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[jcm]

That's not what happened. Nintendo wanted to keep its relationship with Rare, but the Stampers wanted to cash in. Nintendo wasn't willing the shell out that kind of cash for a studio that was already having a ton of issues at the time, so the Stampers shopped around, and Microsoft was the highest bidder.

At that point, there was no reason for Nintendo to hold onto their 37-ish percent, so they sold them back to Tim and Chris, and they sold them in tern to MS.

Minor correction: Nintendo owned 49%, not 37%.

 

[A Black Falcon]

NoA did fine with what they had to work with, more than half of all Gamecubes sold were sold here.

No, it was a catastrophic drop. NoA went from 23 million to 21 million SNES to N64 (and actually the N64 might have outsold the SNES in the US alone, those numbers are "Americas")... and then way down to 12 million the generation after that? Ouch!

Of course, it happened because of what I've described (MS splitting the N64 market by taking the "softcore" Western audience away from Nintendo), but yeah, it was not good. It could have been a lot worse, and was still enough to be profitable, but it wasn't good.

 

[ST2K]

Yup. And they still seem to believe this:

*quote*

Which is hard to disagree with, but it still seems like such an outright contemptuous attitude to have towards their most loyal customers.

Yeah. If true, it's an absurd attitude to have. Not to mention probably offensive to those die-hard Nintendo fans.

Articles like this do nothing but paint Nintendo in a bad light, perhaps justifiably so. But even if it was completely false, we would never know because they are so damn isolated from everyone else. They never engage their consumers in a way similar to virtually anyone else in the industry. And now, because of this article, we have a possible reason why: they just don't give a shit. I always assumed it was ignorance or just an obsolete manner of management that doesn't interact well with a worldwide market. Perhaps I was wrong.

 

[Sponge]

Many of Rare's games with Nintendo sold well. Saying that they would have continued to do so isn't a guess, it's a certain thing. The return on investment would come because Rare's games sold well in Nintendo's audience. They didn't on MS consoles not because all of the games were bad, but because they were targetting the wrong audience. The Conker remake, Kameo, Viva Pinata, and BK:N&B are quite good games, they just weren't right for that audience. They would unquestionably have sold better on Nintendo consoles -- and Nintendo would have spent less for them, too (200 million for Nintendo, versus what was it, 500 million for MS to buy Rare?). And without multiple added console transitions, Rare would have made more games in the '02 to '06 period, as well!

You're absolutely right about that too. Rare released remakes of DKC on the GBA shortly after the buyout, and those remakes sold well. Heck, even Diddy Kong Racing DS sold decent. Rare's audience was Nintendo's audience, and they didn't follow them after the buyout. After the insane sales of the first two Halo games, and Microsoft getting the easy market of people who play shooters and sports games, the idea of Rare ever succeeding on any Microsoft platform was a pipedream. There's a reason why we got Nuts & Bolts, and why riding around in a car reminded me a lot of GTA and not Banjo. That's also the one of the reasons why you don't see Oddworld published under Microsoft anymore, and why Oddworld Inhabitants are kinda hanging with the indie crowd now.

Another thing I don't think many people know is that during Rare's time under Microsoft (before the restructure/Kinect), Rare worked on a lot of games that never even released. Donkey Kong Racing was a Gamecube game moved to the Xbox as "Sabreman Stampede". That game ultimately had its plugged pulled in the end. There's also stories about games pitched like Arc Angel, Urchin, Ordinary Joe, and Perfect Dark Core that barely made it past tech demos. My guess is Rare had a lot more freedom being a second party studio with Nintendo. Considering there's quite a list of cancelled games during Rare's time with Microsoft, I doubt they gave much mercy on what Rare pitched to them.

 

[A Black Falcon]

You're absolutely right about that too.

Hey, I said that, not that guy...

Rare released remakes of DKC on the GBA shortly after the buyout, and those remakes sold well. Heck, even Diddy Kong Racing DS sold decent. Rare's audience was Nintendo's audience, and they didn't follow them after the buyout.

Yeah, the very good sales of the GBA DKC remakes show without question how Rare's audience was Nintendo's audience. It is true that Sabre Wulf and It's Mr. Pants didn't exactly sell great, but their mascot titles (DKC particularly, the two GBA Banjo games somewhat less) sold well, and GC/Wii Rare mascot titles would have sold well also. No question at all. And we would surely have gotten a Donkey Kong GC 3d platformer at some point, too (remember that, despite all the criticism, DK64 was Rare's best-selling N64 3d platformer).

After the insane sales of the first two Halo games, and Microsoft getting the easy market of people who play shooters and sports games, the idea of Rare ever succeeding on any Microsoft platform was a pipedream. There's a reason why we got Nuts & Bolts, and why riding around in a car reminded me a lot of GTA and not Banjo. That's also the one of the reasons why you don't see Oddworld published under Microsoft anymore, and why Oddworld Inhabitants are kinda hanging with the indie crowd now.

Yeah, Microsoft tried for a while to appeal to platformer fans, with stuff like some of Rare's games, and some original Xbox games like Blinx and Voodoo Vince, but they gave up on that by the early years of the X360, certainly. I like BK: N&B, really, and don't mind the genre change, but you're likely right about why they did it. I pointed out that GbtG had a similar genre change, and that one didn't work out anywhere near as well... GbtG particularly could have benefited from Rare not leaving Nintendo, I'd say. As for N&B, we'd probably have gotten something quite different instead, but Rare would have made console racing games too (Donkey Kong Racing, etc.), so they might not have needed that platformer/racing/open-world hybrid concept in order to sell racing games.

As for Oddworld, their second Xbox game was a shooter, remember... they gave up on platformers even before leaving Microsoft. Understandable. (At least it was a good shooter, though...)

Another thing I don't think many people know is that during Rare's time under Microsoft (before the restructure/Kinect), Rare worked on a lot of games that never even released. Donkey Kong Racing was a Gamecube game moved to the Xbox as "Sabreman Stampede". That game ultimately had its plugged pulled in the end.

Yeah, Rare could have gotten well back on track in '03-'05, after weak years in '01 and '02, if not for Nintendo selling them to MS (this is effectively what happened)... but instead, it was four weak years, instead of two, followed by effective death sometime after that.

There's also stories about games pitched like Arc Angel, Urchin, Ordinary Joe, and Perfect Dark Core that barely made it past tech demos. My guess is Rare had a lot more freedom being a second party studio with Nintendo. Considering there's quite a list of cancelled games during Rare's time with Microsoft, I doubt they gave much mercy on what Rare pitched to them.

Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me at all if MS wasn't much tougher on which Rare games they approved... some people at Rare wanted to be free of Nintendo, and they got their wish. I imagine a lot of them regretted it later, but by that point it was, sadly, far too late.


Oh, as for Kinect Sports, which was mentioned at some point, that game sold well because it was aimed straight at the Kinect audience, and wasn't a traditional Rare title at all -- because the real Rare had been killed off before its release. I doubt they'll ever be back.

 

[SegaShack]

As someone who was a Gamecube owner from 2003 on as my console that Generation I enjoyed this article and it brought back a lot of memories. I subscribed to Nintendo Power and then Nintendo had an official forum on their website for the community. It seemed like not a lot was coming out for their systems and I remember such a huge marketing push for stuff like Metroid Prime 2, Pikmin 2, and DK Jungle Beat. There were quite a few articles about that Fusion Tour as well.

They definitely did treat their fans like idiots. The GBA had no new main mario games and were all just re-releases of SNES games (that were remakes of NES games). The stuff that would come out? A Mario Party game every year, and tons of spin-offs like Mario Pinball, Pokemon Pinball, Mario Golf, and Mario Tennis.

Zelda Four Swords Adventures was coming out and one of the articles (or maybe reviewers?) said something along the lines of "To experience this game to its full extent you will need multiple Game Boy Advance systems and a GBA - GC link cable for each player, if your friends don't have them they aren't cool enough to be your friend anyways."

Then we had the NES classics line along with the GBA version of Mario 3 coming out, all to try and bring back classic Nintendo fans. The problem was that the games were way too expensive for what they were (20 bucks for a portable version of a NES game).

Also we had the E-Reader accessory which was hyped like like crazy across multiple NP issues, all to be dropped very quickly after its release. The cards were in my local Gamestop and EB games stores until mid 2006, they just sat there.

Gamecube had Melee and Star Fox Adventures in 2001, Sunshine and Metroid Prime in 2002, Wind Waker, Mario Kart, Air Ride, and Wario Ware in 2003, then 2004 had Paper Mario and Prime 2 (ended up being a huge disappointment). Now looking back that is a nice selection but the fact is that there were so many months in between major releases, it was crazy. Nintendo had a huge software drought where no major releases were coming out.

In 2005 we got Star Fox Assault and Zelda Twilight Princess was supposed to come out that year but got delayed again and again (had been in mags since 2004). Probably got delayed multiple times so they could make the Wii version and have that be ready at the same time as the GC one. Then they made the Wii version available first so their hardcore fans that had been waiting so long would buy the new console (I was one of them). They basically did not give a shit about their fans in those days.

Their advertising was terrible at the time. I remember one commercial was a guy in therapy saying how he was a hero and rescued a princess and it showed like 5 seconds of Wind Waker and said "Who Are You?". Then GB Micro and Nintendo DS (at launch) marketing was aimed towards young urban adults and didn't make sense.

Now there was an official forum on their site which had a great community and was interesting to read through, a great place for Nintendo fans. Around the time the Wii came out the entire Nintendo.com forum and "N-Sider Community" was closed, it would never receive a replacement.

 

[Matt]

Minor correction: Nintendo owned 49%, not 37%.

That's actually not true as far as I know, there was another partner involved in the company that owned ~12%.

 

[Canis lupus]

Surprising it took them until Gamecube to realize the industry reached out to new, older audiences. Its like they never noticed the success of the PS1 with cool titles such as Tekken, Tomb Raider, MGS, FF7, Resident Evil etc.

 

[Matt]

Actually Conker didn't sell badly. It's just that the game was in development for a long time, so they needed higher sales to make a profit than they'd have needed for many other N64 Rare games, and they didn't get that... but it didn't actually sell badly, it did okay.

Where did you get that from? CBFD sold TERRIBLY.

The Xbox remake may have done worse, I don't remember offhand, but it WAS just a remake. Had they stayed with Nintendo, I bet we'd have gotten a sequel instead of a remake... or maybe a DK64 sequel instead? That game was one of their best-selling N64 games, after all. I'm sure they'd eventually have done another one.

Ghoulies apparently was originally going to be a platformer where you could play as both characters, but they turned it into a beat 'em up during development. Perhaps had Rare stayed with Nintendo, the game might have stayed a platformer, and would have surely been a better game as a result... and sold better as well.


I don't understand why you think that Rare's poor sales on the Xbox and Xbox 360, consoles which didn't have much of any overlap with Rare's target audience, has anything to do with how vastly much better their games would have sold on Gamecube and Wii... because you're very wrong about that. Look at the chart of Rare game sales, they drop off badly after Rare left Nintendo because they abandoned their audience, and their audience did not follow them.

Also, once again, PDZ and Kameo would not have been 2005 games if Rare hadn't left Nintendo. They would have released probably years before that. Rare did have a tough stretch from 2001-2004, but that tough part would have been better had they not had to switch platforms three times (to GC then to Xbox then to X360)!


Many of Rare's games with Nintendo sold well. Saying that they would have continued to do so isn't a guess, it's a certain thing. The return on investment would come because Rare's games sold well in Nintendo's audience. They didn't on MS consoles not because all of the games were bad, but because they were targetting the wrong audience. The Conker remake, Kameo, Viva Pinata, and BK:N&B are quite good games, they just weren't right for that audience. They would unquestionably have sold better on Nintendo consoles -- and Nintendo would have spent less for them, too (200 million for Nintendo, versus what was it, 500 million for MS to buy Rare?). And without multiple added console transitions, Rare would have made more games in the '02 to '06 period, as well!

All of this is supposition. Rare missed all of their milestones with the GameCube, and Rare's final N64 games were almost all sales disappointments (Mickey, BT, CBFD, JFG, yes even Perfect Dark failed to meet expectations). It wasn't a "lack of audience" that killed Rare's sales, it was a lack of interest by gamers in a lot of what they were pushing. On top of that, Rare was suffering from poor management (with the Stampers quickly loosing interest) and a talent drain. These were all facts that Nintendo was dealing with.

$200+ million is a lot of money to make up, and to Nintendo, Rare simply didn't justify that expenditure.

 

[flak57]

Where did you get that from? CBFD sold TERRIBLY.

Wrong. It sold a million (on the 64). Also, the buyout was looming back in 2000, Rare wasn't under optimal working conditions back then. I remember reading an interview from one dev saying their wasn't progress on much of anything from the uncertainty during a certain time period. And their output with MS is pretty irrelevant; their dev culture was destroyed by them. There's no telling that wouldn't have happened owned by Nintendo too though, I've read that the Stampers were the ones that made sure the teams were left to do their thing without much interference.

Edit: Oh, and PD sold like 3 mil releasing months before the ps2. Tooie supposedly sold 3 million also.

 

[Matt]

Wrong. It sold a million (on the 64). Also, the buyout was looming back in 2000, Rare wasn't under optimal working conditions back then. I remember reading an interview from one dev saying their wasn't progress on much of anything from the uncertainty during a certain time period. And their output with MS is pretty irrelevant; their dev culture was destroyed by them. There's no telling that wouldn't have happened owned by Nintendo too though, I've read that the Stampers were the ones that made sure the teams were left to do their thing without much interference.

Edit: Oh, and PD sold like 3 mil releasing months before the ps2. Tooie supposedly sold 3 million also.

...where are you getting these numbers from?

 

[flak57]

...where are you getting these numbers from?

CBFD 1 million straight from Seavor himself -
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-11-22-the-man-who-made-conker-rares-most-adult-game

PD 3.2 million from Chris Tilson (ex rare dev)
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...killer-instinct-perfect-dark-interview?page=3

BT over 3 million from Mark Betteridge
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/193489/interviews/happy-birthday-banjo/

 

[KiNeSiS]

I think whether a Nintendo published game was developed in-house or not is irrelevant. EAD (i'm guessing you are only talking about EAD here, as people usually do in these cases) makes the kind of games they are good at.

Nintendo's old strategy of partnering with studios like Silicon Knights, Rare and Left Field for M rated games and sport sims.

I guess Nintendo's just given up on pursuing the older "core gamers" in the West.

They need to change their stance on that if they wish to remain relevant & sway along to the winds of change.
They shouldn't give up on the highest grossing segment of the industry they are in. Nintendo need exclusive original titles you can only play on their system like Zombie U but better & more frequent. Perfect Dark was so great on N64 they should have never gotten rid of RareWare. Eternal Darkness was unique & had an awesome story that stuck with me to this day, they should have locked down Silicon Night's. I don't want to see them Money Hat Platinum Games ala Bayonetta for example that move just pissed off fans that do not want to buy a system to continue playing a game they own on other platforms. It wouldn't exsist without Nintendo's funding it's said but I disagree, We wouldn't see it as soon but it would have come eventually. I think W101 is fine as a money hat since it is a new IP and Wii U is it's home. Back onto M rated games It would be relevant if Nintendo formed a new studio that focused more on the Mature Demographic that way they don't have the void they do now in terms of exclusive titles for that high earning segment of the market. They need to own these theoretical IP fully ala Halo for MS. Timed exclusives won't do it. They really need to change their hard headed narrow perspective on this. Amazon hired a Gears writer for a reason their cell phone based console isn't on my radar personally but they know what sells & will want to have something for all age groups.
Nintendo can not feel betrayed if they choose to be the kiddiepool training wheels when kids become teenagers & adults they want to swim in the deeper end or trade that bmx to ride ride that motorcycle. Trade that Mario Kart for that GTA. When you think about it Nintendo target their games for elementary school to Jr. High. When they move on to High School College Age they deem Nintendo games to childish although the games are for everyone it's obvious who they target. Nintendo is stuck in the mentality that video games are kids toys. So much like feeder leagues in sports Nintendo is creating life long gamers who end up upgrading to the big league consoles Playstation, XBox & or PC. They do it to themselves from the underpowered hardware relying on gimmicks to the software already discussed. So they shouldn't feel betrayed they have no one to blame for the stigma they are stuck with but themselves. Perception is key they could change it over time if they so choose but they refuse.

 

[Matt]

CBFD 1 million straight from Seavor himself -
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-11-22-the-man-who-made-conker-rares-most-adult-game

PD 3.2 million from Chris Tilson (ex rare dev)
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...killer-instinct-perfect-dark-interview?page=3

BT over 3 million from Mark Betteridge
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/193489/interviews/happy-birthday-banjo/

The PD number certainly seems about right (which, like I said, was a disappointment).

The other numbers though...considering CBFD was reported at ~50k back in 2001, that would have been impressive legs. And BT also seems high, even accounting for these being shipped numbers. But these guys would know...Obviously this topic deserves more investigation.

 

[amar212]

Surprising it took them until Gamecube to realize the industry reached out to new, older audiences. Its like they never noticed the success of the PS1 with cool titles such as Tekken, Tomb Raider, MGS, FF7, Resident Evil etc.

In my personal opinion, they still haven't fully realized it.

 

[FyreWulff]

The PD number certainly seems about right (which, like I said, was a disappointment).

The other numbers though...considering CBFD was reported at ~50k back in 2001, that would have been impressive legs. And BT also seems high, even accounting for these being shipped numbers. But these guys would know...Obviously this topic deserves more investigation.

Conker was the last AAA game for the N64. It was pretty much all N64 owners had to buy until the GameCube came out, so I imagine it benefitted a bit from that situation.

 

[Bluemercury]

NoA went bad as soon as that Howard Lincoln guy leaved. Wasnt he responsable for bringing Rare in the first place?

 

[industrian]

Someone, sadly I forget who, would later quote in one of those meetings that “Consumers don’t want fun anymore; they just want to kill people… in HD.”

And yet despite what that executive, and some ardent fanboys may think, "killing people in HD" (or not in HD) is fun. If it weren't fun, people wouldn't play it.

Nintendo are totally fucked from an organisational perspective. I'd like to pin it down on being a traditionalist Japanese corporate infrastructure combined with the large size of the organisation making it hard to make snap decisions and push things through, but it's beyond that now.

But they'll still soldier on with their bad decisions and make a bit of money while they're at it, along with having the bulletproof support of the “they’re going to buy anything we put out anyway” fans that they so gloriously adore.

 

[Celine]

CBFD 1 million straight from Seavor himself -
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-11-22-the-man-who-made-conker-rares-most-adult-game

PD 3.2 million from Chris Tilson (ex rare dev)
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...killer-instinct-perfect-dark-interview?page=3

BT over 3 million from Mark Betteridge
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/193489/interviews/happy-birthday-banjo/

Official shipment from Nintendo until 2003:

Perfect Dark N64 2.52M
Banjo-Tooie N64 1.49M
Conker N64 no shipmnent data since it was less than 1M

 

[flak57]

Official shipment from Nintendo until 2003:

Perfect Dark N64 2.52M
Banjo-Tooie N64 1.49M
Conker N64 no shipmnent data since it was less than 1M

Those look to be more in line with what I'm finding for sold numbers. It seems that Conker sold to consumers ~400k, PD ~1.3 million and Tooie ~700k (just the US though).

I'm not sure where those guys got their numbers. Worth noting these games were competing against the PS2 hype machine.

Edit: CBFD wasn't published by Nintendo though right? Would it even be on that list anyway?

 

[jcm]

That's actually not true as far as I know, there was another partner involved in the company that owned ~12%.

That's not what CNN reported:

CNN/Money has learned that Redmond, Wash.-based Microsoft has purchased Rare Ltd., the development house behind such titles as Banjo-Kazooie, GoldenEye and the upcoming Star Fox Adventures. Nintendo previously held a 49 percent interest in Rare, but announced it had sold that ownership position Friday.

 

[DragonSworne]

I believe Aonuma has grown contempt toward the Zelda series and fans as well. Actually, I believe a lot of the producers have with the games they are forced to work on over and over again.

It's no surprise a lot of Nintendo's problems, ignorance, and short sighted decisions have happened with Iwata as CEO.

 

[WillyFive]

Nintendo Gamecube era fuckups:

1) Console name

2) Console look

3) Console default/marketing color (Purple)

4) No DVD playback support

5) Lack of multi-plat mature titles (especially GTA)

6) Not pushing Rare to continue to make games like Goldeneye and Perfect Dark

"Gamecube" was a perfect name.

 

[jhmtehgamr20xx]

Nintendo Gamecube era fuckups:

1) Console name

2) Console look

3) Console default/marketing color (Purple)

4) No DVD playback support

5) Lack of multi-plat mature titles (especially GTA)

6) Not pushing Rare to continue to make games like Goldeneye and Perfect Dark

I never had a problem with "Gamecube". It sounds manlier than "Dreamcast"

 

[jhmtehgamr20xx]

And yet despite what that executive, and some ardent fanboys may think, "killing people in HD" (or not in HD) is fun. If it weren't fun, people wouldn't play it.

Nintendo are totally fucked from an organisational perspective. I'd like to pin it down on being a traditionalist Japanese corporate infrastructure combined with the large size of the organisation making it hard to make snap decisions and push things through, but it's beyond that now.

But they'll still soldier on with their bad decisions and make a bit of money while they're at it, along with having the bulletproof support of the “they’re going to buy anything we put out anyway” fans that they so gloriously adore.

TBF, I think it's more Nintendo's way of asking "why must you kill to have fun?". They're posing this as a moral argument. They aren't the best ones to do that; the answer would require a deep look into cultural/economic/political threads to the roots of society.....but I can somewhat see their point.

Only problem is, it just isn't Nintendo's place to worry about that; it's our own.

 

[kitsuneyo]

The Geist bit is pretty funny when you think about the fact that Reggie was talking up Conduit as a Halo killer just a few years later.

Reggie's job is purely to sell Nintendo product.

 

[D.Lo]

"Gamecube" was a perfect name.

I never had a problem with "Gamecube". It sounds manlier than "Dreamcast"

I agree, and also think that the console design was perfect (small, quiet, reliable, perfect).

And yes many console names are far worse, but we forget what they sounded like before they had history. Dreamcast sounds like a fishing rod. Playstation sounds like a 'recommended ages 0-3' Fisher-Price train set. The Mega Drive had no drive, the PC Engine was not a PC (and the TG16 was not 16 bit), Vita sounds like a health supplement, Wii sounds like a million jokes, and Wii U is actually the worst console name ever really, including the Fm Towns Marty.

BUT it was too generic. Microsoft sold basically the same number of Xboxes, but everyone had heard of it, and on more than one occasion I heard the Gamecube confused with the Xbox.

Wii turned out to be the best name ever, despite being far stupider than Gamecube, simply because it was catchy and 'fresh'.

 

[Sponge]

Hey, I said that, not that guy...

Whoops, looks like I quoted you wrong then. I'll fix that right now.

 

[A Black Falcon]

Official shipment from Nintendo until 2003:

Perfect Dark N64 2.52M
Banjo-Tooie N64 1.49M
Conker N64 no shipmnent data since it was less than 1M

Those look to be more in line with what I'm finding for sold numbers. It seems that Conker sold to consumers ~400k, PD ~1.3 million and Tooie ~700k (just the US though).

I'm not sure where those guys got their numbers. Worth noting these games were competing against the PS2 hype machine.

Yeah, as I said, Conker did okay... if it hadn't been a game that'd been in development for like three or four years. B-T and PD did sell less than B-K and GE007, but the N64 in general was in decline in 2000; the system was strongest in 1997-1999. PS2 hype was strangling everything in the market I think... the DC was fading fast at that time as well. Considering that, PD and B-T did fine.

Edit: CBFD wasn't published by Nintendo though right? Would it even be on that list anyway?

Nintendo basically stealth-published CBFD under Rare's name. It really was a Nintendo release, even though only Rare's name was on the box.

Where did you get that from? CBFD sold TERRIBLY.

It didn't. 400,000 in the US alone is not terrible.

All of this is supposition. Rare missed all of their milestones with the GameCube,

Once again, Rare's early struggles in that genre transition were nowhere near as bad as Nintendo's own struggles on the N64! Punishing Rare for doing something that Nintendo's Japanese divisions (which they did NOT sell off) did worse the previous generation is ridiculous. And they were getting over the problems by later '02, clearly.

and Rare's final N64 games were almost all sales disappointments (Mickey, BT, CBFD, JFG, yes even Perfect Dark failed to meet expectations). It wasn't a "lack of audience" that killed Rare's sales, it was a lack of interest by gamers in a lot of what they were pushing. On top of that, Rare was suffering from poor management (with the Stampers quickly loosing interest) and a talent drain. These were all facts that Nintendo was dealing with.

Look at the numbers above. You're very significantly exaggerating Rare's sales decline. Sure, their games from 2000-2001 didn't sell as well as GE007 or DK64, but PD and B-T still sold pretty well. It was disappointing that Mickey didn't sell better, because it really is a good game, but somehow the Disney license seems to have led people to ignore it... too bad. But no, considering where the N64 market was in 2000-2001, Rare's games did fine. Nothing to complain about there. Nintendo's games had similar declines; just like B-T and PD didn't sell nearly as well as B-K and GE, MM didn't sell nearly as well as OoT...

$200+ million is a lot of money to make up, and to Nintendo, Rare simply didn't justify that expenditure.

Take the games Rare released on Xbox and X360, turn GbtG and BK: N&B into platformers, don't cancel Donkey Kong Racing, release those all on Gamecube and early Wii (for the games released after the Wii did), and I wouldn't be surprised if that alone makes that money back.

 

[FreedomFighter]

Amazing article. It's this type of insight in to Nintendo I'd like to see more of.

 

[metalslimer]

I still think reggie is the scapegoat of nintendo when he has so little power. And when people get mad at him for his terrible pr, to be stuck in his position with japan fucking up so hard he has very little choice

 

[Green Wiggly]

It's amazing (and exasperating) that Nintendo never learns a damn thing from their past experiences.

 

[Neon_Icarus]

NoA went bad as soon as that Howard Lincoln guy leaved. Wasnt he responsable for bringing Rare in the first place?

Also, NoA probably had more autonomy back then because it was headed by Minoru Arakawa, who had the advantage of having direct family ties with Yamauchi (being married to his daughter).

It's crazy how low NoA has fallen since the N64 days. Nintendo actually had really good Western third party support back then. Even if stuff like Turok, Doom 64 and Starcraft 64 aren't remembered that fondly these days, they were a pretty big deal at the time.

 

[televator]

I guess it's more about perspective from a guy who was spearheading the marketing. Nintendo survived and even on NeoGAF itself, a lot of vocal Nintendo fans talk in admiration of the NGC software titles. It was a great system that was in a time where a company that was at the top had to settle for second best. A time when the industry was changing rapidly. Seems more apt in light of the Wii U and fun to look back on. How Reggie is really like backstage etc.

The ironic thing is that those great GC titles include a lot of violent titles that Nintendo was confused by. Metal Gear, Eternal Darkness, REmake, RE4, etc...

"But we're Nintendo." Haha... and SEGA was SEGA. Remember? That really is some astounding hubris to lack such basic ability for reflection.

 

[flak57]

Yeah, as I said, Conker did okay... if it hadn't been a game that'd been in development for like three or four years. B-T and PD did sell less than B-K and GE007, but the N64 in general was in decline in 2000; the system was strongest in 1997-1999. PS2 hype was strangling everything in the market I think... the DC was fading fast at that time as well. Considering that, PD and B-T did fine.

Nintendo basically stealth-published CBFD under Rare's name. It really was a Nintendo release, even though only Rare's name was on the box.

It didn't. 400,000 in the US alone is not terrible.


Once again, Rare's early struggles in that genre transition were nowhere near as bad as Nintendo's own struggles on the N64! Punishing Rare for doing something that Nintendo's Japanese divisions (which they did NOT sell off) did worse the previous generation is ridiculous. And they were getting over the problems by later '02, clearly.


Look at the numbers above. You're very significantly exaggerating Rare's sales decline. Sure, their games from 2000-2001 didn't sell as well as GE007 or DK64, but PD and B-T still sold pretty well. It was disappointing that Mickey didn't sell better, because it really is a good game, but somehow the Disney license seems to have led people to ignore it... too bad. But no, considering where the N64 market was in 2000-2001, Rare's games did fine. Nothing to complain about there. Nintendo's games had similar declines; just like B-T and PD didn't sell nearly as well as B-K and GE, MM didn't sell nearly as well as OoT...


Take the games Rare released on Xbox and X360, turn GbtG and BK: N&B into platformers, don't cancel Donkey Kong Racing, release those all on Gamecube and early Wii (for the games released after the Wii did), and I wouldn't be surprised if that alone makes that money back.

Interesting! But THQ published Conker in Europe right? I can't imagine it sold much there though.

But yeah, Tooie launched within a month after the monster of the PS2 (in the US), and Conker 4 months later. And if the 64 was rapidly dying in the US at that time, it had to be completely dead elsewhere in the world I'd assume. So those games really had the odds stacked against them. Also, if you wanted PD near launch and didn't own an expansion pak, it was a pretty damn expensive purchase. I dropped $90 for them back then.

Edit: Oh and if you're curious about the source for the numbers I posted, just google
N64 CONKER'S BAD FUR DAY 405,606
Someone seemed to have compiled stuff back from gaf or before gaf was gaf, and some place called NGGarchive.com, they are through Jan 2003. The way the numbers are presented sounds trustworthy and I believe in the same format GAF used to have all the detailed numbers posted, but I can't be 100% sure.

2nd Edit: Has PS1 numbers too, again though I can't be 100% that they are accurate -
http://www.armchairarcade.com/aamain/forum_viewtopic.php?2.16655

 

[A Black Falcon]

Interesting! But THQ published Conker in Europe right? I can't imagine it sold much there though.

Yeah, that's true. No idea how it sold there though.

But yeah, Tooie launched within a month after the monster of the PS2 (in the US), and Conker 4 months later. And if the 64 was rapidly dying in the US at that time, it had to be completely dead elsewhere in the world I'd assume. So those games really had the odds stacked against them. Also, if you wanted PD near launch and didn't own an expansion pak, it was a pretty damn expensive purchase. I dropped $90 for them back then.

No, the N64 wasn't completely dead anywhere in 2000... but it was definitely fading. It still was in good enough shape for the top-selling games to sell in the millions, but it was definitely a steep decline from the previous three years. And yeah, I'm sure the decline was similar elsewhere, proportionate to the size of the market there (remembering that almost 2/3rds of N64s sold in the Americas).

Edit: Oh and if you're curious about the source for the numbers I posted, just google
N64 CONKER'S BAD FUR DAY 405,606
Someone seemed to have compiled stuff back from gaf or before gaf was gaf, and some place called NGGarchive.com, they are through Jan 2003. The way the numbers are presented sounds trustworthy and I believe in the same format GAF used to have all the detailed numbers posted, but I can't be 100% sure.

2nd Edit: Has PS1 numbers too, again though I can't be 100% that they are accurate -
http://www.armchairarcade.com/aamain/forum_viewtopic.php?2.16655

If those are NPD numbers, they're likely accurate, as far as NPD numbers from then were accurate of course.

 

[jhmtehgamr20xx]

I agree, and also think that the console design was perfect (small, quiet, reliable, perfect).

And yes many console names are far worse, but we forget what they sounded like before they had history. Dreamcast sounds like a fishing rod. Playstation sounds like a 'recommended ages 0-3' Fisher-Price train set. The Mega Drive had no drive, the PC Engine was not a PC (and the TG16 was not 16 bit), Vita sounds like a health supplement, Wii sounds like a million jokes, and Wii U is actually the worst console name ever really, including the Fm Towns Marty.

BUT it was too generic. Microsoft sold basically the same number of Xboxes, but everyone had heard of it, and on more than one occasion I heard the Gamecube confused with the Xbox.

Wii turned out to be the best name ever, despite being far stupider than Gamecube, simply because it was catchy and 'fresh'.

Lol, I never quite thought of it that way; can't look at the PS1 the same way again xD.

I think Saturn may've been the coolest name for a console I can think of atm. I mean, it's named after a fucking planet, and it ain't no Pluto.

 

[NewGame]

“Consumers don’t want fun anymore; they just want to kill people… in HD."

Games like Quake, Doom, Mortal Kombat and the shoot bangers of our generation all seem to have a poor effect on Nintendo games. I guess this is the root of the 'kiddy' argument. Except even a child will play COD.

I dunno Nintendo. Release new IP with gore porn gun sword?

 

[Version 3.0]

2nd Edit: Has PS1 numbers too, again though I can't be 100% that they are accurate -
http://www.armchairarcade.com/aamain/forum_viewtopic.php?2.16655

These numbers look pretty good, except that they might be from years earlier than that 2005 post. Going by the hardware figures (and you have to dig all the bundles out of there), the N64 numbers look pretty good for end-of-life: they add up to 17 million, and Nintendo's end-of-life shipment data (for "The Americas", not US) was 20 million. So that seems about right.

But the PS1 hardware numbers, once you dig up all the bundles as well, adds up to 28 million. That seems very, very low - Sony's reports show that they had shipped 40 million Playstation 1 units to "USA" (on their reports, but given the reported regions were "Japan", "USA", and "Europe", perhaps it really means NA) by 2003.

Given that the N64 was pretty much off shelves by 2002, but the PS1 continued to sell for years, I'd say this data is probably from some time earlier, but is otherwise accurate.

On the other hand, Sony's PS1/PS2 data has never jived particularly well with sales trackers. Back then, they reported manufactured units as "shipped" and shipped units as "sold", but even with channel stuffing, there were always large discrepancies.

edit: these pages:

http://www.gamepilgrimage.com/N64ussales.htm

http://www.gamepilgrimage.com/Ps1ussales.htm

have the same data, and claim it covers 1995-2003.

 

[WillyFive]

I dunno Nintendo. Release new IP with gore porn gun sword?

They already did, but it came out only in Japan.

 

[SegaShack]

Official shipment from Nintendo until 2003:

Perfect Dark N64 2.52M
Banjo-Tooie N64 1.49M
Conker N64 no shipmnent data since it was less than 1M

According to Chris Seavor (developer and voice of Conker) in one of his Bad Fur Day w/commentary videos (or maybe it was an interview I read recently) he said it sold a million copies which was good but not great when compared to other Rare titles.

 

[pa22word]

"Gamecube" was a perfect name.

I never had a problem with "Gamecube". It sounds manlier than "Dreamcast"

Revisionist history if I ever saw it, lol.

The running joke of the time back then was how "kiddy" and "lame" that "purple lunchbox" was. The name "Gamecube" just played into the joke and people just laughed at it more. The system's perception absolutely was a driving factor in why it sold so poorly.

 

[Melchiah]

“In meetings it was clear [Nintendo of Japan] could not understand why the brand had fallen so far here in North America or comprehend why the mature titles, and more powerful consoles, were so successful. Nintendo represented fun, in the purest sense of the word, they always have. When you play Nintendo games you laugh, you yell, you smile, and you jump around. You have FUN. Someone, sadly I forget who, would later quote in one of those meetings that “Consumers don’t want fun anymore; they just want to kill people… in HD.”

How can they be so stubborn and complacent to not realize the gaming culture had changed when the gamers grew up? I personally detest the idea, that only colorful family friendly games would be truly fun to play. Nothing could be further from the truth. Not to mention, that even the games on C64 and Amiga were mostly about killing people, be it shooting soldiers or spaceships, slashing warriors, or jumping onto creatures.

 

[Castcoder]

You would think after Goldeneye 007 becoming a juggernaut on the N64 and completely dominating the market with FPS; Nintendo should have learned. Instead they sold Rare and the rest is history.

No, RARE jumped ship because Nintendo was not a good publisher to negotiate with, as a third party.

 

[Resilient]

That Smash bit about EVO is such bullshit. Oh no. 125,000 players will see this game. What about the millions of others that bought it? WTH do you think they were doing with the game and its sequel/initial title?

 

[Kokonoe]

Wow...

For some reason I kind of assumed this from them throughout all of these years, but you never really know what they are thinking. Eye opening.

 

[Can Crusher]

The whole "consumers don't want fun anymore" is some of the most asinine shit I've ever read regarding industry opinions. Grow the fuck up.

 

[Mael]

And yet despite what that executive, and some ardent fanboys may think, "killing people in HD" (or not in HD) is fun. If it weren't fun, people wouldn't play it.

Tha tMalstrom guy put it well too, the guys at Nintendo are sleeping at the wheels!
WTF did they think that stuffs like Golden Eye, Perfect Dark, Doom (on SNES even!), the Starfoxs or Killer Instinct games ever sold to begin with?
It's because killing people can be fun too!
Heck StarFox is based on an interplanetary WAR!
What the hell is Metroid if not killing?
Even Mario you can't spend a level without killing some foes somewhere in between!
And this is the guys that pushed Star Wars shooters to launch their Gamecube games!
They even pushed Eternal Darkness, why do they think that killing is NOT fun?

Nothing has even changed, people like killing in their games, Mortal Kombat taught them nothing

 

[Fudgepuppy]

Hey Geist was pretty good.

 

[Square2015]

Guys Nintendo wasn't dethroned during the n64 psx era at least software sales wise!

Nintendo has always had the top selling games every generation. The best Sony could sell was 3m of a title while SM64, Goldeneye, and MK64 broke 5m+ (USA only of course), then next gen GTAIII actually outsold all of Nintendo's next-gen titles, followed by Halo, then Vice city, Halo2, etc THAT'S what NoA was so upset about, that'd never happened before, Nintendo was dethroned!

"Consumers don’t want fun anymore; they just want to kill people… in HD.”

My sentiments back in 2002 also, I'm there with ya Nintendo.