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News The Unreal 5 Demo on the PS5 Used Software Ray-Tracing Similar to ReShade’s Ray-Tracing Shader (Ray Traced GI)

DoctaThompson

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Who debunked what? Tim and I say that Lumen and Nanite will be fully supported on next gen consoles and PC. And that UE5 games will run on current gen devices scaled down with tools to use traditional tecniques.


You said this.


Epic also said UE5 projects would be scalable to different hardware, but current gen PC, consoles and mobile wouldn't support these new high end features like Lumen.


Completely wrong. Current gen PC will be getting all of the features, and possibly even more. You never showed any factual data to go against what Tim or the Chinese dev's have said about it running on current PC's. How else do you think the demo was created in the first place? From a Nintendo Switch? Dreamcast? It wasn't the ps5 either. It was created on a current gen PC in case you didn't know
 

yurinka

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You said this.






Completely wrong. Current gen PC will be getting all of the features, and possibly even more. You never showed any factual data to go against what Tim or the Chinese dev's have said about it running on current PC's. How else do you think the demo was created in the first place? From a Nintendo Switch? Dreamcast? It wasn't the ps5 either. It was created on a current gen PC in case you didn't know
Tim says high end PCs, like next gen consoles, will support Lumens and Nanite. So in PCs with more or less similar specs will support them.

But also mentions UE5 has features/tools to replace Lumens and Nanite with traditional rendering and lighting techniques for current gen hardware (which obviously includes PC more or less similar specs than current gen console hardware).

I'm posting the quote of the CEO of Epic Games and creator of Unreal Engine, a genious of the game engines, saying exactly that. And you guys are telling me I'm wrong and that he's lying/someone debunked it without providing any source.

How do you know that the creator of Unreal Engine is lying? What is your source?


He even joked about Comodore64 not being supported.

Ok, now I understand why you don't understand my posts. It's because you are not reading them. I referenced the thread twice.

Hope that highling it in this way you understand it. I won't repeat it again:



So you won't get subpixel level model and texture detail or global illumination and that crazy streaming in Switch, mobile, XBO S, PS4 or similar PCs because current gen hardware doesn't have enough horsepower and streaming speed using a HDD or similar. For current gen hardware UE5 will scale the stuff down to have a traditional streaming and loading screens, rendering and lighting with normals, LOD, lightmaps, etc. and highly reduced models and textures.

In next gen consoles and similar PCs you'll get fully featured Lumens and Nanite instead (looking good and scaled to each hardware) because their horsepower and fast SSD makes it possible.
 
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Vroadstar

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You never showed any factual data to go against what Tim or the Chinese dev's have said about it running on current PC's. [/ISPOILER]
So this is your source of the epic game dev who debunked it. You like to call out people spreading FUD yet here you are spreading FUD yourself. Talk about the pot calling kettle black.:messenger_tears_of_joy:
 
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DoctaThompson

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So this is your source of the epic game dev who debunked it. You like to call out people spreading FUD yet here you are spreading FUD yourself. Talk about the pot calling kettle black.:messenger_tears_of_joy:
Maybe read the context of what was said first? He said the demo wouldn't run on current PC's. His own quote debunked his initial statement. And that quote was from Tim himself, saying it would run on PC. One of the devs from the demo, mentioned the 2070, which already debunks "can't run on current PC's".

The engine would scale down to current consoles, phones, etc.

You liked to call me out just now, but didn't even know what the conversation included. Don't be so quick to pull the trigger next time. Reading is fundamental, and prevents unneeded posts in the thread.
 

Duckhuntdog

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I haven't followed this thread in detail, so please allow me some leeway. In no way is Epic going to create a new engine that doesn't support upcoming hardware as well as current hardware; be it PC, Console/Switch, and mobile. The entire point of UE<version number> is to be the one-stop engine for developers. They want to sell (ha!) you on this engine as having you covered for whatever platform you want to deploy your game on.

Of course as you move down the power spec, features will be pared back, heck they may even recommend the use of UE4 (which isn't going away anytime soon), but I would not be surprised if some of the features such as lumen work to some small (mobile/Switch) or in large part (current PCs), right now.
 
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DoctaThompson

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He's got no source, he is obviously talking out of his ass




It's been posted several times in this site. Talks about the PC version running on a laptop, and also talks about not needing a next gen SSD, current ones are just fine. These are the guys who worked on the engine first hand. So yes, DEBUNKED.
 

Vroadstar

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It's been posted several times in this site. Talks about the PC version running on a laptop, and also talks about not needing a next gen SSD, current ones are just fine. These are the guys who worked on the engine first hand. So yes, DEBUNKED.
I suggest to get some fresh air and take the L you are making a fool out of yourself already.

It didn't age well 😬
 

DoctaThompson

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I suggest to get some fresh air and take the L you are making a fool out of yourself already.
Sweeny didn't know what they were talking about when people were tweeting him that day. You haven't kept up with the other thread, I suggest you go and read through it. You obviously didn't even watch the video I posted. Check it out and let me know what you think about the SSD talk, or how both Chinese and American devs from the initial showing, mentioned how it runs awesome on PC.


Video 125 minutes-128 minutes:

epic engineer: "Is it necessary to SSD, of course not!"

Asked: "About I / O speed, I heard that the PS5 SSD can reach 8G per second, where does this data come from? , Is it true? "

Epic:" I don't know "the
questioner snickered:" I heard rumors outside "

epic:" This should be asked by Sony ... it shouldn't be asked at our event "

Epic:"? is not necessarily be so fast in order to show the demo we have just seen it in fact you carefully analyze ........ so do not need so demanding SSD environments (laughs) to "Run this demo"

Straight from the guys mouth who worked on the engine with his own hands. I think i would much rather listen to him over some random online poster.


Unless you can dispute any of the facts presented, your are free to hold that L as long as you'd like. If you have nothing to prove otherwise, I will simply not respond to you, as you are derailing the thread at this point.
 
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Im just curious to see what first partys are gonna use in ray tracing, shadows doesnt take that much performance in cod even tho, it doesnt make much diference, halo infinite trailers also show excellent texture work, curious to see how it looks in series X
 

sinnergy

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Doesn’t Reshade GI have nasty draw in , I saw that in a Reshade Crysis DF video, In the next room you saw all kinds of stuff being drawn, is this still the case in the UE5 demo? Or have the solved this for screen space?
 

Lethal01

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Doesn’t Reshade GI have nasty draw in , I saw that in a Reshade Crysis DF video, In the next room you saw all kinds of stuff being drawn, is this still the case in the UE5 demo? Or have the solved this for screen space?
Saying it's like reshades is a gross over-exaggeration, It uses screenspace tracing combined with voxel tracing etc so it has data even if objects are out of view.

But yes there will probably be many ways it fails, it's still no path tracer
 
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sinnergy

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Saying it's like reshades is a gross over-exaggeration, It uses screenspace tracing combined with voxel tracing etc so it has data even if objects are out of view.

But yes there will probably be many ways it fails, it's still no path tracer
Okay thanks, So it’s a nice step between path tracing to have. If you don’t have the performance to do path tracing .
 
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Rikkori

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I'd be curious how many people will be able to tell the difference in real-time.



It happens in the demo. You just have to slow the video down by 50% to notice it.
It always depends on viewing conditions. I sit like ~6 feet from a 55" 4K TV and it's immediately obvious. Plus the issues get accentuated by the temporal accumulation. There's just no way to hide it. Sadly it looks like AA is the one area which isn't seeing a positive quality jump this coming gen. Maybe on PC they'll adopt some RTAA as a high end feature but I'm not holding my breath. I'm fully expecting to keep seeing all the annoying "checkerboardy" patterns so common to TAA.
 

rnlval

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Read this thread from Tim Sweeney, it's pretty clear. As I said Nanite and Lumen will be for next gen consoles and PCs, and UE5 will hafe tools to scale it down to run the games on current gen platorms (including PCs) with traditional rendering and lighting:

"The Nanite and Lumen tech powering it will be fully supported on both PS5 and Xbox Series X and will be awesome on both. And high end PCs.

And with features for scaling the content down to run on current generation platforms using traditional rendering and lighting techniques. Commodore 64 will not be supported."


Then he gets asked 'why PS5 and not a PC? Was it due to SSD perf? ' and replies 'Systems integration and whole-system performance. Bringing in data from high-bandwidth storage into video memory in its native format with hardware decompression is very efficient.'

PC has the hardware for improved storage performance.
 

yurinka

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PC has the hardware for improved storage performance.
Yes, PC also has PCIE4 M.2 SSDs, and both CPUs and GPUs more powerful than the ones in PS5. There are very powerful laptops too. As I and Tim said, Lumens and Nanite will run fully featured there. Same goes with Series X, so the SSD (or well, the I/O system) won't need to be as fast as in PS5 (we know it will be fully featured in Series X too).

But in low end PCs and mobile won't run like in the demo, he said they will use traditional lighting and rendering there instead.
 
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Exodia

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That article is misleading. What you should all know is that Lumen Already exists in UE4 in the form of different features.
Going all the way back to 4.8 (2015). Lumen is a combination of currently existing tech (with improvements ofcourse) in UE4 called Distance Field GI, HeightField GI and SSGI. The only difference is now they brought back SVOGI from the dead and mixed it in.

The nextgen systems are just now powerfully enough for them to refocus on it and mixed them into one system (lumen). But the features already exist in the engine other than SVOGI. Development just wasn't focused on them till 2 years ago. Fortnight money changed everything. Epic games went on a hiring spree for the rendering team.

Heightfield GI


This demo uses heightfield GI only (already in engine since 2015)

Distance Field GI (already in engine since 2015)

SSGI (already in engine since 2019)

The killed SVOGI because PS4/XO wasn't powerful enough. Now its being resurrected (removed from engine in 2012 before release)
 
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rnlval

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Yes, PC also has PCIE4 M.2 SSDs, and both CPUs and GPUs more powerful than the ones in PS5. There are very powerful laptops too. As I and Tim said, Lumens and Nanite will run fully featured there. Same goes with Series X, so the SSD (or well, the I/O system) won't need to be as fast as in PS5 (we know it will be fully featured in Series X too).

But in low end PCs and mobile won't run like in the demo, he said they will use traditional lighting and rendering there instead.
Most laptops have PCIe 3.0 even with mobile Ryzen "Zen 2" 4000 series APUs.

Desktop Ryzen "Zen 2" and B550/X570 has PCIe 4.0. Some 17 inch DTR laptops has desktop Ryzen Zen 2.

You introduced the sales debate into a technical debate.
 
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rnlval

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yurinka

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Most laptops have PCIe 3.0 even with mobile Ryzen "Zen 2" 4000 series APUs.

Desktop Ryzen "Zen 2" and B550/X570 has PCIe 4.0. Some 17 inch DTR laptops has desktop Ryzen Zen 2.
When I said "There are very powerful laptops too" in the post you just quoted I meant these ones.

You introduced the sales debate into a technical debate.
I don't engage with sales debate.
What do you mean? Where did I talk about sales?
 
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rnlval

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Tim says high end PCs, like next gen consoles, will support Lumens and Nanite. So in PCs with more or less similar specs will support them.

But also mentions UE5 has features/tools to replace Lumens and Nanite with traditional rendering and lighting techniques for current gen hardware (which obviously includes PC more or less similar specs than current gen console hardware).

I'm posting the quote of the CEO of Epic Games and creator of Unreal Engine, a genious of the game engines, saying exactly that. And you guys are telling me I'm wrong and that he's lying/someone debunked it without providing any source.

How do you know that the creator of Unreal Engine is lying? What is your source?


Ok, now I understand why you don't understand my posts. It's because you are not reading them. I referenced the thread twice.

Hope that highling it in this way you understand it. I won't repeat it again:



So you won't get subpixel level model and texture detail or global illumination and that crazy streaming in Switch, mobile, XBO S, PS4 or similar PCs because current gen hardware doesn't have enough horsepower and streaming speed using a HDD or similar. For current gen hardware UE5 will scale the stuff down to have a traditional streaming and loading screens, rendering and lighting with normals, LOD, lightmaps, etc. and highly reduced models and textures.

In next gen consoles and similar PCs you'll get fully featured Lumens and Nanite instead (looking good and scaled to each hardware) because their horsepower and fast SSD makes it possible.
Mesh shaders can be done on compute shaders.
 

bohrdom

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Calling UE5's ray tracing approach similar to Reshade's is quite misleading. I think the only commonality is that both don't use HW acceleration for raytracing.

Reshade's ray tracing uses a depth and color buffer. It has no idea where the lights are in the scene and doesn't have a clue about the geometry not rendered on the screen. For real ray tracing to work you need both these and more. UE5 RT def has access to all this data. Now there are diff ways to get around this, I think NVIDIA's approach is technically more accurate but UE5's approximation looks amazing as well.
 

Dontero

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Yeah after reading it is a bit complicated compared to ray tracing but "it just works".
So basically we now have proper GI without ray tracing cost.

That leaves only reflections for raytracing. Everything else has been pretty much done.
And Crytek already has shown working raytracing like reflections.

Either way they might just killed raytracing outright for gaming with this demo. GI after materials was the most important thing to raytracing that gave edge over restirization. Without having better materials and GI there isn't really reason to use raytracing.

I really hope whatever crytek devs made is something easily adaptible and could be combined with those measures.
 
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Rikkori

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Help a third world boi out.
What is "a wash"
It means there's no significant difference between the two.

Yeah after reading it is a bit complicated compared to ray tracing but "it just works".
So basically we now have proper GI without ray tracing cost.

That leaves only reflections for raytracing. Everything else has been pretty much done.
And Crytek already has shown working raytracing like reflections.

Either way they might just killed raytracing outright for gaming with this demo. GI after materials was the most important thing to raytracing that gave edge over restirization. Without having better materials and GI there isn't really reason to use raytracing.

I really hope whatever crytek devs made is something easily adaptible and could be combined with those measures.
I'm not sure that's true at all. Remember, RT has a huge advantage when combining multiple effects in terms of performance. Rasterisation is more performant for single effects compared to RT but once you add in multiple techniques then the performance costs become prohibitive (not to mention, way glitchier). In a way it's like PC vs consoles. PCs have high upfront costs but you can spend a lot less over time, while consoles are cheaper upfront but charge you in more ways over time to recoup the money (ps+ etc). RT has a high initial cost but then using the RT for other effects is very cheap, so if you can afford the upfront cost then you're gucci.

Is Just for gi or for every light source?
For example a flashlight in the dark
It definitely works for flashlight in the dark.
 

Nothing Unusual

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Yeah but months ago software ray tracing was a blasphemy ,i also Remember a thread arguing about hardware based and hardware accelerated wording
As some user Say a mix Is perfect...i don't know if it's possibile....
Again the demo itself doesn't LOOK impressive in comparison to old tech demos. I don't care what's going on under the hood but if I don't notice a difference then why should I care? More to my point is that it's being used to hype PS5 simply because it's shown running on one. I'd rather see a true visual upgrade that is noticeable if I was going to spend another $500 for a console but that's just me. No doubt the PS5 will offer better 4k experiences or higher frame rates and I'm sure plenty of people are into that but I'd rather have games that look like the UE4 apartment demo even if it was at 720p.

Either way I'll just stick to my PC and plain stock 1080 GPU if this is all there is to software RT.
 
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pawel86ck

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That article is misleading. What you should all know is that Lumen Already exists in UE4 in the form of different features.
Going all the way back to 4.8 (2015). Lumen is a combination of currently existing tech (with improvements ofcourse) in UE4 called Distance Field GI, HeightField GI and SSGI. The only difference is now they brought back SVOGI from the dead and mixed it in.

The nextgen systems are just now powerfully enough for them to refocus on it and mixed them into one system (lumen). But the features already exist in the engine other than SVOGI. Development just wasn't focused on them till 2 years ago. Fortnight money changed everything. Epic games went on a hiring spree for the rendering team.

Heightfield GI


This demo uses heightfield GI only (already in engine since 2015)

Distance Field GI (already in engine since 2015)

SSGI (already in engine since 2019)

The killed SVOGI because PS4/XO wasn't powerful enough. Now its being resurrected (removed from engine in 2012 before release)
They have really butchered UE4 because of consoles, but I wonder if something like GTX 780 would run it? It was the best GPU back then.
 

yurinka

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They have really butchered UE4 because of consoles, but I wonder if something like GTX 780 would run it? It was the best GPU back then.
Games didn't implement these things because the hardware wasn't powerful enough and there wasn't enough market/userbase. Now as next gen hardware (and equivalent PCs) go mainstream they'll start using it because there will be enough devices with powerul enough hardware to use features like these ones.

Until now it made more sense for stuff like architecture renders, CGs/movies/animation/ads and so on. The new console and 'common' PCs will be able to handle this and more stuff, so we'll start to see it in many games. But outside next gen 1st party engines, we won't see it in launch windows games, we'll have to wait until 2nd generation of games because the full release of UE5 will be ready until late 2021 and not sure if non-Epic UE devs will be able to use it before in a good enough state to start implementing it on games as of now.
 

Lethal01

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Again the demo itself doesn't LOOK impressive in comparison to old tech demos. I don't care what's going on under the hood but if I don't notice a difference then why should I care? More to my point is that it's being used to hype PS5 simply because it's shown running on one. I'd rather see a true visual upgrade that is noticeable if I was going to spend another $500 for a console but that's just me. No doubt the PS5 will offer better 4k experiences or higher frame rates and I'm sure plenty of people are into that but I'd rather have games that look like the UE4 apartment demo even if it was at 720p.

Either way I'll just stick to my PC and plain stock 1080 GPU if this is all there is to software RT.
It looks like the biggest visual jump we have had since the crysis days, all thanks to nanite. Crazy to me you don't find it noticeable but I suppose there are people who think Control looks the same without Raytracing. It leaves all the old unreal tech demos in the dust.
 
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Lady Bernkastel

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The CUs contain a new specialized unit called the intersection engine which can calculate the intersection of rays with boxes and triangles to use the intersection engine. first you build what is called an acceleration structure, its data in RAM that contains all of your geometry. There's a specific set of formats you can use, their variations on the same BVH concept. Then in your shader program you use a new instruction that asks the intersection engine to check array against the BVH. While the intersection engine is processing the requested ray triangle or ray box intersections, the shaders are free to do other work. Having said that the ray tracing instruction is pretty memory intensive, so it's a good mix with logic heavy code. There's of course no need to use ray tracing, PS4 graphics engines will run just fine on PlayStation 5 but it presents an opportunity for those interested.
 
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Fictive

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The RTGI plugin for Reshade is decent, but I’m curious to see how well hardware-based RT performs.