resources could have been better spent. Square is in a troubled state because changing would mean abandoning what has made them so successful in the past.
It sounds disheartening, but I don't think it is the end for Square.
What they need to do is strengthen ways for their Japanese teams to understand the needs of their customers. Understand that building long-term relationship with the player is the key to financial success. This does not mean simply making a MMO or micro-transaction only games. They also need to think about how to approach refreshing their stronger IP's with games that embrace the changed landscape of games, such as user generated contents, connectivity. This does not mean simply adding online features or releasing sub-par games/ports to mobile/pc, but they need to be new titles built around these new gameplay possibilities.
this is.. good
Dreamwriter
Member
Their biggest mistake was releasing Chrono Trigger III as Final Fantasy XIII-2. Such a great game, but it sold relatively poorly due to being a sequel to a FF game that not a lot of people finished.
Chuck Norris
Banned
Im also apprehensive on Eidos. They have released a bunch of games that were great since the buy out, but they were also games already in development.
HitokiriNate85
Member
Thanks. That helps summarizes the timing of everything.
pantsmith, Sou, good points all around.
Yeah, I think they're not taking the kinds of creative risk necessary for success at this point considering their console output. Maybe they're profitable enough to keep them afloat, but that's not what they need in the long run. When I made this thread I wasn't even thinking about the creative stifling that happened with FFXII.
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Quite
KrM DeLorean
Member
Too much focus on quality looks and presentation and not enough on quality gameplay.
Silver_DNA
Member
Isn't there a big, super secret reason why FF7 will never be remade? I thought I heard someone mention something like that in passing on an 8-4 podcast.
Square-Enix, Capcom, and Konami. I used to think these three companies could do no wrong.
Square-Enix, Capcom, and Konami. I used to think these three companies could do no wrong.
Not all input from people outside of the developers is bad. The game does have to sell and have memorable characters after all (something FFXII failed at in my opinion).
It was SQEX LA that insisted on an old man for the main character in NieR and Cavia protested so much that they had to compromise and make two versions of the game. And yeah, old man Nier is only about 1,000,000x better.
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Because if they screwed up it would be game over and heavy dev costs will likely crush them as well.
And FFV and FFVI should come first.
Peter Bazooka
Banned
How bad would it be for SE if FFXIV bombs again? Survivable? Out of business?
KH got as big as it did in the US because of the Disney influence. Epic Mickey sold 1.3 mil on Wii first month. The KH series nowadays can't even touch those numbers. A KH game would've done incredibly well on the Wii.
Square will survive regardless of what happens to XIV. The likely hood that it has a huge turn around is slim to none.
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Survivable, just means Square may simply become a handheld/mobile gaming producer.
Someone has to retain their childhood somehow in this world.
Dreamwriter
Member
At one point, the person most likely to direct a FF7 remake (the guy in charge of the Kingdom Hearts series I think) gave a reason: cost and time. He said that FF7 was such a big game, with so many widely varied environments and characters, that to do a remake at the quality of the PS3 FF7 tech demo would take a team of 300 people five years - the only way they were able to make that demo was they had just finished making a full CGI Final Fantasy VII movie and were able to reuse many of the movie's assets.
That's quite the gamble, to dedicate such a huge resource for basically an entire console generation, and if the average salary of those people was $50,000, then the game would have a budget of over $75 million.
What is the total sales for Epic Mickey? Because I'm fairly sure that both BBS and Day's are close if not above it.
So a mainline Kingdom Hearts 3 on PS3 could easily perform as well if not better then Epic Mickey.
Oh come on, it wouldn't be nearly as bad as this.
It would be a hurt, but with titles coming from Eidos, LR, and Dragon Quest VIIr/X Wii U they will survive with console development just fine.
ChanDangle
Member
Ever since they merged with Enix they went to shit, imo.
Oh please, this is extreme exaggeration. Why are they showing of Agni's Philosphy and buying Eidos if they're so close to being handheld only? You are greatly exaggerating their supposed financial dilemma.
XIV: ARR will do fine. If they can pick up 200k in Japan, 200k in the US, 100k in Europe and keep them for the long haul the game will eventually be profitable. This includes the PS3 version. The game may pull numbers bigger than that. They also have DQX and FFXI running too.
I think their arcade games, anime and manga publishing, physical toys, music cds and touring concert series might slow down before they exit all of console development. People greatly underestimate how big they actually are.
BING BING BING.
Handheld Square hides itself under a dusty old desk in the back of the eighth floor. It's the only reason ANYTHING gets done there. One time Toriyama found them, and that's how Third Birthday happened. Tabata had to get him SUPER DRUNK and leave him in Korea before he'd forget how to find them.
As wretched as console Square is (and boy are they ever! Between XIII and XIV, Versus' disappearance, their radical advertising for Hitman and Tomb Raider), handheld Square is still good. DQ IX, Type-0, Bravely Default, TWEWY, Theatrhythm, BBS, And Dissidia were all really good games.
But Console Square is a nightmarish hell-hole into which only those who no longer treasure their sanity venture.
So basically like, Kagari, LuuKyK and Narolf.
Half the fun of MagiusNecros is that he will ALWAYS remind you of when you were twelve.